Why didn't Revan warn Old Republic about Sith Empire?

[Sadishist]

When he escaped Darth Nyriss, he could have gone back to Old Republic to warn, rather than facing Sith Emperor by himself and Exile/T3/Scrouge.

[Jandi]

When he escaped Darth Nyriss, he could have gone back to Old Republic to warn, rather than facing Sith Emperor by himself and Exile/T3/Scrouge.

 

Because the writer had to work within established timelines. No deeper mystery there.

[DarthDymond]

Because then the plot of SWTOR wouldn't have worked, and there wouldn't have been the same level of dramatic tension at the end of the novel (which is why TV cops never call in/wait for backup).

 

You want an in-universe reason? I'd say it's one of these two (or a combination):

 

1) Arrogance. Revan had just reclaimed his full power and memories, and had absolutely obliterated Nyriss. We know that both in his original life as the Revanchist and again after the mindwipe (as seen at the beginning of the novel) he generally thought of himself as knowing better than the Jedi Council (since the readers tend to agree with him, the arrogance that goes into that assumption is frequently forgotten).

 

Basically at this point he probably believed his own press as being a BAMF, and thought defeating the Emperor was his real chance at redemption for failing the first time and falling under the Emperor's power - and all the deaths he caused as a result. So he saw a chance to defeat this huge evil, thought that obviously he was up to the challenge, and rushed ahead without considering a wiser course of action. "Pride goeth before a Fall," after all (I know that's not the original phrase, but it is the more popular version of it) - think of it as Revan's "Tragic Flaw".

 

2) Guided by the Force. Revan may have been following the will of the Force (*cough*plot*cough*) by confronting the Emperor as he did.

 

In the end, the only reason the Republic was able to survive the initial Sith invasion was that Revan had been able to influence the Emperor's mind during his captivity into being overly cautious. If the Empire had attacked sooner, when the Republic was still recovering from the Jedi Civil War and the Jedi were just starting to recover from being practically wiped out during the Dark War/First Jedi Purge, the Sith would have likely succeeded.

 

If the Republic had learned of the Empire's existence, there is no way the Emperor would have waited as long as he did, Revan's mental influence or not. Even if the Republic didn't outright launch a preemptive attack on the Empire and jump-start the Great Galactic War early, the Empire had many spies in the Republic and would have learned that the Republic was onto them.

 

By that point, Revan being captured and thus able to subtly stall the Emperor's attack was the only way the Republic was going to survive. It was his destiny (*cough*plot*cough*) to be captured without ever alerting the Republic, and the Force may have been guiding him down that path.

[Sadishist]

Nice thoughts, Dymond, but it doesn't seem to fly. Should be some better explanations that exist. You have to keep in mind that the author of Revan quit Bioware to write novels, right?

[DarthDymond]

[Note: it's hard to tell sarcasm on a forum post, so my reply assumes you're sincere here and not taking a jab at D.K.]

\You have to keep in mind that the author of Revan quit Bioware to write novels, right?

What does that matter? I happen to like Karpyshyan's work, his Darth Bane trilogy are some of my favorite Star Wars novels. But even the best authors in the world are still going to have plot holes sometimes - it's a matter of whether they've kept them small enough and told a story that is compelling enough that you get swept along with it and don't notice, or at least are willing to suspend your disbelief.

 

At the end of the day, this:

Because the writer had to work within established timelines. No deeper mystery there.

is the real reason it happened.

 

The author had 300 pages to get from a firmly established Point A, to a firmly established Point B and tell an interesting story along the way, and some plot holes made their way into the end result. Even if the author noticed them, time taken to explain them away would have eaten into what might have been a firm page-count he had to work with, cutting material out elsewhere that he felt was more important to the story, or if there was no page-limit it would have royally messed with the pacing as the plot rolled towards the climax.

 

Sorry mate, you noticed the strings at the puppet show. There's no real reason in-universe for them to be there. Everything else is just making up excuses after that fact to give a willing suspension of disbelief a little help.

[Abydon]

Revan DID warn the Old Republic...In KOTOR 2 we are explained to us that Revan started the Mandalorian War to test the Republic so it would be able to fend off the impending invasion by the True Sith empire. What more of a warning do you need?

[Jandi]

Revan DID warn the Old Republic...In KOTOR 2 we are explained to us that Revan started the Mandalorian War to test the Republic so it would be able to fend off the impending invasion by the True Sith empire. What more of a warning do you need?

 

That was retconned away, like most of KoTOR 2 because BioWare doesn't like when other companies show just how shallow their own writing is.

[Euphrosyne]

The author had 300 pages to get from a firmly established Point A, to a firmly established Point B and tell an interesting story along the way, and some plot holes made their way into the end result. Even if the author noticed them, time taken to explain them away would have eaten into what might have been a firm page-count he had to work with, cutting material out elsewhere that he felt was more important to the story, or if there was no page-limit it would have royally messed with the pacing as the plot rolled towards the climax.

 

Sorry mate, you noticed the strings at the puppet show. There's no real reason in-universe for them to be there. Everything else is just making up excuses after that fact to give a willing suspension of disbelief a little help.

This would be more exculpatory if Karpyshyn wasn't one of the people who wrote Point A and Point B.

[LordGarmaZabi]

That was retconned away, like most of KoTOR 2 because BioWare doesn't like when other companies show just how shallow their own writing is.

 

It's been a while since they came out, but didn't KOTOR 1 have a significantly better reception then KOTOR 2 ?

Edited January 4, 2014 by LordGarmaZabi

[Selenial]

It's been a while since they came out, but didn't KOTOR 1 have a significantly better reception then KOTOR 2 ?

 

No, Kotor 2 was only criticised for them having to release early thanks to Lucasarts. It had a significantly better, more in depth and philosophical story. I loved them both, but I'd happily burn every copy of Kotor on the planet, for an hour of Kotor 2.

[AlexDougherty]

No, Kotor 2 was only criticised for them having to release early thanks to Lucasarts. It had a significantly better, more in depth and philosophical story. I loved them both, but I'd happily burn every copy of Kotor on the planet, for an hour of Kotor 2.

 

I liked them both, and I agree that Kotor 2 was superior, except for a rushed ending and a few parts missed completely, but I wouldn't destroy my copy of Kotor for a few hours of Kotor2. But I might consider it for a version of Kotor2 that hadn't been rushed (I know they did the fuller version BTW).

[Blackholeskipper]

Revan DID warn the Old Republic...In KOTOR 2 we are explained to us that Revan started the Mandalorian War to test the Republic so it would be able to fend off the impending invasion by the True Sith empire. What more of a warning do you need?

 

Wait, didn't he start the Jedi Civil War to test the Republic? He didn't know about the True Sith until after Mandalorian Wars when he started exploring the unknown territories and found the Star Forge, right?

 

No, Kotor 2 was only criticised for them having to release early thanks to Lucasarts. It had a significantly better, more in depth and philosophical story. I loved them both, but I'd happily burn every copy of Kotor on the planet, for an hour of Kotor 2.

 

This! Though I liked certain planets from the original Kotor more. Kashyyyk, Manaan, and Tatooine were all great. Telos kinda grows on you the more you play the game though. It just fits the theme of healing the wounds of the war so nicely.

 

I liked them both, and I agree that Kotor 2 was superior, except for a rushed ending and a few parts missed completely, but I wouldn't destroy my copy of Kotor for a few hours of Kotor2. But I might consider it for a version of Kotor2 that hadn't been rushed (I know they did the fuller version BTW).

 

Well, true but I played the game with mods. There's this awesome music mod that features music by Justin R. Durban. It really changes the whole feeling of the game and fits the theme much better. For me, this is the one essential mod for TSL. Here, if you're interested:

http://knightsoftheoldrepublic.filefront.com/file/TSL_Music_Replacement_Mod;67264

Edited January 4, 2014 by Blackholeskipper

[RevMg]

Wait, didn't he start the Jedi Civil War to test the Republic? He didn't know about the True Sith until after Mandalorian Wars when he started exploring the unknown territories and found the Star Forge, right?

 

He found out about them during the Mandalorian Wars by discovering ruins on Malachor V. The Jedi Civil War was out of his arrogance, as he wanted to replace the corrupted Republic with his own Empire, that he believed will be better suited to face the True Sith Empire threat. (reason for which in Ancient Rome you had dictators for times of war). His plans were however foiled by Malak, who wasn't aware of more complicated schemes, and who simply wanted to take over.

 

All of this was however retconned by TOR and no longer is true...

[Euphrosyne]

The Jedi Civil War was out of his arrogance, as he wanted to replace the corrupted Republic with his own Empire, that he believed will be better suited to face the True Sith Empire threat. (reason for which in Ancient Rome you had dictators for times of war).

Eh.

 

The republican Romans fought most wars under their typical constitutional system of two consuls. Only in the most extreme military circumstances were dictators voted. That's a fairly important point: dictatorial power could only be bestowed by the senate, and only lasted for a set amount of time. The typical form of dictatorship, the dictator rei gerundae causa ("...for the thing to be done", a euphemistic or catch-all reference to war), lasted six months. Dictators were also appointed for hilariously mundane tasks, like running certain elections.

 

The relevant point, though, is this: even Sulla and Caesar, who achieved their dictatorships in decidedly...nonstandard ways, still recognized that, legally, their power derived from the senate. They might have been holding a metaphorical knife to the senators' throats when they got that power, but the senate was still there; at least in terms of appearances, they were working within the framework of the Roman constitution. This doesn't bear any resemblance to Revan's initiation of the Jedi Civil War. Revan certainly doesn't look anything like the more prototypical Roman dictators, like Q. Fabius Maximus Cunctator or L. Quinctius Cincinnatus.

 

Put more bluntly, what Revan did had nothing to do with Roman dictators.

 

In KotOR II, Kreia blew a lot of smoke about what Revan was trying to accomplish with the Jedi Civil War. It's important to note that she acknowledged that what she said was never from the horse's mouth, as it were. She was probably projecting her own views, or her own understanding of Revan, rather than faithfully reflecting his thought processes, whatever they were. IIRC, she claimed that he was trying to temper the Republic's capacity for making war, thereby increasing its ability to resist and defeat the unknown enemy. The actual substance of the Jedi Civil War, even before SWTOR came out, strongly implied that Revan really was out for conquest. And if he was trying to take over the Republic to turn it against the Sith Empire, then isn't that really just bog-standard Sith tactics - "treachery is the way of the Sith" - rather than some murky, multifaceted, but ultimately high-minded plan?

[DarthDymond]

In KotOR II, Kreia blew a lot of smoke about what Revan was trying to accomplish with the Jedi Civil War. [...snip...] The actual substance of the Jedi Civil War, even before SWTOR came out, strongly implied that Revan really was out for conquest. [...snip]

 

This is something that has cropped up a couple times in Star Wars fiction, with or without the unreliable narrator/projecting views issue. We had Revan and the True Sith, and we also had Thrawn, who at some point it was claimed was supporting the Empire to prepare for the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. I have mixed feeling about taking a popular, fan-favorite bad guy, and making them a little less "bad" by saying after the fact that they were really just preparing for a larger threat.

 

I think it ultimately worked fine with Revan (who never really had much characterization in KOTOR 1 beyond being a brilliant tactician/leader) and Thrawn (who clearly favored "order" over "freedom" anyway, so this just gave him a stronger motivation to establish order ASAP rather than look for a balance), but it's a really dicey move.

 

Done properly, it can make an already interesting character even more interesting by adding some nuance and ambiguity. But done poorly, and it comes across as either blatant pandering (Fans: "Oh, the character I already liked is even more likeable now! Thank you authors! Take my money!") or simply using a popular character to shill for the latest threat de jour (Authors: "You thought Admiral Thrawn was bada**? Well get ready for the enemy even he was afraid of! Coming in 1999, pre-order now!").

 

Again, as it played out here with Revan, I think it worked - it helped differentiate him as something other than "Extremely powerful masked Sith Lord #1138, out to conquer the galaxy". But I swear I remember at one point they (or maybe just some fans) tried to imply the same thing with Palpatine, saying he only established the Empire in the first place so that the Galaxy would be ready for the Yuuzhan Vong. While I hope that was nothing more than a really weird fever dream I had, it's a perfect example of how this sort of "twist" can go very, very wrong.

Edited January 4, 2014 by DarthDymond

[DarthDymond]

He found out about them during the Mandalorian Wars by discovering ruins on Malachor V. The Jedi Civil War was out of his arrogance, as he wanted to replace the corrupted Republic with his own Empire, that he believed will be better suited to face the True Sith Empire threat. (reason for which in Ancient Rome you had dictators for times of war). His plans were however foiled by Malak, who wasn't aware of more complicated schemes, and who simply wanted to take over.

 

All of this was however retconned by TOR and no longer is true...

The big retcon in TOR was that Revan and Malak not only discovered the "True Sith" but confronted them and were put under the Emperor's mental compulsion as a result - making them Sith Lords and ordering them to conquer the Republic for the Empire without ever revealing the (True) Empire's existence.

 

But I don't think the retcon completely overrode Kreia's take on Revan. Even in TOR it was said that Revan had started to shake off the Emperor's mental commands, even before his defeat and mind wipe.

 

My impression was that, while he was still under the Emperor's compulsion enough that he was still "Darth" Revan and was attempting to establish a "Sith" Empire, he was able to subvert it enough that instead of conquering the Republic in order to hand it over to the Emperor with a nice bow on top, he was trying to conquer it so that the Galaxy would be strong enough to fight the True Sith.

 

I read the TOR retcon as helping to explain why it would have made sense to Revan to fight the Sith Empire by creating... a Sith Empire.

[RevMg]

Eh.

 

The republican Romans fought most wars under their typical constitutional system of two consuls. Only in the most extreme military circumstances were dictators voted. That's a fairly important point: dictatorial power could only be bestowed by the senate, and only lasted for a set amount of time. The typical form of dictatorship, the dictator rei gerundae causa ("...for the thing to be done", a euphemistic or catch-all reference to war), lasted six months. Dictators were also appointed for hilariously mundane tasks, like running certain elections.

 

The relevant point, though, is this: even Sulla and Caesar, who achieved their dictatorships in decidedly...nonstandard ways, still recognized that, legally, their power derived from the senate. They might have been holding a metaphorical knife to the senators' throats when they got that power, but the senate was still there; at least in terms of appearances, they were working within the framework of the Roman constitution. This doesn't bear any resemblance to Revan's initiation of the Jedi Civil War. Revan certainly doesn't look anything like the more prototypical Roman dictators, like Q. Fabius Maximus Cunctator or L. Quinctius Cincinnatus.

 

Put more bluntly, what Revan did had nothing to do with Roman dictators.

 

I was misunderstood. I used the connection only for the reason that stood behind both choices. That is, single military leader is better fit to make decisions during dire situations rather than political body like a senate which has to vote about every decision it makes.

 

It was never my intention to imply that there was any other connection between Roman dictators and Revan's case.

 

 

 

I read the TOR retcon as helping to explain why it would have made sense to Revan to fight the Sith Empire by creating... a Sith Empire.

 

There were enough reasons. Revan was young and arrogant. He experienced horror of war firsthand, what made him disdain Jedi. He found Sith teachings during the war, that fit better with what he lived through. That is also his reason for attack. He was so full of himself that he believed he would be better hope for people of the Republic, than the Jedi, who (in Revan's opinion) abandoned Republic's citizens during Mandalorian Wars.

 

That was what Obsidian gave us, a person with flaws, clever tactican, but young and arrogant. Bioware instead retconned him into a victim, making him more one dimensional than before.

[Beniboybling]

In KotOR II, Kreia blew a lot of smoke about what Revan was trying to accomplish with the Jedi Civil War. It's important to note that she acknowledged that what she said was never from the horse's mouth, as it were. She was probably projecting her own views, or her own understanding of Revan, rather than faithfully reflecting his thought processes, whatever they were. IIRC, she claimed that he was trying to temper the Republic's capacity for making war, thereby increasing its ability to resist and defeat the unknown enemy. The actual substance of the Jedi Civil War, even before SWTOR came out, strongly implied that Revan really was out for conquest. And if he was trying to take over the Republic to turn it against the Sith Empire, then isn't that really just bog-standard Sith tactics - "treachery is the way of the Sith" - rather than some murky, multifaceted, but ultimately high-minded plan?

It was probably a bit of both, Revan's feelings towards the end of the Mandalorian Wars were that it was weak and needed to become stronger, which is why he left to fight in the first place and fell to the dark side.

 

So I expect he thought that establishing a Sith Empire would be better for the galaxy, and make for a strong galaxy, it was an opportunity to overthrow the weak Republic and the Jedi Order who had proven their inferiority. The fact that a strong Sith Empire was lurking in the shadows waiting to strike probably just prompted him further.

 

I'd most definitely say that he perceived the Sith Empire to be a threat and wanted them destroyed.

 

EDIT: I don't think Traya was saying that Revan's actions were acceptable because he was trying to stop the Sith Empire, but that the whole idea of "falling to the dark side" is wrong, because its just another side of a coin - and in certain situations that side is more preferable than the other. The Republic was in bad shape, and Revan made it stronger, so what does it matter if he used the dark side to accomplish it, why should we call something better a "fall"?

Edited January 4, 2014 by Beniboybling

[LordGarmaZabi]

He was so full of himself that he believed he would be better hope for people of the Republic, than the Jedi, who (in Revan's opinion) abandoned Republic's citizens during Mandalorian Wars.

 

That was what Obsidian gave us, a person with flaws, clever tactican, but young and arrogant. Bioware instead retconned him into a victim, making him more one dimensional than before.

 

I don't get how Bioware retconned away the arrogant full of himself Revan, that description seems perfectly in line with how he is presented in The Foundry.

[Beniboybling]

No, Kotor 2 was only criticised for them having to release early thanks to Lucasarts. It had a significantly better, more in depth and philosophical story. I loved them both, but I'd happily burn every copy of Kotor on the planet, for an hour of Kotor 2.

Meany. Personally I haven't played either for a while, kinda dated now.

[Beniboybling]

The big retcon in TOR was that Revan and Malak not only discovered the "True Sith" but confronted them and were put under the Emperor's mental compulsion as a result - making them Sith Lords and ordering them to conquer the Republic for the Empire without ever revealing the (True) Empire's existence.

 

But I don't think the retcon completely overrode Kreia's take on Revan. Even in TOR it was said that Revan had started to shake off the Emperor's mental commands, even before his defeat and mind wipe.

 

My impression was that, while he was still under the Emperor's compulsion enough that he was still "Darth" Revan and was attempting to establish a "Sith" Empire, he was able to subvert it enough that instead of conquering the Republic in order to hand it over to the Emperor with a nice bow on top, he was trying to conquer it so that the Galaxy would be strong enough to fight the True Sith.

 

I read the TOR retcon as helping to explain why it would have made sense to Revan to fight the Sith Empire by creating... a Sith Empire.

Retcon? Remember what Traya said on at the end of the game?

 

“You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes.”

 

Revan didn't just go to Malachor, he went all the way into the Unknown Regions, it was established from the start that Revan physically discovered the True Sith, as in actually saw them, and returned. Leaving the big question of "who are the true sith" and "what happened" as it is implied in KOTOR that something happened which made Revan come back as a Sith Lord, something more than some old dusty ruins. Which is revealed to be a meeting with the Sith Emperor.

 

Personally I was quite amazed at how long this has been under construction, and I always wonder how much had actually been planned out about the True Sith before SWTOR came along...

 

But yeah, no retcon here.

[Euphrosyne]

Revan didn't just go to Malachor, he went all the way into the Unknown Regions, it was established from the start that Revan physically discovered the True Sith, as in actually saw them, and returned.

It's a shame that Dromund Kaas was nowhere near the Unknown Regions.

[LordGarmaZabi]

It's a shame that Dromund Kaas was nowhere near the Unknown Regions.

 

I thought the Unknown Regions is just uncharted territory.

[Beniboybling]

It's a shame that Dromund Kaas was nowhere near the Unknown Regions.

While technically in Sith Space, as the above poster said "Unknown Regions" is merely a term for uncharted areas of space. And given that Dromund Kaas was at the time "lost" it is technically in the unknown regions.

[DarthDymond]

Retcon? Remember what Traya said on at the end of the game?

 

“You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes.”

 

Revan didn't just go to Malachor, he went all the way into the Unknown Regions, it was established from the start that Revan physically discovered the True Sith, as in actually saw them, and returned. Leaving the big question of "who are the true sith" and "what happened" as it is implied in KOTOR that something happened which made Revan come back as a Sith Lord, something more than some old dusty ruins. Which is revealed to be a meeting with the Sith Emperor.

 

Personally I was quite amazed at how long this has been under construction, and I always wonder how much had actually been planned out about the True Sith before SWTOR came along...

 

But yeah, no retcon here.

While "retcon" is frequently used to describe when something has been outright changed or overwritten, "retroactive continuity" can also mean when a later work adds information that in-universe had already informed prior events. From the wikipedia entry:

Some retcons do not necessarily directly contradict previously established facts but instead fill in missing background details, usually to support current plot points. [Author Roy Thomas, who popularized the phrase,] referred to "retroactive continuity" in this sense, as a purely additive process that did not undo any previous work

Heck one of the dictionary usage examples for "retcon" at dictionary.com is "Darth Vader was retconned into Luke Skywalker's father in The Empire Strikes Back." (I was going to use Leia being Luke's sister as an example, before I found that)

 

The SWTOR retcon does get close to being the type that overwrites/changes previous facts when it says that Revan became Darth Revan as a servant of the Emperor (even an unwilling one). If you take KOTOR 1 by itself, its pretty well implied that fighting the Mandalorian Wars turned Revan dark, and finding the Rakata and the Star Forge are what inspired him to create an Empire.

 

KOTOR 2 didn't contradict anything, but it did add in the notion of him learning of the True Sith, but again made no indication that he was acting on their behalf. When Kreia says Revan went into the Unknown Regions, she was talking about where he went after the events of KOTOR 1, not what he was up to between the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. Even if there were implications in KOTOR 2 that he came face-to-face with the True Sith in the Unknown Regions prior to the Jedi Civil War, there is certainly no indication he was ever their agent.

 

Adding in the notion that Revan was working on the True Sith's behalf, at least initially, is the retcon. It retroactively changed our perception of what was going on with Revan in those prior works.