Why Does Every Important Imperial Character Die?

[LordGarmaZabi]

The best option would have been just to challenge Nox to a one on one duel.

 

But let's be real here. If Thanaton had given up on his blatantly idiotic campaign to destroy Darth Nox merely because his master bent the rules a little, he would never have found himself in such a compromising position. We should not forget that Thanaton's reasons for turning against Nox were idiotic in the first place as well as unjustified, and he effectively orchestrated his own downfall. If he had simply accepted Nox as a Lord and not tried to exact justice (or rather petty revenge) or Zash's all-in-all blameless apprentice, he would never have had this problem in the first place. Maybe one day Nox would have replaced him, but that's how Sith Hierachy works.

 

Really I never liked Thanaton, and I thought he was somewhat broken as a character. He took tradition too far to be logical. I mean, shutting down the Silencer project because what? "The ability to wipe out an entire fleet in single shot is insignificant next to the power of the Force." I can tell you I was just waiting for Thanaton to open his mouth during our duel and shout "I'm firin ma lazer!" It never happened. Scrapping such an initiative on a whim was plain stupid.

 

In other news, I too am a little frustrated by how the best of the Empire are taken away from us. But no one yet has mentioned Darth Serevin who really would have done the Empire a massive deal of good if he had not been killed.

 

I can't tell you how many times during the Inquisitor storyline that Thanaton was talking, and I was waiting for the dialog option to say "But that's dumb !". I'll be honest, I haven't done the Inquisitor storyline in a few months, but, I seem to recall it being stated that he had sent others before you to be killed by the Sith Ghost on Dromund Kaas. Based on that, him keeping an apprentice who was terrified of him, and the way he set out to kill Zash, Nox, and anyone associated with them, I got the feeling that he was afraid of any rising Sith in his powerbase one day killing him. Granted, holding onto power is par for the course for a Sith Lord, cheating the rule of the strong seems to me to be far more detrimental to the Sith then the rule itself, as it leads to both a weaker Empire in the long run, and incompetent fools like Thanaton holding power far longer then they should have.

 

Darth Serevin was competent, I'll give him that, although, with the Empire becoming more alien friendly, what good he could have done may happen anyways. I notice the Codex mentions Cathar Clans and Kaleesh Tribes rising the ranks of the Empire, I'd like to see some more Imperial NPCs of those races in the future.

[Bleeters]

But no one yet has mentioned Darth Serevin who really would have done the Empire a massive deal of good if he had not been killed.

Eh. Serevin's passive aggressive/literally aggressive threatening if you finish off Voss by divulging the truth of Voss's origins didn't hugely impress me. Or rather, his 'the one small positive from this entire disaster is that the mystics have shown more interest in us' line from the later message he sends you.

 

Wow, really? The foundation of Voss society, voice of absolute authority amongst their people and primary objective of the Empire on the planet are more interested in you now? How awful. I'm so sorry for screwing up months of mediocre and largely self sabotaging diplomatic efforts apparently.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Bleeters

[LordGarmaZabi]

Eh. Serevin's passive aggressive/literally aggressive threatening if you finish off Voss by divulging the truth of Voss's origins didn't hugely impress me. Or rather, his 'the one small positive from this entire disaster is that the mystics have shown more interest in us' line from the later message he sends you.

 

Wow, really? The foundation of Voss society, voice of absolute authority amongst their people and primary objective of the Empire on the planet are more interested in you now? How awful. I'm so sorry for screwing up months of mediocre and largely self sabotaging diplomatic efforts apparently.

 

Considering the alternative option, I'd be pissed at you too, just saying,

[Euphrosyne]

The best option would have been just to challenge Nox to a one on one duel.

Why? He's Darth Thanaton. He's a Dark Council member. He has his own private/feudal/whateverthehell military. Making it a one-on-one confrontation removes many of his own advantages for no particular reason.

But let's be real here. If Thanaton had given up on his blatantly idiotic campaign to destroy Darth Nox merely because his master bent the rules a little, he would never have found himself in such a compromising position. We should not forget that Thanaton's reasons for turning against Nox were idiotic in the first place as well as unjustified, and he effectively orchestrated his own downfall. If he had simply accepted Nox as a Lord and not tried to exact justice (or rather petty revenge) or Zash's all-in-all blameless apprentice, he would never have had this problem in the first place. Maybe one day Nox would have replaced him, but that's how Sith Hierachy works.

How was it blatantly idiotic? Zash was unstable even by Sith standards, an obvious plotter, and a clear would-be threat. Any apprentice of hers would presumably be...very similar. Besides, that apprentice would be, y'know, Sith, and by virtue of being Sith would be bound to plot against Thanaton at some point eventually because that's how Sith "society" works. Squashing that apprentice like a bug would make sense. Blamelessness has got nothing to do with it (and one might point out that the Forcewalker had murdered Skotia and therefore wasn't "blameless" anyway). When would a Sith care about blamelessness anyway?

 

And then, after the beginning of Chapter 2, Thanaton was committed. He couldn't back down in any meaningful way to this upstart, because that would entail a fairly disastrous loss of personal prestige. It was worse than it might otherwise have been because the Forcewalker wasn't even being patronized by another, more powerful Sith Lord, which might have plausibly given Thanaton space to climb down. Instead, he failed to kill a relative pipsqueak. And still, the Forcewalker was a pipsqueak. It wasn't like Thanaton knew that she would eventually grow powerful enough to utterly destroy him and take his place; to him, she was just another in a very long line of dead challengers, with slightly more talent for staying alive than most of the rest of them had. He could reasonably chalk up the first several failed attempts to kill her as bad luck or insufficient effort and try again; that would make more sense than admitting that some scrub tyro Sith Lady was better than he, a Dark Council member.

 

Eventually, too, there was the issue of sunk costs. By the time of the Corellian campaign, maybe even earlier, Thanaton probably thought that he'd invested far too much into destroying the Forcewalker to stop. Otherwise, everything that had gone into their little civil war would be wasted. And that was presuming that the Forcewalker was even interested in some sort of truce, and I, for one, certainly wouldn't have wanted to make nice with Thanaton after all the tusker poop he flung at me.

Really I never liked Thanaton, and I thought he was somewhat broken as a character. He took tradition too far to be logical. I mean, shutting down the Silencer project because what? "The ability to wipe out an entire fleet in single shot is insignificant next to the power of the Force." I can tell you I was just waiting for Thanaton to open his mouth during our duel and shout "I'm firin ma lazer!" It never happened. Scrapping such an initiative on a whim was plain stupid.

 

In other news, I too am a little frustrated by how the best of the Empire are taken away from us. But no one yet has mentioned Darth Serevin who really would have done the Empire a massive deal of good if he had not been killed.

Thanaton probably saw the Silencer as a stupid white-elephant project that promised far in excess of what its expense was likely to justify. God knows that that's a more realistic take on the eight skillion superweapons that show up in this game. Kinda like how the Nazis wasted precious production and resources on the stupid Wunderwaffen late in the Second World War.

 

I don't rate Serevin's competence particularly high, like Bleeters, and for largely the same reasons. I don't think he was an idiot on the level of Kilran, to be fair, but his diplomatic ability was nothing special and the sum total of his efforts before the player characters come to Voss seem to be very little if anything. There's not much that he does in a positive sense other than stall, and it doesn't exactly take a diplomatic genius to stall the Voss. That's really all anybody can say about him: he was mostly okay at what he did, but not all that great. If that's where the Empire has to go for great statesmen and leaders, it says more about the Empire than it does about Serevin.

[Beniboybling]

Why? He's Darth Thanaton. He's a Dark Council member. He has his own private/feudal/whateverthehell military. Making it a one-on-one confrontation removes many of his own advantages for no particular reason.

I fail to see your point here, arrogance and cowardice are not legitimate reasons for waging a full scale war against an individual who doesn't even have much of a powerbase. Challenging Darth Nox in a one-on-one confrontation would be in the best interests of the Empire, but clearly Darth Thanaton does not have the interests of the Empire at heart, merely his own personal prestige. As as leader of the Sphere of Ancient Knowledge, if one is lacking in personal Force prowess, one hardly deserves a seat.

How was it blatantly idiotic? Zash was unstable even by Sith standards, an obvious plotter, and a clear would-be threat. Any apprentice of hers would presumably be...very similar. Besides, that apprentice would be, y'know, Sith, and by virtue of being Sith would be bound to plot against Thanaton at some point eventually because that's how Sith "society" works. Squashing that apprentice like a bug would make sense. Blamelessness has got nothing to do with it (and one might point out that the Forcewalker had murdered Skotia and therefore wasn't "blameless" anyway). When would a Sith care about blamelessness anyway?

His entire campaign was therefore based on an assumption and self-centered foresight. If Thanaton is abject to Sith ideals (which I don't believe he is) then he joined the wrong faction. Nox would have always attempted to overthrow Thanaton, anybody would, as you put it that's how Sith society works and Thanaton lacks the authority to refute that.

 

Which of course he did. He had no right to destroy a lesser member of his powerbase, who had yes murdered Skotia but on the orders of his master of whom his is bound to exact her every command - in a move that in all honesty the rest of the Dark Council would have probably applauded. Instead he attempts to throw away an individual who has already proven a worthy and powerful asset to the Empire and its war effort. He responded to questionable infighting with equally questionable infighting, and it only proves him a hypocrite.

 

"Without these traditions, the Sith would be so awash in their own blood they couldn't see their enemies taking aim."

 

Oh really Thanaton?

 

The fact that it lost his is position, his life, his legacy, Coreillia and perhaps the war itself just adds insult to injury.

And then, after the beginning of Chapter 2, Thanaton was committed. He couldn't back down in any meaningful way to this upstart, because that would entail a fairly disastrous loss of personal prestige. It was worse than it might otherwise have been because the Forcewalker wasn't even being patronized by another, more powerful Sith Lord, which might have plausibly given Thanaton space to climb down. Instead, he failed to kill a relative pipsqueak. And still, the Forcewalker was a pipsqueak. It wasn't like Thanaton knew that she would eventually grow powerful enough to utterly destroy him and take his place; to him, she was just another in a very long line of dead challengers, with slightly more talent for staying alive than most of the rest of them had. He could reasonably chalk up the first several failed attempts to kill her as bad luck or insufficient effort and try again; that would make more sense than admitting that some scrub tyro Sith Lady was better than he, a Dark Council member.

 

Eventually, too, there was the issue of sunk costs. By the time of the Corellian campaign, maybe even earlier, Thanaton probably thought that he'd invested far too much into destroying the Forcewalker to stop. Otherwise, everything that had gone into their little civil war would be wasted. And that was presuming that the Forcewalker was even interested in some sort of truce, and I, for one, certainly wouldn't have wanted to make nice with Thanaton after all the tusker poop he flung at me.

He made a mistake and he paid for it. More the fool him.

Thanaton probably saw the Silencer as a stupid white-elephant project that promised far in excess of what its expense was likely to justify. God knows that that's a more realistic take on the eight skillion superweapons that show up in this game. Kinda like how the Nazis wasted precious production and resources on the stupid Wunderwaffen late in the Second World War.

To me the Silencer seemed like a revolutionary piece of technology in terms of superweapons in the sense it could be mass produced, eliminating the largest problem of equipment in this field - namely that they acted as massive targets that mere moments after coming off the line would promptly be destroyed. Nor did it seem to take a great deal of time or resources to complete. But really it was Thanaton's pathetic excuse that I took issue with.

I don't rate Serevin's competence particularly high, like Bleeters, and for largely the same reasons. I don't think he was an idiot on the level of Kilran, to be fair, but his diplomatic ability was nothing special and the sum total of his efforts before the player characters come to Voss seem to be very little if anything. There's not much that he does in a positive sense other than stall, and it doesn't exactly take a diplomatic genius to stall the Voss. That's really all anybody can say about him: he was mostly okay at what he did, but not all that great. If that's where the Empire has to go for great statesmen and leaders, it says more about the Empire than it does about Serevin.

As one of the few Sith seemingly capable of diplomacy, he stood out from the crowd. Yes, the alliance with the Voss was achieved by yourself, but not without Serevin's guidance and pre-preparation. And if such an alliance ever came into fruition (which it did not thanks to his demise) I expect the Empire would have gained an extremely powerful ally.

[Beniboybling]

Eh. Serevin's passive aggressive/literally aggressive threatening if you finish off Voss by divulging the truth of Voss's origins didn't hugely impress me. Or rather, his 'the one small positive from this entire disaster is that the mystics have shown more interest in us' line from the later message he sends you.

 

Wow, really? The foundation of Voss society, voice of absolute authority amongst their people and primary objective of the Empire on the planet are more interested in you now? How awful. I'm so sorry for screwing up months of mediocre and largely self sabotaging diplomatic efforts apparently.

Considering that you threw away an opportunity to solidify an alliance with the Voss and disgrace the Republic by telling the truth (you foul demon ) I can imagine how Serevin would be enraged.

 

All that effort effectively proved relatively fruitless. "A little more interest" hardly stacks up to his current progress.

[Xilizhra]

How was it blatantly idiotic? Zash was unstable even by Sith standards, an obvious plotter, and a clear would-be threat. Any apprentice of hers would presumably be...very similar.

That... doesn't really follow. Lord Skar, Thanaton's own apprentice, is a blood knight with little desire to enter the political arena, and Xalek will be similar to relatively few PC Inquisitors.

 

Thanaton probably saw the Silencer as a stupid white-elephant project that promised far in excess of what its expense was likely to justify. God knows that that's a more realistic take on the eight skillion superweapons that show up in this game. Kinda like how the Nazis wasted precious production and resources on the stupid Wunderwaffen late in the Second World War.

Those weren't Thanaton's reasons; they were more related to an obsession with personal combat and using the power of the Force. And the project was canceled when basically everything was done aside from the addition of a single crystal that you can just ask a random cult on Nar Shaddaa for, so it's not like much cost would have been saved by that point anyway.

The Silencer isn't like the Death Star, which served only as a counterproductive terror weapon; it has eminently practical uses.

 

I don't rate Serevin's competence particularly high, like Bleeters, and for largely the same reasons. I don't think he was an idiot on the level of Kilran, to be fair, but his diplomatic ability was nothing special and the sum total of his efforts before the player characters come to Voss seem to be very little if anything. There's not much that he does in a positive sense other than stall, and it doesn't exactly take a diplomatic genius to stall the Voss. That's really all anybody can say about him: he was mostly okay at what he did, but not all that great. If that's where the Empire has to go for great statesmen and leaders, it says more about the Empire than it does about Serevin.

Practically no diplomatic effort would have helped anyway, because the only way the Voss would ever make decisions is through their Mystics, and those are out of the hands of both Republic and Empire.

[Bleeters]

Considering that you threw away an opportunity to solidify an alliance with the Voss and disgrace the Republic by telling the truth (you foul demon ) I can imagine how Serevin would be enraged.

 

All that effort effectively proved relatively fruitless. "A little more interest" hardly stacks up to his current progress.

What current progress? He'd accomplished nothing. The only gains the Empire make are the ones you provide. Heck, the first things you do on the planet are clean up his messes before anyone finds out about them. He doesn't get to condemn others for taking risks. I don't care that he's angry at the point that you make the choice. I care that he considers the Mysttics - who effectively dictate everything the Voss do and had previously been entirely indifferent to outsiders - being appreciative of and interested in the Empire as a minor silver lining. What?

 

Using the opportunity to blame the Republic would've been more directly useful, sure. In the short term, anyway. I'm not sure I understand how a group apparently possessed of perfect clarity of vision and a persistent suspicion of outsiders would fall for the 'no see it was all the fault of the guys who are coincidentally our mortal enemies' line, especially for a culture that values looking forward significantly more than looking back, but hey, maybe I'm underestimating the Voss's capacity to be gullible idiots. All I'm saying is he continuously acts like you irrepareably ruined everything even past the point of which that stopped being applicable, whilst he himself achieved bugger all of note.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Bleeters

[Ottoattack]

The problem with the sith is that everyone on the dark council was operating as if they were they were their own territory, and with no supervision (which is the emperor role). With almost all strong figures gone, after Makeb, it seems that the imperial military and the dark council power is consolidated under Marr, and he will represent the highest figure of the empire.

 

I am anticipating that the advancement in the story now is the empire gaining the upper hand with (you know what it is if you played Makeb) and launching full invasion of the republic.

[Beniboybling]

I am anticipating that the advancement in the story now is the empire gaining the upper hand with (you know what it is if you played Makeb) and launching full invasion of the republic.

Well with the recent assault on Kuat Drive Yards of all places, I'd say that advancement is well underway.

[Bleeters]

Speaking of Kuat, how does the story of that go, anyway? I mean, I'd assumed it was the usual swtor thing whereby whichever side you play wins, but trying to come up with something more universally consistent is kind of difficult. I can really only see two alternatives:

 

- Perpetual stalemate: neither side gains any permenant advances.

- Republic victory, since the station is originally Republic controlled. Therefore: Imperials attack, take it over. Republic counter attack, take it back. Story is considered done even if it's repeatable because flashpoint.

 

I'd assumed the first (although that leaves the slight issue of both the Republic and Imperial admirals and all playable characters having apparently very persistent and specific anmesia and repeating the same conversation over and over) but that's not exactly my idea of the Empire going on a crushing offensive. At best they've achieved a quagmire.

[LordGarmaZabi]

Speaking of Kuat, how does the story of that go, anyway? I mean, I'd assumed it was the usual swtor thing whereby whichever side you play wins, but trying to come up with something more universally consistent is kind of difficult. I can really only see two alternatives:

 

- Perpetual stalemate: neither side gains any permenant advances.

- Republic victory, since the station is originally Republic controlled. Therefore: Imperials attack, take it over. Republic counter attack, take it back. Story is considered done even if it's repeatable because flashpoint.

 

I'd assumed the first (although that leaves the slight issue of both the Republic and Imperial admirals and all playable characters having apparently very persistent and specific anmesia and repeating the same conversation over and over) but that's not exactly my idea of the Empire going on a crushing offensive. At best they've achieved a quagmire.

 

Even a quagmire would be an Imperial Victory, I doubt Kaut is churning out very many ships with the battle going on.

[Beniboybling]

Speaking of Kuat, how does the story of that go, anyway? I mean, I'd assumed it was the usual swtor thing whereby whichever side you play wins, but trying to come up with something more universally consistent is kind of difficult. I can really only see two alternatives:

 

- Perpetual stalemate: neither side gains any permenant advances.

- Republic victory, since the station is originally Republic controlled. Therefore: Imperials attack, take it over. Republic counter attack, take it back. Story is considered done even if it's repeatable because flashpoint.

 

I'd assumed the first (although that leaves the slight issue of both the Republic and Imperial admirals and all playable characters having apparently very persistent and specific anmesia and repeating the same conversation over and over) but that's not exactly my idea of the Empire going on a crushing offensive. At best they've achieved a quagmire.

Well that's entirely game mechanics. Obviously these characters are not stuck in an infinite time loop.

 

However what is significant is that the Empire are attacking Kuat, a planet in the Core Worlds and a very important one at that. If the Empire were still on the back foot such a move just wouldn't be possible.

 

Its the equivalent of invading Coreillia, if the Empire take Kuat the war is practically over.

[Bleeters]

Even a quagmire would be an Imperial Victory, I doubt Kaut is churning out very many ships with the battle going on.

True enough.

 

However what is significant is that the Empire are attacking Kuat, a planet in the Core Worlds and a very important one at that. If the Empire were still on the back foot such a move just wouldn't be possible.

I suppose, though neither the Republic or Empire seems to have any concept of space defense anyway. I mean, both sides have no problem just turning up above Dromund Kaas and Tython during the Knight story. I'm not hugely familiar as to how hyperlanes work, but it seems like all it takes to attack a core world at least as far as swtor is concerned is just going there and starting shooting.

 

I'm probably just overthinking everything. Kuat is pretty light on story, after all.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Bleeters

[Euphrosyne]

I fail to see your point here, arrogance and cowardice are not legitimate reasons for waging a full scale war against an individual who doesn't even have much of a powerbase. Challenging Darth Nox in a one-on-one confrontation would be in the best interests of the Empire, but clearly Darth Thanaton does not have the interests of the Empire at heart, merely his own personal prestige. As as leader of the Sphere of Ancient Knowledge, if one is lacking in personal Force prowess, one hardly deserves a seat.

Not merely arrogance and cowardice. Those things have real-world implications. If he is seen to back down against a weak foe, he looks weak. If he looks weak, other Sith are more willing to attack him. Power is always based on a combination of strength and appearance, and the strongest Sith in the galaxy can't stand up to the determined assault of a multitude of her fellows because they think she is vulnerable to them.

 

A relevant quote, from Heroes Die:

 

Several of them have more guts than brains, and they force themselves to unsteady feet, tentatively, each trying to time his rush so that he won't be the first one to reach me.

 

"Courage is admirable," I tell them, smiling through the guard's blood that still trickles down my face, "but it is not a survival trait."

 

"Come on," one of them says urgently, though he's holding himself entirely still. "He can't take us all at once..."

 

And he's right, of course. A couple more stand up uncertainly.

 

I show them as many teeth as will fit in my widest wolf grin, my best [screw] with me, I dare you expression. "That's what the boys outside thought," I remind them. "They were in armor. With crossbows, and clubs. They were professional soldiers."

 

I give them a moment to think this over.

 

The students' eyes fix on me like jacklighted deer.

 

I open my arms as though I'm offering them a group hug.

 

"Where's your armor, kids?"

 

Nobody answers.

 

"Now sit down."

 

They sink back onto the benches like sandbagged sailors.

Losing that aura of invincibility is serious freaking business. It's why countries go to war. It's based on an entirely reasonable and plausible sense of priorities. You might consider those priorities wrong, but that doesn't make them idiocy.

 

And yeah, you also seem to think that just because Thanaton is weaker, he should've given up his power voluntarily. Which is a total joke. I mean, come on. You take this "FOR THE EMPIRE!" stuff entirely too far, and it's getting awfully old.

His entire campaign was therefore based on an assumption and self-centered foresight. If Thanaton is abject to Sith ideals (which I don't believe he is) then he joined the wrong faction. Nox would have always attempted to overthrow Thanaton, anybody would, as you put it that's how Sith society works and Thanaton lacks the authority to refute that.

 

Which of course he did. He had no right to destroy a lesser member of his powerbase, who had yes murdered Skotia but on the orders of his master of whom his is bound to exact her every command - in a move that in all honesty the rest of the Dark Council would have probably applauded. Instead he attempts to throw away an individual who has already proven a worthy and powerful asset to the Empire and its war effort. He responded to questionable infighting with equally questionable infighting, and it only proves him a hypocrite.

 

"Without these traditions, the Sith would be so awash in their own blood they couldn't see their enemies taking aim."

 

Oh really Thanaton?

 

The fact that it lost his is position, his life, his legacy, Coreillia and perhaps the war itself just adds insult to injury.

Wait, what point are you even trying to make? You argue that Thanaton was an idiot for fighting the Forcewalker while claiming at the same time that the Forcewalker would always try to unseat him. If that's the case, then how was Thanaton being an idiot? He was responding to a threat against his position, like any sane being. How would he have no right to 'destroy a member of his powerbase', especially when that person is an actual threat? That's what Sith do. That's how politics works in societies like the Sith have.

 

Again: this isn't difficult. Or shouldn't be. Thanaton sees weaker Sith that might become stronger. Thanaton has excellent reason to suspect that that Sith wishes to overthrow him. Thanaton attempts to kill that Sith before any of that stuff can happen. That Sith unexpectedly turns out to be a once-in-a-millennium adept with colossal power, repeatedly gets lucky, and manages to defeat him. None of this makes Thanaton a moron, or says that he had the wrong plan. He made most of the right moves but simply got unlucky and overpowered.

 

Now, I suppose it's fine for you to believe that Thanaton was an idiot simply because he didn't win. As I've stressed elsewhere, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, even if it's based on a truly bizarre reading of the facts. What confuses me most about your opinion is how inconsistently it is deployed. According to you, Thanaton is an idiot because he had to be the final boss of the SI story and therefore couldn't be the WINNAR. But Serevin, for instance, isn't an idiot, even though he also loses, because...there isn't a because. Or take Kilran, who made objectively bad decisions based on very poor data and lost, and still gets praised by some of the people in this thread because, uh, I guess he had a pretty good voice actor.

He made a mistake and he paid for it. More the fool him.

The point is that it was an entirely reasonable mistake for any competent person to make, given the information and context available at the time, and that it's not easy to see what alternative paths Thanaton would have had.

 

Look, I'm not saying that the man was a genius or anything. I didn't like the man any more than the rest of you did. He obviously made mistakes, and he did lose in the end. I simply think that he's a stronger antagonist than you seem to think he was, because many of the decisions he made really were quite reasonable given the context. It's not an encomium; it's not even an apologia.

As one of the few Sith seemingly capable of diplomacy, he stood out from the crowd. Yes, the alliance with the Voss was achieved by yourself, but not without Serevin's guidance and pre-preparation. And if such an alliance ever came into fruition (which it did not thanks to his demise) I expect the Empire would have gained an extremely powerful ally.

Again, if a mediocre diplomat and a crummy plotter is one of the best the Sith can offer on that front, then that says more about the Sith than it does about Serevin. Ribbentrop and Ciano were mediocre-to-bad diplomats too, but nobody praises the Nazis and Fascists for the mere fact that they had a diplomatic corps. It's kind of expected.

That... doesn't really follow. Lord Skar, Thanaton's own apprentice, is a blood knight with little desire to enter the political arena, and Xalek will be similar to relatively few PC Inquisitors.

The backstabbing and power-grubbing tendencies endemic to the Sith as an institution - this stuff is enshrined in the Sith Code! - don't get canceled out by the existence of a few idiotic patsies. Thanaton would have been foolish to assume that the Forcewalker was the same way as them.

 

Knowing what Thanaton knew at the beginning of Chapter 2, the Forcewalker was a potential threat that was fortunately weak enough to easily squash at the time, so he tried to squash it. That he misread how powerful the Forcewalker actually was could be partially his fault, but honestly, if she wasn't the player character of a video game then he almost certainly would've been right about her. And it's not really fair to fault him for not knowing that he's a key antagonist of a player character in a video game.

Those weren't Thanaton's reasons; they were more related to an obsession with personal combat and using the power of the Force. And the project was canceled when basically everything was done aside from the addition of a single crystal that you can just ask a random cult on Nar Shaddaa for, so it's not like much cost would have been saved by that point anyway.

The Silencer isn't like the Death Star, which served only as a counterproductive terror weapon; it has eminently practical uses.

To me the Silencer seemed like a revolutionary piece of technology in terms of superweapons in the sense it could be mass produced, eliminating the largest problem of equipment in this field - namely that they acted as massive targets that mere moments after coming off the line would promptly be destroyed. Nor did it seem to take a great deal of time or resources to complete. But really it was Thanaton's pathetic excuse that I took issue with.

Okay, yeah, it might be a mistake to assume that Thanaton would reject the Silencer based on eminently reasonable real-world objections. So despite the fact that there are many good objections to the Silencer project - it's too expensive for what it does (never mind that "what it does" is absolutely insane), it's untested, there are better things to spend on - Thanaton would simply go with a bizarre anachronistic argument that, if true, would nullify the reason for having any military at all.

 

Yes, I suppose that is bad writing, or Thanaton being stupid. True enough.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Euphrosyne

[Beniboybling]

Firstly I'd point out that you've made quite a few wrong assumptions concerning my argument, perhaps its because of a hasty reading or something else, but this is hardly new, so I'd advise in future that you pay greater attention.

 

This "your inconsistent" argument is certainly getting old, when it is you creating the inconsistencies. If you confused about something, ask, don't assume - you know how the saying goes I'm sure.

 

1. I fail to see how that is relevant. Defeating Nox in single combat without the assistance of his powerbase would have been far more impressive than defeating Nox is the manner in which he failed to do. Really having to apply your entire powerbase against a newly appointed Sith Lord who doesn't even have a powerbase is both overkill and makes Thanaton look weak, he is hiding behind his troops, its an embarrassment. Again I don't believe personal prestige should be placed above the strength of the Empire, a lack of the former is far less damaging the lack of the latter.

 

In terms of misconceptions, I said nothing about Thanaton voluntarily giving up his position. My point was that as head of the Sphere of Ancient Knowledge he is expected to be a superior Force User to those beneath him. Given that the Sphere of Ancient Knowledge is dedicated to using the dark side of the Force for the Sith Empire's benefit.

 

2. My point is that Thanaton's campaign was based on a non-existent issue. Preemptive strikes such as this is not how Sith politics works, its how Sith politics fails and powerplays break out. The way in which actual Sith politics works is if your inferiors grow stronger than you, in whatever manner, they have a legitimate claim to replace you, and do so smoothly. Thanaton tried to prevent this process from happening, I don't know what he saw in Nox. Perhaps a Sith Lord who would inevitably grow stronger than him, or perhaps simply someone who might cause trouble. But he had no right to attack him. If every Sith followed his example the Dark Council would initiate a purge of their powerbases, eliminating anyone who in the near or distant future might attempt to usurp them. Which for the record is everyone.

 

Really its the equivalent of a Rule of Two master killing his apprentice because he sees the potential that his apprentice might grow stronger than him and usurp him i.e. attempting to subverted the very basis of Sith philosophy.

 

Idiocy is an understatement.

 

What Thanaton should have done is simply allowed Nox to exist, contribute to his powerbase, contribute to the Empire, as he is meant to. If he grew more powerful than Thanaton, they according to Sith teaching, he would be replaced. Standing in the way of that is going against what the very ancient teachings he supposedly upholds dictate.

 

Now for the misconceptions, I never said that Thanaton was a fool because he lost. The point I was making there is merely a demonstration that Thanaton was taking massive and unnessary measures in his attempt to eradicate Nox, which in the event in which they backfired, would cause collosal damage to himself and the Empire. Which it did. And even if he had been successful in say defeating Nox in what it came down to - a personal duel - he still would have caused irreparable damage to the war on Corellia he'd still be a hypocrite and he'd still be a preemptive idiot.

 

As I said, it merely adds insult to injury that his foolish endeavor ended catastrophically. But it was foolish either way. Thanaton engaged in petty Sith powerplay, practically mimicking the actions of Zash who like him attempted to undermine the system of Sith succession for her own benefit by overthrowing her superior who she had yet to surpass.

 

4. I don't think Serevin was a mediocre/bad plotter, and I don't think he was intended to be presented as such. (On the other hand I did feel Thanaton was meant to be a person who needed to be disposed of) I expect you merely found the storyline inadequate - probably due to game mechanics, or some idiosyncrasy that doesn't match the history books.

 

P.S. If any of the above arguments encourage you to make an "according to you" statement, I'd appreciate it if you restrained yourself. It would prevent a great deal of frustration on both sides I'm sure.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Beniboybling

[AlixMV]

All we are left with is Darth Marr (the boy who lived).

 

This made me lol.

 

-----

 

But...diverting the topic a bit, the Republic does not escape unscathed. At least three of the members of the Jedi High Council are killed through the course of the game to date (and a fourth winds up dead or likely off the Council thanks to events); I can think of only two prominent/named High Council members who survive intact through Oricon. The original Supreme Chancellor is removed from office (or killed). A couple of Senators turn out to be Imperial traitors.

 

It's not quite as dramatic as the Imperials you name (and the Republic military seems remarkably untouched compared to losing Kilran and Rakton), but both sides get hit.

Edited February 14, 2014 by AlixMV

[Beniboybling]

This made me lol.

 

-----

 

But...diverting the topic a bit, the Republic does not escape unscathed. At least three of the members of the Jedi High Council are killed through the course of the game to date (and a fourth winds up dead or likely off the Council thanks to events); I can think of only two prominent/named High Council members who survive intact through Oricon. The original Supreme Chancellor is removed from office (or killed). A couple of Senators turn out to be Imperial traitors.

 

It's not quite as dramatic as the Imperials you name (and the Republic military seems remarkably untouched compared to losing Kilran and Rakton), but both sides get hit.

The real problem is that the meritocratic system of the Empire gives elevates a select few, and gives them great deals of power, so when these individuals are eliminated, the impact is considerable. On the other hand the Republic, who keeps everyone around the same level, simply replaces it with another.

 

For example compare the death of Chancellor Janarus to the death of the Sith Emperor. The difference is colossal.

 

That said I do think the Empire is far more saturated with tactical genius and powerful Force Users - its one of the few merits of the system, its so brutal that those who rise to the top are really, really good.

[Master-Nala]

The most important characters are the Emperor's Wrath and Darth Nox/Oculus/Imperious. The rest of those jokers had to die so that our characters can take their rightful places in the Empire's power structure.

[Jenzali]

Excellent read, Euphrosyne. You have managed to convince me that Thanaton actually has motivations that make sense.

 

I've always had quite a few complaints with the quality of the writing in the Sith Inquisitor story, and Thanaton's apparent lack of convincing motivations was near the top of that list. Another example is his fondness of unspecified "traditions" as a reason to hate the player character. I thought it IS a Sith tradition for an apprentice to kill his or her master, so what exactly makes the player character (or even Zash for that matter) un-"traditional"?

 

The underlying issue is the storywriting - even though all of Thanaton's motivations could be argued as logically sound, they all seem nonsensical in the context of the story thus making Thanaton possibly one of the most uninteresting and unconvincing characters in the game. The reason for this is that the Sith Inquisitor is made to seem like an idiot because of the way that he/she never initiates any actions or plans; rather it is a series of events that happens to the player character without the player's input and without allowing the player to show any form of intelligence or initiative. So if Thanaton's rival seems like a complete moron, no matter how logical Thanaton is, he will seem like even more of a moron for losing.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Jenzali

[Stanimir]

If you watch the 2.7 cut scenes you can see more anti-Empire **** coming down the pipes from a mile away.

 

The Emperor makes no sense to me. Palpatine was the most powerful sith arguably ever, and he didn't want to literally destroy all life. They give you no room to side with the emperor, and ultimately leave the Empire Side simply a deformed Republic.

 

It's just lazy story writing. Emperor = Objective Bad, Everyone Else = Maybe disagree, but have to unite to face this evil! smileyface

 

Sooo stupid.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Stanimir

[DAWUSS]

If you watch the 2.7 cut scenes you can see more anti-Empire **** coming down the pipes from a mile away.

 

The Emperor makes no sense to me. Palpatine was the most powerful sith arguably ever, and he didn't want to literally destroy all life. They give you no room to side with the emperor, and ultimately leave the Empire Side simply a deformed Republic.

 

It's just lazy story writing. Emperor = Objective Bad, Everyone Else = Maybe disagree, but have to unite to face this evil! smileyface

 

Sooo stupid.

 

 

So basically we have another Republic + Empire vs. Great Big Bad?

 

I miss the Cold War...

[Kaisernick]

If you watch the 2.7 cut scenes you can see more anti-Empire **** coming down the pipes from a mile away.

 

The Emperor makes no sense to me. Palpatine was the most powerful sith arguably ever, and he didn't want to literally destroy all life. They give you no room to side with the emperor, and ultimately leave the Empire Side simply a deformed Republic.

 

It's just lazy story writing. Emperor = Objective Bad, Everyone Else = Maybe disagree, but have to unite to face this evil! smileyface

 

Sooo stupid.

Interesting that u mention palpatine remember his teaching to Anikan in episode 3 "all who gain power are afraid to loose it"

The Emperor has ultimate power he was almost immortal but it seems he wasn't truly, he knew his power would one day be lost ie die so he enacted a plan to keep his power forever and destroying all life was the key.

The same can be said for Thanaton he saw a new Lord not only kill Darth Skota but also his master and a slave not a true sith by his standards, i think that Thanaton's story was simply him afraid of loosing his power and much like palpatine his sinlge focus on destroying this power lead to his downfall i mean hell palpatine never saw vaders redemption coming so is he just as stupid as thanaton for not thinking the SI could actually kill him?

[Beniboybling]

Interesting that u mention palpatine remember his teaching to Anikan in episode 3 "all who gain power are afraid to loose it"

The Emperor has ultimate power he was almost immortal but it seems he wasn't truly, he knew his power would one day be lost ie die so he enacted a plan to keep his power forever and destroying all life was the key.

The same can be said for Thanaton he saw a new Lord not only kill Darth Skota but also his master and a slave not a true sith by his standards, i think that Thanaton's story was simply him afraid of loosing his power and much like palpatine his sinlge focus on destroying this power lead to his downfall i mean hell palpatine never saw vaders redemption coming so is he just as stupid as thanaton for not thinking the SI could actually kill him?

"All Sith have a fatal flaw: an overwhelming emotion that drives them to self-destruction. For the Emperor, that emotion is fear."

 

--Senior writer Hall Hood

[Kaedusz]

The Emperor makes no sense to me. Palpatine was the most powerful sith arguably ever, and he didn't want to literally destroy all life. They give you no room to side with the emperor, and ultimately leave the Empire Side simply a deformed Republic.

 

It's just lazy story writing. Emperor = Objective Bad, Everyone Else = Maybe disagree, but have to unite to face this evil! smileyface

 

The Emperor wants to destroy all life because such are his perceptions.His power is so vast that he doesn't think ,feel or perceive the world ,as a normal mortal being.His evil goes beyond that of normal sith lords,such as Palpatine.

The vibe around him bears more similarity to the Son or Abeloth,not a sith lord.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Kaedusz