The REAL juggernaut concerns thread.

[lordbadtamaru]

Ravage is technically immune to interrupts, but not physics. If unyielding was changed to affect ravage, and have the root packaged with it, I would be game. Remove debilitation, a useless 2 talent points in a bloated tree that doesn't even help PVE, but having Ravage being knockback immune helps all forms of gameplay. Heck we don't even need the root with ravage unknockbackable.

[UndyingHadyn]

So why are we making this thread, what are our possibilities to change something in the nearest future? Is another round of classquestions coming around the corner or are we just hoping with no real reason?

 

 

We need to share our experiences, concerns, and discuss new ideas. The developers will of course maintain their own ideas about how the class is...they wrote the game. However, we're the ones that play it.

 

They created an ongoing feedback platform, in an effort to see how we the players felt their classes were performing in our hands. This is good. The results of those discussions may or may not yield fruit, but then again it's a start.

 

We need to keep our thoughts pouring in, all the time. As we continue to do so, we'll begin to see patterns. We'll see alot of similarities and trends evolving.

 

We're also here to learn. Feel free to drop some new info, or synergy that you've discovered. We may learn about issues that we were previously unaware of or share a few new tricks.

 

 

 

Just to lighten the mood, I'll share some insights. Did you know that:

 

• There are still ways to Smash for 7-8k, specced full Shii-Cho, yet switched to Soresu Form?
   
  
• Saving Enrage for a Charge in Vengeance and then using Enraged Defence while you Ravage(when under attack), will totally confuse and piss people off?
   
  
• Using Saber Ward just before the last tick of an opponent's Ravage, will parry it?
   
  
• You can strafe 180* around someone in 1 GCD by using either Sundering Assault or Vicious Slash?
  

 

 

If you want to learn more about what I speaking about, you'll need to /bow and spar with me in-game.

[ssfish]

If you want to learn more about what I speaking about, you'll need to /bow and spar with me in-game.

 

Don't do it, it's a trap!

 

In all seriousness, Hadyn pretty much covered it. Don't participate if you don't want to, but why have the forums if we aren't going to use them to discuss all aspects of our class, including things that people feel could/should be improved?

[benovide]

AS having had several Tank Jugg and Tank Guardians, and now leveling my final Jugg Tank:

Create a CC

Give us not one, but two different abilities to close the gap, either another jump ability, or a teleport, or force speed ability.

Give us more AOEs like the Powertech has. (The only real tank competitor)

 

If they did this, the Tank Specced/geared Jugg would be a real contendor in Arena PVP.

[Jasuke]

Just curious...and this may have been mentioned before though I did not see it...but what about force scream being one of the options to give rampage? Not sure how that would work or if it would be viable, but would change things up a bit.

[lordbadtamaru]

Well that would work, but it needs to be free, scream needs to be far more reliable in our rotation.

[OfficerStampe]

After playing MMO's for about 6 years now I can safely say that the saddest part about PvP is that no players are ever satisfied with what they have.

they always want.

 

great utility.

great damage/burst

lots of great defensive CDs

lots of great offensive CDs

 

And the whine never ends until they're the FOTM Class.

so that they can have the privilege of whining about the FOTM re-rollers too.

 

If PvP is supposed to be balanced, all classes can't have everything. If you give that to all classes you get a game like WoW where everything dies in a global.. Or some classes have insane damage and insane control (Frost Mages).

PvP'ers need to realize that you can't have it all.

[tunewalker]

I am only going to talk about Veng in PvE.

 

Lets just say it needs a blanket buff, its one of the lowest single dps out there in addition to being unreliable.

 

To top it all off a person playing Veng in Pve has to deal with these weaknesses

 

Dot Spec weakness of bosses that become immune during certain portions of the fight thus wasting portions of your dot. Insta damage specs don't need to worry about this because when they hit the boss the full damage is done. (what makes DoTs good in some games, allowing you to deal damage to a boss when no one can reach him, is exactly why they suck in this game because you lose the damage when no one can reach him because he becomes immune and the DoT doesn't stick on him.)

 

Melee Weaknesses. Lets face it, we are melee so one of the things we have to deal with is having to be in range of the boss. This is rarely an issue in DF or DP these days but still needs to be listed here.

 

Caster Weakness. As the spec that relies on Ravage for Damage in addition to being a melee we are now also largely a caster, meaning our dps drops further when we have to move, no other melee class suffers from this.

 

Burst dps weaknesses. This is the one people don't expect, but Veng actually partially suffers from the same weaknesses a burst class can suffer from. That being, with out procing, it can not sustain itself. If we do not get the very unreliable Ravage proc, we can not sustain ourselves and we run out of Rage. In this respect RAGE is actually better at self sustaining then Veng is.

 

 

 

1 or 2 weaknesses are fine but when a player is dealing with this many inherent weaknesses in a boss fight and managing to overcome all of them with skill then that player should be rewarded with great damage for his efforts. Instead such players must contend with all of these things just to scrape by at the bottom of the barrel dps.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=683087 (pre 2.4 Vangaurd buffs)

[UndyingHadyn]

After playing MMO's for about 6 years now I can safely say that the saddest part about PvP is that no players are ever satisfied with what they have.

they always want.

 

great utility.

great damage/burst

lots of great defensive CDs

lots of great offensive CDs

 

And the whine never ends until they're the FOTM Class.

so that they can have the privilege of whining about the FOTM re-rollers too.

 

If PvP is supposed to be balanced, all classes can't have everything. If you give that to all classes you get a game like WoW where everything dies in a global.. Or some classes have insane damage and insane control (Frost Mages).

PvP'ers need to realize that you can't have it all.

 

 

Having control of offencive and defensive abilities, is what determines good pvp. The problem with swtor, is there are too many passives. Passive defensive traits are nothing more than bioware's futile attempts at last-minute balancing attempts. In reality they have no purpose unless each class can sacrifice damage potential to attain them.

 

Take a look at 30%AOE damage reduction. That there is the most obvious example of bio-fail class mechanics. 30% mitigation is huge...HUGE, but only certain classes get access to it. Look at the pvp leaderboards, you'll see the percentage of successful classes, are the ones who possess this free and automatic survivabilty.

 

That's just one example.

 

Now you are saying that players all moan for moar, well yeah, there are ****tonnes of degenerates that cry, but there are also boatloads more that do flock to unbalanced classes. Abusing imbalances or class mechanics to get a win is like a disease for many others as well. Look at the pvp forums, it's filled with crybabys throwing out ultimatums, or stroking their e-peens.

 

Juggernaut's weaknesses have only become more apparent due to arenas, but have always been there. Anyone who's been around the block, knows how easy it is to focus one of us down. It's ok, jugs strut around on the battlefield like the boss, everywhere we go. People hate us because we're kool lol.

 

At any rate, people know that our class is underpowered compared to many others in game. Achieving victory with your jug means more than achieving victory with a different class (providing low levels of self-respect lol). Same respect goes to the dps operatives I've seen in the past. I've seen them on my team, I'll give them a nod, see what kind of hell we can unleash together. Others would undoubtedly as you suggest, start crying and complaining that the match was already lost.

[OfficerStampe]

Having control of offensive and defensive abilities, is what determines good pvp. The problem with swtor, is there are too many passives. Passive defensive traits are nothing more than bioware's futile attempts at last-minute balancing attempts. In reality they have no purpose unless each class can sacrifice damage potential to attain them.

 

Yes, correct usage of offensive and defensive abilities is what determines a good PvP'er. But a pure damage dealer class with too many of both, will become too strong. This problem also works the other way. For Hybrids, having too few of either can also make them too weak to compete. In this game, there's no sacrifice for the pure damage dealer's great defense. But other classes have to give away defensive capabilities because they are hybrid, as an example, the Sorcerer's lack of defensive capabilities are brushed aside by the developers because they can "off-heal".

Of course I am not implying that sorcerers need "fixing" on that point, I am saying that the other classes must be put on-par with that philosophy.

 

Now you are saying that players all moan for moar, well yeah, there are ****tonnes of degenerates that cry, but there are also boatloads more that do flock to unbalanced classes. Abusing imbalances or class mechanics to get a win is like a disease for many others as well. Look at the pvp forums, it's filled with crybabys throwing out ultimatums, or stroking their e-peens.

 

One of the causes of this problem is "elitist jerks", most people think that min/maxing is for everyone - even the casual player. Players are now under the assumption that picking a class that does 200 - 400 less DPS/healing than another class is completely useless.

 

Juggernaut's weaknesses have only become more apparent due to arenas, but have always been there. Anyone who's been around the block, knows how easy it is to focus one of us down. It's ok, jugs strut around on the battlefield like the boss, everywhere we go. People hate us because we're kool lol.

 

Honestly, I haven't played juggernaut, but I did play the Marauder to 50. I am not sure which weaknesses they have, but it can't be worse than sorcerers.

You should take a look at them, it is ridiculous how quickly they die.

 

At any rate, people know that our class is underpowered compared to many others in game. Achieving victory with your jug means more than achieving victory with a different class (providing low levels of self-respect lol). Same respect goes to the dps operatives I've seen in the past. I've seen them on my team, I'll give them a nod, see what kind of hell we can unleash together. Others would undoubtedly as you suggest, start crying and complaining that the match was already lost.

 

I actually came to this forum to see if it was a good idea to roll a Juggernaut... Wasn't really sure where they were standing. I just returned to the game. I just wish that I could play my Madness Assassin.. but that ****'s underpowered too.. Oh wait, ALL classes in MMO's always tend to be OP or UP, at the same time. depending on who you ask.

Edited December 31, 2013 by OfficerStampe

[UndyingHadyn]

Yes, correct usage of offensive and defensive abilities is what determines a good PvP'er. But a pure damage dealer class with too many of both, will become too strong. This problem also works the other way. For Hybrids, having too few of either can also make them too weak to compete. In this game, there's no sacrifice for the pure damage dealer's great defense. But other classes have to give away defensive capabilities because they are hybrid, as an example, the Sorcerer's lack of defensive capabilities are brushed aside by the developers because they can "off-heal".

Of course I am not implying that sorcerers need "fixing" on that point, I am saying that the other classes must be put on-par with that philosophy.

 

 

 

One of the causes of this problem is "elitist jerks", most people think that min/maxing is for everyone - even the casual player. Players are now under the assumption that picking a class that does 200 - 400 less DPS/healing than another class is completely useless.

 

 

 

Honestly, I haven't played juggernaut, but I did play the Marauder to 50. I am not sure which weaknesses they have, but it can't be worse than sorcerers.

You should take a look at them, it is ridiculous how quickly they die.

 

 

 

I actually came to this forum to see if it was a good idea to roll a Juggernaut... Wasn't really sure where they were standing. I just returned to the game. I just wish that I could play my Madness Assassin.. but that ****'s underpowered too.. Oh wait, ALL classes in MMO's always tend to be OP or UP, at the same time. depending on who you ask.

 

k, well thanks for coming out and expressing some generic views and random thoughts. As time goes on, DPS Juggernauts, in arenas, are becoming the weakest link in the "yolo que" food chain. It's common knowledge more now than ever, for even the hordes of "smash complainers" have been subdued by the abundance of fact; smash jugs die fast. We have no instant "get out of jail" cards up our sleeves. It has always been this way, but smaller arena battlefields have amplified our weaknesses ten-fold.

 

If you decide to tank, you'll enjoy more action on the battlefield, per say, but unless you're up against in-experienced opponents, you'll be taking dirt-naps as soon as you leave the rez pad. Regular casual pvp play? Oh yeah, you'll do fine with a jug, and you'll also have alot of fun leveling it up.