Infernixx Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 I think where they are missing the gray area is LEGAL DEFINITION. When you gamble in a casino (or a lottery) you give away your money. You are not buying anything ("hope" doesn't really qualify as a good or service). You "hope" that you "win," in which case you will receive money back - hopefully a larger amount than you spent. When you BUY a grab bag, you are buying digital goods. You are guaranteed to receive something in return for your money. That is why grab bags don't fit the legal definition of gambling. However, you are "gambling" your money in hopes that you receive a better object. That's a colloquial use of the word "gambling." It doesn't make it an incorrect use, but it's not a LEGAL use, which is the only thing EA needs to be concerned about. Honestly, it wouldn't matter if they put up a disclaimer or warning before making a $100 purchase of coins. If an addict has latched onto SWTOR as a fix, a disclaimer isn't going to stop him any more than a disclaimer on the door of a casino. We cannot sterilize our living and financial environments to protect those with addictions at the expense of penalizing everyone else. They can call it whatever they like, it's not gambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 What is it with everyone getting into huge debates over definition semantics lately? Let's go over this one more time (similar to a post I made a while ago): I : In most jurisdictions (including the US, which actually matters), the cartel boxes do not legally qualify as gambling. This actually has nothing to do with the randomness, and everything to do with currency. You never actually lose any money purchasing a cartel box. You used game tokens, and game tokens have zero legal value, as they cannot be exchanged for currency. All you've done is use game tokens to get game items. No currency-value was risked, and no currency-value was granted. So, there is no possible argument that the boxes are illegal, subject to taxing, or pose a lawsuit liability for EA. As far as the courts are concerned, cartel boxes are no different than the artifact boxes you buy with comms, or the killing of a world boss. All of them involve random rewards for game actions. Ia : This same rule would apply for Pazaak. Since nothing you could ever win in SWTOR-Pazaak could ever be (legitimately) converted to currency or saleable/taxable goods, it would never be considered gambling by a court. II : Cartel boxes are very likely to satisfy the urges from gambling addicts, or compulsive collectors. It's hard to argue with this. However, there's nothing inherently wrong or unethical about that. They are not being targeted and its clear that EA is actively avoiding cashing in on these people, as they have limits on CC purchases. III : While announcements about gambling addiction have raised awareness, the way the OP is suggesting to use them hasn't been shown to be very effective at all, and they would likely be even less effective here, as the "gambling" event (buying the cartel box) is done as a separate event from the monetary payment. There has been some noted effectiveness in showing addiction warnings during a prolonged period of "gambling". Again, that model doesn't fit this situation very well. However, showing a notice when someone has purchased their twelfth cartel box is going to be much more effective than putting up the notice on the purchase screen. Considering the overall picture --with the purchase limits, lack of legal classification, and likely ineffectiveness of warnings-- this is really a pretty low value target for gambling activism. While I find the effort commendable, there are dozens of other pseudo-gambling activities (and even plenty of other games) which are better targets for such effort. Straight-up gaming addiction is a bigger concern here, but there has been no discussion of warnings about that. In that respect, the gambling thing ends up looking like a cherry-picked topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienEyeTX Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 You can call it what you want, at the end of the day most people are going to agree that this is gambling. Hell almost every single talkshow/Reviewer personality calls these things "Lottery Boxes". A guy that used to be in my guild spent over $1000 bucks on these packs, does he have a grab bag addiction or a gambling addiction? Maybe he's just a compulsive shopper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHboy Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Why are we debating this anymore , when clearly the OP stated (to my knowledge) a fallacy that they have added the $100 option in the "in game" purchase (but NOT on the actual account page, since they ARE linked) meaning the ONLY way this argument is even remotely valid is if the above it true. Meaning they are deliberately feeding the "addiction" by making it easier to spend more money. to my knowledge they haven't and to state as such that they did, to fuel the discussion is wrong. to my knowledge based on no posts as confirmation this is not true, and is lying to make a better story. I might as well come on here and say EA has added a new "empty pack" in to the CM where you spend CC and have a chance at getting nothing in return...They are fueling the gambling addiction. And doing so would make me worse than gum on a shoe bottom after having walked through a cow pasture... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimmuJanKaarl Posted December 12, 2013 Author Share Posted December 12, 2013 Why are we debating this anymore , when clearly the OP stated (to my knowledge) a fallacy that they have added the $100 option in the "in game" purchase (but NOT on the actual account page, since they ARE linked) meaning the ONLY way this argument is even remotely valid is if the above it true. Meaning they are deliberately feeding the "addiction" by making it easier to spend more money. to my knowledge they haven't and to state as such that they did, to fuel the discussion is wrong. to my knowledge based on no posts as confirmation this is not true, and is lying to make a better story. I might as well come on here and say EA has added a new "empty pack" in to the CM where you spend CC and have a chance at getting nothing in return...They are fueling the gambling addiction. And doing so would make me worse than gum on a shoe bottom after having walked through a cow pasture... This may be rare for the forums but I'm actually going to ask you to clarify *before* I fly off the handle: are you saying that I'm *lying* about the $100 option for buying cc's in-game? otherwise I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. regardless, what was originally an invitation to openly discuss the dangers inherent in the in-game cc purchase feature to people who suffer from or are at high risk of suffering from a particular mental illness and the compassionate steps EA/BW could take to help this demographic in some small part. instead the discussion almost immediately devolved into personal attacks and arguments about semantics and legalese. i = faith_in_humanity; i--; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BewBo Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Like anything to do with SW, the owners are wringing every cent they can from it, and will continue to do until people stop spending. They want people to buy those packs. They don't care about your money-worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAMossimo Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 This may be rare for the forums but I'm actually going to ask you to clarify *before* I fly off the handle: are you saying that I'm *lying* about the $100 option for buying cc's in-game? otherwise I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I don't know what your screen says, but mine reads the same 4 options topping out at the selection to buy 5500 CC @ $39.99 like it always has. Hense why I asked whether everyone has this option available. Because I, apparently, do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomXChance Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 so I noticed the new option when buying cc's in-game: 14,500cc for $99.99. I find this to be really scary. maybe those of us who never buy cc's don't think it's a big deal, but imo buying cm packs IS gambling just without a potential for rl cash returns This may be rare for the forums but I'm actually going to ask you to clarify *before* I fly off the handle: are you saying that I'm *lying* about the $100 option for buying cc's in-game? otherwise I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. regardless, what was originally an invitation to openly discuss the dangers inherent in the in-game cc purchase feature to people who suffer from or are at high risk of suffering from a particular mental illness and the compassionate steps EA/BW could take to help this demographic in some small part. instead the discussion almost immediately devolved into personal attacks and arguments about semantics and legalese. i = faith_in_humanity; i--; I just wanted to refresh what started the debate about the packs being gambling. This has been debated many times in the forums, and was bound to start another round when you called them gambling. I agree that the packs feed the same type of addiction that gambling addicts have. The packs do not qualify legally as gambling, so therefore are not regulated as gambling is. I guess the question you mean to address was how convenient does EA/BW need to make accessing these packs for the general population while balancing trying to help those "addicted" to control their impulse. There are some control in place to help compulsive buyers control their impulses and more would be ulikely to help those with real problems. Considering people have been crying for in game CC purchases from the start of the CM and I know many players who purchase over $100 worth of CC when new packs come out, this new purchase amount is a benefit to many players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomXChance Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 (edited) Like anything to do with SW, the owners are wringing every cent they can from it, and will continue to do until people stop spending. They want people to buy those packs. They don't care about your money-worries. Yes, because most other companies care deeply about your money-worries. Evil EA. Edited December 12, 2013 by RandomXChance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 With the quality of most of the items you get, you may as well be walking away with nothing. I would much rather see the cool things available for a fixed price to buy outright. Speaking of...has anyone else noticed the tremendous drop off in "Armor" sets available for purchase since the packs did so well? What was the last new FULL set of armor available for outright purchase? I don't blame Bioware since they make more piecing it apart in a few packs...just sad to see them do away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisaveta Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 If you can't avoid buying the packs, Bioware will do no worse with your money than you do. Remove your credit card info or seek help. Bioware is here to make $, not do gamblers a public service. I agree. If people are happy spending money in the game what is the issue? Everyone wins when more money is being pumped into the game. If someone does happen to have an addiction (I don't think the cartel market is gambling myself) the only way they will get help is if they make a conscious choice to stop or seek help. Having a little warning before purchasing coins is not going to dissuade someone with an addicition. I mean do those warnings on cigarette packs stop smokers from smoking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienEyeTX Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Speaking of...has anyone else noticed the tremendous drop off in "Armor" sets available for purchase since the packs did so well? What was the last new FULL set of armor available for outright purchase? I don't blame Bioware since they make more piecing it apart in a few packs...just sad to see them do away with it. I have noticed this and completely agree with you. It would be great to have some of the sets available for direct purchase. I realized this after taking advantage of the 50% deal. I wanted to purchase a full set for a companion. Not many new options there. I, personally, would be much more likely to spend money on a full set than to buy cartel packs. A new shiney is much more enticing for impulse purchase than some box thing is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IStillWantMySWG Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 (edited) The CM packs is gambling, that's not opinion its fact. They depend on people spending their money like crazy just like casinos do. I don't know if they are required by law to follow some gambling rules but they should. This. i cant believe this option has been applied 2 the game. **** Biofail, you become sleazier by the day. I'm so against this its not evn funny... Edited December 12, 2013 by IStillWantMySWG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 This. i cant believe this option has been applied 2 the game. **** Biofail, you become sleazier by the day. I'm so against this its not evn funny... Magic the Gathering is the most evil game in history because it uses "gambling packs" too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimmuJanKaarl Posted December 12, 2013 Author Share Posted December 12, 2013 (edited) I just wanted to refresh what started the debate about the packs being gambling. This has been debated many times in the forums, and was bound to start another round when you called them gambling. I agree that the packs feed the same type of addiction that gambling addicts have. The packs do not qualify legally as gambling, so therefore are not regulated as gambling is. I guess the question you mean to address was how convenient does EA/BW need to make accessing these packs for the general population while balancing trying to help those "addicted" to control their impulse. There are some control in place to help compulsive buyers control their impulses and more would be ulikely to help those with real problems. Considering people have been crying for in game CC purchases from the start of the CM and I know many players who purchase over $100 worth of CC when new packs come out, this new purchase amount is a benefit to many players. I concede the point about whether they are de jure gambling. i recognize that very often people, myself included, will base their own definition of something on how they feel that weird or idea has meaning to them. I regret having said it given how much it caused such extreme side-stepping of the original spirit and intent of my post. I'm not sure if I agree that they should do nothing only because I personally feel that any act of compassion that, if nothing else, raises awareness or helps but one person is by no means a waste. but I do want to thank you for the thoughtful, non-inflammatory response, of which there have been few since my original post. Edited December 12, 2013 by DimmuJanKaarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienEyeTX Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Magic the Gathering is the most evil game in history because it uses "gambling packs" too. Don't forget about how evil baseball cards are. If cartel packs are gambling, so are baseball cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimmuJanKaarl Posted December 12, 2013 Author Share Posted December 12, 2013 I apologize for referring to cartel packs as gambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomaad Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Am I garunteed the items when I buy them, the ones that are posted in the cartel market window? No. It is gambling, plain and simple. If I go to the grocery store, I buy 5 apples, its costs me 2.50$ If I go to the grocery store, I want to buy 5 apples, but the bag it comes packaged in is not clear and can't see how many apples are in it, it may or may not contain 5 apples, so I take the chance of buying it. THIS IS GAMBLING, STOP TELLING PEOPLE IT ISN'T, CAUSE IT IS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzel Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 There has already been plenty of threads discussing wether or not cartel packs and the cartel market in general is gambling. And the general consensus was that it is not gambling. No more than buying 20 kid's meals at mcdonalds just to get the toy you want, is. Yeah, it's gambling. It's terrible. I would be infinitely more comfortable with it if there were a choice. Meaning you could also buy the exact same items with Cartel Coins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboWithAStick Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Am I garunteed the items when I buy them, the ones that are posted in the cartel market window? No. It is gambling, plain and simple. If I go to the grocery store, I buy 5 apples, its costs me 2.50$ If I go to the grocery store, I want to buy 5 apples, but the bag it comes packaged in is not clear and can't see how many apples are in it, it may or may not contain 5 apples, so I take the chance of buying it. THIS IS GAMBLING, STOP TELLING PEOPLE IT ISN'T, CAUSE IT IS. Lol awesome way to explain it. People love to just argue for the sake of arguing, people called them gambling packs in ME3 as well but those forums didn't seem to have a bunch of mindless defenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernixx Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Yeah, it's gambling. It's terrible. I would be infinitely more comfortable with it if there were a choice. Meaning you could also buy the exact same items with Cartel Coins. Even better, maybe you should have the option to buy them with credits, instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernixx Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Am I garunteed the items when I buy them, the ones that are posted in the cartel market window? No. It is gambling, plain and simple. If I go to the grocery store, I buy 5 apples, its costs me 2.50$ If I go to the grocery store, I want to buy 5 apples, but the bag it comes packaged in is not clear and can't see how many apples are in it, it may or may not contain 5 apples, so I take the chance of buying it. THIS IS GAMBLING, STOP TELLING PEOPLE IT ISN'T, CAUSE IT IS. You're not buying a bag of apples. you're buying a bag of random fruit and you have a chance at getting apples. Further, you know this before you buy them and you know you might not get apples, but you buy anyways. Meanwhile, over to the side is a guy who's selling guaranteed apples, but you won't buy from him. So, you buy the bag that may or may not have apples and then rage when you don't get apples, meanwhile the guy on the side is steadily selling applies that you won't buy. Gamer Logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboWithAStick Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Even better, maybe you should have the option to buy them with credits, instead. It would be pretty nice wouldn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IStillWantMySWG Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Yeah, it's gambling. It's terrible. I would be infinitely more comfortable with it if there were a choice. Meaning you could also buy the exact same items with Cartel Coins. ^this it's gambling and thts a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernixx Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 It would be pretty nice wouldn't it? Maybe they should set up some sort of centralized trading system where players can buy CM things for in-game credits. We could call it the Gigantic Trading Network. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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