The ranked system is self-destructive; a new PvP system is needed.

[Ren_simp]

this is how you fix ranked

 

solo queue and reg wz reward ZERO ranked comms. a ranked solo queue is dumb when you're praying to the rng gods

 

no dailies or weeklies for regs which reward ranked comms. no converting wz comms into ranked

 

ranked comms only come from team arena

 

people are only doing solo queue now until they get all the gear faster. then they will be back in regs to barely break 300k or whatever it is 99% of you do

 

that is the only way to increase participation without cross server, but it makes too much sense so bioware won't do it.

 

 

This is the only way and should of been how it was implemented in the first place

Solo ranked is a joke doesn't matter how well you play your subjected to teaming with players that put no effort into any aspect yesterday I lost over 100rating purely from teammates joining worst had 24k hp

Still had some battle master gear no stim and died in the first 2seconds of combat.

[Aristore]

Arenas, solo ranked ques, and season 1 have not changed the self-destructive pattern of the current ranked PvP system. Players que for ranked, they get beat by top teams consistently, they get discouraged and stop queing. Then only the top 3 or 4 teams keep on queing and fight each other for a while. Eventually the #3 or #4 teams get sick of losing and getting beat by the same top 2 teams, and they stop queing too. And ranked died down to 2 or 3 teams participating on an occasional basis.

 

Same destructive pattern exist for solo ranked. People que for ranked, start losing due to bad teammates, afkers, quiters, or whatever other factors, then they stop queing. And solo ranked que died down to a few players queing, which would also eventually die down to nothing when the losers amongst these few get sick of losing and stop queing.

 

This destructive pattern was seen in the old 8v8 warzone ranked days, and is still apparent in the current ranked arena system. So I am proposing a new PvP system to have more people to participate, since it is obvious that we are not getting cross server que; that is already a dead horse.

 

Here is the new system I am proposing:

1. One que only, no separating regular que or ranked que. All games in this one que are rated.

2. All games reward one type of warzone comms. In addition, only victors of a game are rewarded with 1 victor comm.

3. PvP gear still have 2 tiers. First tier requires only warzone comm. Second tier requires the first tier, warzone comm, and victor comm. For example, tier 1 weapon requires 1500 WZ comm; tier 2 weapon requires tier 1 weapon, 3500 comm, and 25 victor comm. This means the player has to win at least 25 games to get the tier 2 weapon.

4. Victor comms are only rewarded in 55 pvp.

 

The advantages of this system are:

1. Everyone who PvPs is queing in one que, which allows a large pool to draw from.

2. Everyone is rated. Better players will be more likely to match against better players, which scale competition on both sides better.

3. Everyone can access tier 1 pvp gear easily. But accessing tier 2 pvp gear will require WINNING. Because no winning means no victors comm. And to win, people will be encouraged to improve their skills, to play in pre-mades; and they will be discouraged to give up early or leave warzones.

4. This system also prevents people from farming gear easily. A person can farm all day, but he is not going anywhere if he is not winning to get victor comms.

5. To encourage people to keep on PvPing despite of losing. One PvP daily quest will reward 1 victor comm, and the pvp weekly will reward 3 victor comms.

6. Victor comms are only rewarded in 55 pvp. Players can’t farm lowbies for easy access to tier 2 pvp gear.

 

Please comment or propose your own changes to the current PvP system. And please don’t beat any dead horses like cross-server que.

 

Honestly how can you believe these would amount to positive changes in the game. Do you get frustrated when queuing solo for regular warzones expecting it to be pug vs. pug but instead find yourself queuing against a 4 man premade? Now image what your experience would be like if you forced the best players in the game into that setting. The skill gap between the top teams and the average players in regular warzones is so phenomenally high that you drive sooooo many decent players away from pvp all together as to make it dead completely.

 

Ranked is there for a damn good reason. Because the competition is high. I will definitely admit that there need to be some massive changes in place to avoid lack of competition, but that can be done without eliminating the last adn only competitive pvp aspect this game has to offer.

 

All they need in order to improve competition in ranked is to improve the elo system. Right now it seems the "queue by elo rating" is failing miserably. Maybe they should implement a system where if the average of your teams group elo rating is more than 400 over any of the other teams queuing, you simply don't get queued. Or create active pvp "tiers", and you can only queue against teams who also reside within your tier. I understand that screws over top level teams, but they should only be playing top level teams anyways. This would allow losers to play losers, winners to play winner and leave everyone generally happy.

[ThorgrimLutgen]

.........................All they need in order to improve competition in ranked is to improve the elo system. Right now it seems the "queue by elo rating" is failing miserably. Maybe they should implement a system where if the average of your teams group elo rating is more than 400 over any of the other teams queuing, you simply don't get queued. Or create active pvp "tiers", and you can only queue against teams who also reside within your tier. I understand that screws over top level teams, but they should only be playing top level teams anyways. This would allow losers to play losers, winners to play winner and leave everyone generally happy.

 

In theory this makes a lot of sense. Without cross server, which we know we are never getting it will simply amplify the queue issue.

 

I actually think even with ELO in place, all teams should be able to play all other teams once, in any one daily period. Ranking is not about pandering to people and allowing them an easier fight to help their rating up, if they are crap, they are crap, it is about all people playing at least once, against everyone else, how else do you get a true reflection of the "skill" level? I use the term skill loosely since this is a video game and there is no skill to sitting in front of a computer really.

[valeita]

The only thing i agree on is that every match is rated... with maybe 2 different tiers, one for normals with its own rewards and one for arenas. But not sure, just an idea.

[BennyKrak]

Pretty sure what this game needs is more variety for PvP, ranked especially.

 

The problem with 8v8 Ranked was that "it was always too hard for guilds to get enough people, the right composition and to queue at the same time as other guilds".

 

The problem with 4v4 Ranked is that it doesn't incorporate any of the "objective-based gameplay" that is found in 8v8 reg warzones.

 

The problem with both Ranked game types is as the OP said, fewer and fewer groups queue due to always versing the same competition (can get boring), or due to losing too many times and losing interest.

 

I personally never understood the reasoning BioWare had for removing 8v8 Ranked Warzones. It gave a more competitively gameplay style for guilds that were able to put the teams together for it. What we've seen since the removal of 8v8 Ranked is a dramatic drop in the number of competitive PvP guild groups, since they had to cut players in order to form their optimal 4-man team for Ranked Arenas.

 

Ranked PvP in this game would probably thrive a little more if the following things happened;

 

(1) Re-adding 8v8 Ranked Warzones back into the mix, as a separate queue to 8v8 Regular Warzones and 4v4 Ranked Arenas.

(2) Allowing groups to queue for multiple PvP gametypes at any one time.

Eg. Being able to queue for Regular Warzones (if in an 8 man ops group, each 4 man group is queued separately), 4v4 Ranked Arenas (again, both 4 man groups are queued separately), and 8v8 Ranked at the same time).

(3) Addition of more Daily and Weekly PvP Quests, which provide varying rewards depending on the game types played. Eg;

- Daily/Weekly Missions specifically for 8v8 Ranked PvP, which provide only ranked commendations upon completion.

- Daily/Weekly Missions specifically for 4v4 Ranked PvP, which provide only ranked commendations upon completion.

- Weekly Missions for all warzone / arena game types that require the player to complete multiple criteria for completion.

An example of this would be:

Complete 15 PvP matches where you reach over 8000 objective points.

Complete 15 PvP matches where you reach over 4000 attacker points.

Complete 15 PvP matches where you reach over 4000 defender points.

Complete 15 PvP matches where you reach over 50 kills.

Complete 15 PvP matches where you reach over 10 killing blows.

-------------------> This type of weekly will make players focus on more than one aspect of gameplay in order to complete it. Everyone knows that most of the time in Regular Warzones, no one wants to defend the off-node. Well, it's an easy way to complete your 15 matches with defender points if you do now!

NOTE: Killing blows might not be a good criteria, since healers and tanks would also have to complete this quest, but you get the general idea.

 

 

If 8v8 Ranked was brought back, we might see some of the old competitive PvP guilds & players return, especially since a new warzone is coming out soon as well. Besides, smaller PvP guilds will still be able to compete in 4v4 Ranked Arenas, whilst the larger ones will be able to battle it out in 8v8 Ranked Warzones.

That is just my personal opinion though, obviously.

Edited March 19, 2014 by BennyKrak

[AlrikFassbauer]

I personally never understood the reasoning BioWare had for removing 8v8 Ranked Warzones.

 

I didn't either. The only thing I can remember from the Cantina Event in Cologne was that part of the then dying of war zones consisted in the fact that it more and more became dfifficult to get 8 people together for 1 group.

 

They created Arenas with the premise in mind (or at least so I remember it) that 4v4 teams would be far easier to get - due to their small size. And thus, more people would be able to participate in group plays.

 

What they could have done, I think, is, to open the old objective-based 8v8 WZs for 4v4 groups.

 

But I fear that the old WZs in 4v4 mode would be too much ... well, just imagine how it would work. Too big, for example, although THAT would be something I'd really like : Huge fluctuation ...

 

I think they should really trey this out for a few weeks : The old, objective-based 8v8 WZs open fgor 4v4 teams ... LOL

 

I actually think even with ELO in place, all teams should be able to play all other teams once, in any one daily period. Ranking is not about pandering to people and allowing them an easier fight to help their rating up, if they are crap, they are crap, it is about all people playing at least once, against everyone else, how else do you get a true reflection of the "skill" level? I use the term skill loosely since this is a video game and there is no skill to sitting in front of a computer really.

 

Any true matchmaking system would make people feel having a real competition.

 

But so far no ideas have been given how this would work. Not even the number-crunchers here came up with working theory of how really excellent matchmaking should work.

Edited March 19, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[foxmob]

This is the only way and should of been how it was implemented in the first place

Solo ranked is a joke doesn't matter how well you play your subjected to teaming with players that put no effort into any aspect yesterday I lost over 100rating purely from teammates joining worst had 24k hp

Still had some battle master gear no stim and died in the first 2seconds of combat.

 

one of the major complaints (good) premades have in retort to "separate queue" threads is that part of being good is playing smart. that means teaming up with reliable players to limit the derp factor.

 

well -- you're not gonna like this, but... -- solo queue is fine. you need to recognize when super-derps are in the queue and not queue. there's absolutely no excuse for losing 100 rating in a short period of time -- I would say ever. that's the equivalent of seeing an atomic mushroom cloud and flying TOWARD it. better yet, it's like being a movie fan and BUYING a ticket to a micahel bay movie. seriously, what were you thinking?

 

yes. there are trolls purposely screwing up solo queues. yes. there are hybrids purposely messing with the matchmaking system in hopes of a better rating. I really don't understand how/why you think these problems are any different from the crap ppl pulled on Ilum or win trading in 8v8. there will always be these issues, and (for some reason, it seems to me) they will be more prevalent in pvp and more prevalent on pvp servers.

 

as for your particular issue I rank these in order of appropriateness for you. I think the last one is ultimately the best route and doesn't throw the baby out with the bath water:

1. solo ranked isn't for you if you can't handle random teammates. don't queue solo ranked. if everyone else (for the most part) chooses solo ranked over grp ranked, then that's a you problem. get 8+ friends and make play dates or go to BK where they'll make it your way. #yolo solo is the minor leagues. you don't wanna grp with minor leaguers, step up to grp. grp is empty? that should speak for itself. what can I say? it's a casual game. deal with it.
   
2. there's no way to separate dc's from quitters, so punitive policies for one will always snare the other. I don't have a huge problem with this, personally. I'd say 15 or 30 mins is a reasonable lockout (per toon -- most ppl who throw games probably aren't willing to do it on all their toons).
   
3. better matchmaking according to rank and rankings assigned after 30 games. avoid playing unranked players with ranked players. unfortunately, this is probably not possible due to lack of player population and x-server queues. c'est la vie.
   
4. minimum gear requirement for all rated formats of 2018 expertise. 2018 expertise is reachable with partisan gear. Partisan gear is outdated and will soon be outdated twofold. yet it's still full expertise. I also have full expertise on an old toon wearing a mix of ewh/wh/conq. gear. so full expertise is very reasonable, both for alts and returning players. although my preference is to eliminate bolster altogether and keep the 2018 exp requirement (this would still allow for partisan and better into matches)
   

 

edit: I cannot speak for all servers, but looking over the leaderboard for all classes on my server, I'd say solo is pretty accurate and the 1500 threshhold was a good move. in terms of the percent of toons with ratings, 1500 turns out to be exactly what (musco?) said they were aiming for. getting there is too easy after < 15 games, however. and, of course, certain classes and specs are at a pretty hopeless disadvantage. I don't think there's a dps op/scoun over 1500, for example.

Edited March 19, 2014 by foxmob

[sanchito]

In theory this makes a lot of sense. Without cross server, which we know we are never getting it will simply amplify the queue issue.

 

I actually think even with ELO in place, all teams should be able to play all other teams once, in any one daily period. Ranking is not about pandering to people and allowing them an easier fight to help their rating up, if they are crap, they are crap, it is about all people playing at least once, against everyone else, how else do you get a true reflection of the "skill" level? I use the term skill loosely since this is a video game and there is no skill to sitting in front of a computer really.

 

Uh actually the whole elo thing is exactly about allowing people to build up their rank. the idea is that, in your words, crap teams battle it out, and the ones that are less crap get their rating up and get to play other teams that are less crap, and again the better ones move up and get to play similar teams and so on. By the time a team gets to play your non crap team, they, too, are not crap anymore and should have a reasonable chance to actually beat you.

 

If you say you'd rather have a tournament system or whatever instead of a elo based ladder that's cool but this is the whole purpose of an elo rating system.

[orryko]

this is an old thread, thanks rejin lol

 

the only way to increase participation is to force it upon the playerbase. if the best gear can only be obtained by doing team ranked 4s, then guess what the majority of players will figure out how to participate in?

 

99% of players will take the path of least resistance, whether they just farm regs all day until they have obroan, or they do solo queue all day til they have obroan.

 

this game's pvp received its final nail in the coffin today anyway. with the housing and rp xpac coming out at the same time as wildstar, coupled with the fact they have no idea how or what to balance, the majority of good pvpers will be gone. it's not that people leave swtor for other games, it's that every time a new game comes out (because of the lack of direction and proper decision making), people leave and never come back.

[Jadescythe]

this is an old thread, thanks rejin lol

 

the only way to increase participation is to force it upon the playerbase. if the best gear can only be obtained by doing team ranked 4s, then guess what the majority of players will figure out how to participate in?

 

99% of players will take the path of least resistance, whether they just farm regs all day until they have obroan, or they do solo queue all day til they have obroan.

 

this game's pvp received its final nail in the coffin today anyway. with the housing and rp xpac coming out at the same time as wildstar, coupled with the fact they have no idea how or what to balance, the majority of good pvpers will be gone. it's not that people leave swtor for other games, it's that every time a new game comes out (because of the lack of direction and proper decision making), people leave and never come back.

 

I'm not sure this will motivate anyone to do anything. If I don't want to do 4s, then I don't need Obroan gear. So why would I start queuing for 4s to get gear that I don't need? It also creates a barrier to entry for 4s, since I'm already facing more experienced teams and now they have better gear (even if it's only slightly better) because I couldn't get it prior to competiting.

 

They need to increase the queue population and the major factor keeping people from queuing is skill differential. A new team should have 0 chance to face the teams that are playing consistently. BW needs to fix the matchmaking (for both queues) so that ratings are actually close and there needs to be a maximum rating difference in order for a game to happen. If 1000 rated teams know they won't face a 2000 rated team, they will be far more likely to queue up. As it is now, they will face whoever is available first, even if there was a closer rated team in queue.

 

TL;DR comms aren't the way to do it, just use the actual ratings to make the games better.

[orryko]

I'm not sure this will motivate anyone to do anything. If I don't want to do 4s, then I don't need Obroan gear. So why would I start queuing for 4s to get gear that I don't need? It also creates a barrier to entry for 4s, since I'm already facing more experienced teams and now they have better gear (even if it's only slightly better) because I couldn't get it prior to competiting.

 

They need to increase the queue population and the major factor keeping people from queuing is skill differential. A new team should have 0 chance to face the teams that are playing consistently. BW needs to fix the matchmaking (for both queues) so that ratings are actually close and there needs to be a maximum rating difference in order for a game to happen. If 1000 rated teams know they won't face a 2000 rated team, they will be far more likely to queue up. As it is now, they will face whoever is available first, even if there was a closer rated team in queue.

 

TL;DR comms aren't the way to do it, just use the actual ratings to make the games better.

 

no...

 

there is no matchmaking because people are too scared to queue

 

if people could only get the best gear from 4s, then overnight there would be 100+ teams

 

yes, you have to play and get stomped by the best teams sometimes. boohoo.

[Uber_the_Goober]

Arenas, solo ranked ques, and season 1 have not changed the self-destructive pattern of the current ranked PvP system.

 

<snipped wall o' text>

 

Please comment or propose your own changes to the current PvP system. And please don’t beat any dead horses like cross-server que.

 

1. Learn what concision means - and use it.

2. Sorry bro, these changes are not only NEVER going to happen, they're not particularly insightful. They don't address the core "issues" with PvP - which are MATCHMAKING. The "Dead Horse" of cross-server-queues is the only conversation that will lead to a solution.

[Jadescythe]

no...

 

there is no matchmaking because people are too scared to queue

 

if people could only get the best gear from 4s, then overnight there would be 100+ teams

 

yes, you have to play and get stomped by the best teams sometimes. boohoo.

 

No, the matchmaking system really doesn't work. I can't really comment on group queue, since there are only like 4-5 teams in it at a time, but solo queue matchmaking is horrible. It's a complete joke instead of just a joke when they allow one team to have a 700 rated member when the other has a 2000 rated member.

 

Sure, if you REALLY want to do competitive PvP in SWTOR, you'll suffer through the absolute stompings that you take. But 99% of people are going to say eff it and queue regs (like they already do). You don't need the top tier gear to queue 4 competent people into regs and destroy everyone, so anyone not interested in losing games all night still has no incentive to do 4s with your changes.

[orryko]

No, the matchmaking system really doesn't work. I can't really comment on group queue, since there are only like 4-5 teams in it at a time, but solo queue matchmaking is horrible. It's a complete joke instead of just a joke when they allow one team to have a 700 rated member when the other has a 2000 rated member.

 

Sure, if you REALLY want to do competitive PvP in SWTOR, you'll suffer through the absolute stompings that you take. But 99% of people are going to say eff it and queue regs (like they already do). You don't need the top tier gear to queue 4 competent people into regs and destroy everyone, so anyone not interested in losing games all night still has no incentive to do 4s with your changes.

 

yeah but the fact some people would have the best gear is what would drive the others to get it. not sure if you've ever played wow, but that's how it works there.

 

i agree solo queue is horrid. but that shouldn't be a ranked thing anyway.

 

for group queue, matchmaking appears to work. if our average group has a 2k rating and another team is 1300ish, even if we're the only two teams in queue, it will take up to 10 mins sometimes to pop. to me, it seems that they system is desperately trying to match people

[Jadescythe]

yeah but the fact some people would have the best gear is what would drive the others to get it. not sure if you've ever played wow, but that's how it works there.

 

i agree solo queue is horrid. but that shouldn't be a ranked thing anyway.

 

for group queue, matchmaking appears to work. if our average group has a 2k rating and another team is 1300ish, even if we're the only two teams in queue, it will take up to 10 mins sometimes to pop. to me, it seems that they system is desperately trying to match people

 

The only group ranked I've done in arenas was a few matches with Imprimis. Instant pops against your team, RSU, and someone else.

 

As someone who enjoys competitive PvP in general, but has no desire to do so in this game, I don't even feel the need to get Obroan through currently available channels. I think my Jugg might have 50-75% Obroan. I just min/max my Conqueror and enjoy some matches. Needless to say, I'm not going to start doing 4s to get gear that I have no reason to obtain.

 

Now if ranked PvP felt competitive to me, then I'd consider doing it. Competitive meaning that the games are actually even. Not everyone who would like to have a team of their friends participate wants to dedicate enough time to be one of the best 5-10 teams on the server. But those are the only teams queueing currently. It's more enjoyable overall to just hit up the reg queue.

 

TL;DR The ability to get gear I don't need isn't an incentive to me, but knowing I will only face equal competition is

[MrFrezzer]

no...

 

there is no matchmaking because people are too scared to queue

 

if people could only get the best gear from 4s, then overnight there would be 100+ teams

 

yes, you have to play and get stomped by the best teams sometimes. boohoo.

 

 

+1.... Real ELO equation wouldn't allow such match making to even happen. They must of had to alter it since the number of people is just too low for it to work correctly. 2k rated teams should never even play 1300 rating teams ever according to the true ELO equation.

Edited March 19, 2014 by MrFrezzer