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Heal Yourself?


Sykotik_Hunter

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So me and a couple people from my guild had quite the debate about this subject. The question posed was "Should a healing-capable DPSer heal himself should the need arise?". I am talking in strictly an end-game PvE setting. My greatest opposition says that a DPS should only DPS, however I say he absolutely should heal himself if he needs to. IMO losing a DPS because he refused to pop a 1.5-3 second heal doesn't need to be in my Ops. I am a tank and I don't DPS too much, so I am posing this question here. What do you think?
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So me and a couple people from my guild had quite the debate about this subject. The question posed was "Should a healing-capable DPSer heal himself should the need arise?". I am talking in strictly an end-game PvE setting. My greatest opposition says that a DPS should only DPS, however I say he absolutely should heal himself if he needs to. IMO losing a DPS because he refused to pop a 1.5-3 second heal doesn't need to be in my Ops. I am a tank and I don't DPS too much, so I am posing this question here. What do you think?

 

My best friend is a dps/sorcerer and she does HM FP and there are times she will heal herself and she has also been asked to heal the healer if the need arises.

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If the DPS need to heal themselves you need better healers. It's like asking the healers to do damage. Sure if there is nothing for a DPS to do due to phase change or mechanics then you would expect them to at least top themselves off if they aren't all >80% but otherwise it's a healer problem.

 

It also might be a DPS issue if too much damage is going out. More DPS = less time in heal intensive phases = quicker boss fight = less heals needed.

 

This is coming from both a healer and a DPS.

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I can't speak to Sage DPS, but in heavy damage fights like Raptus (especially in 16 man), you should be liberally dosing the raid with Kolto Bomb. You should also be prepared to use Tech Override+Medical Probe for a quick off heal. Sages should imo make an effort to keep themselves bubbled (the few times I've done TC on my sorc, any time I get the purple circle I immediately bubble myself).

 

 

Not only that but off cleanses can be invaluable.

 

DPS classes with heals are hard to get the most out of their heals by design, but they should definitely be able to get out the heals when they need to.

 

That being said, 90% of the time they should be focusing on DPSing.

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If the DPS need to heal themselves you need better healers. It's like asking the healers to do damage. Sure if there is nothing for a DPS to do due to phase change or mechanics then you would expect them to at least top themselves off if they aren't all >80% but otherwise it's a healer problem.

 

It also might be a DPS issue if too much damage is going out. More DPS = less time in heal intensive phases = quicker boss fight = less heals needed.

 

This is coming from both a healer and a DPS.

 

So you would have the raid wipe only because "it's the healers fault"? Yes the role of a dps is to deliver damage, but if you could prevent a wipe with a few off-heal and you didn't then you are a bad dps.

I regulalry off-dps on my healer and off-heal on my dps if needed. There's nothing wrong with that.

Edited by cs_zoltan
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So you would have the raid wipe only because "it's the healers fault"? Yes the role of a dps is to deliver damage, but if you could prevent a wipe with a few off-heal and you didn't then you are a bad dps.

I regulalry off-dps on my healer and off-heal on my dps if needed. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

If you regularly need to off-heal as a DPS then there is definitely something wrong with your healing situation. It's up to the player to make a call as to whether it's needed, but like I said before, a lot of healing problems can be solved with more DPS.

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If you regularly need to off-heal as a DPS then there is definitely something wrong with your healing situation. It's up to the player to make a call as to whether it's needed, but like I said before, a lot of healing problems can be solved with more DPS.

 

What i said is: I regulalry off-dps on my healer. And off-heal on my dps if needed.

Considering that dps check on the current content (DP/DF HM) is piss easy but healing is rather tight on a few bosses, off-healing is more helpful than more dps imo.

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If you regularly need to off-heal as a DPS then there is definitely something wrong with your healing situation. It's up to the player to make a call as to whether it's needed, but like I said before, a lot of healing problems can be solved with more DPS.

 

No.

 

Raid Encounters generally have a diversity. You don't need always the same constant healing. Nor do you need the same constant dps (unless you are "raiding" worldbosses).

 

When there's little incoming damage, healers should dps, when there's a lot of incoming damage dps should off-heal.

 

When dps or healers say that they don't use some of the abilitys they got while leveling, they have simply a big room for improvements.

 

Also: Incoming damage and required dps are more or less independant.

Edited by THoK-Zeus
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We had a small little talk about this the other night as well, and the prevailing thought was that anything that could lessen the burden on the healers is a good thing. So my question in this discussion is what about talented self heals for Gunslingers and heals coming from a stance for Sentinels? Is the loss of 100+ dps for Gunslingers be expected for the 1% self heal while in cover? Should there be at least one Watchman when there are Sentinels in the group?
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I think it depends on the situation and heal.

 

Sages should use force mend on CD if they need it, since it is a pretty big heal that costs only a GCD. They should also bubble themselves as a defensive when necessary. Your example of OP IX during the color phases when DPS are all taking damage and healers are unable to cast due to movement, and a random large damage spike is about to occur, is a perfect example of when your sage SHOULD be using force mend and bubble to protect themselves. If they are refusing to even do that much, kick them and never look back.

 

On the other hand, asking them to spam their casted heals, benevolence and deliverance, should be an option of last resort. Their energy cost is very high for the amount of healing they do. This is also true for asking them to use force armor on anyone other than themselves.

 

For all classes, they should be prepared to spam heals for a short time if they can prevent a wipe, but not as a matter of routine because they will just be wasting energy that would be better spent doing damage.

 

Lastly, DPS that can self-cleanse should absolutely do it every time they can and it's needed. Also, if a battle rez is called for, a DPS should be the one to do it if possible since the healers are probably quite busy already.

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We had a small little talk about this the other night as well, and the prevailing thought was that anything that could lessen the burden on the healers is a good thing. So my question in this discussion is what about talented self heals for Gunslingers and heals coming from a stance for Sentinels? Is the loss of 100+ dps for Gunslingers be expected for the 1% self heal while in cover? Should there be at least one Watchman when there are Sentinels in the group?

 

For the case of gunslingers, the 1% self heal is pretty trivial. It works out to 120-130 HPS, which IME usually results in about 65 EHPS. It just isn't an important factor. However our other choice, extra energy, isn't really necessary for any spec, and because the DF FR relic is currently bugged, putting one point in there is a DPS *increase* due to the extra chances for a proc.

 

In the case of sentinels, ours generally picks whatever spec most matches the fight, so focus for high AoE damage, combat for high burst, or watchman for sustained DPS (boosted again by the FR relic bug). But the raid-wide heals from watchman are definitely noticeable on certain fights, and our healers will occasionally request him to switch.

 

And although you didn't mention them, balance sages also get respectable passive self healing, about 3x what gunslingers achieve. With them it is actually enough that it might be the determining factor between specs if your healers are having trouble keeping up.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Dead DPS is no DPS.

 

In all games I've played, my #1 concern was group preservation. In Athiss, we had a BAD tank and on the last boss, he got the flames twice and I prepped to switch to Force technique. In my trooper, I'm always throwing kolto bombs, my sorc is always bubbling and self healing etc

 

Now, can a DPS off heal if a healer DCs midway through an op boss fight? No. can they off heal midway through a FP boss fight? Yes.

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  • 2 weeks later...
for me the best way to dps is staying alive, self cleance, self heals are needed if they make the difference between life and death, otherwise, a dps, specially if focused, is more efficient dpsing than struggling through a 1.5 that become 3 seconds with pushback heal.
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  • 2 weeks later...

All depends on the fight/phase really.

 

Some fights you can take it really easy and have some dps off heal, but relying on that too much is a weakness. Healers should be able to cover all of the raid wide damage themselves, if your group needs dps to off heal then you need to work with your healers because they are doing something wrong.

 

There is nothing wrong with dps using defensives that dont cost a GCD to mitigate or heal damage taken, but as for sacrificing GCD's that could be used as damage for measly heals, is a waste and a detriment. The sorc/sage self heal is almost an exception, considering its effectiveness to its cost (being free and an instant cast rather than a costly 1.5-3 second channel/cast).

 

Having cleared most content in the game I can tell you if your healers need help with any phase or fight then your group doesnt stand a chance at downing more difficult fights that stress BOTH healers and dps at the same time.

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  • 2 months later...

Dead dps = ZERO damage.

 

If you can save yourself by popping a med pack, self heal, bubble, etc, why not do it? It'll cost you maybe 1-2 GCD's, but will keep you up for the rest of the fight.

 

Whenever I dps on a healing capable class, I pop heals off left and right. Again, this applies to your dps team mates:

 

Dead dps = ZERO damage.

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I would call a player who doesn't use his cooldowns (medpacs and other defensive stuff) really stupid, yea it's the healers job to keep you alive but there is nothing you can do about bad healers while in a bossfight. If you realize that your healers are bad you just replace them afterwards, but during the bossfight you need to do all you can to keep yourself alive, few fights demands 100% effective GCD, but a majority demands all DPS to be alive.

 

However that don't mean that you should run around healing stuff unless it's outside your GCD, use your healing abilities and cooldowns when you need them, not just willy-nilly, you' are a DPS, not an offhealer.

Edited by RikuvonDrake
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I don't see why a DPS who has some heal abilities can't pop a heal or two on themselves during a fight. When my guild runs DF/DP/TFB/SV/TC I play as my madness sorc. I am straight DPS BUT when I notice my healers are healing the tanks and I can pop a heal or two on myself to make their job a little easier I do. There is nothing wrong with it.
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If the DPS need to heal themselves you need better healers. It's like asking the healers to do damage. Sure if there is nothing for a DPS to do due to phase change or mechanics then you would expect them to at least top themselves off if they aren't all >80% but otherwise it's a healer problem.
It could also mean you need a better tank or dps. If the entire raid is getting cleave before a heavy AoE phase because tank can't hold aggro or dps don't know what a dump is, then that isn't the healer's fault. Casting blame without a superfical understanding of the facts isn't the way to go. Personally I am insulted when DPS cast a heal on them-self when I'm on my healer, but I have seen times when it was needed because other dps was standing in fire, the tank had the boss pointed at the raid or dps decided to LoS the healer.

 

So while I agree, likely need a better healer, just should not go off on healer without looking at all the facts because even the best healers can't heal through stupid. :p

Edited by mikebevo
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My "Main" is a Lethality Operative using a more defencive build that abuses Kolto Quickening and Shield Probe, and whenever i get to about 60% HP ill start using Kolto Quickening so that my dad as a Merc healer has less issues with healing me so that he can stay on the Tank.
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