paowee Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) My only worry is that the single target DPS gap is going to widen further, just solely basing on player parses though. Mercs Operatives/Mara/ (VG too?) Sniper/Sage/others Edited January 10, 2014 by paowee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTap Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) My only worry is that the single target DPS gap is going to widen further, just solely basing on player parses though. Mercs Operatives/Mara/ (VG too?) Sniper/Sage/others vg/pt hybrid is getting nerfed, requiring middle tree cylinder for the 3 stacks of flamethrower/pulse cannon, which imo is a heavier nerf than this sniper one. Edited January 10, 2014 by KTap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transmet Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Before we get out pitchforks out....let's try playing it..... I have a feeling this will be a good energy regen ability and remove a lot of unwanted Rifle Shots for both Sniper/Operatives.... The REAL problem I think comes with the feeling of it. It's an EPIC ability. You're calling down thunder from space. It shouldn't feel trivial and small. If you're reading this Musco, gj on Concealment, but you still REALLY NEED to look at the redesign on 4 set pve. +5 energy is utterly useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akabane_k Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) vg/pt hybrid is getting nerfed, requiring middle tree cylinder for the 3 stacks of flamethrower/pulse cannon. the orbital nerf hits ops too. I doubt they will stay up with mara after it. Leth will prob be the best single target sniper spec now, time to start parsing. so itll be merc 4k mara 3.8 everyone else 3.5-3.7 and keep in mind sniper doesn't have to deal with rng procs, so their average(parse on a boss fight) is closer to the maximum(the parses on the leaderboard) than other classes that do have random procs. Edited January 10, 2014 by akabane_k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTap Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 the orbital nerf hits ops too. I doubt they will stay up with mara after it. Leth will prob be the best single target sniper spec now, time to start parsing. so itll be merc 4k mara 3.8 everyone else 3.5-3.7 afk back to leveling merc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akabane_k Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 afk back to leveling merc just in time to be hit with the nerfbat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardarell_Solo Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 If Mind Crush weren't bugged, I suspect you'd be parsing a lot closer to gunslinger numbers. In any case, neither here nor there. How is Mind Crush bugged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transmet Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 vg/pt hybrid is getting nerfed, requiring middle tree cylinder for the 3 stacks of flamethrower/pulse cannon, which imo is a heavier nerf than this sniper one. I don't understand their logic behind this nerf to PT/VG. Especially without a baseline buff to the other two full trees. There's a reason people were choosing Hybrid over them, BW. It's not a popular dps class to begin with. Why widdle the population of players of it down even more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akabane_k Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I don't understand their logic behind this nerf to PT/VG. Especially without a baseline buff to the other two full trees. There's a reason people were choosing Hybrid over them, BW. It's not a popular dps class to begin with. Why widdle the population of players of it down even more? ion cell ap in pvp. imba as balls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTap Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) I don't understand their logic behind this nerf to PT/VG. Especially without a baseline buff to the other two full trees. There's a reason people were choosing Hybrid over them, BW. It's not a popular dps class to begin with. Why widdle the population of players of it down even more? They've stated a few times they don't like hybrids, or something along those lines. I guess they don't fit their 'vision' for this game. vg/pt managed to survive the last hybrid nerf, but idk if they will survive this one just in time to be hit with the nerfbat probably Edited January 10, 2014 by KTap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TACeMossie Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 the orbital nerf hits ops too. I doubt they will stay up with mara after it. Leth will prob be the best single target sniper spec now, time to start parsing. so itll be merc 4k mara 3.8 everyone else 3.5-3.7 and keep in mind sniper doesn't have to deal with rng procs, so their average(parse on a boss fight) is closer to the maximum(the parses on the leaderboard) than other classes that do have random procs. Ops may have gotten an orbital nerf, but all the Ops buffs have been listed. And there are a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if Ops go up to 3.8/4k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transmet Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Ops may have gotten an orbital nerf, but all the Ops buffs have been listed. And there are a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if Ops go up to 3.8/4k we're already at 3.8k, but we relied on OS to get us there.....we will generally be parsing less after this is all said and done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akabane_k Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Ops may have gotten an orbital nerf, but all the Ops buffs have been listed. And there are a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if Ops go up to 3.8/4k nearly all ops buff are for concealment. Leth gets a 1% increase to a couple talents and 3 sec more on corrosive dart. And i dont think concealment will be a pve spec, but wierder things have happened.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THoK-Zeus Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) If the changes i have read so far (only the corrosive dart changes were posted by the devs) are correct, following things should happen: Singe target (dummy) Rotation: -MM: Most popular spec (36/4/6) gets a 12,5% damage increase to corrosive darts, which is around a total damage increase of 1% (as corrosive dart deals about 8% of our damage). The 60 additional cunning from the 4 set Bonus is probably 0,5-1% more damage (i am actually not really sure about that). Orbital is a standard part of our rotation, previously it dealt about 11% of our damage with 4,5% of our global cooldowns (judging from my own parses). A quick calculation indicates that 3 ticks from Orbital Strike will be a bit over 5000 damage on average in full 78 gear. That should be more then Explosive Probe for example (4,8k) or Snipe while costing less energy, but for pure single target it will then just be a filler. Now, there are different Scenarios, but most likely you will still cast orbital strike for pure single target dps as a filler cause the standard mm rotation needs a few filler especially before execute: If we still cast it slighlty faster, so that we have the same gcd for orbital (8 OS for 24 ticks every ~35 seconds), we will 62% of its damage which means we lose 7% of our dps. As the energy costs are a lot lower now for OS, i think it's save to say that you can squeeze in a few more explosive probes for rifle shots (previously i did ~5 RS and ~5 EP in marksmann parses). Let's say we are very good and are able to get 2 more EP instead of Rifle Shots (from Orbital Strikes we get about 100 additional energy). That would be about 6k more dps is ~0,6% more dps. Summing all this up, marksmann snipers lose about 4,4% of their single target dps. Thats roughly 160 dps, which will put marksmann snipers behind a lot of spec in terms of dummy dps (still mm snipers got a lot more utiliy, that they bring to a raid...). -Hybrid Orbital Strike is casted instead of a series of shot + ambush most of the time. Currently i don't see any possible way of including OS anymore into the Hybrid Rotation in terms of single target dps.With a 2 seconds cast time it's not worth it, cause you would have to cast it with ambush to not make it 2 gcd, which is not possible. For the precast Orbital Strike, you lose about 14k dps. For the rest of the Orbital Strikes you lose about 5k dps. Alltogether thats 111 less dps. For the hybrid the 4 set Bonus is actually more viable then for marksmann due to energy Problems while casting takedown sub 30%, so i will count that with 2% (1% for cunning, 1% for a takedown instead of a rifle shot, probably it's more). Altogether thats 35 dps less, that's less then 1% less damage. Actually my calculations show me that it's in the current game already the best way to just precast orbital and go for 4 set Bonus as a hybrid sniper and never cast orbital again in single target rotation. 1 single additional takedown is enough. :eek: I didn't even count in the Corrosive Dart buffs, if you are able to get them hybrid snipers might be completely unaffected in terms of pure single target dps. Edited January 10, 2014 by THoK-Zeus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paowee Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) just in time to be hit with the nerfbat aren't they getting buffed with pushback immunity along with sages? Edited January 10, 2014 by paowee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akabane_k Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 aren't they getting buffed with pushback immunity along with sages? The nerfbat will come, maybe not this patch; but someday, it will hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitz-wing Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 It's coefficient also got reduced by ~62%. What does this mean for base dmg???????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paowee Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 If the changes i have read so far (only the corrosive dart changes were posted by the devs) are correct, following things are happen: Singe target (dummy) Rotation: -MM: Most popular spec (36/4/6) gets a 12,5% damage increase to corrosive darts, which is around a total damage increase of 1% (as corrosive dart deals about 8% of our damage). The 60 additional cunning from the 4 set Bonus is probably 0,5-1% more damage (i am actually not really sure about that). Orbital is a standard part of our rotation, previously it dealt about 11% of our damage with 4,5% of our global cooldowns (judging from my own parses). A quick calculation indicates that 3 ticks from Orbital Strike will be a bit over 5000 damage on average in full 78 gear. That should be more then Explosive Probe for example (4,8k) or Snipe while costing less energy, but for pure single target it will then just be a filler. Now, there are different Scenarios, but most likely you will still cast orbital strike for pure single target dps as a filler cause the standard mm rotation needs a few filler especially before execute: If we still cast it slighlty faster, so that we have the same gcd for orbital (8 OS for 24 ticks every ~35 seconds), we will 62% of its damage which means we lose 7% of our dps. As the energy costs are a lot lower now for OS, i think it's save to say that you can squeeze in a few more explosive probes for rifle shots (previously i did ~5 RS and ~5 EP in marksmann parses). Let's say we are very good and are able to get 2 more EP instead of Rifle Shots (from Orbital Strikes we get about 100 additional energy). That would be about 6k more dps is ~0,6% more dps. Summing all this up, marksmann snipers lose about 4,4% of their single target dps. Hybrid... Hybrid should be affected by this even more right? Do you have some math you can share? >_<; I wish the buffs they 'promised" will come with the orbital nerf ptach. or soon if not on the same release. i would love to try out full lethality again after all these months. you mentioned filler, you are referring to those extra GCDs that come in your rotation right? i think this happens during sniper volleys? a bit confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transmet Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) nearly all ops buff are for concealment. Leth gets a 1% increase to a couple talents and 3 sec more on corrosive dart. And i dont think concealment will be a pve spec, but wierder things have happened.. I'm really going to enjoy trying to make Concealment work in PvE. I expressed my thoughts on what makes Lethality more 'viable' to some guildies earlier tonight. It's the Oprah Winfrey DPS spec. You get a grenade and YOU get a grenade and YOUUUU get a grenade. It puts out a lot of minute damage which all adds up in the end and before 2.6, it destroyed Concealment in single target as well for obvious reasons if you've ever played it. I think with all of its buffing, it actually stands a chance in PvE, it just doesn't have the constant and walmart price aoe potential that Lethality does. Sad to see MM suffer. Now every sniper is going Leth/Hybrid and every Lethality Operative is going to be buffing their dps with WB stacks. FIX THIS!!! Edited January 10, 2014 by Transmet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire-breath Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Just a quick thing to note here, it does say 62% off of the BASE damage, correct? What exactly does this mean? The base damage after modified by gear? Or the base damage if you take it on a naked character? I am kind of hard pressed to believe that Bioware would nerf an ability by 62% right off the bat. Also, Snipers aren't the only people getting hit by this. This affects Operatives pretty heavily as well. The coefficient is basicly the factor which is increasing your techbonusdamage. Below is a formula how you can calculate the tooltipdamage. Its taken from an old post but I assume its still correct. Ability Damage Min = ( AmountModifierPercent + 1 ) * MainHandMin + ( AmountModifierPercent + 1 ) * OffHandMin * 0.3 + Coefficient * DamageBonus + StandardHealthPercentMin * StandardHealth Ability Damage Max = ( AmountModifierPercent + 1 ) * MainHandMax + ( AmountModifierPercent + 1 ) * OffHandMax * 0.3 + Coefficient * DamageBonus + StandardHealthPercentMax * StandardHealth A bit more ontopic. I knew a nerf was needed. But this nerf seems way to high to me. The effect would be at least halving the damage done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogerious Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 MM/SS sniper/gunslinger life will be unhappy after this nerf if there will be not any compenzation. If BW will buffed the lethality (as they mentioned) I will drop the hibrid ( I woud prefer an autocrit for lethal takedown ) Anyway when the PTS will be available, we can see the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XEEVA Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 My Main is a sniper and very successful in PVE and PVP. I saw this change coming, so I am fortunate that I switched to hybrid Leth\Eng a month ago and nearly got that rotation down pat, so the OrbiNerf tm does not affect me so much. However I will make 2 points, this is a fkd nerf that kills our AOE to adds utility and as other posters have stated it is an "Orbital Strike" the shear kinetic energy of hurling an attack from space should be massive and 65% reduction in base damage is totally BS 2nd point, we are snipers. We shoot stuff with guns, so we should have a buff or modification to a shooting ability (Not another shtty overload buff) but something akin to other suggestions like make Laze Target affect the crit chance of the next range ability and not just snipe. I would be really happy with the OrbiNerf tm if that was the case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHuxx Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 They have more parses in the top 10 than any other class, in every fight, and it's not even close. They are #1 on every fight except tyrans, where they are #2 behind pyro merc, and we all know those are op single target. Not going to bother checking tfb/s&v but I'm sure it's the same there. If you're going to argue that it's because it's the most played class, it's the most played class for a reason. This class has been dominating for a long time, and will still be just fine after this nerf, but you can't say it isn't warranted. Every single one of those top parses are gay scatter bomb specs. So people glitching roll so they don't move and get all bombs to hit a boss/adds no matter the size of the boss' hit box. Roll spec should never be counted on torparse. If you look at the top non-roll spec sniper/slinger parse we are not all top. It's a mix of classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHuxx Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 In fact you would be hard pressed to find a non roll spec sniper in the top 10 on most fights (at least for DF HM) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTap Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) Every single one of those top parses are gay scatter bomb specs. No, they're not. How about you look at all of them before stating something like that Just looking at the #1 parses I found 5 that weren't scatter bombs. I'm sure there's a lot more than that in each top 10. Edited January 10, 2014 by KTap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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