But have they gone too far?

[Stinghen]

One of the most lovely things about Star Wars in my opinion is that there was no Goku. And that is true on both trilogies. From Qui-gon Jinn's words:

 

"Maybe I killed a Jedi and took it from him.

 

That's impossible. No one can kill a Jedi.

 

I wish that were true."

 

To the very culmination of Order 66.

 

From Vader showing how awesome the Force was in comparison to the Death Star by merely choking the Imperial Officer, to Luke's own shortcomings as a Jedi in training. And in the end, when confronted with Darth Sidious, this "eldritch creature", when he displayed a truly astounding power... Force lightning. But never did the story revolve around "Force chokes and Force lightning" or whatever overblown power exists. The story did not depend upon these superpowers either. That is why that sort of story is far superior to anything the EU can spit out, and that revolves about the absurd superpowers that were introduced by over-eager authors.

 

Down with KotOR 2, long live the Trilogies. Down with Vitiate, long live Emperor Palpatine (pre-resurrection). Down with Revan/Surik/Galen Marek/Über Luke, long live Qui-gon/Obi-wan/Anakin/Yoda/Real Luke.

 

Someone can argue "but the Force is supernatural/controls the universe" or that "it's fantasy, everything's permitted". Doesn't matter. OP crap is still dumb. Should never be the center of storytelling.

[dazednconfuzed]

Someone can argue "but the Force is supernatural/controls the universe" or that "it's fantasy, everything's permitted". Doesn't matter. OP crap is still dumb. Should never be the center of storytelling.

 

I kind half agree and half disagree. OP crap can be good, if done well. Dark Empire was well written, but the OP crap there had a lot to be desired - the Emperor Reborn, The Eclipse, World Devourers, and so on.

 

Darksaber, on the other hand, wasn't very well written, but it had an acceptable reason for there being a superweapon other than 'Needs to be bigger and badder'. Namely, a scientist who worked on the original Death Star project fell into a Hutt's hands

[LayneStaley]

Yep. The mysticism of the force is gone. It was, in my opinion, something that we should rarely see. If you can alter a mind you are very powerful. Don't keep adding powers that's more and more in line with TFU and Biowares stuff. *shudders*

[Stinghen]

I kind half agree and half disagree. OP crap can be good, if done well. Dark Empire was well written, but the OP crap there had a lot to be desired - the Emperor Reborn, The Eclipse, World Devourers, and so on.

 

You make a good point. There may be good storytelling, even with overblown powers. But good storytelling doesn't need that. When you have nearly god-like characters, be it because they are personally too powerful (Vitiate, Nihilus, Traya, Galen Marek, I'm talking about you. Crawl into holes and die), how can you truly relate to them? To me, the best traits of both Palpatine and Yoda that they are fallible. And their failibility makes them believable, and likable, as characters.

 

With Palpatine, you see this single man, who managed to turn the galaxy against the Jedi Order, who was a very powerful Dark Lord of the Sith who sat under the noses of the Jedi Council for Plagueis knows how long. And even so, with all of his wit, all of his power, his careful planning and his courage to seize power, he still could not destroy his arch-enemy, Yoda. Their duel ends in a draw, effectively. So, even though his victory was uncompromised, it was not complete, and Yoda's survival allowed the seeds for Sidious' destruction to sprout 22 years later.

 

It's even more interesting in the case of Yoda, because in the OT, Yoda seemed kind of untouchable. But when you actually see him in action (in the PT), you see the 900 year-old Jedi Master is not all-powerful. In many ways, he embodies the mistakes the Jedi have made for the past 1000 years, which led to the ultimate victory of the Sith. His wisdom only becomes complete when he realises his mistakes, and then he becomes the perfect Master for the first Jedi of a new generation - Luke Skywalker.

 

This is how I interpret their characters. This is what the story of Star Wars tells me. Good storytelling does not require OP stuff.

[JouerTue]

i dislike the idea of the emperor killing the entire galaxy..sw characters live in that habitat, and even if for us is fantasy they live inside borders of reality, jedi thing itelf is just a religion and the emperor shouldn't go so far from material power and some force research...

[Pietrastor]

You make a good point. There may be good storytelling, even with overblown powers. But good storytelling doesn't need that. When you have nearly god-like characters, be it because they are personally too powerful (Vitiate, Nihilus, Traya, Galen Marek, I'm talking about you. Crawl into holes and die), how can you truly relate to them? To me, the best traits of both Palpatine and Yoda that they are fallible. And their failibility makes them believable, and likable, as characters.

Why do you throw Traya and Nihilus with Vitiate and Galen? Traya is not uberpowerful in any way but her smarts. And Nihilus is precisely not suppoused to be relatable, his entire character is how's he's no longer a human but just a mindless entity that feeds itself. Vitiate and Galen are just uberpowerful. ig difference but hoenstly, I see most people don't get KOTOR2's story and characters. Edited December 12, 2013 by Pietrastor

[BrianDavion]

The various EU writers by necessity have had to expand on Lucas' original writings. A lot of it is really creative and well done. But leaving aside all canon vs. non-canon questions, I couldn't help thinking they'd went way over the top with some of their ideas. Referencing Kotor 2 and Drew Karpyshyn's Revan novel, I was considering 3 incidents in particular:

 

1. Traya's trying to kill the Force thing.

2. What Nihilus did at Katarr.

3. What the Emperor did at Nathema.

 

I wanted to know what the crowd thinks. Do people think that the writers went overboard with these ideas, and whether yay or nay, was it necessary to go this far to make the stories work?

 

For the record I loved Kotor 2 even with all the issues it had, Traya is one of my favorite NPCs of all time, and I do appreciate Drew's writing.

 

 

 

yes they went overboard.

[Stinghen]

Why do you throw Traya and Nihilus with Vitiate and Galen? Traya is not uberpowerful in any way but her smarts. And Nihilus is precisely not suppoused to be relatable, his entire character is how's he's no longer a human but just a mindless entity that feeds itself. Vitiate and Galen are just uberpowerful. ig difference but hoenstly, I see most people don't get KOTOR2's story and characters.

 

Hahaha! I don't get the story! I get it all too well, that's why I dislike it. Here's why I throw them into the bag and set them all on fire.

 

"Darth Traya" can go invisible. Force invisibility goes into the OP Force abilities that I think the EU would be better off without. Asides from that, she can conveniently mind-trick all the Jedi Council (as if all the Jedi Council had the weak minds Obi-wan speaks of when he refers to mind tricks), so they conveniently forget she ever existed, or she is even there. Cheesy plot device, wanting to make Darth Traya like Palpatine, but more OP. Again. People resent that "most powerful Sith Lord" fact very badly. At every turn some villain pops up who does what Palpatine does but in a more absurd overblown manner.

 

"Darth Traya" could insta-kill three council members, with the Force Drain she previously stated could not be directed by the will, but was instead an innate ability that one could not control. Why could she not simply fight them off and kill them one by one, Palpatine-style? Because it'd be much cooler and more believable?

 

"Darth Traya" can kill the Force, or create the Force wounds at a whim, apparently. Or at least she plans to. Or at least she thinks she can. Nuff said.

 

"Darth Nihilus" can chow down on an entire planet. That's plain dumb. It's the only thing that defines the character, because all other traits derive from his stupid OP ability. I don't even count him on the hall of the Sith Lords, because he's just the sorriest excuse amongst OP characters. Vitiate is better than Nihilus. But they'd all go into the sack, and be set on fire.

[Pietrastor]

Hahaha! I don't get the story! I get it all too well, that's why I dislike it. Here's why I throw them into the bag and set them all on fire.

 

"Darth Traya" can go invisible. Force invisibility goes into the OP Force abilities that I think the EU would be better off without. Asides from that, she can conveniently mind-trick all the Jedi Council (as if all the Jedi Council had the weak minds Obi-wan speaks of when he refers to mind tricks), so they conveniently forget she ever existed, or she is even there. Cheesy plot device, wanting to make Darth Traya like Palpatine, but more OP. Again. People resent that "most powerful Sith Lord" fact very badly. At every turn some villain pops up who does what Palpatine does but in a more absurd overblown manner.

 

"Darth Traya" could insta-kill three council members, with the Force Drain she previously stated could not be directed by the will, but was instead an innate ability that one could not control. Why could she not simply fight them off and kill them one by one, Palpatine-style? Because it'd be much cooler and more believable?

None of this ain't something that hasn't been done many times but countless other Jedi/Sith, including in KOTOR 2 itself - the entire faction of assassins is based around the Force Drain technique.

 

"Darth Traya" can kill the Force, or create the Force wounds at a whim, apparently. Or at least she plans to. Or at least she thinks she can. Nuff said.

And here's the part that shows that you really don't get the story, even the basics. She can't create wounds at whim. She tries to use events and people to make them happen. Like seriously, if she could just do it herself (and thus kill the Force all by lifting a finger) she wouldn't have to reach out for the Exile, Sion, Nihilus, Atris. She CAN'T do it herself. Nor can anyone. Wounds get made by multiple people during specific events such as catastrophic loss in life for example.

 

"Darth Nihilus" can chow down on an entire planet. That's plain dumb. It's the only thing that defines the character, because all other traits derive from his stupid OP ability. I don't even count him on the hall of the Sith Lords, because he's just the sorriest excuse amongst OP characters. Vitiate is better than Nihilus. But they'd all go into the sack, and be set on fire.

Yes, taht's th point, he is not suppoused to have a character. The point of his existance is to show how far can one fall, to the point he has nothing left of a human being except the body. Nihilus is just a vegetable that wants to feed itself. Vititate in this context is much worse written because he has exactly as huge power as Nihilus while keeping his senses intact, making him much more overpowered for no reason than to be overpowered.

[Stinghen]

None of this ain't something that hasn't been done many times but countless other Jedi/Sith, including in KOTOR 2 itself - the entire faction of assassins is based around the Force Drain technique.

 

That's beside the point.

 

And here's the part that shows that you really don't get the story, even the basics. She can't create wounds at whim. She tries to use events and people to make them happen. Like seriously, if she could just do it herself (and thus kill the Force all by lifting a finger) she wouldn't have to reach out for the Exile, Sion, Nihilus, Atris. She CAN'T do it herself. Nor can anyone. Wounds get made by multiple people during specific events such as catastrophic loss in life for example.

 

Still leaves the problem of her knowing how to "destroy the Force". And I don't give a bantha's crap on how she intends to destroy the Force, it's distasteful enough that she is capable of it without going into too much detail. Besides, how could I have forgotten one other absurd - Darth Sion-survives-lightsaber-blows-repeated-times too.Thanks for reminding me of him.

 

Yes, taht's th point, he is not suppoused to have a character. The point of his existance is to show how far can one fall, to the point he has nothing left of a human being except the body. Nihilus is just a vegetable that wants to feed itself. Vititate in this context is much worse written because he has exactly as huge power as Nihilus while keeping his senses intact, making him much more overpowered for no reason than to be overpowered.

 

This here sentence shows that the very thing you like about KotOR 2 is the overblown superpowers. Don't remember if I said this before... if a story inherently depends on OP crap, it is fundamentally flawed. And KotOR 2 doesn't depend on one, or two, pieces of OP stuff. It depends on, quite literally, craploads of it.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Stinghen

[Pietrastor]

That's beside the point.

No it isn't. Overpowered is when a character can do something so much better others can't, not when every assassin in the game can do the same.

 

Still leaves the problem of her knowing how to "destroy the Force". And I don't give a bantha's crap on how she intends to destroy the Force, it's distasteful enough that she is capable of it without going into too much detail. Besides, how could I have forgotten one other absurd - Darth Sion-survives-lightsaber-blows-repeated-times too.Thanks for reminding me of him.

Sion's probably the weakest of the 3, but his 'power' of survival pales in comparsion to Nihilus/Vitiate. And as for Kreia, detail is important. But if you don't want detail, I'll put it the simple way - KOTOR 2 is the Star Wars' edition of "how to kill the God/how to disobey the God" wrapped in rather relevant and topical to the modern audience self-determination theme. Very fresh and interesting concept for this franchise, compared to "I wanna rule the world trololo Viviate wuz here".

 

This here sentence shows that the very thing you like about KotOR 2 is the overblown superpowers. Don't remember if I said this before... if a story inherently depends on OP crap, it is fundamentally flawed. And KotOR 2 doesn't depend on one, or two, pieces of OP stuff. It depends on, quite literally, craploads of it.

I don't like nor dislike overblown superpowers, it's all about the context and how well the concept is executed and motivated and if there is a point to it. In KOTOR 2, there's a point to the overblown powers, in TOR there's not. Vitiate is super powerful cause he is and will rule the world. That's Sunday cartoon motivation. Edited December 13, 2013 by Pietrastor

[Stinghen]

No it isn't. Overpowered is when a character can do something so much better others can't, not when every assassin in the game can do the same.

 

It is beside the point because I was talking about Kreia's powers, not the other assassins. Kreia's power is ridiculously overblown, because she can execute three Jedi masters in an instant with her power. Are you really trying to convince me it is not overblown? Please.

 

Sion's probably the weakest of the 3, but his 'power' of survival pales in comparsion to Nihilus/Vitiate.

 

Pales? Meetra butters him up with a lightsaber, and he doesn't die. She then proceeds to butter him up with a lightsaber for the second time and he still doesn't die. So, she butters him up with a lightsaber for the third time, and she needs to convince him to die so that he will die. So apparently he's impervious to a lightsaber. And you're trying to convince me that is not disproportionately OP?

 

And as for Kreia, detail is important. But if you don't want detail, I'll put it the simple way - KOTOR 2 is the Star Wars' edition of "how to kill the God/how to disobey the God" wrapped in rather relevant and topical to the modern audience self-determination theme. Very fresh and interesting concept for this franchise, compared to "I wanna rule the world trololo Viviate wuz here".

 

The thing you like about KotOR 2 is the thing I dislike about KotOR 2. You're not supposed to know how to kill the god. You can be self-determined without this overblown plot to destroy the Force. In fact, that is the fundamental difference between the Jedi and the Sith: while the Jedi follow the will of the Force, the Sith try to bend the Force to their will. So it's not all that fresh after all.

 

The Darth Plagueis novel is pretty much about that theme. I would be that interested in reading the story of a Sith Lord who realises he's only a slave to the Force. But if you give that Sith Lord the ability to destroy it, the story loses its charm, and the focus of the character shifts from the angst of being enslaved to a greater power than his own to this convoluted plot on how to destroy said greater power, and suddenly it's a Dragon Ball contest. It becomes impersonal, and deterministic.

 

Let me give you an example. Both trilogies could be all about the Death Star. But they are not. The Death Star is not the centre of the plot, the evil Empire is. The Empire does not need the Death Star to cause unwelcome harm in the galaxy, and Palpatine did not need a Death Star to get where he is. The Death Star is a manifestation for his murderous nature, his caring only for control above all things. Destroying the Death Star is a meaningless gesture, because the guy who envisioned its construction, who desired to use its power, still lives. So, the Empire came into being without a Death Star, and the Empire did not end when it was ultimately destroyed. The fate of the Death Star is not the fate of the galaxy.

 

I don't like nor dislike overblown superpowers, it's all about the context and how well the concept is executed and motivated and if there is a point to it. In KOTOR 2, there's a point to the overblown powers, in TOR there's not. Vitiate is super powerful cause he is and will rule the world. That's Sunday cartoon motivation.

 

This is precisely where we whole-heartedly disagree. A plot that revolves around one superpower/superweapon or another, rather than on the characters, is foolish to me. You see it like "Kids, I will tell you the story of Darth Traya, the cleverest betrayer evah", to me, it's like "Kids, I will tell you how one can destroy the Force and should/would do it". Because to me, your vision is snuffed by the second purpose. The thing that would define an interesting story "gets lost in the sh*tstorm", in my opinion.

 

Besides, the whole concept does not fit with the Star Wars universe. Why didn't Leia Organa, a Force-sensitive, turn into a black hole when she watched Alderaan be destroyed? Why ddin't Darth Vader, a Dark Sider, who would certain feel an ammount of wicked pleasure at the disturbance created by the death of the planet, not turn into a black hole? Because black holes are cheesy. The whole thing is too dramatic, when the Force is actually supposed to be a subtle thing. Choking someone with the Force is supposed to be a pretty big deal, Force lightning is as overblown as a Force power should be. Bashing a Star Destroyer, eating an entire planet, killing the Force? No. That sort of thing turns this faintly-defined field that subtly drives events into a contest on who's the most OP mofo. The Force is choked, once again, by the sh*tstorm.

 

Finally, you do not understand Vitiate's motivations. He is quite uninterested in ruling the galaxy. In his own words, he just wants to experience everything as he sees fit. He is so uninterested in actual control that he relegated control of the Empire to the Dark Council very early in the Empire's history. He did care to show who was boss from time to time, but it has been very well established that he did not care for the Sith Empire, or the Republic, or life in the galaxy.

 

Vitiate is the personification of the completely amoral character, as opposed to Palpatine, who's immoral - he can tell right from wrong, and he chooses wrong willingly. Vitiate doesn't care about right or wrong. Now this is really a fresh concept in Star Wars, but it still gets lost in his OP nonsense. This casualty I actually mourn, because he is an unconventional Sith and no mistake.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Stinghen

[myrsosoth]

 

 

This is precisely where we whole-heartedly disagree. A plot that revolves around one superpower/superweapon or another, rather than on the characters, is foolish to me. You see it like "Kids, I will tell you the story of Darth Traya, the cleverest betrayer evah", to me, it's like "Kids, I will tell you how one can destroy the Force and should/would do it". Because to me, your vision is snuffed by the second purpose. The thing that would define an interesting story "gets lost in the sh*tstorm", in my opinion.

.

 

I get your points. Lucas did use more finesse than the KOTOR writers did. However he also had his own plot holes because of it. A whole a Jedi council on Coruscant, and the whole time there's a powerful sith lord right next door, and they never figure it out. That whole "difficult to see, the Dark Side is" kind of ridiculous. It would have been made more sense for Palpatine to be managing things from afar. In some ways Lucas' writing is better. I thought he handled the whole Palpatine intrigue well, playing both sides, though in other ways he's not so good. His dialogue is right down there with Ed Wood at times.

 

As for Traya. I was never quite sure if she was supposed to be able to actually bring out about the death of the force, or if she just thought she could. Chris Avellone should have probably leaned more towards the latter. Insanity is always a good story, and what self-respecting sith lord hasn't lost their mind if they do it long enough?

[fdbgjfdhjgkjdhsg]

Can they please make a rule so super force powers don't exceed those of Vitalite. The same thing goes for things like the Death Star. All we need is a super weapon that can blow up the Galaxy next door because some sith lord will get a laugh out of it. If these do not become General rules who knows what will happen? They could have a sith in a mark 100,000,000 iron man suite.

[Pietrastor]

It is beside the point because I was talking about Kreia's powers, not the other assassins. Kreia's power is ridiculously overblown, because she can execute three Jedi masters in an instant with her power. Are you really trying to convince me it is not overblown? Please.

For something to be overblown there has to be non-overblown context. The context here is that every other assassin can do what she does, their entire faction is based on Force Drain technique. If we wetn with your logic then the entire concept of Force is overblown because it is, even in it's Episode IV version.

 

Pales? Meetra butters him up with a lightsaber, and he doesn't die. She then proceeds to butter him up with a lightsaber for the second time and he still doesn't die. So, she butters him up with a lightsaber for the third time, and she needs to convince him to die so that he will die. So apparently he's impervious to a lightsaber. And you're trying to convince me that is not disproportionately OP?

Compared to the power of killing the entire galaxy? I think the answer is obvious.

 

The thing you like about KotOR 2 is the thing I dislike about KotOR 2. You're not supposed to know how to kill the god. You can be self-determined without this overblown plot to destroy the Force. In fact, that is the fundamental difference between the Jedi and the Sith: while the Jedi follow the will of the Force, the Sith try to bend the Force to their will. So it's not all that fresh after all.

 

The Darth Plagueis novel is pretty much about that theme. I would be that interested in reading the story of a Sith Lord who realises he's only a slave to the Force. But if you give that Sith Lord the ability to destroy it, the story loses its charm, and the focus of the character shifts from the angst of being enslaved to a greater power than his own to this convoluted plot on how to destroy said greater power, and suddenly it's a Dragon Ball contest. It becomes impersonal, and deterministic.

 

Let me give you an example. Both trilogies could be all about the Death Star. But they are not. The Death Star is not the centre of the plot, the evil Empire is. The Empire does not need the Death Star to cause unwelcome harm in the galaxy, and Palpatine did not need a Death Star to get where he is. The Death Star is a manifestation for his murderous nature, his caring only for control above all things. Destroying the Death Star is a meaningless gesture, because the guy who envisioned its construction, who desired to use its power, still lives. So, the Empire came into being without a Death Star, and the Empire did not end when it was ultimately destroyed. The fate of the Death Star is not the fate of the galaxy.

Trying to figure out how to kill the God is part of the process to figure out how the "God" works and how/if you can influence that or separate yourself from it. And Sith don't bend anything, they're as fall deeply into the Force addiction which is precisely what Kreia despises. And Kreia's not interested in bending the Force, she's interested to either see it gone or finding a way to separate the galaxy from its influence (or rather 'will' as she said).

 

 

This is precisely where we whole-heartedly disagree. A plot that revolves around one superpower/superweapon or another, rather than on the characters, is foolish to me. You see it like "Kids, I will tell you the story of Darth Traya, the cleverest betrayer evah", to me, it's like "Kids, I will tell you how one can destroy the Force and should/would do it". Because to me, your vision is snuffed by the second purpose. The thing that would define an interesting story "gets lost in the sh*tstorm", in my opinion.

Except that everything superpower in KOTOR 2 is just an excuse for character study and personal themes (that I already mentioned many times) while in TOR it's not, it's just superpower plot device, nothing more.

 

Besides, the whole concept does not fit with the Star Wars universe. Why didn't Leia Organa, a Force-sensitive, turn into a black hole when she watched Alderaan be destroyed? Why ddin't Darth Vader, a Dark Sider, who would certain feel an ammount of wicked pleasure at the disturbance created by the death of the planet, not turn into a black hole? Because black holes are cheesy. The whole thing is too dramatic, when the Force is actually supposed to be a subtle thing. Choking someone with the Force is supposed to be a pretty big deal, Force lightning is as overblown as a Force power should be. Bashing a Star Destroyer, eating an entire planet, killing the Force? No. That sort of thing turns this faintly-defined field that subtly drives events into a contest on who's the most OP mofo. The Force is choked, once again, by the sh*tstorm.

Because the reason why Exile 'turned into black hole' is because of his unusually strong Force bonds with others. That's his one unique characteristic and the flaw that the writers used as a catlyst of events. It's the reason why Kreia's interested in him/her and it works because it is not "you were born with power to destroy the Force". It is just a tool that can't be used to achieve it but cannot be done at whim, just like that 'cause the Exile feels like doing one day. Neither Nihilus has been born with his overblown superpower. Vitiate is written to be like that from the get go though. What he can achieve is not either a side effect of Force overdosage (Nihilus) nor a talent in specific Force 'area' that on itself cannot achieve anything overpowered. Vitiate just has talent for uber-Force usage with unlimited capabilities 'just because'. Rather dark side Gary Stue, full with becoming a 'king' as a teenager and everything.

 

Finally, you do not understand Vitiate's motivations. He is quite uninterested in ruling the galaxy. In his own words, he just wants to experience everything as he sees fit. He is so uninterested in actual control that he relegated control of the Empire to the Dark Council very early in the Empire's history. He did care to show who was boss from time to time, but it has been very well established that he did not care for the Sith Empire, or the Republic, or life in the galaxy.

 

Vitiate is the personification of the completely amoral character, as opposed to Palpatine, who's immoral - he can tell right from wrong, and he chooses wrong willingly. Vitiate doesn't care about right or wrong. Now this is really a fresh concept in Star Wars, but it still gets lost in his OP nonsense. This casualty I actually mourn, because he is an unconventional Sith and no mistake.

So he's lovecraftian? Well that doesn't really fly because lovecraftian villain needs lovecraftian story (and the main hero if there is one) in order to 'work' at all and TOR's plot is nothing like that.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Jeez people...I hope you guys don't read DC or Marvel comics...you wanna talk about ridiculous powers. Though really I personally don't see anyone being "overpowered" as it is put in the SWU. Edited December 15, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Blackholeskipper]

Sion's probably the weakest of the 3, but his 'power' of survival pales in comparsion to Nihilus/Vitiate. And as for Kreia, detail is important. But if you don't want detail, I'll put it the simple way - KOTOR 2 is the Star Wars' edition of "how to kill the God/how to disobey the God" wrapped in rather relevant and topical to the modern audience self-determination theme. Very fresh and interesting concept for this franchise, compared to "I wanna rule the world trololo Viviate wuz here".

 

I don't like nor dislike overblown superpowers, it's all about the context and how well the concept is executed and motivated and if there is a point to it. In KOTOR 2, there's a point to the overblown powers, in TOR there's not. Vitiate is super powerful cause he is and will rule the world. That's Sunday cartoon motivation.

 

Trying to figure out how to kill the God is part of the process to figure out how the "God" works and how/if you can influence that or separate yourself from it. And Sith don't bend anything, they're as fall deeply into the Force addiction which is precisely what Kreia despises. And Kreia's not interested in bending the Force, she's interested to either see it gone or finding a way to separate the galaxy from its influence (or rather 'will' as she said).

 

Well put!

Finally, you do not understand Vitiate's motivations. He is quite uninterested in ruling the galaxy. In his own words, he just wants to experience everything as he sees fit. He is so uninterested in actual control that he relegated control of the Empire to the Dark Council very early in the Empire's history. He did care to show who was boss from time to time, but it has been very well established that he did not care for the Sith Empire, or the Republic, or life in the galaxy.

 

Vitiate is the personification of the completely amoral character, as opposed to Palpatine, who's immoral - he can tell right from wrong, and he chooses wrong willingly. Vitiate doesn't care about right or wrong. Now this is really a fresh concept in Star Wars, but it still gets lost in his OP nonsense. This casualty I actually mourn, because he is an unconventional Sith and no mistake.

 

Honestly, Vitiate's motivations don't make sense at all. Apparently he has the "patience of the stars" so he spends a thousand years planning the Sith's return to the galaxy... but then he can't handle a few decades of war and gets bored. Seriously, how's he going to handle flying around space all by his lonesome self?

 

He's like a Dragon Ball Z villain except he can't even get that right cause he can't be bothered to see his plans come to fruition.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Blackholeskipper

[Stinghen]

For something to be overblown there has to be non-overblown context. The context here is that every other assassin can do what she does, their entire faction is based on Force Drain technique. If we wetn with your logic then the entire concept of Force is overblown because it is, even in it's Episode IV version.

 

Maybe I should draw this so you can understand. I am not talking about the assassins, I am talking about Kreia and Nihilus. Don't change the subject. Kreia's usage of it is overblown and unwelcome.

 

And yes, if you compare Star Wars to the real world, the Force is overblown. But this is not the comparison I am making. The comparison is between real Star Wars and KotOR 2. In which case, yes, those stupid abilities are overblown. Compare these:

 

Force Choke vs. Planet-wide Force Drain

Force Lightning vs. Kill-the-Force

Tutaminis (Yoda absorbing lightning with his bare hand) vs. Survive being struck down by a lightsaber unharmed for consecutive times

 

There's your context for comparison. Hence, KotOR 2 is overblown.

 

Compared to the power of killing the entire galaxy? I think the answer is obvious.

 

I am not comparing Sion's power to anyone else's. You are. All I am saying is that it's a ridiculous power that has no business in the Star Wars continuity. It's overblown in the same proportion as all the other crap in K2. The fact he can't use it to kill the galaxy doesn't make it alright, see?

 

Trying to figure out how to kill the God is part of the process to figure out how the "God" works and how/if you can influence that or separate yourself from it. And Sith don't bend anything, they're as fall deeply into the Force addiction which is precisely what Kreia despises. And Kreia's not interested in bending the Force, she's interested to either see it gone or finding a way to separate the galaxy from its influence (or rather 'will' as she said).

 

"Force addiction" doesn't exist. And you got the Sith all wrong. Read the Darth Plagueis novel, where it is explicit what the Sith philosophy really means.

 

Besides, yet again you are changing the focus of the discussion. Nobody is arguing the "literary virtues" of KotOR 2 (to me, there are none). People are wondering whether or not Star Wars would be a better place without all this overblown crap introduced in the EU.

 

Except that everything superpower in KOTOR 2 is just an excuse for character study and personal themes (that I already mentioned many times) while in TOR it's not, it's just superpower plot device, nothing more.

 

Stop with these comparisons. In K2, the overblown powers are as much a plot device as in TOR. It doesn't matter that the authors went to great lengths to explain its sources. It doesn't matter that there is character development. It doesn't matter that it revolves around personal themes. The plot could have achieved all that without the cheese of the superpowers.

 

Because the reason why Exile 'turned into black hole' is because of his unusually strong Force bonds with others. That's his one unique characteristic and the flaw that the writers used as a catlyst of events. It's the reason why Kreia's interested in him/her and it works because it is not "you were born with power to destroy the Force". It is just a tool that can't be used to achieve it but cannot be done at whim, just like that 'cause the Exile feels like doing one day. Neither Nihilus has been born with his overblown superpower. Vitiate is written to be like that from the get go though. What he can achieve is not either a side effect of Force overdosage (Nihilus) nor a talent in specific Force 'area' that on itself cannot achieve anything overpowered. Vitiate just has talent for uber-Force usage with unlimited capabilities 'just because'. Rather dark side Gary Stue, full with becoming a 'king' as a teenager and everything.

 

I already said this too many times, but you're too fond of KotOR to get the point across. A good story doesn't need any superpowers to work. No ammount of justification or patching can change the fact that sort of story feels out of place in Star Wars. That's not how the Force is supposed to operate.

 

So he's lovecraftian? Well that doesn't really fly because lovecraftian villain needs lovecraftian story (and the main hero if there is one) in order to 'work' at all and TOR's plot is nothing like that.

 

He is not Lovecraftian without a Lovecraftian story now, is he? Vitiate is amoral, he doesn't need any other traits else to describe him, and no personality label so you can feel good about categorising him.

[Nerdymidgetkid]

I absolutely agree. I consider myself a massive Star Wars nerd, but expanded universes have never appealed to me for just this reason. You take something like the force. In the real Star Wars, it is used to manipulate objects, nothing fancy. If you are powerful and evil beyond measure, you can even use it to shoot lightning out of your hands.

 

In the prequels, Lucas tried to expand on the concept. In doing so, he made the massive mistake of trying to rationalize it, and have it make sense with the Medichlorians, forgetting that the force was supposed to be mystical and magical. We were all perfectly fine with it being a force that surrounds all of us and binds all life in the universe together. It didn't need to be scientific--it should never have been.

 

Now, let us look at SWTOR. Who remembers Thanaton doing that weird-lightning-flying thing? And apparently, you can even use the force as a combat-healing tool. No, I'm not talking about healing the sick here, I mean literally removing someone's injuries as they happen. That was never in the scope of what you could do with the force? Neither could use it to create fear, like the Dread Masters, or make weird fields of dark energy.

 

I've never read the comics or watched the Clone Wars or anything like that, because I know they would be much worse. If you go too deep into a universe, it becomes so expanded that it's unrecognizable, and so I think I totally understand where you're coming from here.

[Eksenia]

One of the most lovely things about Star Wars in my opinion is that there was no Goku. And that is true on both trilogies. From Qui-gon Jinn's words:

 

"Maybe I killed a Jedi and took it from him.

 

That's impossible. No one can kill a Jedi.

 

I wish that were true."

 

To the very culmination of Order 66.

 

From Vader showing how awesome the Force was in comparison to the Death Star by merely choking the Imperial Officer, to Luke's own shortcomings as a Jedi in training. And in the end, when confronted with Darth Sidious, this "eldritch creature", when he displayed a truly astounding power... Force lightning. But never did the story revolve around "Force chokes and Force lightning" or whatever overblown power exists. The story did not depend upon these superpowers either. That is why that sort of story is far superior to anything the EU can spit out, and that revolves about the absurd superpowers that were introduced by over-eager authors.

 

Down with KotOR 2, long live the Trilogies. Down with Vitiate, long live Emperor Palpatine (pre-resurrection). Down with Revan/Surik/Galen Marek/Über Luke, long live Qui-gon/Obi-wan/Anakin/Yoda/Real Luke.

 

Someone can argue "but the Force is supernatural/controls the universe" or that "it's fantasy, everything's permitted". Doesn't matter. OP crap is still dumb. Should never be the center of storytelling.

 

This so much.

[SuperGrunt]

Nihilus' overpowered ability was the to add to Kreia's point. It went too far when Emperor Vitiate was given the same level of power without losing his mind at all. Nihilus ability was accidental and more of a natural-phenomenon kind of a side effect of Force "overusage". Vitiate was written to be just "that uber powerful". Which is much worse.

 

As for Kreia, it was an absolutely brilliant idea for a character, "how to kill/disobey the God" theme hasn't been done nor analyzed in SW prior to that and it's also very relatable for modern audience (if they get the idea of course lol).

 

How can you say that Vitiate wanting to kill literally everyone in the galaxy to gain more power isn't Vitiate having gone completely bonkers?

[DarthDymond]

The sort of "power creep" you sometimes see like this, where all of a sudden Palpatine can create hyperspace wormholes and Luke can simply absorb blasterfire from an AT-AT, (thanks Dark Empire,) can definitely be annoying (the reference to Goku/DBZ is spot on). And in a shared universe of writers like SW that can be compounded by inconsistencies between works - and situations where you have more 'grounded' authors like Zahn taking subtle shots at the more "out there" works like Dark Empire.

 

But for me the presence of these over-the-top powers (The Jedi can punt a Super Star Destroyer out of a star system now? Go home, Darksaber, you're drunk), is less of a problem than what we frequently see accompanying with them: a complete lack of compelling characterization.

 

The real problem with Emperor Vitiate isn't that he can suck the life out of the Galaxy, it's that his entire characterization is "this guy is evil, like really, really evil, oh, and powerful, like really, really powerful!"

 

He exists solely to be a "The Threat". As it stands, the Emperor is no more of character than the Asteroid was in Armageddon.

 

It is possible to do that sort of character well: an "it walks like a man, but it is not a man" type of "Other", a being that is compelling because it is so fundamentally unlike us, even unknowable. I think that's why Darth Nihilus actually works, because the writers were deliberately making him a primal force, not a character in the traditional sense, "more presence than flesh" as Visas put it.

 

But 9 times out of 10, we don't get this successfully executed Dr. Manhattan-style glimpse into how such super-human powers would make someone utterly non-human. We get writers relying on the Phenomenal Cosmic Powers to make their antagonist (or in the worst cases, protagonist) interesting to readers/players, so they never bother to make the character interesting in his/her own right.

 

The drive to keep raising the stakes ("this time all life in the Galaxy is at risk!") often leads to really flat characters, and I think that's the bullet they dodged with Traya, but ran straight into with the Emperor.

[Bellatoro]

Well, I think the whole EU is about stretching it too far. Sometimes it´s well done and sometimes it is not. The return of palpatine was the most uncreative plot devise they could come up with (in my humble opinion). It´s like:

 

"Oh, we lost the big, bad guy in the films. What should we do now for the EU?"

"I know, let´s bring him back!"

 

It diminished the prophecy of the chosen one, a crucial part of the movies. Yeah, vader killed the emporer and sacrificed himself, but actually palpatine doesn´t care.

 

 

PS: Kotor 2 is awesome.

[dazednconfuzed]

The whole 'Chosen One' nonsense is just that, crap put into the PT to make people believe Lucas wasn't going nuts when he made them. Mostly thanks to midichlorians and Jar Jar Binks, he well and truly failed to convince anyone of his sanity.

 

And even if Vader is some mysterious 'Chosen One' born of the (non-existent) midichlorians, then he failed. Badly.

 

The prophecy was that the Chosen One would come along and bring balance to the Force. At the end of Return of the Jedi, there is one Jedi, and no Sith. How is that in any way or shape balanced? (Not to mention all of the other Jedi, Dark Jedi, and Sith that were floating around the galaxy still at large.

 

On the subject of OP-ness, I can forgive plot devices for being OP, like Traya, or Nihilius. Nihilius is no longer human. He is basically a vessel for Force energy. Is it any wonder that he can patch himself up after being hit by a lightsaber? Traya was an observer, nothing more. Powerful in her own right, sure, but she didn't have the skill or power to destroy the Force. She saw what happened on Malachor 5 (I think it's Malachor 5 in KotOR 2), when the Exile and VBS* gets all mixed up. Suddenly, no Malachor 5, and major problems with the Force 'field' in the area. So, she comes up with a plan to use those skills herself.

 

*VBS = Very Bad Stuff

 

Vitalite, or whatever the Emperor is called, is an ancient being, who has dedicated his entire being to becoming more and more powerful. At first, this was the Empire and conquering the galaxy, but then he got bored with that when he moved onto more metaphysical pursuits. He has lived for over a thousand years, and spent all of that time delving into the Dark Side of the Force, apart from a brief vacation into Revan's head, which propbably provided him with some Light Side insights. How could a being like possibly come up with a plan to destroy all life in the galaxy in some pursuit of greater power? Of course he could. The point is though, he couldn't just wave a hand and have it done. He needed minions to go out and set things up for him. It took time to prepare.

 

I see him as something like the Tarrasque from old D&D. An unbelievably powerful bad guy, but the point was never to face it directly, but rather to foill its plans with it as the ultimate threat. I think that was the mistake they made for the Jedi Knight.

He should never have gone after the Emperor on Dromund Kaas.

 

 

Vitalite is too powerful a bad guy to be taken down by a single person, even if that person is meant to be the most powerful Force user of our time. Someone compared the Emperor to the asteroid in Armageddon. This is a brilliant comparison, and is exactly what I mean. He shouldn't be personified. He is instead more like a natural disaster.

[Girdeux]

The whole 'Chosen One' nonsense is just that, crap put into the PT to make people believe Lucas wasn't going nuts when he made them. Mostly thanks to midichlorians and Jar Jar Binks, he well and truly failed to convince anyone of his sanity.

 

And even if Vader is some mysterious 'Chosen One' born of the (non-existent) midichlorians, then he failed. Badly.

 

The prophecy was that the Chosen One would come along and bring balance to the Force. At the end of Return of the Jedi, there is one Jedi, and no Sith. How is that in any way or shape balanced? (Not to mention all of the other Jedi, Dark Jedi, and Sith that were floating around the galaxy still at large..

 

If you actually did your research youd know the Chosen one Prophecy was written into the original script of ANH. So no, Lucas didnt make that up for the PT.

 

And again, if you did your research youd know what the balance actually was. It was never a balance of numbers.

 

Time for you to do some more reading of the material.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Girdeux