$100 in a couple clicks. SCARY.

[Gaudrath]

fact: I don't think you are using it the way it should.

 

a) not all "games" of "chance" constitute gambling... i.e fishing, collectable cards etc.

 

Since when is fishing a game of chance? Maybe if you don't know how to fish. If you do know how to fish, you're pretty much guaranteed a catch. Tell me, is there some expertise that can influence the random number generator built into the CM? Can you get "good" at spending money to get a guaranteed item of value you want?

 

Collectible cards are also gambling. In the real world, again, not the world of lawyers.

 

b) not all "chance" is "gambling" in the sense people use it here...flying is not "gambling" with ones life..since there is a "chance" you could die while flying.

 

So is living. After all, there is a chance that a meteor could hit you. There is also a chance the Universe might end, even though we haven't got room for enough decimal places and zeroes in it to express that chance.

 

But if I told you this: Here's an airplane you will fly. There is a 50% chance the engine will fail and you will crash and die. Now, what would you say, if you fly that plane, are you gambling with your life? And CM chances for items of value are much, much lower than 50%.

 

The nature of any gambling activity is such that the chances are stacked against the gambler, but the potential gain is enough for that gambler to attempt the activity anyway. There is no way for the gambler to significantly influence their chances of winning. If it fits those two criteria, it is gambling.

[ghoul_drool]

Of COURSE it's not gambling, and anyone who wants to force this label on the cartel packs is wrong, simple as that. It's not gambling because you get exactly what you pay for: 2 random rares, a boost, a rep token, and a gift. And there's no chance to get something of 'value' either, because that is not for Bioware to decide, but rather the community decides what's desireable. Hell, I went nuts over the Exchange Jacket and trust me, nobody's hoarding those!

 

Magic: The Gathering boosters are not gambling either. You get what you pay for, 15 random cards from a pre-disclosed pool. It's an age-old concept and this isn't even a discussion, why am I here again...?

[Zerex_Kildron]

Oh please.

[Docmal]

Maybe it is not gambling by the legal definition but it is conceptually the same thing. Keep in mind that the non-rare items you get are basically worthless junk. Are state Lottery scratch cards considered gambling? I mean if you don't win you walk away with this nice full color printed card. Technically, by your definition this is not gambling. Edited December 12, 2013 by Docmal

[DOHboy]

Of course it is gambling and anyone claiming otherwise is just deluding themselves. I do not care for legal definitions, they're important to lawyers who live in their own little world.

 

End of discussion.

 

/thread. There is no arguing with this post. Once again logic and reason have been beaten back by emotio arguments.

 

I guess I have found out what my "condition" is...I'm delusional.

 

Please, stop playing this game, it is only feeding the delusions that we are Jedi/sith fighting an epic war. It MUST be stopped. Delusion is a mental illness continueing to fund this game will continue to support my delusion and send me further into madness. SOON (sorry BW for breaking TM) I will be making youtube videos with poor graphical effects with me swinging my flashlight (or my FX lightsaber from thinkgeek..that I totally don't have).

[MillionsKNives]

Since when is fishing a game of chance? Maybe if you don't know how to fish. If you do know how to fish, you're pretty much guaranteed a catch. Tell me, is there some expertise that can influence the random number generator built into the CM? Can you get "good" at spending money to get a guaranteed item of value you want?

 

Collectible cards are also gambling. In the real world, again, not the world of lawyers.

 

 

 

So is living. After all, there is a chance that a meteor could hit you. There is also a chance the Universe might end, even though we haven't got room for enough decimal places and zeroes in it to express that chance.

 

But if I told you this: Here's an airplane you will fly. There is a 50% chance the engine will fail and you will crash and die. Now, what would you say, if you fly that plane, are you gambling with your life? And CM chances for items of value are much, much lower than 50%.

 

The nature of any gambling activity is such that the chances are stacked against the gambler, but the potential gain is enough for that gambler to attempt the activity anyway. There is no way for the gambler to significantly influence their chances of winning. If it fits those two criteria, it is gambling.

 

You can't lose when buying trading cards and cartel packs.

[HoboWithAStick]

He has poor impulse control and zero self-control. But, I guarantee you that he has several Cargo Bays full of crap in return for his $1000.

 

He didn't risk a single dollar. He got exactly what he paid for. When there's no risk, it's not gambling. Sorry.

 

Gambling and Risk are totally different things though, they do go hand in hand but even getting something crappy is still a risk.

 

People that have past gambling addiction will not ever do free spin to wins or scratch and play cards. Despite not having any risk at all its still their desire to win. Its gambling risk or not.

[Gaudrath]

Of COURSE it's not gambling, and anyone who wants to force this label on the cartel packs is wrong, simple as that. It's not gambling because you get exactly what you pay for: 2 random rares, a boost, a rep token, and a gift. And there's no chance to get something of 'value' either, because that is not for Bioware to decide, but rather the community decides what's desireable.

 

Irrelevant who decides what's valuable. The point is that people buying packs want specific things. They do not want two random rares, all they have to do to get that is open GTN, set up filters and just click like mad. They want specific items. Which they have a chance of getting. Usually a low chance at that.

 

Thus, they gamble. It is the same as that collectible card example. When you buy a pack, you do not want just "a random card". You want specific ones, ones you don't have or which you or other people deem valuable. And so, you gamble.

[Infernixx]

Maybe it is not gambling by the legal definition but it is conceptually the same thing. Keep in mind that the non-rare items you get are basically worthless junk. Are state Lottery scratch cards considered gambling? I mean if you don't win you walk away with this nice full color printed card. Technically, by your definition this is not gambling.

 

You don't get to redefine things to make your argument work.

 

Also, everything has value in those packs, if you know when to post them to the GTN. Hint: Look up the word 'embargo.'

[Infernixx]

Gambling and Risk are totally different things though, they do go hand in hand but even getting something crappy is still a risk.

 

People that have past gambling addiction will not ever do free spin to wins or scratch and play cards. Despite not having any risk at all its still their desire to win. Its gambling risk or not.

 

Again, you don't get to redefine things to fit your argument. If you want to say that Cartel Packs are bad for people who have no good sense and too much money, that's one thing. But you don't get to call it 'gambling.'

[MillionsKNives]

Gambling and Risk are totally different things though, they do go hand in hand but even getting something crappy is still a risk.

 

People that have past gambling addiction will not ever do free spin to wins or scratch and play cards. Despite not having any risk at all its still their desire to win. Its gambling risk or not.

 

It's not gambling if you have nothing at stake.

[DOHboy]

Irrelevant who decides what's valuable. The point is that people buying packs want specific things. They do not want two random rares, all they have to do to get that is open GTN, set up filters and just click like mad. They want specific items. Which they have a chance of getting. Usually a low chance at that.

 

Thus, they gamble. It is the same as that collectible card example. When you buy a pack, you do not want just "a random card". You want specific ones, ones you don't have or which you or other people deem valuable. And so, you gamble.

 

Is your argument on the ETHICS of gambling, or on the LEGALITY of gambling?

 

Those are two philosophically different arguments.

 

Gambling is only illegal due to the laws set forth by the powers that be to control the taxes. They could care less about the impact of it on a social/economical scale. They just want to make sure they get their share of the revenue, and if you do NOT purchase the permits (fees) and do not report the income (legally obligated to report all winnings over $500 to the IRS) you are breaking the law. The ACT of gambling is a moral question. The legality of gambling is one of taxes and revenues.

 

Now if you want to discuss the ethics/morality of gambling by all means. That is a different argument that probably has a valid point. But then you are more talking about "fairness' there is nothing more fair than RANDOM.

[Gaudrath]

You can't lose when buying trading cards and cartel packs.

 

Of course you can. You get items of little value, or items you do not want. You just lost. Buying trading cards? What if you open a pack and worthless ones fall out?

 

Well, I guess you lost.

 

Which is the whole point really, why do you think they invented these schemes in the first place? How do you get people to buy the same "product" over and over again and, on average, spend much more money than you could ever charge them for a full pack or a guaranteed item?

 

Make it so they have a chance of getting said item. And make the chance really low - but perceived as attainable. Same as lottery. The big momma of gambling.

[DimmuJanKaarl]

ok too many to quote, but I think Infernixx and a few others are some I'd like to address (my comments though are not directed at any one person). respectfully:

 

first let me say that this was not intended as an attack on Bioware. so those that have asserted that my post was meant to be read as "BW/EA is evil" have really taken it in an entirely unintended ditection. my intent was to point out that, while naturally it makes sense as a business for them to take steps to increase revenue and I don't hold this feature necessarily in a negative light, I am simply trying to appeal to any who may be in a position of authority or influence and are compassionate to take a look at this part of the game through the eyes of a mentally-ill demographic.

 

second, it was also not my intent to play the semantics game and detract from the spirit of my post. so whether you believe the cm packs constitute gambling, the way an addict responds to them psychologically and physiologically is the same: you spend money in anticipation of a reward. that reward comes in the form of items you *don't already have*. personally I have opened hundreds of packs. I look at my collection to see what I *don't already have*. it's like those "games" at certain public places like the claw machine that says "prize guaranteed with every play". so the gamble isn't whether you get something or nothing, it's whether you get something that has perceived value. and the list of items with perceived value not only changes with each new item gained, but with each new pack of items. the addiction comes from the *reward*. there is no perceived reward (as far far the brain's reward center is concerned) for getting stuff you already have. so call them grab bags or gamble bags, those that would spend money recklessly in the hopes of getting that next reward (=any item of perceived value) are gambling addicts. remember that mental illness won't always make sense or seem logical to those that don't suffer from that illness.

[Infernixx]

Of course you can. You get items of little value, or items you do not want. You just lost. Buying trading cards? What if you open a pack and worthless ones fall out?

 

Well, I guess you lost.

 

Which is the whole point really, why do you think they invented these schemes in the first place? How do you get people to buy the same "product" over and over again and, on average, spend much more money than you could ever charge them for a full pack or a guaranteed item?

 

Make it so they have a chance of getting said item. And make the chance really low - but perceived as attainable. Same as lottery. The big momma of gambling.

 

If you buy a pack of random cards and feel upset that you didn't get the cards you wanted, that's your fault. You bought something with the expectation of getting something else.

 

Cartel Packs and Card Decks are 'random' and they're advertised as 'random.' If you get angry because RNG screwed you, fine, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

[HoboWithAStick]

It's not gambling if you have nothing at stake.

 

So your definition of gambling is the correct one? Go check around the web, your definition of gambling is not law.

[Gaudrath]

Is your argument on the ETHICS of gambling, or on the LEGALITY of gambling?

 

Those are two philosophically different arguments.

 

Gambling is only illegal due to the laws set forth by the powers that be to control the taxes. They could care less about the impact of it on a social/economical scale. They just want to make sure they get their share of the revenue, and if you do NOT purchase the permits (fees) and do not report the income (legally obligated to report all winnings over $500 to the IRS) you are breaking the law. The ACT of gambling is a moral question. The legality of gambling is one of taxes and revenues.

 

Now if you want to discuss the ethics/morality of gambling by all means. That is a different argument that probably has a valid point. But then you are more talking about "fairness' there is nothing more fair than RANDOM.

 

As I said, I am not concerned with legality of gambling. Actually I just wanted to set up a clear definition of gambling, which I did.

 

As for ethics... as such gambling is not unethical. Except when it is denied as gambling and people with issues are given a convenient blindfold so they can keep going down that road.

[ghoul_drool]

You want specific ones, ones you don't have or which you or other people deem valuable.

 

You've just confirmed what I said. The community decides what's desireable and thus decides what's valuable. Not Bioware. Therefore, you can't 'win' anything. Nor can you 'lose' what you pay. You get what's promised when you first buy the pack. If there were packs that were totally empty...yes, that's gambling. Now? Absolutely not.

[MillionsKNives]

Of course you can. You get items of little value, or items you do not want. You just lost. Buying trading cards? What if you open a pack and worthless ones fall out?

 

Well, I guess you lost.

 

Which is the whole point really, why do you think they invented these schemes in the first place? How do you get people to buy the same "product" over and over again and, on average, spend much more money than you could ever charge them for a full pack or a guaranteed item?

 

Make it so they have a chance of getting said item. And make the chance really low - but perceived as attainable. Same as lottery. The big momma of gambling.

 

Nothing you could get from the pack is worthless.

[Mowermanx]

You don't get to redefine things to make your argument work.

Thats all you done in this thread.

 

Also, everything has value in those packs, if you know when to post them to the GTN. Hint: Look up the word 'embargo.'

 

Again, passing opinion as fact.

[Callaron]

The fact that there are people with poor impulse control is no reason to approach the CM as if those folk need to be coddled and protected from their own bad decisions.

 

I wasn't saying that they should.

And besides, unless I'm mistaken there are already countermeasures in place for such people - I can't remember the exact amount, but there's only so much you can buy every month before they cut you off.

I think it's somewhere between 250-400$, NCSoft has (or had?) a similar limitation for their products.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Callaron

[MillionsKNives]

Thats all you done in this thread.

 

 

 

Again, passing opinion as fact.

 

It is not an opinion that everything in the pack has a value.

Edited December 12, 2013 by MillionsKNives

[Infernixx]

Thats all you done in this thread.

 

 

 

Again, passing opinion as fact.

 

Incorrect, all I've done is post facts that are inconvenient for the posters who think that grab bags are gambling.

[Gaudrath]

If you buy a pack of random cards and feel upset that you didn't get the cards you wanted, that's your fault. You bought something with the expectation of getting something else.

 

No, you bought something with the expectation to get that exact thing and ignored the low chances that you will actually get it. The people who designed that product knew exactly what they were doing. You shouldn't get upset if you lose at gambling, because losing is basically in the design, but you shouldn't be telling yourself you're not gambling because that's a very good way to lose a lot of money.

 

I gambled in Vegas, I lost 4$ after about 15 minutes. I wasn't upset, I fully expected to lose, and I knew what I was doing (can't tell people I went to Vegas and didn't gamble, eh?)

Some people lose a lot more in Vegas, and many times denial is a very large part of why.

 

And the best thing about this "new wave" of gambling is that it likes to pretend it's not gambling. People are spending money like crazy - SWTOR CM is nothing, you should see what people are doing over at GW2 cash shop.

[Infernixx]

No, you bought something with the expectation to get that exact thing and ignored the low chances that you will actually get it. The people who designed that product knew exactly what they were doing. You shouldn't get upset if you lose at gambling, because losing is basically in the design, but you shouldn't be telling yourself you're not gambling because that's a very good way to lose a lot of money.

 

I gambled in Vegas, I lost 4$ after about 15 minutes. I wasn't upset, I fully expected to lose, and I knew what I was doing (can't tell people I went to Vegas and didn't gamble, eh?)

Some people lose a lot more in Vegas, and many times denial is a very large part of why.

 

And the best thing about this "new wave" of gambling is that it likes to pretend it's not gambling. People are spending money like crazy - SWTOR CM is nothing, you should see what people are doing over at GW2 cash shop.

 

You can call it gambling all you like, it's not gambling. The Packs are guaranteed to have a certain number of items of particular rarity, and that's exactly what you get.