Mowermanx Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 It is not an opinion that everything in the pack has a value. Define value, for every person alive on this planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudrath Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 You've just confirmed what I said. The community decides what's desireable and thus decides what's valuable. Not Bioware. Therefore, you can't 'win' anything. Nor can you 'lose' what you pay. You get what's promised when you first buy the pack. If there were packs that were totally empty...yes, that's gambling. Now? Absolutely not. Your argument is nonexistent. You can win the items the community deems desirable. You can win the items you deem desirable. Doesn't matter who decides what's valuable. What matters is the means of getting that. And if you want to get into that whole thing of who decides what, ultimately, like with fashion, it is the designers who determine what the community deems valuable. Make a cool lightsaber and a bunch of crappy looking ones. Put those crappy looking ones in the game and the cool one in the pack with a low chance of getting it. Hell, it doesn't even have to be pretty, just as long as it stands out and is difficult to get. Voila. The community just "decided" what's valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Define value, for every person alive on this planet. 1val·ue noun \ˈval-(ˌ)yü\ : the amount of money that something is worth : the price or cost of something Every item has a value. It may not be high, but it has value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernixx Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 (edited) Your argument is nonexistent. You can win the items the community deems desirable. You can win the items you deem desirable. Doesn't matter who decides what's valuable. What matters is the means of getting that. And if you want to get into that whole thing of who decides what, ultimately, like with fashion, it is the designers who determine what the community deems valuable. Make a cool lightsaber and a bunch of crappy looking ones. Put those crappy looking ones in the game and the cool one in the pack with a low chance of getting it. Hell, it doesn't even have to be pretty, just as long as it stands out and is difficult to get. Voila. The community just "decided" what's valuable. With the packs, you're not 'winning' anything. You're buying random things in a grab bag. Why is this a hard concept to grasp? Edited December 12, 2013 by Infernixx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudrath Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 You can call it gambling all you like, it's not gambling. The Packs are guaranteed to have a certain number of items of particular rarity, and that's exactly what you get. Is that what you *wanted*? Is that why you bought the pack? Yeah. I wanted a million dollar jackpot when I played those slots in Vegas. Didn't get it. I did get a quarter though. Guess I wasn't gambling after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernixx Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Is that what you *wanted*? Is that why you bought the pack? Yeah. I wanted a million dollar jackpot when I played those slots in Vegas. Didn't get it. I did get a quarter though. Guess I wasn't gambling after all. It's no one's fault you bought something with misplaced expectations. You weren't promised anything for your money other than than a handful of random items of various rarity. If people expect more, or buy something with expectations of getting any one thing in particular, that's their fault, no one else's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Your argument is nonexistent. You can win the items the community deems desirable. You can win the items you deem desirable. Doesn't matter who decides what's valuable. What matters is the means of getting that. And if you want to get into that whole thing of who decides what, ultimately, like with fashion, it is the designers who determine what the community deems valuable. Make a cool lightsaber and a bunch of crappy looking ones. Put those crappy looking ones in the game and the cool one in the pack with a low chance of getting it. Hell, it doesn't even have to be pretty, just as long as it stands out and is difficult to get. Voila. The community just "decided" what's valuable. For every item that you "lose" you "win" something else. For every item that you "win" you "lose" everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHboy Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Define value, for every person alive on this planet. wait..what? My head just imploded from the blatant paradox that just created... You want him to define value for everyone on the planet (logically impossible) but you went about and said something didn't have value (assigned it a value of zero..or better NULL). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudrath Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 It's no one's fault you bought something with misplaced expectations. You weren't promised anything for your money other than than a handful of random items of various rarity. If people expect more, or buy something with expectations of getting any one thing in particular, that's their fault, no one else's. Who is talking about whose fault it is? I'm not. I'm defining gambling, you're talking about... stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHboy Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Is that what you *wanted*? Is that why you bought the pack? Yeah. I wanted a million dollar jackpot when I played those slots in Vegas. Didn't get it. I did get a quarter though. Guess I wasn't gambling after all. What i wanted was a set of items, with a chance at two rares of which have a chance of being SUPER rare. Hey, I got exactly what I wanted..fancy that. *goes fishing, "wants" to catch a world record fish, catches bullhead. Yells at God for creating a rigged lake and feeding the addiction of fisherman everywhere by not giving what they wanted (8 hours of entertainment hoping to "catch" a big fish). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomXChance Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Of course it is gambling and anyone claiming otherwise is just deluding themselves. I do not care for legal definitions, they're important to lawyers who live in their own little world. What we have in CM, and indeed in pretty much any other virtual shop offering a *chance* to get something of value, is pure gambling in digital form. You spend something of value, for a *chance* to get something you want. Thus it is a game of chance, otherwise known as gambling. End of discussion. Classic attitude. The definition does not suite me, so I am going to ignore it and declare my own. There is a gambling "aspect" to the packs, just like there is a gambling aspect to buying baseball cards hoping for that super rare card. Not the same as a slot machine or sliding up to the blackjack table. As was pointed out, with packs (virtual and real life) you are purchasing a product with unknown precise contents. Gambling involves a probability chance of losing the money you put down, or coming away with more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernixx Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Who is talking about whose fault it is? I'm not. I'm defining gambling, you're talking about... stuff. No, you're really not. lol Seriously, 'gambling' has a legal definition and we're not debating it. It doesn't get redefined to help people make a stronger argument on the internet. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboWithAStick Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 You can call it gambling all you like, it's not gambling. The Packs are guaranteed to have a certain number of items of particular rarity, and that's exactly what you get. So If I had a 50/50 chance to spend 100 bucks to win cruise around the world or a rock it wouldn't be gambling? The latter has real world value so its not gambling. Got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowermanx Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 wait..what? My head just imploded from the blatant paradox that just created... You want him to define value for everyone on the planet (logically impossible) but you went about and said something didn't have value (assigned it a value of zero..or better NULL). It is possible to have an item that is of zero value to yourself, keyword, yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafaman Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 You can call it what you want, at the end of the day most people are going to agree that this is gambling. Hell almost every single talkshow/Reviewer personality calls these things "Lottery Boxes". A guy that used to be in my guild spent over $1000 bucks on these packs, does he have a grab bag addiction or a gambling addiction? You do not speak for me or most people. You have your opinion which is fine, but before you start talking for the rest of us, you should find out what gambling is and how people are buying and using these packs irrespective of what your talkshow personalities may tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernixx Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 So If I had a 50/50 chance to spend 100 bucks to win cruise around the world or a rock it wouldn't be gambling? The latter has real world value so its not gambling. Got it. Yah, pretty much. If someone wanted to, they could buy a thousand plastic bags, put a thousand rocks into those bags and put cruise tickets into 'one' bag and sell off the bags with the advert of 'chance at cruise tickets with each bag!' That's not gambling. You're getting a 'rock' for certain, which is what would be put into the fine print. Of course, not many people would buy those bags, but if you replaced the rocks with a cheap DVD player and priced accordingly, you'd sell a lot more. Again, not gambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHboy Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 So If I had a 50/50 chance to spend 100 bucks to win cruise around the world or a rock it wouldn't be gambling? The latter has real world value so its not gambling. Got it. you spend $100 on a rock, that rock may be a meteorite. But the rock you do get will be a rock. nothing "extra" just a rock. that rock you DO get has a chance to be a "rare" rock, but really has no value outside of being rare or "special" Its still a rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudrath Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 (edited) What i wanted was a set of items, with a chance at two rares of which have a chance of being SUPER rare. Hey, I got exactly what I wanted..fancy that. *goes fishing, "wants" to catch a world record fish, catches bullhead. Yells at God for creating a rigged lake and feeding the addiction of fisherman everywhere by not giving what they wanted (8 hours of entertainment hoping to "catch" a big fish). Wrong example. *Goes fishing, wants to catch a fish to eat, because hunting is not a game, catches said fish because he knows what he's doing, eats fish, is happy.* What people want from packs, I'm not talking about you, I'm not talking about me (I don't even buy them because I don't like wasting *too much* money on pretend things) - I'm talking about the average consumer with whom in mind the system was designed - what people want is *specific* items they have a chance of getting. They all want a jackpot. They don't want "random stuff". That's why they pay. Again and again. For the chance to "win" stuff they want. That's why these systems exist, why they're more popular in the industry now than the flat subscription model, and far more profitable. People love to gamble. MMOs are built on that, what do you think "grinding" is. Cash shops are just grinding that you pay for with real money. Edited December 12, 2013 by Gaudrath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudrath Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Classic attitude. The definition does not suite me, so I am going to ignore it and declare my own. I supplied arguments with that definition. Refute them, walk away, or accept the definition. And once again, I am not interested in legal definitions, because most legal definitions have as much in common with the real world as pink unicorns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboWithAStick Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Yah, pretty much. If someone wanted to, they could buy a thousand plastic bags, put a thousand rocks into those bags and put cruise tickets into 'one' bag and sell off the bags with the advert of 'chance at cruise tickets with each bag!' That's not gambling. You're getting a 'rock' for certain, which is what would be put into the fine print. Of course, not many people would buy those bags, but if you replaced the rocks with a cheap DVD player and priced accordingly, you'd sell a lot more. Again, not gambling. And this is why we need a lawyer to post in the forums because some people just don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHboy Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 It is possible to have an item that is of zero value to yourself, keyword, yourself. the paradox came from your statement as a rather subtle form of "you dont get to tell me what an item is worth" yet you proceeded to tell what an item is worth. Here is how VALUE is defined....By what someone ELSE will give for it. Not what it "cost you" or "effort' or "what you THINK it is worth" it is worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. Someone lists something on GTN for 5billion credits, does not mean it is "worth" that much...if someone pays it, sure then it is. doesn't mean its worth that much to someone else. Just becuas you wouldn't pay 5 credits for something, doesnt mean someone else wont. and guess what, 5 credits isn't worth anything either. so in essense EVERYTHING in the game has zero "monetary value" but can have a "perceived" value in entertainment, aesthetics enjoyment, time spent playing. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorstram Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 It is possible to have an item that is of zero value to yourself, keyword, yourself. This is dangerously close to talking about dividing by zero... which is a clear and present threat TO THE ENTIRE WORLD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHboy Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 And this is why we need a lawyer to post in the forums because some people just don't get it. wait what? We already said we were not discussing the "legal" definition of gambling...because gambling ISN'T illegal. What IS illegal is NOT paying the taxes and the fees to run said gaming. now we're back asking for lawyers to post on the forums to discuss the legal definition of gambling for a discussion we're not having on the legalality of gambling... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHboy Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 This is dangerously close to talking about dividing by zero... which is a clear and present threat TO THE ENTIRE WORLD naw the people posting that this IS gambling, will simply define it as 7 and move on. so x/0 = 7 and all is good and well in this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboWithAStick Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 I haven't given up hope on you, keep trying, you'll get it sooner or later. Try taping a dictionary to your face and get it via osmosis. The problem though is people like you that ignore dictionary definitions. You found one that support your argument but completely ignore every other definition because you won't admit when you are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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