Suggested 'Annihilation' changes

[tadeoosh]

A word of explanation – I am, always have and most likely will always be an avid fan of Annihilation spec. I’m no pro gamer, just a casual who happens to do some random pvp once in a while, so I acknowledge the fact that I’m prone to being wrong about my perception of the class.

 

Nevertheless, while there was generally nothing wrong about utilizing Juyo in pvp before 2.0, the patch seemed to change quite a lot. On several different occasions I happened to be openly scolded by other players who spotted my Juyo stance and was deemed as “worthless” and “useless” even though the matches hadn’t even started. Even the fact that I surpassed those people in terms of medals earned and damage dealt at the end of the matches (though I didn’t perform outstandingly well either) did nothing to change their point of view.

 

So, after some personal testing on both Rage and Carnage specs after 2.0, it appears to me that the patch indeed changed Annihilation’s place in pvp. Rage was always about a big, bursty area attack, so no surprise it’s still a popular and viable pvp spec. Carnage, on the other hand, used to be a bit underpowered in terms of long-term damage as compared to Annihilation before 2.0, but it had that pretty well compensated by a vast arsenal of utility tools that in the right hands were enough to turn the tide of the game; having their damage output increased to the point of easily beating Annihilation in both short- and long-lasting duels pretty much outclassed Annihilation in about every aspect in pvp.

 

Since I’m a firm – though possibly naive – believer that all classes should be able to present some usefulness in pvp and that no spec should be immediately deemed as either pvp or pve, I came up with some potential changes to the Annihilation spec that would make it a bit more competitive in warzones and arenas. I don’t do pve, but I’ve seen enough posts about a relative balance in how marauders perform in ops to know that affecting damage output isn’t the right thing to do. And even though I’m tempted to suggest moving some utility skills (like Displacement) from Carnage or Rage to Annihilation tree, I’m pretty sure I would be instantly flamed by their fans, so I won’t even try this:)

 

So, there goes my list of ideas:

 

 

Suggestion no.1:

 

- Agonizing Sabers skill also makes Marauder’s bleed effects uncleansable.

 

Reason:

 

Even though I’m aware that Mandess trees required a buff in pvp, I was surprised that of all dot-dependent specs it was them who were deemed as needing dot protection most and not us. 2.0 Patch made Annihilation even more dependent on bleed effects than it used to be before – not only in terms of rough damage, but also for generating rage, inflicting debuffs and self-healing. Annihilation is the only dot spec in the game that can’t carelessly spam their dots without worrying about cooldowns, so we need to be painstakingly precise when carrying out our onslaught. Cleansing one (or both) stacks of our bleeds really hurts Marauders’ damage output and resource management, so I believe that if BW continues introducing uncleansable dots, it is us who should be next in line to get it.

 

 

 

Suggestion no.2:

 

- Blood Ward also causes taking damage to reduce the current cooldown of Saber Ward by 1 second; the effect cannot occur more than once per 3s.

 

Reason:

 

Blood Ward is a purely pvp skill that buffs Marauders’ survivability - but apart from its short usefulness, its 3min cooldown was quite a hindrance to use it properly. I was hesitant to put it as ‘occuring once per 1.5s’, as it might make it too powerful (Saber Ward is a very strong skill itself), but I believe that having its cooldown reduced by just that much to potentially allow using it about twice in a prolonged arena match would actually make the skill truly worth investing points into.

 

 

 

Suggestion no.3:

 

- Seeping Wound: Rupture in Juyo Form has a [50/100]% chance to immobilize the target for 1 second and slow its movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds.

 

Reason:

 

Given the snares and roots of two other trees, I believe that Annihilation could use a small bonus in this department. This little one-second root should make Annihilation Maras offer some competitive utility when it’s needed most without completely breaking the class (we wouldn’t want the things to be too easy, would we?). I’m not sure if any Carnage players still happen to put points into this ability, but I don’t think they need another root in their arsenal – hence the Juyo Form requirement, just in case.

 

 

Suggestion no.4:

 

- Hungering causes critical hits with bleed effects to heal the Marauder for [1/2]% of his health.

 

Reason:

 

This one may be a bit over the edge, but still I think that Annihilation could use this small health bonus (though certainly not in conjunction with Blood Ward buff I suggested earlier, as it would be too much), given that our survivability was a bit nerfed after 2.0 because of both lower critical rating scaling at 55lvl as compared to previous 50 as well as reconstructing the tree to make Annihilation players decide between Dual Mastery (burst) and Malice (sustained)… well, at least in terms of pvp builds. The recent Undying Rage nerf, though completely justifiable and reasonable, lowered our survivability even more, removing the possibility of smacking the button and safely healing-up in Berserk as to ask for round two. Annihilation is a spec with a build-up time (and it hurts in burst-oriented pvp), so having some limited though reliable self-sustainment in order to at least make it to maxing Juyo stacks would not hurt. Speaking of which…

 

 

Suggestion no.5:

 

- Indefatigable Onslaught also causes all melee attacks to apply an additional stack of Juyo Form.

 

Reason:

 

I’m pretty sure I’ll be flamed for that, but I’ll give it a try anyway. As I mentioned before, burst is generally what counts in critical moments, and I believe that a change like this (or a similar one, should this one prove too powerful) should make Annihilation tree a bit more ‘responsive’ in situations where burst is in high demand. I wouldn’t even dream of stacking full stacks of Annihilator in most pvp fights, but Juyo Form is what we are generally required to max in order to achieve our full potential in combat.

 

 

EDIT: Moved here from my following post

Suggestion no.6

 

Blurred Speed: In addition to previous effects, the skill gives Predation a [50%/100%] to purge all movement-impairing effects when activated.

 

Reason:

 

Pretty much what some of you mentioned - Annihilation is lacking in the area of being able to break roots and snares once in a while. I've actually found myself using Predation more often than Berserk for the extra combat speed (Annihilation is lacking in mobility compared to Carnage speed boost and Rage second gap-closer), unless I badly needed an emergency heal. With the newly-introduced allowance for building Fury during Predation (meaning that it would be active most of the times), I think this addition would be a fair way of giving Annihilation Maras some freedom of movement while not getting over the edge too much, as you still need to spend precious Fury. And though I am a bit tempted to suggest that the skill purge the root of the Marauder and his allies in range, I'm fairly certain this would break the class completely and that's without doubt not what we want:D

The reason I put it in Blurred Speed is that I wouldn't suggest creating a separate skill for that - we are already a bit low on points when trying to grab all useful skills. Blurred Speed is tier 3, so it's practically out of reach of other 2 specs unless they're willing to forfeit Massacre/Force Crush just to get this one.

 

 

 

As a side note – I’m not seeing to make Annihilation overshadow other specs in pvp, far be it from me. I know it’s generally thought of as a pve build and that’s fine by me, it’s just that all my suggestions here are meant to make it just a little bit more competitive in pvp than it is currently. I like the tree for being both challenging and hard to master, so please don’t treat it as my ultimate ‘wish list’ for the spec – implementing all these suggestions at once would most likely make the class too strong, and that’s far from what I have in mind. They are here to just point at things which I find a bit unsatisfactory in the current performance of Annihilation maras in pvp.

 

And lastly – yes, I’m well aware there are other classes that are in a dire need of a fast revamp, so please don’t bother reminding me about that, I can gladly take my place in the line I’d much appreciate some constructive criticism in response, so please refrain from posting ‘No’, ‘Never’ or ‘You’re an idiot’ comments:)

Edited December 16, 2013 by tadeoosh

[ShadowMudkip]

Suggestions 2 and 4 were the best. Absolutely, under no circumstances should any spec have uncleansable dots. Unless close to 100% of their damage comes from dots, then they should remain cleansable.

 

The heals should be increased from 1% to 2%, it was a mistake to nerf it in the first place. I also like the reduced saber ward idea, if it cant happen more than once every 3 seconds then it would work quite nicely.

 

Finally, I don't approve of the added root. I think that there are already to many roots and slows in pvp, adding another root to a class skill tree every 5 major patches isn't going to solve pvp's problems. If anything, they should take some roots and slows out of the trees, then people wouldn't complain about the stun fest that is pvp.

 

Remember to be careful what you wish for, when class A wants more control, class B suffers from it.

[AngusFTW]

It needs some some form of cd to clear roots, slows and snares like the other 2 trees have. Edited December 16, 2013 by AngusFTW

[Monterone]

Some good suggestions, I'd like to go back and dig out my mara and play some Anni again, but please, please, please no more effing roots or slows in the game!

 

I'm gonna go out and murder someone if another root/slow is added to an ability. Speaking from a dps sorcerer's perspective -- playing against a coordinated team, the game devolves into a stop action / slow motion fest, that reminds me of the bubble stun days. I absolutely detest all the auto roots and slows added casually to many melee abilities, and without Force Speed root break/cc immunity being added as base for all sorcs, I simply cannot be ok with this idea.

[AngusFTW]

Some good suggestions, I'd like to go back and dig out my mara and play some Anni again, but please, please, please no more effing roots or slows in the game!

This is it though, Anni has no protection against that. 2.0 changed things quite a bit, BH/troopers got more kiting tools plus dat aoe slow for pt/vgs in mid tree (which are EVERYYYYYYYYYWHERE), lightning sorcs aoe snare (more common since 2.0), Both other trees can use abilitys to get out of those slows anni has nothing, while also being the tree with longest build up that has to be on a target the longest. Its why to me anni is close to unplayable against organised team.

 

 

Really all it needs is something like that to make it playable casually for me. Its a FUN dot spec but its more the other specs that are more popular these days that ruin it for me like mid tree pts/vg, mid tree sorc/sage (who also got the aoe slows buffed). Know what i mean..

Edited December 16, 2013 by AngusFTW

[RyderQuanTy]

Hay O just lvled a watchmen sent and it will never see 55 I finished the story and I mostly pvp and this class may be the worst in the game period. The 2.0 changes greatly increased mobility in the game which bioware acknowledges in the vigilance tee changes movement speed and ms root watchman just can't compete

 

I say increase the elf heals to 2% this class has the lowest survivability of any in the game and lower the cool down of orce camo to 30 seconds. you will be able to mach some of the mobility and have a little more up time and not be op at all

[tadeoosh]

This is it though, Anni has no protection against that. 2.0 changed things quite a bit, BH/troopers got more kiting tools plus dat aoe slow for pt/vgs in mid tree (which are EVERYYYYYYYYYWHERE), lightning sorcs aoe snare (more common since 2.0), Both other trees can use abilitys to get out of those slows anni has nothing, while also being the tree with longest build up that has to be on a target the longest.

 

I actually had an idea related to this problem as well, but for some reason I forgot to put it here:)

 

EDIT: Suggestion moved to the first post in the thread.

 

Absolutely, under no circumstances should any spec have uncleansable dots. Unless close to 100% of their damage comes from dots, then they should remain cleansable.

 

Well, I generally dislike the 'uncleansable dots' idea too, but you gotta admit that removing Marauder's dots is too easy and too hampering. Marauder is the only dot class not able to spam dots, and the fact that we have only 2 different bleeds (1 stacking) can nullify our damage totally with a single cleanse. While we technically can bring Rupture back up with Pulverize proc, it's not a guaranteed success, and cleansing full Deadly Saber stack technically shuts us down for even as long as 7.5s. I'm not certain if Bioware would revert back to 'cleansable' dots, but should this happen, there are really some nice ways of introducing dot protection differently.

I've never played as a dedicated medic, so I can't exactly say how it would the gameplay, but how about making cleanses remove only 1 negative effect? It does present the risk that slows and roots would be even more annoying to get rid of, but it would also make at least some of the dots get through and have some effect, especially when facing multiple dot specs at once. If it's too strong, then the devs should at least make cleansing each stack of Deadly Saber as a single negative effect, meaning that at least some damage would persist.

 

What do you think?

Edited December 16, 2013 by tadeoosh

[DynamiCtagez]

Suggestions 2 and 4 were the best. Absolutely, under no circumstances should any spec have uncleansable dots. Unless close to 100% of their damage comes from dots, then they should remain cleansable.

 

I think it'd be ok to make only the stacking DoT uncleansable. Since it takes 3 GCDs to apply but just one to cleanse completely. Leave Cauterize/Rupture cleansable since it can be reapplied no problem.

 

A root is not needed in my opinion, I'd have to agree with Mr Bleeze on that one. Just give us some kind of anti-kiting mechanic.

 

For suggestion no. 2 I think it'd be better to add like 1% DMG-reduction per point to make it worth putting points in it without making it too OP.

 

+ Bring the selfheal back to 2%. That should be enough.

[ShadowMudkip]

I think it'd be ok to make only the stacking DoT uncleansable. Since it takes 3 GCDs to apply but just one to cleanse completely. Leave Cauterize/Rupture cleansable since it can be reapplied no problem.

 

A root is not needed in my opinion, I'd have to agree with Mr Bleeze on that one. Just give us some kind of anti-kiting mechanic.

 

For suggestion no. 2 I think it'd be better to add like 1% DMG-reduction per point to make it worth putting points in it without making it too OP.

 

+ Bring the selfheal back to 2%. That should be enough.

 

I guess it would be ok to make the stacking dot uncleansable. My fear is that soon, all classes will want cleanse protection, then healers are so screwed over.

[Brunner_Venda]

Are we really going to play the 'Let's see who can recommend the most OP game breaking changes for our class" game?

[AngusFTW]

Are we really going to play the 'Let's see who can recommend the most OP game breaking changes for our class" game?

Don't think some form of protection/self cleanse from slows/roots/snares for annihilation could be considered "game breaking" the other 2 specs which have stronger burst both have such mechanics.

[tadeoosh]

Are we really going to play the 'Let's see who can recommend the most OP game breaking changes for our class" game?

 

As a side note – I’m not seeing to make Annihilation overshadow other specs in pvp, far be it from me. I know it’s generally thought of as a pve build and that’s fine by me, it’s just that all my suggestions here are meant to make it just a little bit more competitive in pvp than it is currently. I like the tree for being both challenging and hard to master, so please don’t treat it as my ultimate ‘wish list’ for the spec – implementing all these suggestions at once would most likely make the class too strong, and that’s far from what I have in mind. They are here to just point at things which I find a bit unsatisfactory in the current performance of Annihilation maras in pvp

Thank you for reading carefully.

[helloder]

IMHO good suggestions.

OP did a good job of planning and presenting them.

Yet personally again I must say that 3 very viable dps specs for arenas and wzs both, for one advanced class is may be too much..

when there is still loud cry in scrapper/concealment forum treads, and some poor dd specs as vigilance do exist, easytoshutdown mercs and sages are still depressed ( some people say ) may be they must be a 1st buff priority?

Edited December 16, 2013 by helloder

[SenatorPalpaTANG]

Not really a fan of completely uncleansable DoTs (and I also play a spec that relies on them). I'd lean more towards the suggestion of having cleanses remove 1 stack of Deadly Saber at a time instead of the entire DoT.

 

I'd also disagree with giving the spec more survivability (ie the lower CD on blade ward and increased healing). It's already pretty tanky for a DPS, and certainly ahead of the Jug DPS specs in that regard.

 

The root break on Pred doesn't sound unreasonable though.

[alexsamma]

Suggestions 2 and 4 were the best. Absolutely, under no circumstances should any spec have uncleansable dots. Unless close to 100% of their damage comes from dots, then they should remain cleansable.

 

The heals should be increased from 1% to 2%, it was a mistake to nerf it in the first place. I also like the reduced saber ward idea, if it cant happen more than once every 3 seconds then it would work quite nicely.

 

Finally, I don't approve of the added root. I think that there are already to many roots and slows in pvp, adding another root to a class skill tree every 5 major patches isn't going to solve pvp's problems. If anything, they should take some roots and slows out of the trees, then people wouldn't complain about the stun fest that is pvp.

 

Remember to be careful what you wish for, when class A wants more control, class B suffers from it.

 

No uncleanseable dots, the changes to madness were stupid and this should never be implemented in another spec (should be removed from madness and my main is sage/sorc).

 

Also agree with no extra roots/snares, frankly the other two mara specs (along with derptechs) have too many snares/roots.

 

Finally, while I want every spec to be viable, let's not return to having tank sentinels/maras, there was a point when an anni/watchman spec could do a better job of tanking than an actual tank and I have no desire to see that again.

[HolyFrogx]

+ Bring the selfheal back to 2%. That should be enough.

 

Perhaps, but BW determined that to be op.

Instead, up the heal of the party heals to 2% under Zen would be better for the team.

 

1: Requires more vigilent timing of Zen

2: Reduces the amount of PVP rage at Juyo form Sent/Maras

3: Brings a seemingly small benefit to the group, but in actual fact, when timed well, Zen heal has a chance to could turn the tide of the warzone or that particular node.

4: Doesn't OP the Juyo form.

5: Brings more MVP votes for Maras when they are bringing out 200-300k heals on top of their 800k damage.

[tadeoosh]

I'd also disagree with giving the spec more survivability (ie the lower CD on blade ward and increased healing). It's already pretty tanky for a DPS, and certainly ahead of the Jug DPS specs in that regard.

I wouldn't call for mixing increased healing and quicker Blade Ward together myself, as it has too much nasty potential of making Marauder too hard to kill (I know what mixing Berserk one after another with Frenzy is capable of even in the current state:)). However, I'm still convinced that implementing either of these suggestions would help us a bit, as after dropping Undying Rage after 2.5 we are left as the most vulnerable spec of all available trees (Rage still has its nice damage reduction and Carnage has its speed and tricks). Don't get me wrong, the change was necessary, but it took away one of our tools for doing what we are meant to do, and that is long-term damage. Our build-up time gives us roughly 9s to fully stack at least Juyo Form (getting full Annihilator stack in pvp is on the verge of miracle), and that time is usually too long for most of the pvp fights; while we used to be able to save ourselves by entering Undying Rage while Berserk-healing in the meantime, we are now left cutting the very health we regenerated in half when the Rage ends. I'm not even thinking of returning Undying Rage to its previous state (that would be too much), but what I'm hinting at is that Juyo could really use some additional (though definitely not overpowered) survivability to at least make it to fully stacking Juyo Form and showing some usefulness in their team.

 

Yet personally again I must say that 3 very viable dps specs for arenas and wzs both, for one advanced class is may be too much..

when there is still loud cry in scrapper/concealment forum treads, and some poor dd specs as vigilance do exist, easytoshutdown mercs and sages are still depressed ( some people say ) may be they must be a 1st buff priority?

Well, as I mentioned before:

And lastly – yes, I’m well aware there are other classes that are in a dire need of a fast revamp, so please don’t bother reminding me about that, I can gladly take my place in the line

I'm not looking to make buffing Marauders a top priority, God forbid. All I wanted was to share some of my thoughts about the class and its spec for some possible future consideration:)

[TheCourier-]

Annihilation spec needs it's self healing back, and uncleansable dots. Edited December 16, 2013 by TheCourier-

[Ottoattack]

As much as annihilation needs buffs, I do not agree that they need to be in survivability area, which seems many of the suggestions are going. Even if healing is returned back to 2%, would that make the class viable? Reducing saber ward CD is a no no.

 

I actually agree on the unsaleable dots part. They are substantial for damage, survivability and resource regeneration. The second part is juyo stacks and annihilator stacks. I will probably get flamed for this, but I do not get why do you need to sit on your target for 30+ secs to get your damage rolling. Making Juyo 18% by default and annihilate on 10.5 secs will remove the "build-up" time, which is a completely fail concept. Even at the full build-up the spec needs to do a lot of effort to stay on target and burst is mediocre. Finally, suseptability to roots. You can't do any melee damage when while being constantly rooted. I have no suggestions in this area, but the other 2 marauder specs do not suffer from the same issue. The predication suggestion won't work, as berserk will be the go to option in most cases.