So tired of people who don't know how to price things on the GTN

[Machshoot]

I know that undercutting is part of MMO's, I've been playing them in one form or another for the past 6 years. That being said, TOR has to be one of the worse that I've ever played in terms of how dumb people are when it comes to economics. Take for example the release of a new cartel pack, like the Dogfighter/Wingman one. As soon as the packs unbind, everyone just spams the GTN as fast as they can to unload these products. In doing that, the gap between the lowest price and the highest price for a single item is absolutely comical. People spam refresh on a page to see if they have been undercut, and they in turn undercut, and round and round we go until a mount drops from 750k to 40k in the span of a couple hours. People may say " well the market balances out and items get sold for what they're truly worth ", but that's not really true most of the time. On my server, there are currently only about 9 tauntauns(the new one), and they started out this morning at 7 million, they're now being sold for 1.5 million. That's not really a fair price for an item that is quite rare. I opened up 4 hypercrates worth of packs, and only got one tauntaun, wouldn't you say that is rare? I am not entirely being selfish here, I am just stating that in general people need to slow down and price things properly. You end up screwing yourself over by undercutting so much that there's no point in even putting the item up for auction.

 

I ended up keeping a lot of my new merchandise in my cargoholds until things calm down and the market is less flooded with everyone dumping loot as fast as they can for as little profit as possible. Things do even out a bit with time, with less people buying the packs in the weeks to come. So please people, just think before you spam the GTN, it will help you in the long run.

[jankiel]

That's not really a fair price for an item that is quite rare.

Economy is not about being fair.

[Hambunctious]

Me too. It drives me nuts to see 66 armoring/mods/enh/hilts/barrels, and color crystals that require rare tier 9 purple components selling as low as 29k, or less, each. It's not even worth my time to craft anything to sell when the materials go for more than the item. Edited January 17, 2014 by Hambunctious

[Shoraan]

Solution:

1. Buy Tauntaun for 1.5 million

2. Wait a few weeks

3. Sell for more than 1.5 million

4. Spend the profit on something else

 

The only problem with this Cartel Pack speculation thing is finding the right items to speculate with - just like in the real world.

[AlexDougherty]

Prices vary for new items because people don't know how much they will sell for!!

 

Some will go for a high price and reduce it, others look at the various mounts and go for a figure they can be sure will sell, others wait for the prices to settle and then sell, others just take a random stab in the dark. None of these methods is flawless, all of them CAN work, but usually don't quite.

 

Personally, I feel this is a representation that the GTN pricing is working. You can remove the system error factor but not the Human error factor (unless you remove the Human factor completely)

[Merwanor]

An issue with most MMOs is the fact that players decide the price of items, it always makes for a stupid and unbalanced game economy except maybe in Eve Online. White and Black dye colors goes for about 2 million credits, how stupid is that?

 

Devs should have set a GTN price for all items.

[AlexDougherty]

Devs should have set a GTN price for all items.

 

No, if you want the fixed price sell to a vendor, they will give you what the devs think it's worth (a pittance).

[Hebruixe]

Relax, there are evolutionary principles at work in every economy. Noobs are quickly weeded out. And if they're not weeded out they're not being noobs.

 

If people are selling valuables too cheaply, they'll get bought out quickly and have no valuables left to sell. If they're charging too much they'll never make a profit and they'll never be able to compete with you for money.

 

There's really no reason to be mad at anyone for "not knowing how the gtn works," because if it's true then they are the only ones being hurt by their ignorance.

 

If you're losing profits somehow, then YOU are the noob who doesn't understand the swtor economy. No offense.

[Pscyon]

I love undercutting profiteers. I'm doing the customer a favour and I don't have to wait freaking days for my credits. I love it even more when I'm the one buying (which is usually the case) so I can get my collections and whatnot done without having to go earn 5 fortunes first.

 

The ones that aren't selling because they insist on having high prices are the ones that do not know how to price things. Hooray for heavy undercutting! Long may it continue.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Pscyon

[Laurreth]

I don't sell anything on GTN. Generally, I craft for me and my guild, and destroy cartel equipment that neither of those want. If that stuff could be sold to NPCs for, say, 1 credit, I'd do that instead.

[Sibenice]

I love undercutting profiteers. I'm doing the customer a favour and I don't have to wait freaking days for my credits. I love it even more when I'm the one buying (which is usually the case) so I can get my collections and whatnot done without having to go earn 5 fortunes first.

 

The ones that aren't selling because they insist on having high prices are the ones that do not know how to price things. Hooray for heavy undercutting! Long may it continue.

 

Price gouging hurts the market just as much as over-pricing. All sellers are also buyers (unless they're broke/stupid) so dropping the prices on the smaller and less rare items just puts the bigger ones more out of reach. For a healthy market you need a balance and you don't get that by ridiculous under-cutting.

 

And yes, it's nice to find those items you want for cheap but when something drops from 50k to 27 over the span of about 10 posts, that's just ridiculous. And no, that's not an exaggeration, unfortunately.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Sibenice

[discbox]

It works like a free market works.

[Hambunctious]

It works like a free market works.

 

Not really. There are laws in the US against predatory pricing.

[TooltipTim]

I love the free market. It means I can buy rare items when they're cheap and sell them dear later on.

[JPryde]

Not really. There are laws in the US against predatory pricing.

Then it is not a free market

 

I don't see the problem the OP is having. You do not loose anything, you got no running cost, you got no workers to pay... you got not the lightest fix-cost that you need to cover with your sales, so you are not hurt by others undercutting your prices. If someone sells for below the production cost, then it is their loss. If they keep doing it, they are performing a charity, but they still cannot drive you out of business, as their action does not cost you a thing.

 

Undercutting your supposed "correct" prices just stops your potential revenue... and stops you from getting even richer by just playing the market... and I do not see anything wrong with that. If you cannot make as much money, as you would like, then stop selling.

[JattaGin]

I remember that one evening when suddenly dozens of Ubrikkian speeders were put on the GTN within minutes. The standard price back then was usually between 35.000 and 50.000.

 

That evening, people undercut each other within seconds. At the end, the price dropped to 5.000. I bought about 20 speeders for that price.

 

Then I waited a few weeks until there were only the usual 3 to 4 Ubrikkians up for sale for about 50.000. I put mine up for a few thousand credits less and sold them all within few days.

 

Easy profit. Why should I complain about that? This is actually my main income in this game for about 1.5 years now.

 

What I find much more annoying is the people who OVERprice things. Like 7 millions for a tauntaun? Personally, I find that outrageous. No matter how rare. Put it in comparision: If the rarest item available, the Czerka crate-o-matic, costs about 20 to 30 millions, then 7 millions is way overpriced for a tauntaun which comes in CM packs.

 

Also, if someone has a certain rare schematic up for 150.000 credits for 4 months and doesn't sell it, then I don't understand why he suddenly sells it for 350.000, a few months later for 450.000 and lately for 800.000. It's been nearly one year that this guy tries to sell his schematic. I mean, come on. Put it up for 100.000 and I'll buy it. I'm waiting ever since that he makes the smart move.

[NRieh]

If you wanna keep your own prices - buy out undercutters and resell with 100++%. If you're too poor to do that...well, your problem, not theirs.

 

Raise money, unite in merchants-crafters guild, be INVENTIVE instead of whining at the forum. Latter is useful in RL as well.

 

MMO market follows simple rules, it's much more primitive, than real one, but they have much in common. Supply and demand makes the price. Keep you eye on latter, find ways to control the former.

Edited January 17, 2014 by NRieh

[Canavet]

If you wanna keep your own prices - buy out undercutters and resell with 100++%. If you're too poor to do that...well, your problem, not theirs.

 

I totally agree... I love it when someone sells a hilt that I know is worth 50K + for 15k. I'll jump all over those and jack the price up to what I know it's worth. But I'm also not stupid enough to play their little game of under cutting myself to their extreme. I'm in this for the long haul. And that's why I always have 5 or 6 mil creds to play with and finance my other toons.

 

I will under cut but only to a point. My other favorite tactic is picking up items that are so low.... the vendor will give me more.

 

Free creds for me!!

[Rabenschwinge]

It works like a free market works.

 

It's not a free market. A free market would imply that any item from any server and faction can be free traded amongst the player. It is the limited scope that makes it possible to influence the price by controling the supply of a given item type and consequently there is no natural balance of supply and demand anymore. This "speculation" many people suggest is really a manipulation of a kind that just wouldn't be possible to that degree on NYSE (though similar things happen in the real world, too, of course).

 

I find the market a lot more interesting in EVE Online. You can try such things, but if you do it on Jita - simply controling the price disregarding the supply and demand development by controling the supply - you'll likely end up sitting on the goods you bought. You can speculate, sure, but then you better be sure that the price changes in future independent of your own actions.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Rabenschwinge

[Malastare]

So tired of people who are so tired of people who don't know how to price things on the GTN.

 

First: Welcome to economics.

 

This is a classic application of the Supply and Demand mechanic, specifically the case where supply suddenly spikes over the demand. The result of that --in both the game and the real world-- is that prices dive as sellers undercut each other in order to attract the attention of the small number of buyers. This can be further amplified when the seller doesn't have (or doesn't acknowledge) a cost of producing the item, and when the seller is motivated to get cash now. Both of those are in place on the GTN right now.

 

Second: People who ignore this dynamic are actually the ones who don't know how to price things on the GTN.

 

Unless you have just started playing the game and have zero understanding of economics, the way these prices work shouldn't be a shock to anyone. I hate to give out this apparently mystical knowledge, but every time a new pack comes out, there is a standard pattern of pricing over time:

 

1. 18 hours after release, the first items appear on the GTN. Prices vary wildly as players guess wildly at value. (Supply is low, Demand is not established yet)
   
2. Within hours, the lowest priced items are bought up, leaving the higher prices. New listings cluster around these high prices. On average, GTN prices are overly high, but impatient, wealthy players are willing to pay. (Supply is moderate, Demand is moderate, but aggressive)
   
3. Over the next day, the bulk of the people who bought packs on the release day and want to sell items, dump them onto the market. Customers have plenty of purchase options, and almost invariably pick the cheapest listing. In order to complete sales, sellers set prices lower than other listings. (Supply is high, demand is moderate)
   
4. Over the next few days, people who have the desire and cash to buy the items gradually come to the GTN. Sellers start re-listing their items closer to the current low prices. Some players buy the lowest items and re-list them closer to the majority of the prices. This stabilizes the prices. (Supply is high, demand is moderate)
   
5. A week later, most people who urgently want the items have bought them. Most people selling them have managed to get a sale at some price. Remaining sellers find situations where they are the only person selling an item. They set a price higher than normal, fishing for customers who need the item. (Supply is moderate, demand is low)
   
6. A month later, the majority of items are sold. The number of sellers is small, and for most items that were actually in demand, there are only a few listings. Some players will still want the item, and will sometimes be willing to pay high prices to get it. (Supply is low, demand is low)
   

 

If you're a seller, use your brain a bit and pick when you want to sell. If you're impatient and want to sell as soon as possible, then you're in that group of oversupply sellers who drives the price into the floor. If you want the most money for your items, wait a few days to see where the price stabilizes. Or wait a month and hope you can find a late-buyer. In the mean time, don't complain about sellers who are just following a standard pattern. The reason you find that annoying is because you simply don't understand the economics of the situation.

[Sportiva]

Price gouging hurts the market just as much as over-pricing. All sellers are also buyers (unless they're broke/stupid) so dropping the prices on the smaller and less rare items just puts the bigger ones more out of reach. For a healthy market you need a balance and you don't get that by ridiculous under-cutting.

 

And yes, it's nice to find those items you want for cheap but when something drops from 50k to 27 over the span of about 10 posts, that's just ridiculous. And no, that's not an exaggeration, unfortunately.

 

Umm ... price gouging IS defined as "over-pricing"

 

It scares me when threads like these pop up and show the level of ignorance on how markets and economies work. Of course it does help to explain this.

[LogicalPremise]

I love these sort of discussions.

 

First, I'm going to buy some cartel packs when they first come out. Once I get what I want from them, everything else goes on sale. I don't care if I undercut or underprice -- I want it gone.

 

My underpricing should be a boon to those who wish to stock up and sell when the items are rare. Yet they complain because they can't sell an item for 2 million that should really go for 500k , boo hoo.

 

I stopped caring what other people thought about my pricing methods when right after reading one of these screeds, I went online and saw the poster's toon undercutting his competition by 50% -- at the time time he was complaining about such practices.

[DataBeaver]

It's not a free market. A free market would imply that any item from any server and faction can be free traded amongst the player.

Is there some regulatory agency that forces fixed relationships between servers? No? Then it is a free market, just a different free market for each server.

 

Now, players are able to transfer items between servers with character transfers, but since those are limited by both cost and time, I doubt that's a significant factor.

It is the limited scope that makes it possible to influence the price by controling the supply of a given item type and consequently there is no natural balance of supply and demand anymore.

That's called a monopoly and it's exactly what happens in a free market if one individual has enough resources to take control. An argument can be made for the resulting monopoly-controlled market no longer being free, but the original condition most definitely is.

This "speculation" many people suggest is really a manipulation of a kind that just wouldn't be possible to that degree on NYSE (though similar things happen in the real world, too, of course).

Most people trade on NYSE because they want to make money with the stocks. As such, the "items" being traded have an intrinsic value measured in the same units as the currency used to buy them, namely the company's ability to make a profit. It would certainly be possible for someone like Google or Microsoft to use their financial resources to force arbitrary prices on a smaller company's stocks, but it would be a stupid move.

 

On the other hand, MMORPG items usually have a very low intrinsic value measured in the in-game currency, namely their vendor price. People buy them for different reasons than stocks on NYSE; the item may provide good stats to them, or its visual appearance may be desirable. In the real world a company might buy out another because they want to get rid of a potential competitor; in that case they could pay more than the market value of the target company.

 

If you look at cryptocurrency markets, you'll see exactly the same kind of manipulation happening. Certain rich individuals are able to make the exchange rate go up ("pump") by buying all the available currency. This will usually cause others to buy it too, because the rate is going up. After reaching the desired profit level, the rich individual suddenly sells ("dumps") massive amounts of the currency at a profit. Those who bought in just before the dump are screwed.

I find the market a lot more interesting in EVE Online. You can try such things, but if you do it on Jita - simply controling the price disregarding the supply and demand development by - you'll likely end up sitting on the goods you bought. You can speculate, sure, but then you better be sure that the price changes in future independent of your own actions.

That's partially because EVE Online has way better market tools than any other MMORPG. It's been a while since I played it, but IIRC you can see at least a month's worth of actually occurred trade history ingame, and there's sure to be sites that extend beyond what the game provides. It'll take a long time for people to forget what the price used to be. In SW:TOR, you have to actively monitor the market yourself if you want to find out where the price is going.

 

EVE Online's market is also vastly larger. Each sector has its own market, and there's a limited range in which you can make trades. If you're trying to control the price of a particular item, even in such a central hub as Jita, chances are someone will go buy it at another system further away and feed it to you. An entire corporation dedicated to such activities could possibly do it across the entire game if they were rich enough.

[TravelersWay]

I love undercutting profiteers. I'm doing the customer a favour and I don't have to wait freaking days for my credits. I love it even more when I'm the one buying (which is usually the case) so I can get my collections and whatnot done without having to go earn 5 fortunes first.

 

The ones that aren't selling because they insist on having high prices are the ones that do not know how to price things. Hooray for heavy undercutting! Long may it continue.

 

Absolutely agreed. I will always undercut and sell for whatever the hell I feel like selling an item for - even if it's just a single, solitary credit (and selling for a loss at that point). Let me enunciate - This ... is ... a ... game. I am, and should be free to sell whatever completely useless computerized bunch of pixels at whatever price I want. Get over it. If it ruins your fun in the game, too bad. Life isn't fair. There has been and will always be things in games that also ruin my parts of my fun too, so I guess it all evens out in the end.

[AlexDougherty]

It's not a free market. A free market would imply that any item from any server and faction can be free traded amongst the player. It is the limited scope that makes it possible to influence the price by controling the supply of a given item type and consequently there is no natural balance of supply and demand anymore.

 

Where did you get that definition for a free market, because it's wrong.

 

A Free Market is a market were trade restrictions have been relaxed, and taxs are kept to a minimum. People may apply other definitions, but they are wrong.

 

The GTN has no restrictions (they even encourage CC items on it), and has a token fee for putting items on it, this qualifies it as a free market. Cross-server sales would be nice, but are not necessary for the definition. As for the natural balance of supply and demand, it's a computer game, items are spawned randomly, crafted, or bought of Cartel Coins, they have no natural source, so of course supply and demand is going to be out of kilter with real-world economies.