My Grievances (Or, How Bioware is Unprofessional)

[Einobi]

Lol, the game industry is huge and all games have these issues. I don't know what you call the real world of software, but you obviously haven't got a clue how complex certain issues are. I work for a big company that obviously uses software programs for many things. Things go wrong all the time and deadlines are met but usually some things end up not being implemented or fixed because they can't be on time. Only the so called showstoppers can stop a patch or update but generally patches don't contain everything they were supposed to at start. That's the real world for you. Has nothing to do with beliefs.

 

Perhaps that is the TRUTH inside the big company which you have worked in. But certainly not where I was. I would not go into the discussion whether the bigger your company you have worked in, or whether the more expensive project you have worked in, or how long (your experience) you have worked in the IT industry etc, is correlated with validating or supporting any of the issues under discussion and in contention.

 

If you want to go down this track of using credential in your discussion, just check back in the previous thread of my credential in this industry. I know all these issues in this line and I have screwed enough programmers to keep only those that are smart enough not to treat me like an idiots with their smart excuses. There can be many many many issues and there are indeed as natural part and parcel of implementation projects. However there CANNOT be any problems. When there are issues, get it fixed FAST so that it does not become a problem of the customer. Someone has to take responsibility once it becomes a problem of the customer. The bucks and excuses stop with me because I know my boss employed me to get things done and not to make excuses. And I expect the same from my programmers. I keep my job, they keep theirs. I lose my job, they will lose theirs first. I am not being nasty, I am just being realistic. My boss and my customer don't owe me a living and they don't pay me for dishing out excuses.

[AlexDougherty]

That must be something you have been led to believe. In the REAL world of software implementation, we don't even define our own deadline. The customer defines it for us. Do it or don't. Get paid or don't. Keep your job as a programmer or don't. This is the choice that you only have to decide. Not the choice of whether to have deadline or to choose when is the deadline.

 

I didn't say deadlines don't get given, merely that a programmer wouldn't choose to impose them on themselves, yes in all sorts of situations deadlines are set, but even with vital ones like banking they are hit and miss.

 

The devs whatever else they may be are programmers, and understand why deadlines are artificial, especially with something as complex as a game (simplicity is generally the way to go with real world applications, while games by their very nature embrace the opposite, usually), which is why they won't state deadlines.

 

Now I'm not entirely defending the Devs, some bugs that have been here since the beginning should have been fixed by now, but since I don't know why they haven't I'm prepared to give the Devs the benefit of the doubt, but it is shameful never the less.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Life sucks when all you focus on is the negative.

[Icebergy]

1 year is not 'due time'. Please show me where, for example, they've ever mentioned anything regarding the exfiltrate bug.

 

World of Warcraft has had bugs last for 10 years. Blink and Vanish have been bugged in that game since the game came out

[Aries_cz]

Life sucks when all you focus on is the negative.

 

That is why Internet forums (gaming forums especially) are such wretched hives of scum and villainy.

[Therrak]

That must be something you have been led to believe. In the REAL world of software implementation, we don't even define our own deadline. The customer defines it for us. Do it or don't. Get paid or don't. Keep your job as a programmer or don't. This is the choice that you only have to decide. Not the choice of whether to have deadline or to choose when is the deadline.

 

There are thousands and thousands of programmer out there meeting customer defined deadline and keeping their jobs. I don't see how different this industry is where the software implementation complexities and REAL impact to the people using it is on the lower end of the scale compared to those mission-critical and life-dependent software.

 

Would all the big banks and financial institutions still use a certain vendor's database when there is a lingering bugs within it that remains not fixed after months and yet no indication from the vendor on when it will get fixed? NO. The bank would have customer knocking on their door complaining why their account is short of one zero and suddenly, the entire bank's account are out-of-balanced just because of the bugs which affected the integrity of the financial records stored inside the database.

 

"timeline can't be estimated until after it's done"? Sure, dream it in your spare time at home when you are fired from your job as a software programmer.

 

I only see excuses all over the place and not REAL work. The only thing is all these excuses dished out sound so pathetic compared to the REAL world out there. Someone has to come up with a more creative and convincing excuses. Some time back a forumer posted a youtube video of star war in which yoda said "Do it or don't. There is no try." when advising Luke who was trying to force lift his X-wing fighter out of the swamp pit. The choice is his: remain in the pit or to fly. No ******** excuses. How aptly.

 

Don't talk about the "real world of software" when your only experience has been dealing with apps that are used on a few thousand machines with only a few different setups. This isn't some webapp that you use to look up client info from a database. This is software that makes countless calculations per second, client and server side, that has to work on a few hundred thousand machines, potentially most of them being fairly unique setups. Bug squashing in this situation is more akin to triage.

[Arkerus]

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/19bfc6w8eyctxpng/ku-medium.png

[Screaming_Ziva]

I love this game. Really, I do, but it's hard to justify loving it when Bioware is so unprofessional.

 

1. Known bugs have been on the list for over a year (I.E. the valor 100 not properly awarding Ops Leader) and not been addressed.

I haven't PvP'd in a while but what exactly can a PvP ops leader (besides typing in a different color) that other PvP ops members can't do? This doesn't really seem like an important bug to fix.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

That is why Internet forums (gaming forums especially) are such wretched hives of scum and villainy.

 

Guess I'm old school cause I still have fun when I game:D

[ivanhedgehog]

Yes, they have acknowledged the bugs and will provide solution in due time, that is professional.

 

some of these bugs have existed since launch. they will never be addressed.

[Aries_cz]

some of these bugs have existed since launch. they will never be addressed.

 

Just like many of the long known bugs are not fixed in many other games (even the "big ones").

You see, the problem with bugs is, that you have to find out what is wrong. That usually means replicating the problem.

Now, computers are unusually complex devices, with innumerable variations in hardware, operating systems, drivers, other software, etc., making it really difficult to find out why certain problem happens, as it happens to different people with different computers, or worse, it happens to one person with Computer_Setup_A, and it does not happen to another person with exactly the same Computer_Setup_A

[Merwanor]

Bioware completely neglecting issues of a cosmetic nature is also very unprofessional. For instance the throw saber skill is bugged, and it has been like this for a long time. Now I mostly just see myself throw a white lightsaber, or at times it is red or orange etc. But my lightsaber color is blue.

 

Bioware seems to love pleasing the Raiding crowd and the PvP crowd, but the story and questing crowd is left with only Makeb and some very boring daily quest grinds.

[Kryptonomic]

For those saying developers don't give estimates or times, that's simply false. We do it all the time. That's part of how we estimate and part of how we determine velocity.

 

However, those estimates are part of an aggregate for a given release or build cycle. It comes down to what gets prioritized.

 

It's also true, as others have said, that sometimes you don't know quite what the bug is. I wrote up about testing one for SWTOR, in fact, at my blog here: http://testerstories.com/testing-games-is-hard/

 

So sometimes you have bugs that can be very difficult to isolate. Other times you have bugs that, quite simply, are perhaps easy to isolate but just don't get off the backlog. I can't tell you how many "simple bugs" I've seen in my career stay on a backlog for months and months even though it was patently obvious that the fix was not going to be that hard. And yet other times you simply have unresponsive development. And, to be sure, sometimes you have all of those things going on at the same time!

 

Does the lack of fixing bugs make Bioware devs unprofessional? I would say no. It certainly makes them selective, just as most development shops are. What can be seen as unprofessional is saying that you are working on something, but then never showing anyone progress on it or, to all outside appearances, never actually fixing it. You would actually be better off not saying anything about the bug at all, believe it or not. Once you acknowledge bugs, lack of further acknowledgment or, most certainly, a lack of a fix is seen, whether rightfully or not, as being unprofessional.

 

Bottom-line: having worked in the development and testing industry for many years, and doing independent contracting for game companies for going on thirteen years now, Bioware is doing nothing that other companies don't do or haven't done.

[DmdShiva]

A programmer never says "I wil fix this in a month" because a programmer understands how complex it is (complex = many little steps (which can be easy) adding up to something unimaginably complex), and knows that a timeline can't be estimated until after it's done.

 

"The Last Known Bug is dead. Long live the LKB."

-- David's Sling, Marc Stiegler

[DmdShiva]

That must be something you have been led to believe. In the REAL world of software implementation, we don't even define our own deadline. The customer defines it for us. Do it or don't. Get paid or don't. Keep your job as a programmer or don't. This is the choice that you only have to decide. Not the choice of whether to have deadline or to choose when is the deadline.

 

That's one of the types of software development project; the other, developing a product that is then marketed to customers, depends for its release date on whenever the developers eradicate all the bugs that they have found once all the features are in place -- both of which can be indeterminate in nature.

 

There are thousands and thousands of programmer out there meeting customer defined deadline and keeping their jobs. I don't see how different this industry is where the software implementation complexities and REAL impact to the people using it is on the lower end of the scale compared to those mission-critical and life-dependent software.

 

Would all the big banks and financial institutions still use a certain vendor's database when there is a lingering bugs within it that remains not fixed after months and yet no indication from the vendor on when it will get fixed? NO. The bank would have customer knocking on their door complaining why their account is short of one zero and suddenly, the entire bank's account are out-of-balanced just because of the bugs which affected the integrity of the financial records stored inside the database.

 

"Mission-critical" and "life-dependent" software? You're saying that you'll stop breathing if your SWTOR client has a map glitch and drops you into darkness somewhere? And you're failing to distinguish between critical and non-critical bugs. Having a bug in the SWTOR client or server code that, say, kills you when you run over a grate is a critical bug for the game; a bug where if you do X, then Y, then Z, you get stuck in an animation freeze isn't.

 

"timeline can't be estimated until after it's done"? Sure, dream it in your spare time at home when you are fired from your job as a software programmer.

 

I have thirty-three years of experience as a programmer that says different. If you are a programmer working under a contract to a customer that states that you will provide working software by a delivery date, then you have to produce by that date. I challenge you to find anything in any of the documents that you have to agree to as a player of SWTOR that gives Bioware any responsibility whatsoever to address any flaw in the game within any timeline at all. The programmers work for Bioware, not you. Corporate management is their customer; you are merely the buyer of the service they provide, with all its warts.

 

I only see excuses all over the place and not REAL work. The only thing is all these excuses dished out sound so pathetic compared to the REAL world out there. Someone has to come up with a more creative and convincing excuses. Some time back a forumer posted a youtube video of star war in which yoda said "Do it or don't. There is no try." when advising Luke who was trying to force lift his X-wing fighter out of the swamp pit. The choice is his: remain in the pit or to fly. No ******** excuses. How aptly.

 

And here we get to the only part of your rant that I agree with. From my perception, Bioware has been dedicating too many developer resources to introducing new chrome and flash and glitz, while -- to all appearances -- dedicating too little to correcting long-standing bugs in the game. How much of this is due to the actual programming staff being limited in number, while the Art department -- with no programming skills -- can be readily tasked to cranking out new gear items that can be added to the game using existing developer tools, I can't say. And without knowing what the staffing situation is at Bioware, I can't say whether there is genuinely a severe inequity in the staff resources being devoted to bugfixing.

Edited January 5, 2014 by DmdShiva

[DmdShiva]

That is why Internet forums (gaming forums especially) are such wretched hives of scum and villainy.

 

Meh. As wretched hives of scum and villainy go, they're about average.

[Merouk]

Esselles bug still happening?

 

If I remember correctly, the last conversation involves going to light-speed and that's when the video card chokes on that damn animation with the stars becoming lines, and you get disconnected. You can get back in and the game should put you at the start of the conversation again, even if you're solo, and if you can manage to get past it without the videocard crapping out on you, you'll get the rewards.

 

The problem is that the rewards for the whole thing are AFTER that conversation. If they can't figure out what causes the video card to crap out at that "entering light speed" animation, they should offer the completion rewards BEFORE it. "Here are your rewards. Push a button on the panel over there to choose where you want to go. It's been great, bye."

[clericz]

Here's the issue, an hour spent working on bugs is an hour longer that it takes for them to finish the next new content. So it's a simple calculation:

 

If [insert bug here] value > New content

Then fix

Else develop new content

End

[Kiaxn]

Or the Exploit that allows Assassins/shadows to stay stealthed the entire 4 vs 4 WZ round and the survive the final kill all phase and win the round ( I report every player that does it) Edited January 5, 2014 by Kiaxn

[Aries_cz]

Or the Exploit that allows Assassins/shadows to stay stealthed the entire 4 vs 4 WZ round and the survive the final kill all phase and win the round ( I report every player that does it)

 

That is not an exploit of bug.

You can remain in stealth as long as you want, that is the games feature.

If someone enters stealth and you guys cannot find him until the sudden death kills you, that is your problem.

By logic, he has to be in the middle of the arena to avoid Sudden Death, so when you kill all his friends, and Sudden Death starts, just flood that area with AoEs. Assassin shows up, you kill him, problem solved

[AlexDougherty]

Or the Exploit that allows Assassins/shadows to stay stealthed the entire 4 vs 4 WZ round and the survive the final kill all phase and win the round ( I report every player that does it)

 

This isn't an exploit or bug, it is tactics, and bad taste, but you can stay stealthed (operatives too BTW) until you attack, and this isn't reportable so stop reporting it (bad showmanship yes, reportable not even close).

[Kryptonomic]

Here's the issue, an hour spent working on bugs is an hour longer that it takes for them to finish the next new content. So it's a simple calculation:

 

If [insert bug here] value > New content

Then fix

Else develop new content

End

 

Except it's not necessarily that simple. Sometimes the new content is now being written over -- and with -- the existing bug. Depending on the nature of the bug, that's like building your house on an uncertain foundation. Obviously not all bugs will be that bad,but if a bug is systemic and you now build new features on top of what is already a buggy infrastructure, not only can that bug be harder to fix later but you can also make the new content have systemic issues as well. (Sometimes new code even now starts to "depend" on the buggy code!)

 

As anyone who works in development -- whether game or otherwise -- knows, the "value proposition" for a bug is based on priority (business facing) and severity (technology facing). Unfortunately, this leads to weighting factors in many development shops that do not see the issue with a bug "hanging around for a little while longer", allowing said bugs to accumulate and, as I said, become systemic.

 

There's also the perception issue. If enough people keep reporting on a bug, even if it is relatively minor, it does lead to wide perception of "buggy software." That leads to negative views of the software. When you have numerous "little" bugs like that, it's the accumulated perception that matters. (Ask Microsoft about that.)

 

Again, as per my previous post here, I'm not arguing this makes Bioware "unprofessional." But there is no doubt in my mind that Bioware development is no different than any other development shop I've worked with. They do the same good and bad things as just about any other such shop.

Edited January 5, 2014 by JeffNyman

[_biddan_]

Then all MMOS are unprofessional. Don't you know how the song goes?

99 game breaking bug in the code

 

99 game breaking bugs

 

Take one down, patch it around

 

12,949,738 game breaking bugs in the code!

 

this guy, i mean...this guy, seriously, no i just...just give him a medal.