branmakmuffin Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 IMaybe they simply put their foot down early in the process This, right there. Other games did it like this from the get-go. People hate change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionHalcyon Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 It always baffles me how SWTOR's devs seem like they are letting players bully them, while other MMO developers don't seem to have that problem. DDO, TSW, Defiance, and I'm pretty sure there are other examples I don't know/forgot about - they all sell story content without any problems whatsoever. Maybe they simply put their foot down early in the process - or maybe SWTOR somehow wound up with all the entitled players... Then again, maybe we should be grateful they aren't doing it - if their only interest in doing it was to stuff them in CM packs rather than have them for sale directly. Exactly. They sell story content. Some players whine about it. They ignore it, and the stuff sells. Wash, rinse, repeat. Point is, the people complaining are also buying, and at the end of the say, its for a profit. So what businessman sees a demand that they COULD provide for, and chooses not to increase their revenue? Maybe they need to go about it creatively to keep their margins up, but still the savvy businessperson wouldn't just let a market sit and languish when the demand is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I was one of the people who argued that subscribers should not pay for story unless it was in an expansion pack, and I think that was the key part of the problem. Lots of people had problems that it was a "very rare" drop from Cartel Packs, so it was, again, lottery. And placing a "story" into CM lottery for subscribers seemed bad, because it seemingly further lowered the value of subscription. Lot of people back then were actually fine if it was done like Section X, Free or discounted for subs, and fully priced for others. However, I still think that large story chunks should be part of expansion pack. Quoted for relevance. Aries_cz comment and original position on this is clear and indicative (right or wrong) of what the forum membership stated. In other words... people want more story, but want it as part of either free patches or expacs that are paid for.....NOT as CM content. I do not agree personally, but I acknowledge their feelings and views on the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionHalcyon Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 I was one of the people who argued that subscribers should not pay for story unless it was in an expansion pack, and I think that was the key part of the problem. Lots of people had problems that it was a "very rare" drop from Cartel Packs, so it was, again, lottery. And placing a "story" into CM lottery for subscribers seemed bad, because it seemingly further lowered the value of subscription. Lot of people back then were actually fine if it was done like Section X, Free or discounted for subs, and fully priced for others. However, I still think that large story chunks should be part of expansion pack. Yup, and keep in mind, my suggestion is that class stories would remain FREE for subs. Freemium people would be your chief buyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandicus Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) If you want to play the "to each his own" card with your "play it or don't" comment, then don't get your panties in a bunch when someone has an idea you don't like - after all, if you don't like it, you don't have to play, right? They're not asking you to not suggest the idea. Many of the people who've criticized aspects of the idea or brought up potential problems with the idea haven't even said that they'd dislike it if implemented. They're simply discussing it. Also the don't like it don't play it thing has more to do with suggestions to shut down the game or move it into an entirely different genre type than modifications or extensions to the existing game. *EDIT Speaking of which, if the game is ever in a state where I don't like it, I won't play it, because I'm not a masochist. Edited January 8, 2014 by Vandicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I found it myself. http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6476568&postcount=382 Nothing about story content. Just datacubes in cartel market. Nothing about lore. In short, nothing about what any of the people claiming "Eric said this!" and "Eric said that!" is actually anything that Eric said. My guess is some people glommed onto the "not gameplay impacting" but it makes it clear he is talking about mechanics (avoiding play to win comment). So yeah, try again with the whole "Eric said" strawman, folks. But if story content adds to the lore of the game by providing background information about a character then it is considered lore. So Eric was indeed referring to Lore by story content. This Lore by story content caused a huge uproar that shall not be repeated because Eric said so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionHalcyon Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 Quoted for relevance. Aries_cz comment and original position on this is clear and indicative (right or wrong) of what the forum membership stated. In other words... people want more story, but want it as part of either free patches or expacs that are paid for.....NOT as CM content. I do not agree personally, but I acknowledge their feelings and views on the topic. You ignored the subscriber part of his post. That's why arguing with you is pointless - you pick and choose what benefits you while destroying context where it doesn't benefit your side. You knowingly create strawman arguments to win pissing contests, and it doesn't get much more trollish than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 You ignored the subscriber part of his post. That's why arguing with you is pointless - you pick and choose what benefits you while destroying context where it doesn't benefit your side. You knowingly create strawman arguments to win pissing contests, and it doesn't get much more trollish than that. Again, you're trying to make this thread about Andryah. So who's trolling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionHalcyon Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 But if story content adds to the lore of the game by providing background information about a character then it is considered lore. So Eric was indeed referring to Lore by story content. This Lore by story content caused a huge uproar that shall not be repeated because Eric said so. Eric said there would be no more datacubes in packs. The context of the discussion was placing story in something totally random. It had nothing to do with story content on the cartel market itself - it had to do with gambling (random in packs) for story content. Context is hugely important. Somewhere along the way, people inferred way too much and took the comment way out of its intended context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 You ignored the subscriber part of his post. That's why arguing with you is pointless - you pick and choose what benefits you while destroying context where it doesn't benefit your side. You knowingly create strawman arguments to win pissing contests, and it doesn't get much more trollish than that. Stop derailing your thread and making it about Andryah, you'll lose all credibility that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) It always baffles me how SWTOR's devs seem like they are letting players bully them, while other MMO developers don't seem to have that problem. DDO, TSW, Defiance, and I'm pretty sure there are other examples I don't know/forgot about - they all sell story content without any problems whatsoever. Maybe they simply put their foot down early in the process - or maybe SWTOR somehow wound up with all the entitled players... Then again, maybe we should be grateful they aren't doing it - if their only interest in doing it was to stuff them in CM packs rather than have them for sale directly. DDO, TSW, and Defiance however have adopted a fundamental business model of selling content AND expacs through their shop. Bioware to date, has not done so. Also, story is embraced by many as a "4th pillar" of content, hence the passionate uprising we saw in the forums. In the datacube case, they were testing the market. The market sent blowback. Since the CM is not fundamental to the current Bioware business model of releasing classic playable content (missions, OPs, etc) it's much simpler for them to test, observe, listen to what the player base says, and then continue on accordingly. So.. story will come through either free patches or paid expacs, rather then the CM. I'm fine with it either way personally. Edited January 8, 2014 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) This thread went straight into derp-ville because someone can't stand their idea being criticized for not being feasible. Edited January 8, 2014 by Arkerus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionHalcyon Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 Again, you're trying to make this thread about Andryah. So who's trolling? You are. If you don't want it to be about her, then why speak for her, unless you are flamebaiting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 You are. If you don't want it to be about her, then why speak for her, unless you are flamebaiting? Speak for Andryah? My comment was aimed at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Exactly. They sell story content. Some players whine about it. They ignore it, and the stuff sells. Wash, rinse, repeat. Point is, the people complaining are also buying, and at the end of the say, its for a profit. So what businessman sees a demand that they COULD provide for, and chooses not to increase their revenue? Maybe they need to go about it creatively to keep their margins up, but still the savvy businessperson wouldn't just let a market sit and languish when the demand is there. I agree, but here's the flip side...they can make $6 off a few players who want a few random side missions....or...they can bundle all these side missions together, toss them into their own "area" and call it an "EXPANSION" and get $30 from every player. Doesn't the "EXPANSION" sound better long term? EXPANSIONS are something thriving games produce. EXPANSIONS get people who quit, looking back to see what they might be missing. EXPANSIONS create positive feelings. EXPANSIONS renew interest. New CM items don't even get talked about except by players. I would guess that 1 "EXPANSION" is probably worth 100+ different CM cut-scenes sold separately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionHalcyon Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 Stop derailing your thread and making it about Andryah, you'll lose all credibility that way. Thank you Andryah's fan/alt. I'll take your advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Eric said there would be no more datacubes in packs. The context of the discussion was placing story in something totally random. It had nothing to do with story content on the cartel market itself - it had to do with gambling (random in packs) for story content. Context is hugely important. Somewhere along the way, people inferred way too much and took the comment way out of its intended context. No. The argument back then was people were horrified that Bioware was putting story content on the CM in the form of tiny little 1 cut scene datacubes and they belittled Bioware to the point where Bioware said no more. I would be fine with using CC to get a story update, but since Bioware has said no more, I'm not expecting them to change their mind anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandicus Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 You ignored the subscriber part of his post. That's why arguing with you is pointless - you pick and choose what benefits you while destroying context where it doesn't benefit your side. You knowingly create strawman arguments to win pissing contests, and it doesn't get much more trollish than that. Its rather unclear that you meant subscribers would receive the class patches for free. From my original understanding it seemed that you were saying that you wanted class story to be developed and sold individually to everyone. I actually don't think that would work from a business standpoint. The other argument had merit in that if subscriber losses were indeed insignificant from such a decision(while a big if, isn't entirely implausible) the class stories might plausibly pay for themselves. I don't think f2pers would buy enough of the class story additions to make it feasible as major purchasers tend to be subscribers in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Thank you Andryah's fan/alt. I'll take your advice. Alright, your credability is lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) You are. If you don't want it to be about her, then why speak for her, unless you are flamebaiting? You are hilarious. I actually am fine with your idea, and have said so. I'm probably one of the few supporters of your idea. Yet you want to get all pissy and make it personal simply because I took the high road and explained early in the thread why they won't do it. Players, vocally, took issue story for sale in the CM. Bioware acknowledged the angst. End of story. Edited January 8, 2014 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandicus Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I agree, but here's the flip side...they can make $6 off a few players who want a few random side missions....or...they can bundle all these side missions together, toss them into their own "area" and call it an "EXPANSION" and get $30 from every player. Doesn't the "EXPANSION" sound better long term? EXPANSIONS are something thriving games produce. EXPANSIONS get people who quit, looking back to see what they might be missing. EXPANSIONS create positive feelings. EXPANSIONS renew interest. New CM items don't even get talked about except by players. I would guess that 1 "EXPANSION" is probably worth 100+ different CM cut-scenes sold separately. An expansion can be sold to everyone, including subscribers. If the model Zion is proposing doesn't involve selling class story to subscribers, I don't see how it could match the funding from a more straightforward expansion model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionHalcyon Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 I agree, but here's the flip side...they can make $6 off a few players who want a few random side missions....or...they can bundle all these side missions together, toss them into their own "area" and call it an "EXPANSION" and get $30 from every player. Doesn't the "EXPANSION" sound better long term? EXPANSIONS are something thriving games produce. EXPANSIONS get people who quit, looking back to see what they might be missing. EXPANSIONS create positive feelings. EXPANSIONS renew interest. New CM items don't even get talked about except by players. I would guess that 1 "EXPANSION" is probably worth 100+ different CM cut-scenes sold separately. Ok... So this was covered in post 1.... Why sell an expansion for $30 when they seem to only be able to put out enough content for the likes of Makeb (which is fine), holding that content back while they get all the class stories done and delaying it, when instead, They STILL can release a $30 expansion pack of just faction quests and a new planet (as they did for Makeb), and THEN charge freemium members say $6 in cartel coins (free for subs) for class stories that are released over the period of a year on that same planet? And what I mean is, say February a new planet is launched. Late March, Warrior gets a class quest on the planet, late april comes smuggler, mid june comes agent, etc. See what I am getting at now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionHalcyon Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 Alright, your credability is lost. From someone who I don't care about in the first place. So really I lost nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) Ok... So this was covered in post 1.... Why sell an expansion for $30 when they seem to only be able to put out enough content for the likes of Makeb (which is fine), holding that content back while they get all the class stories done and delaying it, when instead, You are conflating. Most of us bought RoTHC for $10. Which frankly is about right for the size of it. Now it's free. The key thing you are overlooking, either deliberately or without realizing it..... they have made a strategic decision to add story to the game (beginning with RoTHC) in the form of faction based arcs. They have been transparent about this. They can and probably will revisit their decisions in the future (that is the nature of strategic business decisions, you make them and review them annually) and it may or may not result in a return of class story arcs. Whereas, they have very deliberately steered clear of selling playable content via CM, unlike some other MMOs (even LoTRO which does run a similar sub/preferred/free business model). Personally, I wish they would.... but it's not my choice, or yours, or anyone elses. You are flogging a dead horse at this point. Edited January 8, 2014 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionHalcyon Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 An expansion can be sold to everyone, including subscribers. If the model Zion is proposing doesn't involve selling class story to subscribers, I don't see how it could match the funding from a more straightforward expansion model. Subs still need to pay for the expansion, like they did for Makeb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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