Ion Railgun

[JadedJasper]

So hang on. Someone is rolling around a sat and flies between wings, then crosses from bottom to top OR goes over the bottom. Explain how you turn this into first a concussion lock, and then a torp lock?

Yeah, I didn't explain it well. Sometimes you'll see someone weave around a satellite like that, though often not for long as it's a weak defense against blasters and gunships. While you can just line up to blaster them out of the pattern most pilots will just change pattern, and that's not where you really want to be in a Pike anyway.

 

If you're quick you can instead boost to the side, then lock them with a Concussion as they're coming towards you. Which is difficult for them to avoid as you can see above and below the satellite, and they have to be on the other side to hide, but they're not quite sure where you are.

 

If they have you targeted they'll just boost or barrel roll towards you, and tough luck for you! Usually they don't though, and they'll Barrel Roll away into space rather than eat Concussion -- where you can then immediately start locking them with Protons or shooting them with blasters. Not uncommonly they'll panic since they thought they were safe and either Barrel Roll before the entire lock, or run into something.

Edited January 23, 2014 by JadedJasper

[Armonddd]

Sabotage Probe has 100% Shield Piercing, though the damage is light.

 

You don't... you don't use sab probe for the damage. You use sab probe because when it lands, the target has absolutely no way to prevent you from getting in behind them and lighting them up. Thus, sab probe is essentially a kill, unless your teammates have unusually good situational awareness and can harass the guy until the probe wears off.

 

Kuat A: you have the south superstructure directly adjacent to the satellite, and the north superstructure within sprinting distance

Kuat B: free cover everywhere

Kuat C: there is a mesa due north of the satellite, and several mining drills around it

Lost A: multiple asteroids within sprinting distance of the satellite

Lost B: this is the most open area, and admittedly has little cover. Running here means you basically have to disengage.

Kuat C: free cover everywhere

 

I dunno, I feel like the cover in Kuat A and C disengages me from the fight, though admittedly I've used the mining lasers to break LoS from time to time. And on my server, gunships tend to like spawning at A, which means they have a great bead on you as you're heading for an asteroid. But like I said, it's a moot point because three seconds of distortion field is enough to kill a gunship.

 

I don't think your other points are invalid, but they're not really on topic, so I'm skipping them.

[JadedJasper]

You don't... you don't use sab probe for the damage. You use sab probe because when it lands, the target has absolutely no way to prevent you from getting in behind them and lighting them up. Thus, sab probe is essentially a kill, unless your teammates have unusually good situational awareness and can harass the guy until the probe wears off.

Pardon my pedantry. I was just pointing out that it does actually pierce shields, despite your mistaken claim to the contrary.

[Armonddd]

Pardon my pedantry. I was just pointing out that it does actually pierce shields, despite your mistaken claim to the contrary.

 

Oh, ok. That's fair. You are officially pardoned for pedantry.

[Flearos]

Alright, well I just wanted to say that after playing for 6 hours tonight of GSF, I'm tired. I will say one thing about the gunship that is HUGELY OP. The Ion Railgun. One hit from it drains both firepower AND engine power, in addition to making you crawl for 10 seconds? Nope. I use the slug and there is nothing wrong with that kind of a kill, but when there is one ion cannon that boosts, scopes, quick dings and drains, then launches torpedos (when you have no energy and cant use either barrel roll your shield), it's really lame. That is a completely cheap crippling move.

 

While i totally agree that ion cannon will need nerfed, The minimum charge on the railgun (on the pts right now if im not mistaken) may solve this but we will need to see it on a larger scale first.

 

I absolutely agree its no fun to lose shields, engine power, and have a movement debuff too, o and its AOE too... I think 2 of 4 might be more appropriate but we will have to see the new charge up mechanic in play first.

[Armonddd]

While i totally agree that ion cannon will need nerfed, The minimum charge on the railgun (on the pts right now if im not mistaken) may solve this but we will need to see it on a larger scale first.

 

I absolutely agree its no fun to lose shields, engine power, and have a movement debuff too, o and its AOE too... I think 2 of 4 might be more appropriate but we will have to see the new charge up mechanic in play first.

 

You also lose weapon power, because, you know, that's fair.

 

No, I think even one of those will always be a problem - just because it's so easy to do from a range that's essentially uncounterable by the target, and the effect is so disproportionately large compared to the amount of skill and effort involved with getting the same results on literally any other ship in the game.

[Verain]

You are just overstating it. There's a lot of things that each ship has that are way easier to get on that ship than others. There's no core problem with the ion cannon. A single hit doesn't drain you of anything. The tappytap has been the issue all along.

[Nemarus]

You are just overstating it. There's a lot of things that each ship has that are way easier to get on that ship than others. There's no core problem with the ion cannon. A single hit doesn't drain you of anything. The tappytap has been the issue all along.

 

A single tap takes out very few shields, but 1) triggers the ION cannon AOE, 2) drains 50 points engine and lasers, 3) applies its full recharge or slow debuff.

[Suzina]

If you get hit by ion cannon and lose all of your energy, pop distortion shield (you did buy it to 6s, right?). That buys you enough time to wait out the lockout and regen just enough energy to barrel roll. Use barrel roll to get the hell out of dodge, then reengage when you are in a more favorable position.

 

If distortion field is on CD, or you haven't maxed it yet, then get behind cover and again, regen enough energy for a barrel roll.

 

If you don't have distortion field and you don't have cover and you don't have an engine energy reserve, you are probably screwed. .

 

Pretty much this.

Ships waiting for their boosters to recharge before moving out of AOE range are getting hit with a 6 second debuff every full Ion charge (which is less than 6 seconds). All you need is a second ship to mop them up.

 

It's something you can counter, but it not only requires you to burn cooldowns or see the enemy in advance, and not every ship type will be able to counter. Bombers for example can't possibly do anything but line of sight an Ion gunship, and Ion gunships and splash a line-of-sighter with AOE since the AOE does not respect line of sight.

 

I'm in an RP GSF guild right now that requires we charge at least 75% for Ion railgun so as not to "love tap" for debuff refreshing... even still, the Ion gun is quite strong.

[Kuciwalker]

From how much people have complained about OP bombers from the beta, I'm affording them zero sympathy in this.

[Armonddd]

You are just overstating it. There's a lot of things that each ship has that are way easier to get on that ship than others. There's no core problem with the ion cannon. A single hit doesn't drain you of anything. The tappytap has been the issue all along.

 

18 weapon and engine power is far from "not anything". That's nearly a fifth my total reserves.

 

From how much people have complained about OP bombers from the beta, I'm affording them zero sympathy in this.

 

The problem isn't - in my mind - whether or not the gunship is overpowered, underpowered, or balanced. The problem is whether or not they're fun. And they're not.

 

It's boring to sit in one place and snipe helpless targets. It's frustrating to fly to the best of your ability and get sniped off.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Armonddd

[Kuciwalker]

All ships are unfun when played against someone much better or worse than you. I can tell you that against other skilled players, gunship dogfighting (either gunship vs gunship or gunship vs scout/strike) is very interesting and tactical.

[Armonddd]

All ships are unfun when played against someone much better or worse than you. I can tell you that against other skilled players, gunship dogfighting (either gunship vs gunship or gunship vs scout/strike) is very interesting and tactical.

 

Gunship dogfighting, sure. All forms of dogfighting are interesting and tactical, I completely agree. The problem is that gunships don't dogfight - they snipe.

 

And no, I have fun dogfighting the best guys on my server (who are significantly better than me) because it's a real challenge, but one I can overcome if I improve. What, pray tell, am I supposed to do to improve my gameplay against ion spam on the point? Give up the point and lose the match?

[Verain]

A single tap takes out very few shields, but 1) triggers the ION cannon AOE, 2) drains 50 points engine and lasers, 3) applies its full recharge or slow debuff.

 

1) Yes ofc. 2)- It drains 18 or w/e not 50. 3)- Yes ofc.

[Verain]

18 weapon and engine power is far from "not anything". That's nearly a fifth my total reserves.

 

And you deserved to lose it. That's what ion does. You stood in the ion aoe, you lost 18. You shouldn't lose like 100 though.

 

The problem isn't - in my mind - whether or not the gunship is overpowered, underpowered, or balanced. The problem is whether or not they're fun. And they're not.

 

I pretty much just play gunships. I like my strike a decent amount too, and the scouts are ok. But the gunships are a blast. I'm sorry you don't have fun with them. Maybe they aren't for you?

Edited January 24, 2014 by Verain

[Kuciwalker]

Gunship dogfighting, sure. All forms of dogfighting are interesting and tactical, I completely agree. The problem is that gunships don't dogfight - they snipe.

 

I was using the term broadly.

 

And no, I have fun dogfighting the best guys on my server (who are significantly better than me) because it's a real challenge, but one I can overcome if I improve. What, pray tell, am I supposed to do to improve my gameplay against ion spam on the point? Give up the point and lose the match?

 

You keep the gunship LOSed and/or you kill it. All you need is situational awareness.

[NotThatOne]

Gunship dogfighting, sure. All forms of dogfighting are interesting and tactical, I completely agree. The problem is that gunships don't dogfight - they snipe.

 

And no, I have fun dogfighting the best guys on my server (who are significantly better than me) because it's a real challenge, but one I can overcome if I improve. What, pray tell, am I supposed to do to improve my gameplay against ion spam on the point? Give up the point and lose the match?

 

This isn't always the case, I've been forced into dogfighting, and chosen to dogfight on occasion in my Gunship,as several unfortunate and unprepared Enemy pilots have discovered, this very night. The Gunship, well, at least mine, has some nasty short range teeth too.

 

Sometime going guns is quicker and more effective than backing off for a railgun shot. A lot of pilots, new and experienced, are simply shocked to death, by the fact that the Gunship just rolled in on them and opened up with the laser cannons.

[Kuciwalker]

^ this, a thousand times this. About a third of my kills are with burst laser.

[-Shadowfist-]

A lot of pilots, new and experienced, are simply shocked to death, by the fact that the Gunship just rolled in on them and opened up with the laser cannons.

 

Still waiting.

[Armonddd]

And you deserved to lose it. That's what ion does. You stood in the ion aoe, you lost 18. You shouldn't lose like 100 though.

 

I didn't deserve to lose anything. I got hit by an AoE I could do nothing to prevent while doing my job (standing on the cap point preventing others from getting it). I was essentially punished for doing my job perfectly... and not because my ship was shot, but because anything in the area was shot. It's just flat out dumb.

 

Area of effect damage has always been problematic in games that revolve around holding a certain area of the map.

 

I pretty much just play gunships. I like my strike a decent amount too, and the scouts are ok. But the gunships are a blast. I'm sorry you don't have fun with them. Maybe they aren't for you?

 

They're really not. Gunships require significantly less skill to play at a competent level (I won't talk about a high level of performance, because I'm not there on mine) with significantly less engagement of the enemy. It's essentially easy wins, which are much less valuable.

 

I was using the term broadly.

 

Then you were using it wrong. Sniping and dogfighting have different definitions.

 

You keep the gunship LOSed and/or you kill it. All you need is situational awareness.

 

Pray tell, how am I supposed to know there's a gunship looking at me when I'm leading two other guys in a merry chase around the point? How am I supposed to react?

 

This isn't always the case, I've been forced into dogfighting, and chosen to dogfight on occasion in my Gunship,as several unfortunate and unprepared Enemy pilots have discovered, this very night. The Gunship, well, at least mine, has some nasty short range teeth too.

 

You're right, I was using hyperbole when I shouldn't have. I think it's safe to say, though, that the gunship is far more effective when sniping, and causes far more balance issues while sniping.

[Kuciwalker]

Then you were using it wrong. Sniping and dogfighting have different definitions.

 

Are you even listening to yourself? In what world does this sound like an argument, rather than the mirror of the fallacy of equivocation?

 

You also seem to have some idea that gunships just sit there and snipe. No, sniping involves shooting, repositioning, shooting, and then frequently a complicated series of operations to get yourself into position for just long enough to get off a shot at the scout trying to kill you.

 

I should know, I spent an entire match last night dueling Rumina's scout in my gunship, and at no point was it just "oh I'm just going to sit here plinking away without a care in the world".

 

Now, I'll grant you against terrible opponents who fly at you one at a time in a straight line, moving isn't necessary. But I could kill the same people in a stationary scout with distortion/burst lasers anyway.

 

Pray tell, how am I supposed to know there's a gunship looking at me when I'm leading two other guys in a merry chase around the point? How am I supposed to react?

 

By paying attention to the map, regularly checking the usual entry points to your zone, and regularly tab targeting through enemies. All things that I do constantly, even while engaged in melee with other fighters.

 

And finally, as I enumerated on just the other page, you should always have a plan for what to do if an enemy ship - gunship or no! - does show up. The first shot isn't going to kill you (with rare exceptions that should go away after 2.6).

[Armonddd]

Are you even listening to yourself? In what world does this sound like an argument, rather than the mirror of the fallacy of equivocation?

 

Perhaps I'm oversimplifying things. To clarify, I don't have a problem with gunships when they're going evasive or trying to set up shots - that part requires skill. I have a problem with gunships taking those shots for massive effect with essentially no counter possible once they release the button.

 

By paying attention to the map, regularly checking the usual entry points to your zone, and regularly tab targeting through enemies. All things that I do constantly, even while engaged in melee with other fighters.

 

And finally, as I enumerated on just the other page, you should always have a plan for what to do if an enemy ship - gunship or no! - does show up. The first shot isn't going to kill you (with rare exceptions that should go away after 2.6).

 

The first shot of a gunship is essentially a kill shot. Either it actually kills you on its own (because lol slugs one-shotting scouts), or it kills you because you don't have 80%+ hull, or it sets you up for death from the gunship's friends.

 

I agree that you can do all of these things if you're an exceptionally skilled player. I like to think of myself as skilled, but not exceptionally so. Certainly the majority of the playerbase doesn't have the presence of mind or the experience to do these things. The problem is that there's massive punishment from the gunship if you don't do all these things - and there's a significant discrepancy in the amount of skill required of the two players in question.

[Kuciwalker]

Perhaps I'm oversimplifying things. To clarify, I don't have a problem with gunships when they're going evasive or trying to set up shots - that part requires skill. I have a problem with gunships taking those shots for massive effect with essentially no counter possible once they release the button.

 

There is a counter. I counter it all the time. There are multiple counters, many of which I enumerated earlier in the thread.

 

The first shot of a gunship is essentially a kill shot. Either it actually kills you on its own (because lol slugs one-shotting scouts), or it kills you because you don't have 80%+ hull, or it sets you up for death from the gunship's friends.

 

No, it isn't, per above.

 

I agree that you can do all of these things if you're an exceptionally skilled player. I like to think of myself as skilled, but not exceptionally so. Certainly the majority of the playerbase doesn't have the presence of mind or the experience to do these things. The problem is that there's massive punishment from the gunship if you don't do all these things - and there's a significant discrepancy in the amount of skill required of the two players in question.

 

I don't find it appreciably more difficult to kill bad pilots on my scout or strike fighter, so I think your skill discrepancy is overstated.

 

And the things I described are things you should be doing even in the absence of gunships, really. Situational awareness is key.