Darth Malgus vs Darth Sideous

[Wolfninjajedi]

Luke according to the ROTJ novelization deflected some of Sidious' lighting. That is canon, that's an objective fact. If you don't like that then too bad, but don't impose your subjective opinions (i.e. "that's stupid") on others and pass it off as legitimate argument. Again, why should I not accept it if it wasn't shown in the movies? Because you say so?

 

You do need evidence to say this, because the EU has rules which we all must abide by if we want to have any kind of organised debate on issues such as this. And I've just provided a quote stating what your saying simply isn't true. We are dealing with Film + EU continuity here (look it up) where these things are relevant.

 

Regarding Yoda and Windu, your right the outcome of those duels is personal opinion. However the notion that Windu and Sidious stalemated and the notion that Windu would have been overwhelmed by Sidious lightining are canonical facts according to the ROTS novelization and therefore very relevant - especially as they do not contradict but in fact support the depiction of events in the movie itself.

 

P.S. See #62 for evidence of Windu and Sidious being at an impasse. Here is evidence of Sidious overpowering him:

 

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny."

 

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

 

Plus the fact...you know, Mace was in pain if you watch the scene.

 

"No...he is the traitor! Ahhhh..."

 

"Don't...listen...to him Anakin! Ahhh!"

 

/other little screams n grunts as Palps speaks.

 

You can also see it in his expression, looked to me like he was barely holding on there.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Girdeux]

 

Regarding Yoda and Windu, your right the outcome of those duels is personal opinion. However the notion that Windu and Sidious stalemated and the notion that Windu would have been overwhelmed by Sidious lightining are canonical facts according to the ROTS novelization and therefore very relevant - especially as they do not contradict but in fact support the depiction of events in the movie itself.

 

P.S. See #62 for evidence of Windu and Sidious being at an impasse. Here is evidence of Sidious overpowering him:

 

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny."

 

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

 

The novel version of the windu vs sidious fight wasnt updated when Lucas changed the script. It says in the novel Windu cut Sidious lightsaber in half, which is impossible because it states outright that his blade is impervious to lightsaber damage due to phrikalloy.

 

Anakin wasnt watching the entire fight in the movies, he did in the novel. He saw kit fisto struck down and didnt bother to help.

 

Mace kicked it in the movie version and disarmed him. When there is contradictions between the novels and films. The films trump the novel.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Girdeux

[Wolfninjajedi]

The novel version of the windu vs sidious fight wasnt updated when Lucas changed the script. It says in the novel Windu cut Sidious lightsaber in half, which is impossible because it states outright that his blade is impervious to lightsaber damage due to phrikalloy.

 

Mace kicked it in the movie version and disarmed him. When there is contradictions between the novels and films. The films trump the novel.

 

Those are minor details, doesn't really matter. Luke also pulled his saber from Vader's grasp in the ROTJ novel(you actually see it in Vader's hand in the scene) and yet in the movie he didn't, he just had it.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

The novel version of the windu vs sidious fight wasnt updated when Lucas changed the script. It says in the novel Windu cut Sidious lightsaber in half, which is impossible because it states outright that his blade is impervious to lightsaber damage due to phrikalloy.

 

Mace kicked it in the movie version and disarmed him. When there is contradictions between the novels and films. The films trump the novel.

So we invalidate the entire novel (and why not throw in the whole EU) because of a few contradictions?

 

Please point to the contradiction between novel and movie in terms of the above topic.

 

Hint: there isn't one.

[Girdeux]

So we invalidate the entire novel (and why not throw in the whole EU) because of a few contradictions?

 

Please point to the contradiction between novel and movie in terms of the above topic.

 

Hint: there isn't one.

 

Did i say we invalidate the entire novel? No. Anakin wasnt watching the entire fight in the movies, he did in the novel. He saw kit fisto struck down and didnt bother to help.

 

 

"As he arrived, he witnessed the epic battle between Kit Fisto, Mace Windu, and Sidious by hovering his speeder outside Palpatine's office window. He could not yet determine who the combatants were, seeing only their lightsabers. Kit Fisto was decapitated shortly after Skywalker caught sight of the duel. When his green blade flickered out, Skywalker smashed the window to Palpatine's private office and leaped through. There, he found the dead body of Kolar and the heads of Saesee Tiin and Kit Fisto (who was also only slashed in the movie). Anakin was able to watch the epic lightsaber duel between Windu and Sidious for some time, instead of arriving just in time when the Jedi knocked down Sidious in the movie."

 

Theres a reason why the scene in the movies is almost completely different from the novel, the script was changed. When the novel completely contradicts the scene IN the movies, Movies > Novel.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Girdeux

[Beniboybling]

Did i say we invalidate the entire novel? No. Anakin wasnt watching the entire fight in the movies, he did in the novel. He saw kit fisto struck down and didnt bother to help.

 

 

"As he arrived, he witnessed the epic battle between Kit Fisto, Mace Windu, and Sidious by hovering his speeder outside Palpatine's office window. He could not yet determine who the combatants were, seeing only their lightsabers. Kit Fisto was decapitated shortly after Skywalker caught sight of the duel. When his green blade flickered out, Skywalker smashed the window to Palpatine's private office and leaped through. There, he found the dead body of Kolar and the heads of Saesee Tiin and Kit Fisto (who was also only slashed in the movie). Anakin was able to watch the epic lightsaber duel between Windu and Sidious for some time, instead of arriving just in time when the Jedi knocked down Sidious in the movie."

 

Theres a reason why the scene in the movies is almost completely different from the novel, the script was changed. When the novel completely contradicts the scene IN the movies, Movies > Novel.

So what's your point? Because mine still stands regardless of this.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Did i say we invalidate the entire novel? No. Anakin wasnt watching the entire fight in the movies, he did in the novel. He saw kit fisto struck down and didnt bother to help.

 

 

"As he arrived, he witnessed the epic battle between Kit Fisto, Mace Windu, and Sidious by hovering his speeder outside Palpatine's office window. He could not yet determine who the combatants were, seeing only their lightsabers. Kit Fisto was decapitated shortly after Skywalker caught sight of the duel. When his green blade flickered out, Skywalker smashed the window to Palpatine's private office and leaped through. There, he found the dead body of Kolar and the heads of Saesee Tiin and Kit Fisto (who was also only slashed in the movie). Anakin was able to watch the epic lightsaber duel between Windu and Sidious for some time, instead of arriving just in time when the Jedi knocked down Sidious in the movie."

 

Theres a reason why the scene in the movies is almost completely different from the novel, the script was changed. When the novel completely contradicts the scene IN the movies, Movies > Novel.

 

Where did you get that? Because this is what the novel says...

 

His repulsorlifts howled as he heeled the speeder up onto its side, skidding through wind-shear turbulence to bring it to a bobbing halt outside the window of Palpatine's private office. A blast of lightning hit the spire of 500 Republica, only a kilometer away, and its white burst flared off the window, flash-blinding him; he blinked furiously, slapping at his eyes in frustration. The colorless glare inside his eyes faded slowly, bringing into focus a jumble of bodies on the floor of Palpatine's private office. Bodies in Jedi robes.

 

On Palpatine's desk lay the head of Kit Fisto, faceup, scalp-tentacles unbound in a squid-tangle across the ebonite. His lidless eyes stared blindly at the ceiling. Anakin remembered him in the arena at Geonosis, effortlessly carving his way through wave after wave of combat droids, on his lips a gently humorous smile as though the horrific battle were only some friendly jest. His severed head wore that same smile. Maybe he thought death was funny, too.

 

Anakin's own blade sang blue as it slashed through the window and he dived through the gap. He rolled to his feet among a litter of bodies and sprinted through a shattered door along the small private corridor and through a doorway that flashed and flared with energy-scatter. Anakin skidded to a stop.

 

Within the public office of the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, a last Jedi Master battled alone, blade-to-blade, against a living shadow.

 

Anakin arrived seeing Mace and Palps fight, not Fisto.

 

Regardless it's a moot point. The scenes may differ slightly but the main thing still applies.

 

The other 3 Masters were cut down, Mace was the last one. Then Sidious did the whole Force Lighting thing.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Girdeux]

So what's your point? Because mine still stands regardless of this.

 

Heres what you state:

"Regarding Yoda and Windu, your right the outcome of those duels is personal opinion. However the notion that Windu and Sidious stalemated and the notion that Windu would have been overwhelmed by Sidious lightining are canonical facts according to the ROTS novelization and therefore very relevant - especially as they do not contradict but in fact support the depiction of events in the movie itself."

 

Lucas says that Mace legitimately wins the duel, and further clarifies in the Making of ROTS that Sidious was pretty close to having his face melted off which is the reason he had to stop with the force lightning. The novels pretty much make it out to be like Sidous beats Windu whenever he wants, this isnt the case. Like I said, the novels contradict the final cut of the film.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Heres what you state:

"Regarding Yoda and Windu, your right the outcome of those duels is personal opinion. However the notion that Windu and Sidious stalemated and the notion that Windu would have been overwhelmed by Sidious lightining are canonical facts according to the ROTS novelization and therefore very relevant - especially as they do not contradict but in fact support the depiction of events in the movie itself."

 

Lucas says that Mace legitimately wins the duel, and further clarifies in the Making of ROTS that Sidious was pretty close to having his face melted off which is the reason he had to stop with the force lightning. The novels pretty much make it out to be like Sidous beats Windu whenever he wants, this isnt the case. Like I said, the novels contradict the final cut of the film.

 

There is no contradiction. Mace did beat Sidious in the novel by making Sidious reduce his speed so he could then disarm and have him on the ledge of the office.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Girdeux]

There is no contradiction. Mace did beat Sidious in the novel by making Sidious reduce his speed so he could then disarm and have him on the ledge of the office.

 

I dont ever remember it ever stating that Sidious and Mace stalemated, did you?

[Wolfninjajedi]

I dont ever remember it ever stating that Sidious and Mace stalemated, did you?

 

From the looks of it in the movie....yes it did look that way, it wasn't up until they got towards the window(like in the novel) where Mace got the advantage.

[Girdeux]

From the looks of it in the movie....yes it did look that way, it wasn't up until they got towards the window(like in the novel) where Mace got the advantage.

 

It didnt look like that to me, even Lucas says Windu was overpowering Sidious from the beginning of lightsaber duel.

[Wolfninjajedi]

It didnt look like that to me, even Lucas says Windu was overpowering Sidious from the beginning of lightsaber duel.

 

Ok I take it you are looking at this quote?

 

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

 

--Taken from the Revenge of the Sith commentary

 

Right? Ok but here is the thing, Lucas gave no details or anything...just saying that he overpowered Sidious which it seems to me, it fits right well with the window scene

[Girdeux]

Right? Ok but here is the thing, Lucas gave no details or anything...just saying that he overpowered Sidious which it seems to me, it fits right well with the window scene

 

Im pretty sure the word "overpower" is a pretty big detail. Not anywhere did they stalemate as the other guy claimed. Thats the whole point of what im saying.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Im pretty sure the word "overpower" is a pretty big detail. Not anywhere did they stalemate as the other guy claimed. Thats the whole point of what im saying.

 

The word overpowered is describing what seems to be the window bit. Nowhere does Lucas say that "throughout the fight Mace overpowered Sidious" or anything of the sort, he gave no detail in that comment about the fight. He was giving a description of the window sequence.

 

Windu did overpower Sidious at the window, which then led into the whole Force Lighting and yada yada yada. Which is what Lucas is describing.

 

He doesn't give any detail as to the why/how it happened, which thus the novel gives the more detail and also goes over the fight.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Girdeux]

The word overpowered is describing what seems to be the window bit. Nowhere does Lucas say that "throughout the fight Mace overpowered Sidious" or anything of the sort, he gave no detail in that comment about the fight. He was giving a description of the window sequence.

 

Windu did overpower Sidious at the window, which then led into the whole Force Lighting and yada yada yada. Which is what Lucas is describing.

 

He doesn't give any detail as to the why/how it happened, which thus the novel gives the more detail and also goes over the fight.

 

Im assuming you have never actually watched the ROTS DVD with the commentary on because he said Windu Overpowered Sidious in the beginning of the lightsaber duel, not at the end.

 

Please actually watch the scene with the commentary on before making that sort of claim.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Girdeux

[Beniboybling]

Heres what you state:

"Regarding Yoda and Windu, your right the outcome of those duels is personal opinion. However the notion that Windu and Sidious stalemated and the notion that Windu would have been overwhelmed by Sidious lightining are canonical facts according to the ROTS novelization and therefore very relevant - especially as they do not contradict but in fact support the depiction of events in the movie itself."

 

Lucas says that Mace legitimately wins the duel, and further clarifies in the Making of ROTS that Sidious was pretty close to having his face melted off which is the reason he had to stop with the force lightning. The novels pretty much make it out to be like Sidous beats Windu whenever he wants, this isnt the case. Like I said, the novels contradict the final cut of the film.

Lucas said Windu won the lightsaber duel, Lucas makes no comment about Windu being able to overcome Sidious' lightning (in fact there are several comments made by him that support the novel) and his comment does not invalidate the fact that they were - prior to the duel moving to the window - at an impasse. Because the duel only changed when Sidious had to focus some of his energy on sticking himself to the window ledge, allowing Windu to defeat him.

 

Again, no contradiction. Though the part I referred to as personal opinion was whether or not Sidious let Windu push himself towards the window and therefore let Windu win - which can be reconciled with Lucas' comment.

 

But that's a discussion I'm not prepared to have right now.

[Beniboybling]

Im assuming you have never actually watched the ROTS DVD with the commentary on because he said Windu Overpowered Sidious in the beginning of the lightsaber duel, not at the end.

 

Please actually watch the scene with the commentary on before making that sort of claim.

I've watched the commentary and I agree with Wolf.

[Girdeux]

I've watched the commentary and I agree with Wolf.

 

Ive watched the commentary and I disagree.

[khayyinx]

Girdeux, that's how they are. They ask for evidence, and even when you show some they just ignore it or distort it completely to fit they arguments.

 

Girdeux presented evidence that novels can many times CHANGE what we see in the movies, or simply ADD significat information that CHANGES everything, like the one with luke and the lightning. The novels always tend to make luke and sidious all powerfull, as you guys do too.

 

After this last page i just give up arguing with beni, wolf an aurbere, who think they are the ultimate star wars authority

[Beniboybling]

Girdeux, that's how they are. They ask for evidence, and even when you show some they just ignore it or distort it completely to fit they arguments.

 

Girdeux presented evidence that novels can many times CHANGE what we see in the movies, or simply ADD significat information that CHANGES everything, like the one with luke and the lightning. The novels always tend to make luke and sidious all powerfull, as you guys do too.

 

After this last page i just give up arguing with beni, wolf an aurbere, who think they are the ultimate star wars authority

I never rejected any of that evidence, but I dispute the fact that these particular instances are problematic. Why we receive such negativity for this I don't know, far better that we attempt to reconcile the novels and the movies, rather brand the novels irrelevant, inferior and 'stupid'. And that's goes for the whole EU. Sorry if you don't like that.

 

I mean really, why this division? Why must we 'choose a side' and hate on the EU or hate on the movies? Jeez people Luke deflected lightning in the novel, its not all that bad, he's capable of it, he has the potential of the Chosen One. Get over it. There is no need to rage and stomp our feet like children then insult those who don't do the same.

 

Are we the ultimate authority on Star Wars? No. Do we correct others then they start making up rules? Yes.

[LadyKulvax]

I never rejected any of that evidence, but I dispute the fact that these particular instances are problematic. Why we receive such negativity for this I don't know, far better that we attempt to reconcile the novels and the movies, rather brand the novels irrelevant, inferior and 'stupid'. And that's goes for the whole EU. Sorry if you don't like that.

 

I mean really, why this division? Why must we 'choose a side' and hate on the EU or hate on the movies? Jeez people Luke deflected lightning in the novel, its not all that bad, he's capable of it, he has the potential of the Chosen One. Get over it. There is no need to rage and stomp our feet like children then insult those who don't do the same.

 

Are we the ultimate authority on Star Wars? No. Do we correct others then they start making up rules? Yes.

 

I could not agree more with this, I have attempted my own reconciliation with the Revan novel by theory crafting reasons for inconsistencies, though when things like the topic being discussed is brought up, if there is a conclusion that can be made that is clearly not contradictory to blatant accepted canon despite the fact it may seem a contradiction between works, then it is THE only possible version of events, even if the canon doesn't outright state it.

 

Simply put, in debates as large as these, we can't simply allow the canon to hold our hand, we have to think for ourselves as well.

[Beniboybling]

Simply put, in debates as large as these, we can't simply allow the canon to hold our hand, we have to think for ourselves as well.

Indeed, we also have to remember that canon is all ways evolving. Commentary made by Lucas several years ago does not necessarily accurately depict current canon, for example Lucas' comments about disfigurement (though I do not recall them) have been extrapolated into a fiction work which depicts how Sidious used a masking technique to hide his features and the lightning (or exertion) simply dispelled this mask.

[SitHamster]

Sidious destroyed 3 Jedi Masters in a move or two, and kicked the *** of Maul and Opress who where more Sith Warriors.

So Sidious wins, 1st and only round

[fdbgjfdhjgkjdhsg]

Sidious destroyed 3 Jedi Masters in a move or two, and kicked the *** of Maul and Opress who where more Sith Warriors.

So Sidious wins, 1st and only round

Yea, I would have to agree. Sidious was able to beat the crap out of Opress and Maul while most of the duel between them he was just holding them off for fun. And if Malgus is the best of the best then why did he get his butt kicked over Ilum?