But have they gone too far?

[Pietrastor]

Maybe I should draw this so you can understand. I am not talking about the assassins, I am talking about Kreia and Nihilus. Don't change the subject. Kreia's usage of it is overblown and unwelcome.

Maybe I should put it in Morse code so you could understand. Overpowered happens when it's highly above the standard, like Nihilus. Not when it's just like 58279233 assassins in the same game.

 

And yes, if you compare Star Wars to the real world, the Force is overblown. But this is not the comparison I am making. The comparison is between real Star Wars and KotOR 2. In which case, yes, those stupid abilities are overblown. Compare these:

 

Force Choke vs. Planet-wide Force Drain

Force Lightning vs. Kill-the-Force

Tutaminis (Yoda absorbing lightning with his bare hand) vs. Survive being struck down by a lightsaber unharmed for consecutive times

 

There's your context for comparison. Hence, KotOR 2 is overblown.

Yes, there are overblown powers in KOTOR 2. Who's saying not? The difference is that it works as there's purpouse and point to it, not just power for the sake of power.

 

"Force addiction" doesn't exist. And you got the Sith all wrong. Read the Darth Plagueis novel, where it is explicit what the Sith philosophy really means.

There's as many Sith philosophies as SIth out there, same for Jedi, same for religion in real life etc.

 

Besides, yet again you are changing the focus of the discussion. Nobody is arguing the "literary virtues" of KotOR 2 (to me, there are none). People are wondering whether or not Star Wars would be a better place without all this overblown crap introduced in the EU.

Maybe it would be. But I can tell you 1 thing for sure - it would be worse series without KOTOR 2.

 

Stop with these comparisons. In K2, the overblown powers are as much a plot device as in TOR. It doesn't matter that the authors went to great lengths to explain its sources. It doesn't matter that there is character development. It doesn't matter that it revolves around personal themes. The plot could have achieved all that without the cheese of the superpowers.

And what would TOR's general Emperor plot achieve if you removed superpowers? That's my point. You remove "over 9000!" from the Emperor and there's nothing left. Not the case with Kreia.

 

That's not how the Force is supposed to operate.

Says who??

 

 

He is not Lovecraftian without a Lovecraftian story now, is he?

Yep, that's how lovecraftian stories make their 'villains' work. Edited December 19, 2013 by Pietrastor

[Karkais]

Pales? Meetra butters him up with a lightsaber, and he doesn't die. She then proceeds to butter him up with a lightsaber for the second time and he still doesn't die. So, she butters him up with a lightsaber for the third time, and she needs to convince him to die so that he will die. So apparently he's impervious to a lightsaber. And you're trying to convince me that is not disproportionately OP?

 

Oh how many times I have 'buttered up' someone with a lightsaber in this game and they just take X points of damage instead of dying

 

But I wanted to point out that Satele Shan deflects Malgus's lightsaber WITH HER BARE HANDS in the SWTOR 'hope' trailer. Is that comparable?

 

I like overpowered Sith since it is what Sith strive toward really. But I agree with other people in that villains who have no personality and are more like forces of nature are really boring. Vitiate is like that and so on.

 

I also agree that nothing should ever top Vitiates level of power.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Karkais

[Stinghen]

Maybe I should put it in Morse code so you could understand. Overpowered happens when it's highly above the standard, like Nihilus. Not when it's just like 58279233 assassins in the same game.

 

So because there are a whole bunch of crap assassins, suddenly it's alright to have a zombie Sith, a world-devourer and Darth Traya? That's the point. I am not discussing Force Drain, I'm discussing how dumb the Sith trio is because of its superpowers.

 

Yes, there are overblown powers in KOTOR 2. Who's saying not? The difference is that it works as there's purpouse and point to it, not just power for the sake of power.

 

I didn't say you were denying. But you are justifying their presence. Go ahead, you're entitled to it. But my opinion is that, background or no, point or no, storytelling or no, superpowers are never a welcome addition to any franchise. Whether you like it or not, KotOR 2 contributes quite a bit to the Dragon Ball race of stupid powers.

 

You have also spoke a lot of Vitiate. But you forgot that the very character's concept was introduced in K2, both in the form of Nihilus and in the mysterious true Sith that loomed in the edge of known space, the "source" of the Triumvirate's Force Drain.

 

There's as many Sith philosophies as SIth out there, same for Jedi, same for religion in real life etc.

 

Here's what I mean - Jedi serve the Force. Sith try to have the Force serve them. No addiction alluded to, not even by Kreia. Kreia in fact states a belief very close to the true Sith code (chains shall be broken, anyone?) when she says that the Force having a will was an abhorrent thing, and that sentient beings should instead take counsel from their own wills. Her chosen modus operandi was to level the field and remove the bearer of the will, ergo, destroy the Force. Or deafen the galaxy to it or whatever she thought she could achieve.

 

And, regardless of their incarnation, the Sith have always stuck to that little tenet (of having the Force obey their will, rather than the other way around). In fact, it's what they were founded upon. Twisting reality to achieve their goals. It doesn't matter if it's Two, One, an Order or a Brotherhood, Sith will be Sith, it's not the red lightsaber and Force lightning that defines them. It's how they seek to use the Force.

 

Maybe it would be. But I can tell you 1 thing for sure - it would be worse series without KOTOR 2.

 

I'm not dealing in "ifs". That alone does not serve the argument that you're trying to make, that Star Wars needs OP crap.

 

And what would TOR's general Emperor plot achieve if you removed superpowers? That's my point. You remove "over 9000!" from the Emperor and there's nothing left. Not the case with Kreia.

 

Who's arguing that Vitiate is better or worse than any other OP character? Oh, right. You are. I don't give two damns about Vitiate, mate. He's as bad as the others. No, not worse. At least in TOR, he's all alone in his OP nonsense, and doesn't have a bunch of companions each with his unique superpower.

 

Says who??

 

Uhm, let me guess... What should really feel like Star Wars? Maybe the films, yeah. Let's analyse this.

 

Yoda: He's the strongest Force-user around, bar Anakin. But he's more practiced anyways. He can't pull a Star Detroyer out from orbit - lifting a heavy column is difficult enough that he has to stop fighting to do it.

 

Anakin Skywalker: Truly, the most powerful Force-user in his time, though a bit reckless, and less experienced then others. He still gets chopped up, and burned alive. What's the result? He survived because of his rage, an amazing feat, but he's worthless without a pressurised armoured suit.

 

Darth Sidious: The most powerful Sith Lord to have ever lived. Does he destroy planets? No. Does he insta-fry three Jedi Masters because he's that awesome? Well, yeah, but he does it with a lightsaber. That detail makes it, you know, believable in the context of the universe where he should belong to. Some scary things he can do with the Force? Fry you slowly with his lightning (which could still be countered, vide Windu and Yoda), or throw the whole Senate at you. Piece by piece, though.

 

Luke: The son of the top 1 Force-user (before he was crippled) Anakin. What can he do? Well... Beat Vader. But he can't really raise an X-Wing from the bog (at least early on in his training).

 

No room in there for mind tricks on Jedi Masters (like Kreia does for sport), zombie Sith, or eating whole worlds/galaxies, pulling Star Destroyers from orbit, or solo-killing quadrillions of stormtroopers or whatever these types of characters have been seen doing.

 

Like Luke asked Yoda:

 

"Is the Dark Side stronger?

 

No! Quicker, easier, more seductive."

 

Nothing in there about absolute, unbridled, unstoppable, galaxy-destroying powers of any sort. The Force is not D&D magic. In the films. Unfortunately, in the EU, people don't seem to agree, because superpowers appeal to children. So all I can hope for is that at Disney they put a lid on that sort of thing. Maybe that's hoping too much, but I've grown tired of this discussion at any rate. So cheerio.

[LordGarmaZabi]

I don't think it went too far, no. In the movies, Obi Wan explains that the force runs through all things, to harness such a thing leading to great power is not beyond a stretch of the imagination,

[Path-x]

They went way too far with all those things.

[Girdeux]

 

Like Luke asked Yoda:

 

"Is the Dark Side stronger?

 

No! Quicker, easier, more seductive."

 

Jedi Propaganda. The real answer:

 

"...to become the most powerful Jedi, and the only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark side because the Dark side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side, which is the Dark side..." - George Lucas [AOTC commentary]

[Stinghen]

Jedi Propaganda. The real answer:

 

"...to become the most powerful Jedi, and the only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark side because the Dark side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side, which is the Dark side..." - George Lucas [AOTC commentary]

 

That commentary may be true (it's arguable, from what the movies show us, which doesn't contribute necessarily to the discussion so I won't go into the finer details). But even if it is true, that still doesn't leave any room for any OP crap. There is no limit to what the Force can do, but the limits of what an individual can do with the Force do exist, as Luke, with all his Force-awesomeness cannot raise an X-Wing from the bog, and Anakin with all of his Dark Side potency can't manage to beat Obi-wan.Same with Palpatine/Yoda.

[OddballEasyEight]

The various EU writers by necessity have had to expand on Lucas' original writings. A lot of it is really creative and well done. But leaving aside all canon vs. non-canon questions, I couldn't help thinking they'd went way over the top with some of their ideas. Referencing Kotor 2 and Drew Karpyshyn's Revan novel, I was considering 3 incidents in particular:

 

1. Traya's trying to kill the Force thing.

2. What Nihilus did at Katarr.

3. What the Emperor did at Nathema.

 

I wanted to know what the crowd thinks. Do people think that the writers went overboard with these ideas, and whether yay or nay, was it necessary to go this far to make the stories work?

 

For the record I loved Kotor 2 even with all the issues it had, Traya is one of my favorite NPCs of all time, and I do appreciate Drew's writing.

 

Well, considering the Clone Wars included some near-godlike beings (the fater, the son and the daughter) as "embodyments of the force" with Lucas' blessing, I'd say that none of the things you brought forth are too far fetched...

In fact, I'd call them pretty tame in comparison

[OddballEasyEight]

Jedi Propaganda. The real answer:

 

"...to become the most powerful Jedi, and the only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark side because the Dark side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side, which is the Dark side..." - George Lucas [AOTC commentary]

 

Yeah, but that confused individual also said that noting can block a lightsaber except another lightsaber... and then promptly let Grievus' droids block lightsabers with their electrostaffs...

[Scutum]

I think the thing with Traya was perfectly fine, and with the other two they could have simply scaled it down a bit. Have Nihilus and the emperor just drain a city sized area instead of a whole planet and that would still be impressive.

 

I think the old republic era has far less crazy overblown things than the EU after the original trilogy. Oneness with the force, super weapons like the sun-crusher, and force entities are just some of the things I think have taken things too far in the Post ROTJ era. Compared to that the old republic is quite tame.

 

The whole point of KOTOR 2 was that the main character and the Sith Triumvirate were wounds in the force. All of them had some major characteristic that the wound empowered to the point of them being consumed by it. Nihilus' addiction to power, Sion's anger and self-hate, and the exile's leadership capabilities were all taken to a whole new level by the force and that's why they are so powerful.

 

Traya was hoping to rid the galaxy of the force in general since she said it was what was hurting the galaxy. It could be argued that she was right, since if you look at almost every major conflict in SW there was usually some Jedi or Sith behind it. That's why I never saw her as an overblown feature, but as an individual with a radically different idea than everyone else.

 

In the end, it could be argued that the Jedi and Sith should be more like the warrior-monks they are described as instead of the super-weapons some of them become, but as much of that can be blamed on Lucas himself so you can't just blame writers of the EU. It was him who allowed the stuff in the prequels and clone wars series to happen.

[ninjasqurl]

Nah, Midichlorians and the Infinite Empire was a bit too far for me.