ineverpost Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 reserved for rage Still waiting for rage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcadesSabboth Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) I have a question about Massacre vs. Vicious Slash for a level 50 Carnage Marauder. I was planning to spec 3/31/7, taking 3/3 Enraged Slash from the Annihilation tree and up to 2/2 Brutality from the Rage tree. I understand that Massacre typically replaces Vicious Slash given that the Ataru proc plus base damage is roughly the same as a Vicious Slash, but you get the added benefit of the 6s of +30% Ataru proc chance. My question is: Does Vicious Slash still have a place for Carnage Marauders if you have +15% crit chance (2/2 Brutality)? I would still weave Massacre into the rotation for the guaranteed crit on Force Scream and increased Ataru proc chance, but Vicious Slash seems like a better rage dump if it comes with +15% crit chance. Unfortunately, Brutality does not appear to modify Massacre given its tool tip. I recognize that it might be difficult to use more than 1 Vicious Slash and still keep the Massacre buff up, but it seems like Vicious Slash would be a better finishing move or situational strike when you really need the crit (PvP) instead of the increased chance of Ataru procs for longer fights (PvE). Thoughts? Am I missing something in my analysis? Edited January 3, 2012 by ArcadesSabboth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasymodeX Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Thoughts? Am I missing something in my analysis? You are missing 2 things in the analysis, but I'm not going to list them. Massacre > Vicious. Don't bother spending the points into the talent that buffs Vicious if you are 31+ Carnage. Find better stuff to invest in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bklynfinest Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Normally you don't want to double dip into another tree before you get your 31 point talent, however I can say you'll want to use Force Choke before Smash for the 100% damage increase. Thanks - that makes sense since I didn’t realize they stacked. What makes sense after Ravage? Ideally I would do: Obliterate -> Vicious Slash -> Battering Assault (back from CD by then) and then another Smash (albeit at lower dmg bc Choke is still on CD) At what point, if any, does it make sense to start spamming vicious slashes when you have a lot of rage built up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xO_om Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Massacre > Vicious. Don't bother spending the points into the talent that buffs Vicious if you are 31+ Carnage. Find better stuff to invest in. I agree, EasymodeX has figured it out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcadesSabboth Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 You are missing 2 things in the analysis, but I'm not going to list them. Massacre > Vicious. Don't bother spending the points into the talent that buffs Vicious if you are 31+ Carnage. Find better stuff to invest in. Then why bother posting at all? If you can't backup your opinion (and that's what it is) with simple logic, don't bother posting at all. I doubt anyone here is impressed with what I can only assume is a sad attempt to sound superior. If you have something worthwhile to contribute, I'm all ears, but save the drivel for your 3rd grade friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xO_om Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) Yes, Sever is the main reason that Massacre is favorable to Vicious Slash. With regards specifically to PvP, I can't say one way or the other which ability will be more efficient in the situation you described. However, remember Massacre's 100% chance to trigger Blood Frenzy if it's not already up, plus the Ataru Strike chance buff, both of which are beneficial if you plan to attack anyone in the following 6 seconds. For these reasons, I prefer to refrain from ever using Vicious Slash. Could it be that VS is optimal in specific PvP situations? Possibly. If it is, I'd guess it's extremely marginal, and to me never worth adding a 40th thing to manage Edited January 3, 2012 by xO_om Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcloudx Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Anakin used Shien/Djem So, and while wearing the mask he developed a personalized style of Djem So. I was about to roll another char as a jugg after hearing that so i could go vengeance/shien build but after checking into their dps ability i'm sticking with your carnage build as I've seen it work for me on my other char. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibaken Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Not listing the two things he was missing is kind of odd to me, however I'm not going to start an e-thug contest over it. In short, if you're Carnage you won't use Vicious Slash. Ataru Mastery and Sever both make Massacre head and shoulders above Vicious Slash; for PvE or PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ineverpost Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Can we get a sticky on this!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyWorX Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Also don't forget that massacre costs 1 rage with berserker up which makes it best dmg/rage ability Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibaken Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Also don't forget that massacre costs 1 rage with berserker up which makes it best dmg/rage ability This is actually false. It costs 2 rage but refunds 1. In theory, yes, it only costs 1, however it still requires 2 to activate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ainq Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Good work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyWorX Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 This is actually false. It costs 2 rage but refunds 1. In theory, yes, it only costs 1, however it still requires 2 to activate. It still costs 1 rage. And yes I know it requires 2 points to activate but I bearly find myself rage starved to the point I can't use massacre with berserker up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibaken Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 It still costs 1 rage. And yes I know it requires 2 points to activate but I bearly find myself rage starved to the point I can't use massacre with berserker up. Understandable, however it is confusing to some people since they're used to it only "costing" 2 rage to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caeltos Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 To be honest, the opening combo is all wrong. You start with Charge -> Massacre/Battering Assault -> Gore -> Ravage (Massacre procs/normal swings work on each melee swing from Ravage, + The Gore Effect is still in play, meaning each hit will pierce through 100% armor during this duration) > Scream (Guaranteed crit) It will deal an INSANE amount of burst, and I've used this through-out my leveling process and I'm topping damage charters continously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodymoon Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) To be honest, the opening combo is all wrong. You start with Charge -> Massacre/Battering Assault -> Gore -> Ravage (Massacre procs/normal swings work on each melee swing from Ravage, + The Gore Effect is still in play, meaning each hit will pierce through 100% armor during this duration) > Scream (Guaranteed crit) It will deal an INSANE amount of burst, and I've used this through-out my leveling process and I'm topping damage charters continously. Yes, this is ideal. Also, I am currently at 102,40% Accuracy and do NOT miss or have a parry when standing behind bosses (neither in Normal nor Nightmare mode). So I assume that 100% Accuracy is enough. Imho more is not needed, since the offhand does usually only half of my mainhand damage and would need an insane Accuracy amount to reach 100%. Which is why I first try to go to 350 Surge rating, which seems to be a good spot in regards to the dimishing return. It reeeeally goes up very fast... Edited January 4, 2012 by Bloodymoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibaken Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) Yes, this is ideal. Also, I am currently at 102,40% Accuracy and do NOT miss or have a parry when standing behind bosses (neither in Normal nor Nightmare mode). So I assume that 100% Accuracy is enough. Imho more is not needed, since the offhand does usually only half of my mainhand damage and would need an insane Accuracy amount to reach 100%. Which is why I first try to go to 350 Surge rating, which seems to be a good spot in regards to the dimishing return. It reeeeally goes up very fast... That is what I have as my opener. Is that Special Accuracy or Normal Accuracy? Your special is higher and if your normal is around 102% your special is probably around 115ish, that's about where mine is. Edited January 4, 2012 by Kibaken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkennoodles Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Great work on the guide so far! I'm interested to see what you think about annihilation (my current spec) and rage. Keep up the good work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodymoon Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 That is what I have as my opener. Is that Special Accuracy or Normal Accuracy? Your special is higher and if your normal is around 102% your special is probably around 115ish, that's about where mine is. Yes, it is that way. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/statsabh.png/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draexnael Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Yes, this is ideal. Also, I am currently at 102,40% Accuracy and do NOT miss or have a parry when standing behind bosses (neither in Normal nor Nightmare mode). So I assume that 100% Accuracy is enough. Imho more is not needed, since the offhand does usually only half of my mainhand damage and would need an insane Accuracy amount to reach 100%. Which is why I first try to go to 350 Surge rating, which seems to be a good spot in regards to the dimishing return. It reeeeally goes up very fast... Bosses have a 360 parry its not like Wow - so sorry thats wrong. Also offhand does around 30% of your MH dmg its pretty much a stat stick atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodymoon Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Read the thing behind the words you have bolded, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanzel Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) Also offhand does around 30% of your MH dmg its pretty much a stat stick atm. 66%, baseline is 30% without mandatory talents. Edited January 4, 2012 by Kanzel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallymon Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 A 100% increase in armor penetration is not the same as 100% armor penetration. Big big difference there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasymodeX Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 A 100% increase in armor penetration is not the same as 100% armor penetration. Big big difference there. Fortunately, Gore provides 100% armor penetration. Since players have 0 inherent armor penetration, an increase to 0 by 100% is still zero. Gore manages to actually increase damage to tooltip levels, which means it's functioning to the spirit of its design of "IGNORE ARMOR". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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