Perceived issues with GSF balance.

[Flearos]

After playing GSF for a few weeks, I think if we all take an honest look at the game balance is really quite good. This is a game almost entirely based on skill. Ive only really seen a few things id like to see changed. I would like to see what other people think of balance and what needs changed based on reason rather than the clasic "this op... nerf". Here are my thoughts.

 

Bypass imho should be removed. On a flashfire its quite easy kill in less than a second. Drop in on their tail and hit bypass 2 burst cannon shots later, kill, takes less than a second. I don't think this should happen, its just discouraging to players, especially new ones.

 

Armor pierce. I'm mainly referring to burst cannons and slug guns. Missiles and torps its seems fine, in fact necessary for these to retain any amount of usefulness. Between the lock on time and limited ammo its rare to be hit by one of these. Armor pierce also forces people to chose evasion armor given that any armor bonus is well useless against many weapons, and it negates charged platting as a shield choice (correct me if i am wrong but it seems like a slug gun cuts right through armor, as in have armor stacked and skill active, should be i think 96% reduction, hit by rail gun hull goes orange. Orange is about half health so about 600-700 damage to hull which is about what gets through shields shield block i believe 60%. Going off the top of me head.)

 

Ion rail-gun. Love taps have got to go. The debuff and drain should only apply if the cannon is at least 50% charged or better yet introduce the scaling debuff as suggest else where.

 

What does everyone else think?

[LeonBraun]

Right now I'm the least effective on my gunship, but I hear people talking of how OP they are, so I know I just need more practice on them. I'd like to be able to do well in a gunship, and I know it's possible as I've seen some very good gunship players.

 

The best indication I have that things seem to be balanced well, is that I've seen each ship be able to dominate and be highly effective in the right hands. I've seen a lot of the same folks do well in which ever fighter they are playing at the time, so that's a good indication that the biggest balance factor in GSF is actually player skill.

[renegadeimp]

Remove armour piercing and shield pen from railguns and you may as well bring in a cartel paint job that read " Free kill here". Complete with flashing lights that can be seen across the entire map.

[ToMyMa]

Well, apart from a few adjustments here and there, like a slight buff to strikers, GSF is pretty balanced. People complaining about FlashFires and Gunships just need to not fly straight, but fly erratically.

[mr_sim]

After playing GSF for a few weeks, I think if we all take an honest look at the game balance is really quite good. This is a game almost entirely based on skill. Ive only really seen a few things id like to see changed. I would like to see what other people think of balance and what needs changed based on reason rather than the clasic "this op... nerf". Here are my thoughts.

 

Bypass imho should be removed. On a flashfire its quite easy kill in less than a second. Drop in on their tail and hit bypass 2 burst cannon shots later, kill, takes less than a second. I don't think this should happen, its just discouraging to players, especially new ones.

 

Armor pierce. I'm mainly referring to burst cannons and slug guns. Missiles and torps its seems fine, in fact necessary for these to retain any amount of usefulness. Between the lock on time and limited ammo its rare to be hit by one of these. Armor pierce also forces people to chose evasion armor given that any armor bonus is well useless against many weapons, and it negates charged platting as a shield choice (correct me if i am wrong but it seems like a slug gun cuts right through armor, as in have armor stacked and skill active, should be i think 96% reduction, hit by rail gun hull goes orange. Orange is about half health so about 600-700 damage to hull which is about what gets through shields shield block i believe 60%. Going off the top of me head.)

 

Ion rail-gun. Love taps have got to go. The debuff and drain should only apply if the cannon is at least 50% charged or better yet introduce the scaling debuff as suggest else where.

 

What does everyone else think?

 

I pretty much agree with everything though "ion love tap" I've heard but haven't really noticed, so don't know about it.

 

Also black bolt/ Nova dive needs a little less accuracy at longer range, it seems that rapid fire cannons are more accurate on a scout then on strikers. Which makes no sense as striker is a more stable platform though I'd settle for them being even.

 

The other thing is the awards. They seem to favor certain roles over others.

[mr_sim]

Well, apart from a few adjustments here and there, like a slight buff to strikers, GSF is pretty balanced. People complaining about FlashFires and Gunships just need to not fly straight, but fly erratically.

 

If you've ever had striker vs striker combat you would realize how balanced the striker really is. No IMO striker is the most balanced based on it's performance in striker vs striker and striker vs gunship is very much on track. It's the damn scouts thought, yes flashfires are supposed to be the natural predator of strikers but they are burning them down at a ludicrous rate ATM so much so that strikers cannot adapt.

[Flearos]

Remove armour piercing and shield pen from railguns and you may as well bring in a cartel paint job that read " Free kill here". Complete with flashing lights that can be seen across the entire map.

 

Could you perhaps expand on why exactly you feel this way?

 

I'm fine with shield pen, heck if they lower the armor pierce you can have more shield pen to compensate. My argument when it comes to armor pierce is simple. One weapon upgrade should not completely negate an entire armor component as well as shield component (charged plating).

Edited December 27, 2013 by Flearos

[Lymain]

If you've ever had striker vs striker combat you would realize how balanced the striker really is. No IMO striker is the most balanced based on it's performance in striker vs striker and striker vs gunship is very much on track. It's the damn scouts thought, yes flashfires are supposed to be the natural predator of strikers but they are burning them down at a ludicrous rate ATM so much so that strikers cannot adapt.

 

You seem to want a slower pace for combat in general. Personally, I have no problem reacting to damage in my strike fighters.

[LeonBraun]

If you've ever had striker vs striker combat you would realize how balanced the striker really is. No IMO striker is the most balanced based on it's performance in striker vs striker and striker vs gunship is very much on track. It's the damn scouts thought, yes flashfires are supposed to be the natural predator of strikers but they are burning them down at a ludicrous rate ATM so much so that strikers cannot adapt.

 

This is not true at all... I play both of these, and they both have strengths and weaknesses. Both can dominate in the hands of skilled pilots. I've personally been killed by each while playing the other fighter, I've also killed each while playing the other fighter.

 

Both should be able to kill the other given player skill and fighter preference, that is the point. It should be happening and it is. It's all about skill and fighter preference among players.

 

Strikers are easier to fly, easier to get a kill on. Scouts take more skill to fly and more skill to get a kill, but are equally as effective in the right pilots hands. I've seen each fighter dominate in the right player's hands, and no one single fighter more than the other after several hundred matches.

Edited December 27, 2013 by LeonBraun

[renegadeimp]

Could you perhaps expand on why exactly you feel this way?

 

I'm fine with shield pen, heck if they lower the armor pierce you can have more shield pen to compensate. My argument when it comes to armor pierce is simple. One weapon upgrade should not completely negate an entire armor component as well as shield component (charged plating).

 

Simple. Without those bonuses to weapons, Gunships may as well be deleted from the game. To offset it and make GS's viable after your changes, you would have to beef up their defences and give them more blaster damage/mods, as well as vastly increased speed and manoeuvrability.

 

Play a mastered GS. We rely on those bonuses to damage an enemy. Otherwise they would take half a dozen hits to kill at full charge.

[Sharee]

Armor pierce. I'm mainly referring to burst cannons and slug guns. Missiles and torps its seems fine, in fact necessary for these to retain any amount of usefulness. Between the lock on time and limited ammo its rare to be hit by one of these. Armor pierce also forces people to chose evasion armor given that any armor bonus is well useless against many weapons, and it negates charged platting as a shield choice (correct me if i am wrong but it seems like a slug gun cuts right through armor, as in have armor stacked and skill active, should be i think 96% reduction, hit by rail gun hull goes orange. Orange is about half health so about 600-700 damage to hull which is about what gets through shields shield block i believe 60%. Going off the top of me head.)

 

You got it backwards. People don't stack evasion because armor pierce makes armor useless. The other way around, armor pierce is useless because no one is using armor since evasion is so good

 

Okay more serious now, armor pierce is not useless but basically only because it allows turrets to be killed very fast. People however are skipping charged plating because its a bad shield. It gives everyone permanent 50% shield penetration against you in exchange for being able to resist damage once in a while. That's just a bad deal, since shields repair themselves but hull doesn't (nevermind that pitiful 260 damage once a minute).

[Grayseven]

Simple. Without those bonuses to weapons, Gunships may as well be deleted from the game. To offset it and make GS's viable after your changes, you would have to beef up their defences and give them more blaster damage/mods, as well as vastly increased speed and manoeuvrability.

 

Play a mastered GS. We rely on those bonuses to damage an enemy. Otherwise they would take half a dozen hits to kill at full charge.

 

Gunships, in their current iteration, are Primary weapons systems that allow them to basically farm scouts and strikes until someone gets in close to them.

 

Remove the OP penetration and they become Support platforms that can provide overwatch support on an objective.

 

I play a GS with only 2nd tier mods on primary, mostly full mods on secondary and I damage and destroy enemy ships just fine. The mechanic requiring blaster charge to hold a full power shot could be gotten rid of to allow GS's to provide support and do damage equal to scouts and strikes as long as the weapon mods that allow negation of shields and armor completely went away...as well as getting rid of the ion gun "love tap".

 

The problem with GS's is that they are just too dominant because they can one shot. PvP isn't fun when a particular portion of it is dominated by one thing...ground or space...and when fight strategies are forced around a specific ship you know you have problems.

 

Face it, you don't see guides on how to deal with a scout, or a strike do you? No, because scouts and strikes don't have mechanics that unbalance the game in their favor.

[DanNV]

As I said in my thread, the issue isn't so much balance as it is the cumulative effect of bonuses. The stacked bonuses and crew abilities takes something reasonable and makes it OP quick. That's what needs to be fixed. The rest of the game is really pretty good.

[Itkovian]

Okay more serious now, armor pierce is not useless but basically only because it allows turrets to be killed very fast. People however are skipping charged plating because its a bad shield. It gives everyone permanent 50% shield penetration against you in exchange for being able to resist damage once in a while. That's just a bad deal, since shields repair themselves but hull doesn't (nevermind that pitiful 260 damage once a minute).

 

Actually, no. On paper Charged Plating looks like a very good deal, if you focus your build on Damage Reduction. With it you can get 90%+ damage reduction for 19 seconds every 30 seconds, which is very good. Sure, the rest of the time you take hull damage directly, which is nasty, but that's the price you pay for near-invulnerability most of the time.

 

So hey, at first it looks like an excellent high-risk, high-reward shield system that BONUS is unique to Strikes, giving us strike pilots a neat gameplay mechanic. Yay.

 

Unfortunately, it turns out that everybody and their uncle has armour penetration, which instantly makes Charged Plating useless. And I mean _useless_, as these are weapons practically everyone is using right now. Slug Railguns get 100% armor pen at tier 3 (meaning EVERY GUNSHIP has it), which RIGHT THERE is enough to make Charged Plating useless. Add to that Burst Lasers (hands down the BEST lasers in the game right now), Heavy Lasers, Concussion Missiles, and Rockets (and proton torpedoes, but those are least have very long lock times and are easily avoided).

 

With so many very popular weapons bypassing damage resistance, you would have to be suicidal to use Charged Plating. This is not a good situaiton, and should be rectified. Perhaps Tier 3 Charged Plating should have some option that protects against armour penetration. Either way, nobody uses Charged Plating now, which is a good indicator that it needs some sort of upgrade.

 

Thank you.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Itkovian

[renegadeimp]

Simple answer to the slug railgun. Keep its armour piercing etc. But move it to tier 4 and place a debuff on capacitor regen speed. Say 40% or something.

 

I'm not that good with numbers, but im sure the devs can work on a way to overhaul many skills in GSF. IMO they are on the right track, but they do need some tweaking as skills like bypass are just WAY too strong in the current game.

[Verain]

Simple. Without those bonuses to weapons, Gunships may as well be deleted from the game.

 

I main a gunship, and this is not accurate. The nerfherders HAVE proposed things that would delete gunships, but removal of the weapons entirely ignoring whole components of the fight wouldn't do it.

 

Play a mastered GS. We rely on those bonuses to damage an enemy. Otherwise they would take half a dozen hits to kill at full charge.

 

This is a WILD OVERSTATEMENT.

 

Most ships don't have that much armor to begin with. The way to get the most armor is with charged plating, an upgrade that literally no one can use because of the number of 100% armor ignore things in the game, slug railgun leading the charge. If a gunship had to deal with 20% mitigation (a typical amount if someone stopped using lightweight armor long enough to wear something else), it wouldn't end the day. Certainly it wouldn't if the 100% armor ignore was changed to 50%.

 

Bypass will, I'm SURE, be nerfed. It is too good for everyone. Without bypass, gunship one shots versus full shield/health guys will go away. It's less certain if the "ignore armor entirely" thing will go away or not, but my assumption would be that it will be nerfed, because it isn't fair. Meanwhile, I hope that some other gun (plasma is my pick) gets some measure of evasion ignore. This would change the meta such that some players would actually want to pick different offenses and defenses, a much more lively meta.

[Nocher]

As long as you have someone calling out the gunships for the scouts to kill, and the gunships aren't going to the same place to snipe every time they die, it ends up being a pretty fun fight between them and the other classes.

 

 

Also, bypass should probably be nerfed down a little bit, killing a gunship on my scout in 2 seconds is a bit rediculous, 3 seconds would be much fairer.

[Verain]

(and proton torpedoes, but those are least have very long lock times and are easily avoided).

 

That's not the reason proton torpedos are fine. They are fine because their max damage is rather low, given all the restrictions that they have (very long lock on time being the big one). The damage is low BECAUSE they do "true damage", piercing all shields and armor.

 

 

The thing is like... I get having stuff that ignores armor. But does so damned much of it have to ignore ALL the armor? I mean, burst laser is the scattergun version, it's inaccurate and the "shotgun" of the game. So it gets 100% armor pen as a talent? Whyyyyyy?

 

The charged plating build is a reason why armor pen has to exist. The problem is, it's not like some abilities get 50% armor pen. MANY abilities get 100%.

[Sharee]

Actually, no. On paper Charged Plating looks like a very good deal, if you focus your build on Damage Reduction. With it you can get 90%+ damage reduction for 19 seconds every 30 seconds, which is very good. Sure, the rest of the time you take hull damage directly, which is nasty, but that's the price you pay for near-invulnerability most of the time.

 

Charged plating does not passively grant any damage reduction, you just get the passive 5% all strikes get.

 

When you activate the ability, you get extra 60% on top of that. It is active 19 seconds every 30 seconds, but it is only 65% damage reduction, not 90%+.

 

You can get 90%+ damage reduction if you use copilot ability, however that only lasts for 6 seconds, not 19.

[Lymain]

Charged plating does not passively grant any damage reduction, you just get the passive 5% all strikes get.

 

When you activate the ability, you get extra 60% on top of that. It is active 19 seconds every 30 seconds, but it is only 65% damage reduction, not 90%+.

 

You can get 90%+ damage reduction if you use copilot ability, however that only lasts for 6 seconds, not 19.

 

Base (5%) + T3 Deflection Armor (20%) + Structural Support (9%) = 34% passive.

[Sharee]

Base (5%) + T3 Deflection Armor (20%) + Structural Support (9%) = 34% passive.

 

Right. I didn't count armor because i am using Star guard when flying a strike(Don't have Pike unlocked even). Star guard does not have an armor slot. But, point taken.