I am Roleplaying a Developer. Should I get fired or promoted?

[Majspuffen]

There is no good reason for making this thread. It's more like self-therapy, seeing as I can't enjoy my Shadow anymore. I get some sad satisfaction fantasizing how fun the Balance spec could be, and I guess I'd like to hear some feedback on my ideas.

 

So, time for some roleplaying. If I was a developer for a day, these are the changes I would have wrought to Balance!

 

THERAPY SESSIONS:

SESSION 1: Nostalgia trip. Shadow Strike and Sharpened Mind!

SESSION 2: Improving the current gameplay without adding any buttons to our rotation.

 

Color Code:

Silver color indicates no change.

Orange color indicates slight change.

Red Color indicates complete removal of a talent.

Turquoise color indicates a new talent.

 

 

 

SESSION 1

 

 

TIER 1

 

Force Synergy:

Effect: Force Crits increase your melee critical strike chance by 3/6/9% for 10s.

 

Reason: This talent is fine and suits the design of a mixed melee/force combatant.

 

Jedi Resistance:

Effect: Reduces damage taken by 2/4%.

 

Reason: No problem with this talent.

 

Psychokinesis:

Effect: Reduces the cost of Double Strike, Spinning Strike, Clairvoyant Strike by 1/2 and the cost of Project and Whirling Blow by 3/6.

 

Reason: For DPSers, at least, Whirling Blow needs every buff it can get.

 

 

 

TIER 2

 

Pinning Resolve:

Effect: Reduces the cooldown of Force Stun by 5/10 and Force Lift affects 1/2 additional weak/standard enemies.

 

Reason: Not an amazing talent, but I suppose there is some fun cool-factor to being able to Force Lift 3 targets.

 

Drain Thoughts removed.

 

New! Force Backlash:

Effect: When your Mind Crush is cleansed or purged, the target suffers damage equal to 50/100% of the initial damage of Mind Crush. In addition, it increases the duration of Mind Crush by 1/2 seconds.

 

Reason: I don't think Balance Shadows need uncleansable DoTs. Sorcerers cleansing our DoTs in 1.7 was never really an issue because we had enough melee damage to back it up. However, some punishment for reckless cleansing would increase the depth of the game!

 

Also, keeping our Sage brethren in mind, by merging Mind Warp with Force Backlash, Sages can keep Drain Thoughts by simply locating it where Mind Warp used to be. Then nothing will change for max level Sages, and they'll get the same dispel punishment as we do.

 

Focused Insight:

Effect: DoTs that crit restores 0.5/1% HP.

 

Reason: This talent is fine.

 

Force Focus:

Effect: Increases the damage of Force Breach by 5/10/15%

 

Reason: Making this talent a 3 point talent makes up for Force Backlash only being a 2 point talent (seeing as Drain Thoughts was a 3 point talent. Trying to keep the structure of the spec intact!)

 

 

 

TIER 3

 

Force in Balance:

Effect: 30m AoE with an 8m radius that hits 3 targets and restores 1% HP for each target hit. 15s CD. Costs 50 Force.

 

Reason: We never needed a buff to Force in Balance. I know people saw it as justice because there's so many other classes that have AoEs that strikes 5 targets, but Force in Balance is strong enough to use on single target so having it hit two more is just a luxury. If anything, other AoEs should be brought down to the level of Force in Balance *sneers at Force Smash and Corrosive Grenade.*

 

Mental Potency:

Effect: Reduces the force cost of Force in Balance by 10/20.

 

Reason: Should be fine as it is. Maybe buff it to the way it was in 1.7 (12.5/25 I believe it was?)

 

Adjudication:

Increases the Critical Strike damage of Double Strike by 25/50%.

 

Reason: Fine as it is.

 

 

 

TIER 4

 

Containment:

Effect: Reduces the cooldown of Force Lift by 7.5/15s and causes the target to be stunned for 1/2 seconds if Force Lift breaks prematurely.

 

Reason: Force Lift is a difficult CC to use effectively, seeing as it breaks so easily on damage. I could've suggested that it should not break on Balance Dots ala Lethality Agent style... but I don't think that is necessary. The problem with Lethality for Imperial Agents is Corrosive Grenade. They cannot control who gets hit or not, but us Balance Shadows only have single target DoTs. If we DoT a target we intend to Force Lift, then we'll have to owe up to our mistake. The short 2s stun is forgiving enough.

 

Mind Ward:

Effect: Reduces damage taken from DoTs by 7.5/15%.

 

Reason: Bit boring talent, but fine as it is in my opinion.

 

Force strike removed.

 

New! Force Conversion:

Effect: When Force Technique deals damage you gain a buff that reduces the cost and the cast time of your next ability with a cast time by 15/33%. Stacks up to three times. (I.e, 1 talent point = 15/30/45 and 2 talent points = 33/66/100%.)

 

Reason: Force Technique procs can proc once per GCD, so it would take at least 4.5s to get this buff to max. But seeing as the proc rate is 50%, the chance of getting 3 in a row is not that great. This is, in my opinion, a lot more fun than simply having a mere proc every 7.5s. Also, it could be used for utility (instant force lift!!) or mobility (instant Phase Walk!), which would make the spec stand out from the other two quite significantly. Also, it would restrict instant force lift to Force Technique, so we won't see Force Pull + Instant Force Lift Hybrids like we did in 1.7.

(Thanks to Sainik for this idea!)

 

 

 

TIER 5

 

Force Suppression:

Effect: Force in Balance debuffs targets with 10 stacks of Force Suppression. Each stack increases the damage of your next DoT tick by by 20%.

 

Reason: I want more emphasis on melee attacks, so our DoTs have to take a bit of a hit.

 

Rippling Force removed.

 

Restored! Sharpened Mind:

Effect: When a Force Suppression charge is consumed you gain 1/2 Force.

 

Reason: THIS TALENT WAS *********** BRILLIANT AND THERE WAS NO REASON TO REMOVE IT! It added some depth to the class and it was fun to feel the effect of dotting targets you've debuffed. It rewarded awareness, opportunism and creativity. Rippling force is a bore!

 

Mind Warp removed.

 

Restored! Twin Disciplines:

Effect: Using project buffs you with Twin Disciplines that increases your melee damage by 2.5/5% and reduces all damage you take by 2.5/5% for 20s.

 

Reason: Whether this talent will be worth it or not in PvE is now moot becuase it's a nice little buff for PvP! In all honesty though, I can't remember if it increased our melee damage by 5 or 10%... but the numbers doesn't matter much. You can tweak them to gain a satisfying amount of DPS.

 

 

 

TIER 6

 

Mental Scarring:

Effect: Increases the critical damage of Force in Balance and your DoTs by 10/20/30%.

 

Reason: Fine as it is.

 

Psychic Absorption:

Effect: Increases the amount of healing generated by Focused Insight and Force in Balance by 50/100%.

 

Reason: Fine as it is.

 

 

 

TIER 7

 

Crush Spirit removed.

New! Force Strike:

Effect: When a Force Suppression charge is consumed there is a 10/20/30% chance to proc Force Strike that reduces the cost of Shadow Strike by 75%. In addition, Shadow Strike deals 5% extra damage as Force damage per your active dots on the target. Can't occur more than once every 7.5s.

 

Reason: We want to use Shadow Strike. We can't have Infiltration Tactics, fine... so let us have our own version! Also, the extra damage is separate from the proc, meaning that we could use Shadow Strike with its heavy cost as a form of burst. It also synergies well with my suggestion below.

 

Lambaste Removed.

 

New! Battle Meditation:

Effect: Battle Readiness restores 50 force immediately and increases the effect of Focused Insight and Force in Balance by another 2%.

 

Reason: Balance Shadows are squishy and I think they should be, considering the arsenal that they have. However, they could use something to help with survivability. Perhaps the % could be higher than 2%, I don't know... it would bump Force Insight from 2% to 4% which in my head sounds like a rather massive increase. I don't dare to suggest anything higher. Also, for PvE this ability doesn't do much for our DPS. It is an incredibly boring talent for damage. The 50 force allows for some burst and creative playing in both PvE and PvP.

 

Also, there is currently no talent named "Battle Meditation!" What better class to get it than Jedi Shadows?

 

Mental Defense:

Effect: Reduces damage taken while stunned by 15/30%.

 

Reason: I think this talent is great as it is. One of our biggest weaknesses is CC.

 

 

 

TIER 8

 

Sever Force:

Effect: 2s root, dealing x damage over 18s.

 

Reason: Bioware buffed the damage from this ability in 2.0. The damage may have to be reduced due to Shadow Strike returning to our rotation.

 

 

 

My thoughts of what these changes would accomplish:

 

 

• Would make the spec more involved and fun to play.
  Judging by the massive amounts of complaints that have cropped up on these forums since 2.0, I think it's pretty obvious that the majority of players are not happy with the simplification of this spec.

 

 

• Would increase our utility and survivability in PvP.
  I think that with these changes, we would find a nice middle ground between Kinetic Combat and Infiltration.
  In terms of Utility; Kinetic Combat > Balance > Infiltration.
  In terms of Survivability; Kinetic Combat > Infiltration > Balance
  In terms of Single Target Pressure: Infiltration > Balance > Kinetic Combat.
  In terms of AoE Pressure: Balance > Kinetic Combat > Infiltration.
   
  Perhaps it's not as simple as that, but you get the gist. Currently, I dare say Balance Shadows have worse Single Target pressure than Kinetic Combat Shadows.

 

 

• Would give us meaningful damage in PvP, not just AoE fluff.
  Currently, Balance Shadow can wrack up quite the numbers on the Scoreboard... but the problem is, that damage doesn't mean anything! It is damage that is easily healed. In 2.0, Bioware made it far too easy for some specs to do AoE fluff.

 

 

• Would cause the spec to integrate better with the low tier talents of the other two trees (infiltration in particular).
  In order to get Shadowy Veil (30% extra armor) as Balance Shadow, you have to pretty much waste 3 talent points into useless talents. With Twin Disciplines restored, there is actually a reason for speccing Upheaval. As such, I don't think the Infiltration Tree has to be changed at all.
   
  The Technique Mastery talent in the tanking tree should be changed however. Instead of buffing the critical damage of our Force Technique proc it should just give us a passive boost to crit, like it used to before 2.0.

 

 

• Would make our Technique proc thoroughly unique.
  Currently our Technique proc is just a lame version of Shadow Technique's proc. I for one hate all the buffs Bioware has given to it seeing as it is passive and beyond our control, and even with the buffs it still deals very dissatisfying damage. With the suggestion of Force Conversion, this passive proc would actually provide something to the gameplay. It would reward awareness and we'd actually be very happy to see it proc, even if it does **** damage... because the damage won't be the point.

 

 

 

ENDWORDS:

I am constantly trying to tell myself to give up on this spec, but I am seemingly unable to. I've played MMORPGs for 10 years now and the gameplay of the pre-2.0 Balance Shadow has been one of the most satisfying I've experienced. In fact, I'd probably rate it as number 2, of all classes/specs I've played. Number 1 would be Holy Priest in TBC, for anyone that is interested to know.

 

I don't play my Shadow anymore, but I am thinking about it a lot. To me, what Bioware did in 2.0 was a bloody crime. By determination or madness, I once sought to find a single complaint about Balance prior to 2.0 and I found nothing. I made a post about it and linked what I found, and the only posts I found were posts that praised the spec for being so fun and fluid to play. For PvP, it was viewed as an underperforming spec, but I'd call it "feasible." It may not have been the best option for RWZs, but bringing one didn't dramatically set your team back. It all depended on the player.

 

Anyways. That's my therapy-session done for today. If you read it all, then thank you for the interest!

Edited November 25, 2013 by Majspuffen

[PapaRodin]

There are some very good points and others I don't agree with as much.

 

I will start with what I liked the most, namely Force Conversion. Brilliant idea, but with a very few little weakness:

 

You are either forced to hardcast Mindcrush or have to wait for some very long GCDs to apply Mind Crush per instant. Also, there is no longer an reduced Cooldown on it which might also hurt.

 

My Solution:

 

Make a talent (or bake it in somewhere) that Lightning Charge Hits also reduce the Cooldown on Mind Crush by 1-1,5 Seconds and another one (or bake this one together somewhere) that lets you use Mind Crush instantly for, lets say, 6 seconds after you left stealth.

 

 

Now something I don't agree with.

 

Lambaste.

 

With your addition to Psychokinesis and the introduction of Force Conversion, Lambaste becomes/became a potent skill for the ability to make up to five lightning charge hits, thus enabling to use a Mind Crush more often and/or do something else. You shouldn't get rid of Force Burns either imo. I like the skill and it is a nice bonus. People tend to undervalue this talent on a regular basis and it just became much better with some/most of your changes.

 

On Shadow Strike, I don't think that it should be used in here. I would rather see Project see some usage in here. Twin Diciplines is an okay start, but you should give it the propertys of your Shadow Strike.

 

Adding in both Maul/Shadow Strike and Projekt just creates unnecessary ability bloat and if I had to choose between them, I would rather take Project.

Edited November 21, 2013 by PapaRodin

[PapaRodin]

Ideas of mine based on ideas of yours.

 

Not finetuned like yours, but I like the generel idea.

 

Tier 1

 

Psychokinesis:

Effect: Reduces the cost of Double Strike, Spinning Strike, Clairvoyant Strike by 1/2 and the cost of Project and Whirling Blow by 3/6.

 

Tier 4

 

Force Conversion (Instead of Force Strike):

Effect: When Force Technique deals damage the cooldown on Mind Crush is reduced by 0,75/1,5 seconds and you gain a buff that reduces the cost and the cast time of your next ability with a cast time by 15/33%. Stacks up to three times. (I.e, 1 talent point = 15/30/45 and 2 talent points = 33/66/100%.)

 

Mind Ward

Reduces the damage taken by all periodic effects by 7,5/15% and the damage taken while stunned by 15/30%.

 

Tier 5

 

Force Suppression

Force in Balance now suppresses resistance to the force, increasing the amount of damage the targets suffer from your next 15 periodic damaging abilities by 20%. When a Force Suppression Charge is consumed, you regain 1 Force.

 

Rippling Force

Addition: Damage dealt by Rippling Force restores 1% of your total health.

 

Mind Wrap

In Addition, using project buffs you with mind wrap which increases your damage by 2.5/5% and reduces all damage you take by 2.5/5% for 9s.

 

Tier 6

 

Psychic Absorption

Increases the amount of healing generated by Force in Balance, Focused Insight and Rippling Force by 50/100% and makes your Damage over Time effects uncleansable.

 

Tier 7

 

Crush Spirit

Also increases Damage dealt by Projekt by 7,5/15% on targets below 30% of max health.

 

Tier 8

 

Hidden Agenda

 

Exiting Stealth gives you a 50/100 Chance to gain the Hidden Agenda buff, which makes the next Mind Crush instant and cost no force. Also, when you use Project on a target which suffers from your Force Techniques Breach Effect, it has a 50/100% Chance to automaticly trigger your Force Technique on a seperate rate limit and will make the next tick from your Force Techniques Breach Effect critically hit.

Edited November 21, 2013 by PapaRodin

[Majspuffen]

I will start with what I liked the most, namely Force Conversion. Brilliant idea, but with a very few little weakness:

 

You are either forced to hardcast Mindcrush or have to wait for some very long GCDs to apply Mind Crush per instant. Also, there is no longer an reduced Cooldown on it which might also hurt.

 

That is actually intentional. I very much like the concept of CC or damage. Force Lift and Phasewalk both have cooldowns, so you'll be using Mind Crush mostly, but it does become a choice.

 

I think of Shadow Priests in WoW. They have something called "Shadow Orbs" that stacks to 3, and depending on spec it will take you ~25s to get 3 stacks. Each stack of Shadow Orbs improves the effectiveness of either Devouring Plague (damage!) or Psychic Horror (CC!). The latter can either be a 1s CC, a 2s CC or a 3s CC, but it's up to you to decide when you want to detonate it. It's a very nice design in my opinion.

 

[edit] I am also curious as to why people want to keep Rippling Force? I find it to be a very uninspiring and boring talent. What is the point of a 1s DoT? How does it affect our gameplay?

 

On Shadow Strike, I don't think that it should be used in here. I would rather see Project see some usage in here. Twin Diciplines is an okay start, but you should give it the propertys of your Shadow Strike.

 

Adding in both Maul/Shadow Strike and Projekt just creates unnecessary ability bloat and if I had to choose between them, I would rather take Project.

 

Currently, both Kinetic Combat and Infiltration Shadows spam Project on CD, pretty much. Balance Shadows will be using it more sparingly, seeing as it has such a heavy force cost. If we do not have Shadow Strike in our rotation, we become largely melee casters. The design goal of the spec should be to use a synergy of melee and force attacks.

 

Crush Spirit

Also increases Damage dealt by Projekt by 7,5/15% on targets below 30% of max health.

 

This doesn't add to the gameplay. This is a static talent. It may be somewhat useful for PvE, but we already have Spinning Strike for targets below 30% hp. We don't need more. For PvP, these talents are largely useless because once a target gets below 30% hp, chances are they are not going to be alive for much longer. If they survive due to healing, then they'll leave the 30% mark quite fast.

 

So, for the greater good, this talent simply has to go.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Majspuffen

[Aelanis]

I actually quite like the ideas. Sure, there probably needs to be a little bit of tweaking to make sure nothing gets unbalanced, but it's not like Balance doesn't need a bit of a buff anyway. I also think there might be some merit to de-emphasizing the importance of perfectly maintaining DoTs, which, while it required great skill and focus to do so, I feel makes it boring and annoying. Both other specs feel like they weave force and melee attacks in together fairly nicely, as opposed to the current Balance and I feel like most of your suggestions would be taking the spec to a better place.

[PapaRodin]

On Project and Shadow Strike.

 

We can agree on saying that Madness needs another button to add to the rotation to keep it interesting outside of applying dots. I do think that adding more than one Attack to that would be just promote button bloating, so I think that focussing on one of the two is better.

 

So I ask myself which one is better. Since Balance Shadows lack the suprise effect, cc, slows and mobility that the other two trees offer, taking Shadow Strike seemed suboptimal to me since you need all of the above to consistently pull off that Shadow Strike. It is possible, sure, but the way you implemented it is much weaker than the old way to use it, which is fine, but not very much worth the hassle from an PVP perspective whereas Project offers you a bigger range while not suffering from an positional requirement.

 

On a sidenote, I do not think that the Shadow Strike Talent in the Kinetic Tree was needed either but that is another topic.

 

 

In regards of your force conversion comparison to the Shadow Priest from World of Warcraft

 

I understand what you are saying and I agree on the part regarding the CC component, but that part is already dealt with by the CD of Whirlwind itself. My proposal was simply about being able to use Mind crush more often than the 15 Second Cooldown would allow like your proposed talent changes would do. Haven't played WOW for a while, but I think the DOT you are talking about has no Cooldown either while its damage is based on the number of Orbs used wheras the CC had a small CD, I think it were 20 seconds? Not sure anymore, but in any way, my thoughts went into a similiar direction.

 

On Rippling Force, I like it since it fits the theme, is support to the otherwise completly unsynergetic passive effect of Lightning Charge and it is the only thing right now that makes Lambaste appear worthwhile. I take it one step further, as seen in my ideas, which I have partly based on yours in that I want to further build up on that concept which is why I want to keep it.

 

On topic on that Execute Talent, I like having it and including Project was just a part of me giving it a fixed plays in our priority.

[sainik]

I like the ideas in this thread. I like Majspuffen's idea of making battle readiness an important defensive cooldown for balance shadows.

 

I also agree with PapaRodin that with Force conversion, Lambaste (with some tweaks) could be a good way to build stacks quickly, albeit at a higher force cost.

 

As to ability bloat, I don't think I have a problem with more abilities personally. Having said that, I realise that it is a concern for many people, and the main reason for oversimplification of the spec in 2.0, so its important not to trivialize it. So I see two possible solutions:

 

1. Choice between shadow strike and project: I know PapaRodin and many others prefer project over shadow strike, while me and Majspuffen and some others prefer to have both, in particular shadow strike .

 

I am a big believer in giving options to players on how to play a given spec. There might be a rotation that achieves optimal DPS in PVE, but there should be slight variants that might be suboptimal, but encourage alternate playstyles. In particular, all specs should be able to use all core class abilities. I know this is real hard to achieve, but that is what I would like in an ideal specialization. This was possible earlier when infiltration tactics was at the bottom of the tree, so all specs had access to shadow strike if required.

 

The problem is that balance shadows cannot even use shadow strike-a core class ability. Project can still be used, and is valuable burst in pvp when slowed or immobilized at 10m, in particular with force potency and upheaval. But there is no way shadow strike is suitable in any scenario I can think of. This is the problem I have - there should be a way for balance shadows to use shadow strike. So if it comes to a choice between SS and project for talent points, I would pick SS, not because I don't want project, but because I can already use project. I agree that SS is harder to pull off, but that's the point, we want to pull it off since we trained for it

 

2. Have a proc that reduces force cost of both Shadow strike and project, and is consumed by either ? Maybe make twin disciplines trigger from both SS and project, and increase all damage by 3% instead ? I don't know, just throwing around ideas.

[PapaRodin]

I do not have a problem with Ability Bloat if everything serves a purpose but adding in Shadow Strike into Madness would be just that, adding in Shadow Strike for the sake of having it without any real further use.

 

Take a look at Kinetics, they got their Shadow Strike Proc slapped on them just for the sake of nostalgia while it doesn't really manage anything. Its damage is, at least after my experience, subpar while it also suffers from having an decreased chance to proc particle acceleration since it only strikes once compared to the two procchances granted by double strike.

 

If you want to add in Shadow Strike into Madness, you would have to make it appear good under the following circumstances:

 

It should do comparable or better damage than the other abilitys to compete with Force in Balancem Double Strike or Project.

The Force Cost has to be in check to make it worthwhile.

It has to have synergize with the skill tree as such.

 

Checking it now, we see that Maul suffers from doing relativly poor damage, having a way to steep force cost and doesn't synergize at all/as well with the tree like it could.

 

They can't flatout buff the damage since that would make Infiltration even more terrible in PVP. Instead, they could make the damage buff to maul tree exclusive, but what would be the point of the seperation in the first place, then?

 

The Force Cost could be adjusted. Making it an freecast proc could be worthwhile to the overall force management, but then the damage and the synergize would still need fixing.

 

Talking about Synergize, Sshadow Strike doesn't have any synergize at all atm. It does nothing to/with the dots, nor does it anything else for the spec which another ability isn't doing already.

 

 

In summary, in order to make use of Shadow Strike for Balance again, all of the above needs fixing. I am still not a fan of the idea, but what could be done about it:

 

Giving something a chance to proc a freecast Shadow Strike.

Making Maul automaticly trigger Force Technique.

 

MAYBE adding in Shadow Strike into Adjudications Crit Damage Bonus.

 

 

My problems with that is that I personally don't want to watch out for another proc besides Force Strike and that I don't think Shadow Strike is really worth it.

 

And saying that it is a key ability is a very blurry thing in my opinion. Especially when talking about the shared trees, which are usually focussed on the shared abilitys, not the AC specific ones.

[Majspuffen]

If you read my suggestion again you'll see that it actually fixes all those things.

 

75% lower cost, making it really cheap. So it helps with resource management.

 

Does 5% more damage per active DoT on the target. That way it synergies with our DoTs. If we have all 3 DoTs present on the target, it will do 15% more damage. And as a niche, that extra damage will be yellow damage, not white!

 

 

I am of the opinion that if I learn something new from my class trainer, I want a reason to use it. If I learn something new only to have it sit in my list of abilities, I might as well not have learned it at all in the first place. When I progress in a game I want to use more keys, not less. Like Sainik says, if I had to choose between a Shadow Strike proc and Project, I'd choose Shadow Strike as well because Project is useful, even when not tied to a proc. Situationally useful, but useful all the same. Shadow Strike without a proc is useless.

 

Same goes with Telekinetic Throw. While it'd be cool to have more reason to use it, it is still useful due to its range. But adding project, telekinetic throw and shadow strike, that would be bloating. Using project once per 20s and Shadow Strike on proc won't make the gameplay bloaty. By keeping track of how many Force Conversion stacks we have we can safely know whether to wait with Shadow Strike or simply use it on a target that has 2 DoTs on it.

 

I just want depth. Depth, synergy, thinking.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Majspuffen

[sainik]

Talking about Synergize, Sshadow Strike doesn't have any synergize at all atm. It does nothing to/with the dots, nor does it anything else for the spec which another ability isn't doing already.

 

Exactly the point. It needs some synergy, which I admit, might not be an easy thing to do keeping optimal PVE rotations etc in mind.

 

As to the argument on core AC abilities and their involvement in a shared tree, have a look at some points made in this post in another thread (if you have the patience that is )

 

 

My subscription runs out in a few days, and I will be returning once I am satisfied with the changes to the balance tree. Towards that end, here is my final (compiled) feedback.

 

I have played all the 8 advanced classes to atleast lvl 50 over the past 2 years, so I hope to present an unbiased assessment as to why I feel so disinterested in this tree. Also I am primarily a pvp player, so all the comments are geared towards that aspect of the game.

 

1. Boredom: First and foremost (to avoid any 'l2p' responses), I am fairly good at playing the balance shadow on live. Dishing out huge amounts of damage is easy, and 1v1 wins are not that rare either. The problem is this: after playing a couple of warzones, I would just feel like switching to something else. The main reason is below.

 

2. Feel of the tree: At lvl 10, players have a choice to go with the sage AC or shadow AC. Players pick shadow because they prefer either (a) stealth (b) melee or © tanking. The issue I have is that neither of these three have any synergy with the balance tree. Looking at the (similarly designed) lethatlity tree for operatives, there is a +2 stealth boost and a proc for Kolto Infusion (heal) high up in the tree (not to mention the TA mechanism), which makes the lethality operative play and feel much more like an operative: and gives it a distinct feel compared to a lethality sniper. Here are some more points regarding this (as this is my biggest gripe):

 

- Balance is the only tree out of 24 which has no buffs to any AC abilities whatsoever (excepting force breach). To avoid ambiguity - here is what I consider an AC ability: Any ability that is trained/improved in the AC tab at the class trainer. For eg, project would be a shadow AC ability. I purposefully ignored Lambaste(whirling blow), since the buff it provides it is highly situational for pvp, and does not deserve a place in the penultimate tier (well it does not even deserve to be a low hanging fruit, imo). I did not count Force breach, since for balance it just feels like a copy of sage's weaken mind (i.e. it has identical mechanics).

 

- Not only this, balance shadows cannot even reasonably use a signature class ability (shadow strike). For e.g. lethality operatives could still use backstab, and can even trait to get a +16% crit chance for it. I am not implying that this is the best way to play lethality: but someone interested in that kind of playstyle atleast has an option to trait into it.

 

- Even more, the talent points that might be useful to balance shadows like Shadowy veil and arguably even expertise are located in the 2nd tier of the other two trees, which makes it difficult to efficiently spend the remaining 10 points.

 

- Earlier, talent points like twin disciplines (even though their usefulness was debatable) gave the tree an authentic feel. There was no reason to remove this talent point. It lasted for 20 seconds, and most players were smart enough not to use project every CD because of the talent point. Some would not trait/use it, but that should be ok- it is all about giving more options.

 

 

3. Visually unappealing: Holding a double bladed lightsaber and not doing much with it is lame. Just see some video footage of balance shadows in action - the animations are minimalistic, and simply lacking aesthetically. In fact, Balance is the only tree with only one move (barring execute) on their main weapon (main weapon being the one that corresponds to the lvl 10 advanced ability: eg flamethrower and knife for powertechs and operatives respectively ).

 

4. Other PVP issues:

 

- Balance is the only melee tree out of 15 without a permanent snare. After 2.0 its a pain to deal with operatives without a reliable snare. All other melee trees have this. Granted, balance shadows have a root, but so do combat sentinels, and that tree has much better mobility and DR which makes up for the fact that their root has only 10m range.

 

- Balance is the only melee tree out of 15 without two disables (stun/mez). Well, even the other two trees for shadow AC have two disables (LS + Stun /Spinning Kick + Stun). Force lift was essential for balance shadow's survivability. If you were worried about escape, a reduction in range or an increase in cooldown would have worked.

 

- The melee tree out of 15 with the least DR. Goes without saying. You might say there are more ranged options to make up for it, but so do operatives and powertechs (more so for operatives). Balance shadows have heals which add up nicely (and definitely not insignificant) but they are uncontrollable. Personally I would change focussed insight to apply a stackable bubble (similar to trauma probe). The rate limit and max stacks could be adjusted. This will make sure there are some heals even when hit at full health, i.e. give slightly more control on survivability.

 

 

5. Change in skill cap: For someone who likes to juggle with a lot of abilities, I liked balance shadows pre 2.0. Granted, the huge list of abilities might have been exhausting to some, but it was also very exciting to many. Please have a look at your metrics, and see if player interest in the spec has increased after your changes in 2.0. Even if so, might it have been at the expense of past players ? It simply does not make sense that you would change the exact thing that made the spec interesting to many.

 

6. Lack of developer engagement: Lot of similar posts have been made, but there has been no acknowledgement whatsoever. Even for someone who does not know a thing about game design, I understand that class design must be very daunting: Which is more the reason for the developers to interact with players, otherwise it gives the feeling that feedback is simply falling on deaf ears. There have been developer responses about other questions to trees on 2.0 (see http://dulfy.net/2013/02/25/swtor-patch-2-0-developer-responses/). All balance shadows got was a poorly written developer diary (http://www.swtor.com/info/news/blog/20130419-0) which used words like 'clunky' to describe a playstyle players liked for months. That diary gives the impression that not having 'low hanging fruit' is more important than giving options/choices to players on how they want to play. I am sure that is not the case, but the developer diary is all we have to go by.

 

Anyway, long rant. For what its worth, I hope my feedback is useful.

 

 

TLDR; Shared trees need to bring in more from the core class compared to pure AC trees, agreed, but they need to also have some core AC components as well, so that the gameplay of the two shared trees is similar, but at the same time has a distinct feel.

Edited November 21, 2013 by sainik

[Sabatiel]

 

This doesn't add to the gameplay. This is a static talent. It may be somewhat useful for PvE, but we already have Spinning Strike for targets below 30% hp. We don't need more. For PvP, these talents are largely useless because once a target gets below 30% hp, chances are they are not going to be alive for much longer. If they survive due to healing, then they'll leave the 30% mark quite fast.

 

So, for the greater good, this talent simply has to go.

 

i think it has its uses.. especially against Op healers when they're trying to escape the inevitable;)

i really like that talent and i'd like it to remain.

and no, Spinning Strike is not enough for targets below 30% hp:cool:

[PapaRodin]

If you read my suggestion again you'll see that it actually fixes all those things.

 

75% lower cost, making it really cheap. So it helps with resource management.

 

Does 5% more damage per active DoT on the target. That way it synergies with our DoTs. If we have all 3 DoTs present on the target, it will do 15% more damage. And as a niche, that extra damage will be yellow damage, not white!

 

 

I am of the opinion that if I learn something new from my class trainer, I want a reason to use it. If I learn something new only to have it sit in my list of abilities, I might as well not have learned it at all in the first place. When I progress in a game I want to use more keys, not less. Like Sainik says, if I had to choose between a Shadow Strike proc and Project, I'd choose Shadow Strike as well because Project is useful, even when not tied to a proc. Situationally useful, but useful all the same. Shadow Strike without a proc is useless.

 

Same goes with Telekinetic Throw. While it'd be cool to have more reason to use it, it is still useful due to its range. But adding project, telekinetic throw and shadow strike, that would be bloating. Using project once per 20s and Shadow Strike on proc won't make the gameplay bloaty. By keeping track of how many Force Conversion stacks we have we can safely know whether to wait with Shadow Strike or simply use it on a target that has 2 DoTs on it.

 

I just want depth. Depth, synergy, thinking.

 

I did read your suggestion. My point was that I just think that trying to add Shadow Strike into the regular rotation in addition to/with Project is just to much for to little and only really promotes ability bloating. One can argue that talking about bloat is an subjective topic as you made the example of having telekinetic throw on top of project and shadow strike would be bloated to you while their may be others who would love that idea so that is a touchy subject.

 

Using Project every 20 seconds means using an expensive (39 Force) Ability that has no synergy at all at this point instead of something else which might have been useful in that situation only to keep an okayish buff up. If you want to play it ideal now, you want to not cap that 20 second mark while keeping an eye on your force so that you can immediatly use Project at the right time. On Top of that, you want players to look out for that maul buff to pop up only so they can deal marginally more damage compared to something else, and lets be real, with a spec having to juggle three dots at a time, you can't expect them to give Balance anything that hits for much more than doublestrike or FiB, if anthing.

 

Add on top of that that you want to watch/spread your dots, want to keep FIB on Cooldown, have to watch your Force Management, watch out for Force Strike Procs while trying to survive because everybody and their mother trys to kill you while you try to keep up with your enemys because you can't have the ranged class easymode.

 

 

In summary, all you did was adding more stuff to watch/look out for/think about which would be fine if Balance would be a sole PVE Spec or we had some sort of Power Auras for this game which we don't have. You also need to consider that most players are dumb, and I am not talking only about the PVPers here. Having a fun and engaging class is one thing, but you want the class to be overly complicated and that is something even more skilled players don't want to deal with, especially if the payoff isn't worth the effort which it isn't in this case.

 

 

So while we can agree that the Balance Rotation needs alittle bit of complexity and since I can sympatize with your love for shadow strike even though I don't share it, you should try to keep Project out instead and focus more on Shadow Strike if you so really much want it in.

 

Also, in regards to that "I want to use everything my trainer has for me" part. I can understand it, but in the case of a class like the Jedi Consular, you should realize that that is just wishful thinking.

 

If they really would try to make that rule life, they would have plenty of fun finding ways to incorporate Double Slash into the sages Moveset. On a side note, I always wondered why they haven't made Telekinetics get any kind of saber throw attack but that is a different topic again.

 

You get my point.

[PapaRodin]

The other thing you need to consider is biowares minimalism.

 

Looking at the past, they seemingly hate to do balance/class changes and if they do, they tend to be minimalistic at the very best. It is something which I like to forget for myself quite often (because it is a stupid policy honestly) but we should have that mindset while thinking about how to change what when talking about thise.

[sainik]

you should try to keep Project out instead and focus more on Shadow Strike if you so really much want it in.

 

This I would be fine with. As I said before, project is already useful in pvp, and upheaval is something players can spec into if required. So additional talent points for project in balance tree are probably needless. Putting some talent points on shadow strike in would make the tree a lot more shadow-like imo.

 

As for executes, over time I have come to realise that sub 30% talents are useful, even in pvp. But I do not want a 15% dot damage buff, its just boring. How about an increase to critical chance of spinning strike ? (like the ones vigilance guards have before 2.0, I miss it). Or maybe increase melee damage by 15/20 % on targets on sub 30 % health ?

 

Yeah I also think their policy on class changes needs a rethink. The changes to balance shadow in 2.0 were definitely not minimalistic (as they seem to have thought, considering their developer update on consular for 2.0) . There is no point in sticking to that policy if you only enforce it partially.

[Quazi-moto]

As posted in the balance thread

I had posted this in the 2.5 changes thread.

 

As you would need less use out of mind crush, I would also like to see Force strike change to give sever force a chance to tick twice.

 

I would like to see sever force moved down and replace a lower tier skill. Psychic Absorption could be replaced.

In it's place as the capstone, a new skill, Force Resonance. This skill takes current dot's on target and creates a resonating force dot that mirrors the sum of the individual dot. Lasts for 6s. 45s cd. This gives some bursty feel that doesn't make balance bursty.

 

Benefits:

a) mind crush is now applied via whirling blow

b) sever force has more RNG to do extra damage

c) FIB is critical to maintain mind crush (5 limits the extent of maintaining mind crush on large groups)

d) New mechanic of some quick bonus damage for the work done to put those dots up in the first place.

 

I still see balance as a dot spec. Like all the previous ideas posted above though. There is hope.

[PapaRodin]

In Terms of our Execute, our talent is already a bit better than others since we have an execute skill, our dots profit from the execute phase (which seems to be a theme for the chared skilltrees, looking at lethality and firebug), but on top of that, FiB also profits from that bonus, which can make the difference. I am much satisfied with that.

 

I am also not very sure how people think the shared Talent Trees are handled exactly. Honestly spoken, I am not very sure about that myself quite often. I try to consider the Tree being neither one of the advanced classes but the core class itself, manifested, with some added "bonuses" from the advanced classes if you get what I mean.

 

As such, I think of my Sith Assassin which is skilled in Madness not as an Sith Assassin but as an Sith Inquisitor and as such, it only appears much more natural to me to have his ability be/feel much more Force centered than the other trees and if you compare them, you will notice that Balance/Madness are indeed much more force centric than the others.

 

Like Focus doesn't care about what you were or how many Lightsworns you wield, you are a Jedi Knight anyway.

 

Like Fire Bug doesn't care about if you use one or two blasters, you set things on fire (although they did a stupid naming here, "Firebug" should have been the name for the Powertech exclusive DPS Tree) and like

 

Lethality doesn't care about if you are a backstaber or a sharpshooter, you poison stuff to death.

 

 

But with a personal touch, as such:

 

 

I think that Project is much more fitting for the Madness/Balance talent tree, outside of being much more practical in usage and having some support actually already baked into the tree, thus catering to Biowares lazyass design policy.

[sainik]

Like Focus doesn't care about what you were or how many Lightsworns you wield, you are a Jedi Knight anyway.

 

Like Fire Bug doesn't care about if you use one or two blasters, you set things on fire (although they did a stupid naming here, "Firebug" should have been the name for the Powertech exclusive DPS Tree) and like

 

Lethality doesn't care about if you are a backstaber or a sharpshooter, you poison stuff to death.

 

I agree, basic idea of the shared trees is the same. But how they achieve their goals can be very different. Focus sentinel and Focus guardian have the same concept: aoe burst. But how they go about doing it is different in subtle ways. Focus sentinels get buffs to GBtF, a core sentinel ability. Similarly, the centering mechanism is crucial for burst phases of focus sentinels, as it is with the other sentinel trees. There are other minor buffs, like the one to rebuke and twin saber throw, not to mention that other fantastic sentinel abilities like camouflauge and pacify still remain usable by focus sentinels. Similary for the lethality tree, poison damage and cull are the main mechanisms, but operatives could pull of 4 culls in a row, and that is serious burst. They also get the ability to use a heal on proc (heal being a core operative ability).

 

So balance shadow, like balance sage is a dot spec, and I am sure there will not be anyone contradicting that. But the abilities that aid in achieving dot damage should come from the AC abilities. I posted a lot of times that shadow strike could apply a juyo-zen style critical chance buff on dots, for eg, or that whirling blow should allow spreading of dots from one target to the other, etc. These are by no means the only solutions, of course.

[PapaRodin]

The Sentinel uses Mini Damage Cool Down A, the Juggernaut uses Mini Damage Cooldown B, there isn't much difference.

 

You can't compare an ability like pacify to shadow strike.

 

Lethality doesn't have a way to AOE spread their Dot enhancing Debuff, apart from their way to do that doing almost unnoticable damage. Apart from that, they suffer from ramp even more than we do since they not only have to apply 2 dots + the debuff but also have to build up/manage their energy and their tactical advantage all the way by not dying because they are nearly as squishy as we are.

 

And that healing proc is a well meant joke to me. Outside of being tied to an ability that you use when you are more busy with getting away from/to something, yeah, the roll, it also has a stupid proc chance which, and that I can promise, will always only show up when you don't need it. Trust me when I say this, this particular talent is the epitome of bad design choice/philosophie.

 

 

Even though it is hard comparing a chared tree of a class which has two very different working Advanced classes like the Councellor, lets take a look at the sage.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but the only Sage only abilitys that are directly related to the Sage in the balance tree should be, If I remember right, should be Disturbance and Weaken Mind. You can exclude Weaken Mind from that list since it is interchangeable with Force Techniques Breach effect and Disturbance is just a proc to further have something to push while waiting instead of having to use that Telekinetic Throw even further.

 

 

Nobody is complaining about that

[PapaRodin]

After thinking for a while about it, I think this is how it should be done:

 

Psychokinesis

Also reduces the force cost of Whirling Blow by 3/6.

 

Minor Ward

Now also reduces the damage received while stunned by 15/30%.

 

Force Strike

Direct Damage Attacks have a 60% chance to finish the cooldown on Mind Crush and Project and make it cost 100% less Force. In Addition, Project spreads your force techniques breach effect on every not controlled enemy within 8 meters around the target.

 

Rippling Force

Damage dealt by Rippling Force also restores 0,5/1% of your total health.

 

Psychic Absorption

Includes Rippling Forces Heal Effect.

 

Mind Warp

Increases the Duration of Mind Crush by 1/2 Seconds and reduces its Cast Time by 1/2 Seconds.

 

Mental Defense replaced by Sharp Mind

Damage dealt by Shock has a 50/100% Chance to increase your critical strike chance on damage over time effects by 20% for the next 3 seconds and reduce the damage you receive by 10%.

Edited November 22, 2013 by PapaRodin

[Majspuffen]

Lots of stuff to reply on!

 

I get what you're saying about ability bloat and like I said previously, if I had to choose between a proc for Shadow Strike or Project, I'd take Shadow Strike. However, I don't think that the Balance gameplay was that complicated pre 2.0. I played lots of "underperforming" classes before 2.0 due to the challenge. I didn't like eaz-mode overpowered specs (PT PT, rage jugg/mara, Operative healer... though I did play Operative healer for some time, because it was the first spec I ever played in this game, and yes I did hate the unnecessary buffs in 1.2, but I digress.)

 

So the classes I had at level 50 were: A Balance Shadow, a Lethality Operative, a Pyrotech Mercenary and a Vengeance Juggernaut. These were all satisfying in their own ways but the Balance Shadow was my favourite. If I were to list them by difficulty, top being hardest, I'd list them as this:

 

1. Pyrotech Mercenary
   
2. Vengeance Juggernaut
   
3. Lethality Operative
   
4. Balance Shadow
   

 

A Balance Shadow had a total of 9 buttons in their rotation:

Force Breach | Sever Force | Mind Crush | Force in Balance

Double Strike | Shadow Strike | Project (largely a choice) | Saber Strike | Spinning Strike (below 30%)

 

I rarely used Whirling Blow. I used it as a tool to unstealth enemy assassins that just vanished, and I sometimes used it while soloing weaker mobs. But I don't think I've ever really used it for a damaging purpose.

 

Anyways, one thing to keep in mind with Balance Shadows is that they don't really have many cooldowns to keep track of. Force in Balance got off CD about the same time as our DoTs ran out, and once you play the spec long enough you could hear when mind crush or shadow strike procced, making it easy to react to.

 

A Vengeance Juggernaut had 9 buttons in their rotation.

Sundering Strike | Impale | Shatter | Ravage | Force Scream

Vicious Strike | Saber Strike | Vicious Throw (below 30%) | Vanish+Hidden Strike (at least in pve)

 

However, I found Vengeance Juggernauts a lot harder to play because you often had to back up low proc rates by using CDs correctly. CDs like Enrage and Force Grip. There were also some attacks that you used, situational attacks, such as retaliation and force smash. I also found it more difficult to keep several CDs in my head, rather than procs... and it's funny, Bioware changed Vengeance Juggernauts gameplay quite a lot, and they made it more complex with 2.0.

 

A Lethality Operative has 8 buttons to their rotation.

Corrosive Dart | Corrosive Grenade | Shiv | Cull

Backstab | Explosive Grenade | Weakening Blast | Rifle Shot

 

Lethality Operatives weren't really viable in PvE before 2.0 because managing energy over a longer period of time just... wasn't possible. In 2.0 they made the spec somewhat easier but I'd still say it is more difficult than pre 2.0 Balance Shadows. Operatives have to be very careful not to overexert their resource. They have tons of CDs to juggle and you want to use these CDs as soon as possible in order to get them off cooldown faster, but your energy won't allow to use it all. It becomes even more difficult if you involve Orbital Strike into your normal rotation, as there are few "golden moments" where you can use it. Plus, Operatives also has the whole Tactical Advantage mechanic.

 

And unlike Whirling Blow, I've found that Carbine Blast is actually a useful AoE but it requires positioning, and is a rather expensive attack. Also, for PvP, Operatives defensive CDs are noway near as good as Balance Shadows.

 

Pyrotech Mercenaries have 6 buttons to their rotation.

Incendiary Missile | Thermal Detonator | Railshot | Power shot

Unload | Rapid Shots

 

Mercenaries have the least buttons to their normal single target rotation, but they have a lot of situational abilities as well with rather hefty costs. Death From Above, Fusion Missile, Explosive Dart... The reason I found Mercenary Pyrotechs to be the hardest out of these 4 classes is because you have to be constantly aware of your resource. It was extremely easy to overheat, and still is to this day I think... and that is fine, I actually love that aspect of the mercenary class.

 

 

To summary, I liked all these classes, but the main reason I preferred Balance Shadow was because while the gameplay was complex, it wasn't too punishing. And Balance Shadows had a complete package. They were squishy, but had ridiculously strong CDs for PvP and was a beast in 1v1s. They also had lots of utility.

 

So, if they were to implement the changes I've suggested, I don't think that Balance Shadows would be overly difficult to play. I'm not sure which class I rank the hardest to play these days... I've put my Juggernaut on the shelf, but I am playing Pyrotech Mercenary and Lethality Operative. Lethality Operative is definitely the easiest of the three, but I can't say if I think Pyrotech mercenary is still harder than Vengeance Juggernaut or not. I guess I'll have to experiment by bringing my Jugg up to 55.

 

[edit] Interesting to note; out of all classes, the one class that had the most keybinds was my Operative, followed by Juggernaut, followed by Mercenary and then Shadow. Mercs and Shadows have about the same I think, but Operatives and Juggernauts definitely had more.

 

 

TL;DR

I made a list where I compared pre-2.0 Balance Shadow with pre-2.0 Vengeance Juggernauts, Pyrotech Mercenaries and Lethality Operatives. The verdict was that, out of those 4 specs, Balance Shadows were the easiest to play.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Majspuffen

[PapaRodin]

I will keep this post rather short since I am about to get me something to eat.

 

Your list actually shows me how subjective points of views can be because I didn't find any of the specs you stated as actually hard to play.

 

Vengeance Vigilance was very fluent and easy to play in my opinion although I admit that I never had the ability to use Vanish and Hidden Strike. If I remember correctly, all you had to do was use sundering Strike on Cooldown and fill the two GCDs in between with your three your big attacks (which tended to align well since all of them had a 9 Second CD if I remember correctly + the 6 Second Dispatch in the execute phase) and/or Master Strike, if needed/able to.

 

Mercenary Pyro wasn't hard to play either, the only thing that appeared hard and/or were unfun about him was the part were you needed to wait/hope for a proc (which I really don't like in general, I hate randomness in my gameplay all across the board) and the part were you were complety immobile which was unnerfing especially if you were used to play that spec as a powertech before.

 

Lethality Operative is a difficult topic. The Spec isn't hard to play at all but it is just that bad designed and clunky in my opinion that it takes away all the fun for me. That you are squishy as hell is just a cherry on top, but it really isn't hard to play.

 

Comparing Balance how it was back then to what it is now, outside of numbers, it isn't much different in my opinion. Outside of loosing project which was at that time a very forced move anyway imo, they lost Shadow Strike which was tied to a stupid and easy to access talent and for that design fail alone I am more than okay with losing it.

Edited November 22, 2013 by PapaRodin

[Majspuffen]

I will keep this post rather short since I am about to get me something to eat.

 

Your list actually shows me how subjective points of views can be because I didn't find any of the specs you stated as actually hard to play.

 

Very true.

 

Comparing Balance how it was back then to what it is now, outside of numbers, it isn't much different in my opinion. Outside of loosing project which was at that time a very forced move anyway imo, they lost Shadow Strike which was tied to a stupid and easy to access talent and for that design fail alone I am more than okay with losing it.

 

Actually, the design fail is even greater today, in my opinion. Imagine if you are new to the game and reach level 10 with a Jedi Consular. You specialize in the Shadow AC... the first attack you get is Shadow Strike, an attack that remains completely useless until level 25, but only if you spec into infiltration. When I first played this game I levelled my Shadow as a tank, but I put points into Infiltration Tactics first anyways. One point into Infiltration Tactics made the ability useful.

 

[edit] And I disagree. The gameplay is very different, everything from force management to ability usage. Right now the emphasis on dots is so strong that you have to apply them flawlessly in order to maximize DPS and that is not fun at all. Shadow Strike allowed for some breathing room, because it was such a top priority ability.

 

Also, when it comes to multi-dotting... previously, in PvP, if I had struck 3 targets with Force in Balance and had DoTs running on them, I'd revel in a moment of excess force regen. It was fun to feel the effect of playing properly, it synergized so damn good. These days if I hit 5 targets with Force in Balance and I dot them all, I will be force-starved. Yay saber strike? No synergy at all.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Majspuffen

[PapaRodin]

I forgot that the selfheal was also stronger since you had more crit naturally back then if I remember correctly. Another point worth mentioning.

 

In terms of class design, talent tree localization and ability granting per level up, SWTOR is full of fails in general, there is nothing new to it.

 

The worst case for that is the Imperial Agent/Smuggler in my opinion.

 

There was literally no reason for Bioware to give them crouch/cover and Snipe before level 10, especially considering that it became nearly useless for Scoundrels and Operatives (or stupid in some PVP Situations to the point were Bioware actively makes it useless and says: "Yo, yo weren't supposed to use that anymore in the first place!"

 

For leveling purposes, Overload Shot from start would have done the purpose until level 10 at which you would choose your specialisation anyway.

 

 

 

God forbid people ask for reasons that Lethality Operatives actually have to use Snipe in there rotation....

[Majspuffen]

And just a short argument as to why execute talents are bad:

 

The more powerful we are at the 30% mark, the less powerful we'll be at the 30-100% mark. In pve, having lower damage during 30-100% and higher at 30% might be okay, but for PvP you rarely attack something at -30% hp for long. Operative healers might be the only class that stays alive under the 30% mark due to retarded Surgical Probe spam.

 

Also, another argument as to why we do not need stronger DoTs at the 30% mark:

We have Spinning Strike. The argument that lethality ops and pyrotech mercs has a below 30% hp talent is moot, because they don't have an execute ability.

[Majspuffen]

There was literally no reason for Bioware to give them crouch/cover and Snipe before level 10, especially considering that it became nearly useless for Scoundrels and Operatives (or stupid in some PVP Situations to the point were Bioware actively makes it useless and says: "Yo, yo weren't supposed to use that anymore in the first place!"

 

You have to take what Bioware says with a grain of salt because as of late they are full of bullcrap.

 

Operatives having Crouch was a FULLY INTENDED GAME DESIGN AS QUOTED BY THEMSELVES: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1503885#post1503885

 

God forbid people ask for reasons that Lethality Operatives actually have to use Snipe in there rotation....

 

Even if snipe is not used in their rotation, it is still a useful ability for them. It is something you can use at range, and something is better than nothing. I've even made the suggestion that Snipe should generate TA, that way Lethality Operatives can keep their TA stacks up while not being able to fight in melee range. It is fun when abilities are useful to you, no matter how significant. It is not fun when abilities are completely worthless (unless they're replaced by stronger abilities that does the same thing).