DPS Commando PvP theory crafting

[Scotfo]

I thought that PvP was about burst your target down faster you can.

 

Give up all the Damned Gunnery Burst for an "easy healable" damage and a pretty unreliable snare?

 

No ty.

 

Try a spec 31 Gunnery 10 AS? Maybe.

 

But atm i'm doing too good with my 7/32/2 Spec.

I tried AS spec with my Commando and i found it totally lacking in burst damage on PvP.

 

The current state of SWTOR PvP does not revolve around burst at the moment. The closest you come to any class with burst are agents/assassins/shadows. Even they can not kill you in 2 or 3 GCD's if you are playing your class well. Even in PvP in WoW burst was less relevant to control in high end arena's. Burst is mitigated by any team with a dedicated healer who know what they are doing. Don't get me wrong, burst is important when used at the right moment but is prioritized under control. This is not just my opinion but the general consensus of the High-end PvP community in general. However, if you are more comfortable with the playstyle of Gunnery then I can totally understand your decision of going that route. I simply find the playstyle of AS to give me an edge.

 

**Edit**

 

I would also like to clarify that AS damage is anything but "easily healable". AS is not as strong on a single stationary target then a Gunnery target with 5 stacks of gravity well. However, the chances of you being able to stand still long enough to get a full 5 stack of gravity well on a target in a rated WZ or arena setting are close to nil. I suggest the following tactic if you want some nice AS damage: Kite your enemy with hammer shot, incendiary, HIB until they are around 70% health since most people don't become a healing priority until around 50%-60% and healers usually prioritize people that are at lower health. Make sure your DoT's are refreshed. Toss a sticky, HIB, then cryo (doesn't matter if they use CC breaker, your just buying a split second) then immediately cast charged bolt and HIB if it proc's. Follow up with some explosive rounds to finish the job/keep up the pressure. Timed correctly, these should all hit close together doing a nice chunk of damage. Remember you should be trying to kite your target away from healers as well. Now this is just an example and it is not a "cookie-cutter" rotation to use (indeed there are really no cookie cutter rotations in PvP). This is simply an example of a chain that I find myself able to pull off with some consistency that deals a nice payload that either kills my opponent or put them in a serious health deficit. Result will, of course, vary depending on your ability to time cast's and react if they attempt to use gap closers/stuns ect.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Scotfo

[pizzaghul]

Interesting post...I disagree with the statement about Ops/Scoundrels though. With a little critluck, they can totally annihilate you inside their first stun. If you do have Tenacity ready and break it, you're up against a 100% HP player with yours rapidly dropping below 60. :/

[Roast-Beast]

well to be honest if you want to **** face, roll CM unlimited ammo, unlimited heals (obviously) take more damage, and you put out a good amount of damage yourself

[Dashall]

 

However, the chances of you being able to stand still long enough to get a full 5 stack of gravity well on a target in a rated WZ or arena setting are close to nil.

 

5 stack takes 3 1.5 second casts. Or just make due with a 4 stack. I think there is a lot to be said about mobility and the benefit of instant cast, but is it your contention that nobody in PvP uses any abilities with cast times?

[hadoken]

5 stack takes 3 1.5 second casts. Or just make due with a 4 stack. I think there is a lot to be said about mobility and the benefit of instant cast, but is it your contention that nobody in PvP uses any abilities with cast times?

 

There's just an apparently vocal segment of the Commando population that feels casting gets you killed. Standing there spamming cast after cast with no forethought to what is coming your way (or on you) will, but that doesn't mean all abilities with cast times suck and get you killed by default. 1.5s casts fire off pretty damn fast, actually.

[EthicsGradient]

I'd say gunnery gets somewhat better dps with slightly lower mobility but remember that even though this thread is specifically about dps there is more to pvp.... Assault gets that nice reactive shield cooldown talent for example, while gunnery buffs your knockbacks.

[Scotfo]

5 stack takes 3 1.5 second casts. Or just make due with a 4 stack. I think there is a lot to be said about mobility and the benefit of instant cast, but is it your contention that nobody in PvP uses any abilities with cast times?

 

Not at all! I'm just stating that, in my experience, while playing against organized and skilled team they should be CC'ing and pressuring you (and you doing the same to them) enough to make it almost impossible to keep up your stacks. You will of course be casting and getting casts off, but in my experience the opportunities that present themselves aren't always consistent enough to reliably get a cast off in time to A)build up to 5 stacks before your debuff drops or B) maintain the buff if you actually succeed in getting to 5 stacks. I'm not sure if there are any abilities that can cleanse gravity well, but that would make it even harder to gain stacks. I'm just speaking from my personal experience here, so if you are able to actually build and maintain a 5 stack de-buff on your opponent in an organized and competitive PvP environment then I applaud you. I'm not being sarcastic here. I would say that it is a testament to your PvP skill if you can do so. I would need to see proof before I believed it though.

[Cappn]

Kiting as AS is, in my opinion, far to random. Sometimes you get sweltering heat, other times you don't. You combine this with Melee counters and you really can't do much other than spam 1 and hope.

 

If you gravitate away from spamming 1, you'll lose sweltering heat. And they'll be on you very quickly.

 

I would recommend other abilities apply Sweltering Heat, such as IR. Meanwhile increaseing sweltering heats duration by a second or two to alleviate the randomness of its affect.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Cappn

[Siedler]

I'm 50 now and Gunnery spec all the way.

 

I agree on the first posts ideas that mobility sounds great on paper, but you can still make things happen as stationary.

 

I always finish top 3 on dmg, and I use the terrain to my advantage.

 

My problems are operatives and other sneaky ****s that jumpes me, then i loose 70% of the time.

 

But as a rule I never wander off alone.

 

I stay in the group and when the fight starts, I am the one that brings everyone down, I crit 3k and just stand there delivering and delivering.

 

Most kills and DMG is always my goal. And some healing for that medal to

 

Gunnery is a team player, cant do much by himself.

 

AS is more all around but not nearly the same DPS, messured side by side.

[Scotfo]

Kiting as AS is, in my opinion, far to random. Sometimes you get sweltering heat, other times you don't. You combine this with Melee counters and you really can't do much other than spam 1 and hope.

 

If you gravitate away from spamming 1, you'll lose sweltering heat. And they'll be on you very quickly.

 

I would recommend other abilities apply Sweltering Heat, such as IR. Meanwhile increaseing sweltering heats duration by a second or two to alleviate the randomness of its affect.

 

Actually, "Spamming 1" is an extremely effective and reliable way to kite. I suspect that Hammer Round is actually multiple small attacks in 1 ability. Watch your flying text when you crank one off. You'll see multiple hit's and some critting while others do not. I've also noticed that sweltering heat debuff applies at varied times during hammer shot. This implies that each attack has a chance to apply the de-buff. This is all just a theory based on observation of course and I may be completely off. There will be really no way to know for sure unless a Dev states otherwise or we finally get a combat text box implemented.

My apologies for getting sidetracked there. My point was that I use Hammer shot as an effective snare to reliably gain me range on a regular basis. It's proc rate is sufficient to gain distance on an opponent if your strafing properly and we have counter measures for gap closers. This doesn't mean that you will always be able to kite a skilled player and win. Chances for victory often come down to who has key abilities on CD and this is always a factor...as it is with all classes. I wouldn't complain if Bioware took your advice though. Would make my life easier when kiting after all.

[LordKivlov]

The split up damage does not add more chances for it to proc.

 

AS is a dueling class for kiting and generally making yourself look good in PvP by doing nothing. You do a lot of damage but none of it is really meaningful unless you're standing there rotating CB/FA with HIB which if you are, why not gunnery?

[Scotfo]

The split up damage does not add more chances for it to proc.

 

AS is a dueling class for kiting and generally making yourself look good in PvP by doing nothing. You do a lot of damage but none of it is really meaningful unless you're standing there rotating CB/FA with HIB which if you are, why not gunnery?

 

Well I guess that settles it then. AS commando's in PvP provide meaningless damage are only good for duels. Kiting is only good for dueling you see. LordKivlov said so therefore it is true. Seriously though, I am teasing you, but you got to admit you kind of deserve it by making such a silly statement without any tactical reasons, relatable scenarios’, or math to back it up. I am also curious as to your reference that the split up damage does not have individual chance to proc. I'm not saying your wrong about that. I'm saying that I have no way to definitively knowing right now and you haven't provided sources that shows you do. I'm not trying to start an e-peen battle with you. I'm just saying that you obviously have an opinion, but we're more interested in how you back your opinion up.

[Kenmuir]

Well I guess that settles it then. AS commando's in PvP provide meaningless damage are only good for duels. Kiting is only good for dueling you see. LordKivlov said so therefore it is true. Seriously though, I am teasing you, but you got to admit you kind of deserve it by making such a silly statement without any tactical reasons, relatable scenarios’, or math to back it up. I am also curious as to your reference that the split up damage does not have individual chance to proc. I'm not saying your wrong about that. I'm saying that I have no way to definitively knowing right now and you haven't provided sources that shows you do. I'm not trying to start an e-peen battle with you. I'm just saying that you obviously have an opinion, but we're more interested in how you back your opinion up.

 

Go back and read the thread. You deal less damage with AS on all of your attacks, save for Assault Plastique over Sticky Grenade, even then it's almost a wash. Please read the entire post before commenting, I've already made many posts detailing this, if there's anything you think I did wrong or don't understand, I would be happy to expand upon it.

[xPrTx]

The split up damage does not add more chances for it to proc.

 

AS is a dueling class for kiting and generally making yourself look good in PvP by doing nothing. You do a lot of damage but none of it is really meaningful unless you're standing there rotating CB/FA with HIB which if you are, why not gunnery?

 

 

The split up damage DOES add more chances for procs. In the same way that the split up damage of Full Auto can proc the 1 Ammo return on crit, in the Gunnery tree.

 

We went over this. Hammer Shot = 41% chance to proc Plasma Cell.

 

Why do people who have never played AS keep commenting.

 

 

Im sick of this.

 

AS Has higher burst. Higher sustained damage. Higher survivability.

 

Assault Plastique does more damage then any skill Gunnery has.

AS HIB does more damage then any gunnery skill. ( Herp 60% critical with 240% crit damage ).

 

The best burst Gunnery can do is Sticky -> Grav -> Demo.

 

The best burst AS can do is Assault Plastique ( more then sticky herp ) -> Charged bolts ( More then Grav HERP ) -> HIB ( More then Demo HERP DERP ).

 

 

Dots will always provide better sustain. Ionic Acceleration does not have a Cooldown. Curtain of Fire does for you pve nerds out there. It also naturally has a higher chance to proc.

 

More movement = More Survivability.

 

 

Don't sit here and try to math me on this. It's pretty blatantly obvious.

[Scotfo]

Go back and read the thread. You deal less damage with AS on all of your attacks, save for Assault Plastique over Sticky Grenade, even then it's almost a wash. Please read the entire post before commenting, I've already made many posts detailing this, if there's anything you think I did wrong or don't understand, I would be happy to expand upon it.

 

I have read the entire thread. Please go back and read my original post two pages back which disputes the claim that a simple damage increase does not make a superior PvP spec. There are other factors that come into play. I have nothing against Gunnery and personally found it fun to play. I simply disagree with some assertions made here and stated a case against them. I am supporting a class tree I believe possesses great potential and that I used to a great degree of success. Please come back to me when you have less baseless accusation of not reading the post, in an attempt to invalidate my point of view differing from your own. Instead, let's be constructive and you can present a counter-point or see that maybe I make some valid points. I don't want an argument, I just want to facilitate a healthy robust dialogue that will end with everyone more informed (including myself) on various ways to approach PvP. This way, we can all make our own informed decisions on how we decide to play.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Scotfo

[LordKivlov]

Well I guess that settles it then. AS commando's in PvP provide meaningless damage are only good for duels. Kiting is only good for dueling you see. LordKivlov said so therefore it is true. Seriously though, I am teasing you, but you got to admit you kind of deserve it by making such a silly statement without any tactical reasons, relatable scenarios’, or math to back it up. I am also curious as to your reference that the split up damage does not have individual chance to proc. I'm not saying your wrong about that. I'm saying that I have no way to definitively knowing right now and you haven't provided sources that shows you do. I'm not trying to start an e-peen battle with you. I'm just saying that you obviously have an opinion, but we're more interested in how you back your opinion up.

 

Granted.

 

Your main damage output with AS, as suggested by most AS players that support the spec that I've talked to, is your DoTs. They even admit that AS is meant to slowly burn your target down which is all fine and dandy in a 1v1 situation where there's no healer to nullify the effect of your DoTs (since they don't pack enough damage to outpace a healers ammo/force/whathave you).

When this comes into a team setting, you're going to be spreading your damage out on multiple targets instead of trying to burn one target down since, while mobile which is the apparent selling point of AS, you don't exactly burst for a lot. Your main burst is your nade which is the same as a demolition round, just AoE and for less damage on a single target.

 

From that, most of your damage is going to be padded on multiple targets, which if they have less than ideal heals, is great but the defense of it is 'skilled players will **** on gunnery'. Well, a skilled healer is going to negate your DoTs no problem.

 

Another defense of it was that you can just jump behind and LoS the gunnery because they have an activation time. True. But that's assuming your gunnery commando has downs. As layed out (above? or in another thread). We have plenty of ways to keep a target in our sights to get a full auto and a couple grav rounds off. (By plenty, I mean 2,cry and the snare from full auto/conc charge. CC is not our strong point).

 

I'd go into numbers but Kenmuir has already done it a few times.

 

The mobility thing AS gives you is really an illusion. You do infact do more damage than gunnery does if gunnery has to move, but once I get a chance to stop moving and shoot, I'm going to leave you far behind in terms of killing important targets (healers) and laying out damage. By not standing still, you're ditching one of your greatest talents in AS which is resetting cooldown on HIB and making it free. That should be taken advantage of as much as possible.

 

I'm not saying AS is bad. You do do a lot of damage, but if you play gunnery at range and use terrain if you can, or distance if you can, you will dominate AS. I don't do as much damage with AS, but it is still a fun spec.

 

Edit: Assault Plastique does not outburst Demo round. That assertion is silly. The only time it does more damage is when you use DR without any GR stacks.

Edited December 30, 2011 by LordKivlov

[Dashall]

Not at all! I'm just stating that, in my experience, while playing against organized and skilled team they should be CC'ing and pressuring you (and you doing the same to them) enough to make it almost impossible to keep up your stacks. You will of course be casting and getting casts off, but in my experience the opportunities that present themselves aren't always consistent enough to reliably get a cast off in time to A)build up to 5 stacks before your debuff drops or B) maintain the buff if you actually succeed in getting to 5 stacks. I'm not sure if there are any abilities that can cleanse gravity well, but that would make it even harder to gain stacks. I'm just speaking from my personal experience here, so if you are able to actually build and maintain a 5 stack de-buff on your opponent in an organized and competitive PvP environment then I applaud you. I'm not being sarcastic here. I would say that it is a testament to your PvP skill if you can do so. I would need to see proof before I believed it though.

 

Well a couple of things: talented grav round generates 2 stacks per hit, so it's not hard to get 4 on people I find. Second is in my experience I want AS when I'm running around in a smaller engagement with no support or teammates that I know along with me.

 

Really what we're talking though is Incendiary round vrs Demo round. Plastique is a better Sticky and Grav round is a better Charged bolt. Demo is burst on a 15 sec CD, Incendiary is spammable instant DoT. It's a tough call.

 

Unfortunately the team I played with in Rift isnt with me in this game, but if I had them supporting me I'd feel certain I could get off a lot of Grav rounds! Mainly because a couple of them always gain enough notoriety to get a LOT of attention during matches leaving me to go nuts heh. That said I completely understand your points and well taken. I'm not trashing AS or even saying Gunnery is better overall, just that it is viable. I will try AS again and be able to judge better for myself.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Dashall

[Kenmuir]

 

Im sick of this.

 

AS Has higher burst. Higher sustained damage. Higher survivability.

 

No, no, and no. Please read the thread, none of what you just typed is true.

 

 

Assault Plastique does more damage then any skill Gunnery has.

AS HIB does more damage then any gunnery skill. ( Herp 60% critical with 240% crit damage ).

 

Again, everything you type is hyperbole. Assault does the same damage as sticky on a target with 60% Kinetic Reduction..

 

HIB deals more damage with Gunnery, the only way for them to be close is to chain cast Charged Bolts to max out the cooldown resets, AKA you are just as "immobile" as Gunnery.

 

 

 

The best burst Gunnery can do is Sticky -> Grav -> Demo.

 

The best burst AS can do is Assault Plastique ( more then sticky herp ) -> Charged bolts ( More then Grav HERP ) -> HIB ( More then Demo HERP DERP ).

 

 

You forgot the HIB that Gunnery can also cast in there and the Incendiary Round that AS has to get off before using Charged Bolts or HIB.

 

Charged Bolts dealing more damage than Grav Round? If somehow your .33 ratio weapon damage and 9% damage on burning targets can over come a .12 tech damage bonus, .41 base damage bonus, and a 35% armor pen. Then yes CB will out damage Grav Round, but in reality it will not.

 

Again, why are you comparing HIB to Demo Round? They are not the abilities you should be comparing. How many times are you going to get this wrong?

 

Demo is the Gunnery Equivalent of Incendiary Round in AS

HIB is the Gunnery equivalent of HIB in AS.

 

 

Dots will always provide better sustain.

No.

 

Ionic Acceleration does not have a Cooldown.

 

It has a 3second cooldown, it just doesn't need to be a stated cooldown. If you cast HIB, you can cast Charged Bolts, 1.5s, cast HIB, 1.5s, cast Charged Bolts, 1.5s, cast HIB. It ends up having a cooldown of 3 seconds.

 

 

Curtain of Fire does for you pve nerds out there. It also naturally has a higher chance to proc.

 

Curtain of Fire and Ionic Acceleration have the same chance to proc.

 

More movement = More Survivability.

 

 

Don't sit here and try to math me on this. It's pretty blatantly obvious.

 

More movement does not necessitate more survivability.

But you seem to be ignoring the fact that Gunnery also has better CC tools, lower cooldown on Tenacity and Conc Charge, knock back on stockstrike, longer knock back on Conc Charge, Slow on Full auto, 10% damage reduction on Grav Round.

 

Compared to AS's slow on Plasma cell procs, Reduced cooldown on Adrenaline rush(amount dependent on the number of Critical hits), reduced cooldown on Reactive Shield(amount dependent on the number of times you are hit), reactive shield removes CC.

 

Looks like Gunnery wins that category too.

[Scotfo]

Granted.

 

Your main damage output with AS, as suggested by most AS players that support the spec that I've talked to, is your DoTs. They even admit that AS is meant to slowly burn your target down which is all fine and dandy in a 1v1 situation where there's no healer to nullify the effect of your DoTs (since they don't pack enough damage to outpace a healers ammo/force/whathave you).

When this comes into a team setting, you're going to be spreading your damage out on multiple targets instead of trying to burn one target down since, while mobile which is the apparent selling point of AS, you don't exactly burst for a lot. Your main burst is your nade which is the same as a demolition round, just AoE and for less damage on a single target.

 

From that, most of your damage is going to be padded on multiple targets, which if they have less than ideal heals, is great but the defense of it is 'skilled players will **** on gunnery'. Well, a skilled healer is going to negate your DoTs no problem.

 

Another defense of it was that you can just jump behind and LoS the gunnery because they have an activation time. True. But that's assuming your gunnery commando has downs. As layed out (above? or in another thread). We have plenty of ways to keep a target in our sights to get a full auto and a couple grav rounds off. (By plenty, I mean 2,cry and the snare from full auto/conc charge. CC is not our strong point).

 

I'd go into numbers but Kenmuir has already done it a few times.

 

The mobility thing AS gives you is really an illusion. You do infact do more damage than gunnery does if gunnery has to move, but once I get a chance to stop moving and shoot, I'm going to leave you far behind in terms of killing important targets (healers) and laying out damage. By not standing still, you're ditching one of your greatest talents in AS which is resetting cooldown on HIB and making it free. That should be taken advantage of as much as possible.

 

I'm not saying AS is bad. You do do a lot of damage, but if you play gunnery at range and use terrain if you can, or distance if you can, you will dominate AS. I don't do as much damage with AS, but it is still a fun spec.

 

Edit: Assault Plastique does not outburst Demo round. That assertion is silly. The only time it does more damage is when you use DR without any GR stacks.

 

Now this is what I'm talking about! A thought out response with some valid points! I'm being serious here. This is the sort of reply I appreciate. I do have to disagree with a couple point you made though. First point would be that a basis of "once the gunnery commando can stand still for a second he is clearly superior!". Using this as a basis to claim gunnery is a superior PvP spec is not a solid assertion. What it does show is that gunnery is a superior spec under certain conditions that allow you to remain stationary while focus firing a target. Now if we are talking about a rated WZ, for instance, I will concede that a Gunnery spec will burn down focus targets much more efficiently then AS. However, an AS commando in the same situation will be able to perform superior AoE to keep the pressure up on the healers. This was a common tactic used in WoW's rated BG's where you attempted to get as many enemies in a health deficit while burning down priority target with focus fire. How does AS have superior AoE? First off, we have a harder hitting sticky then Gunnery has available. Secondly, our plasma grenades ticks hits 30% harder on targets under 30% health. Finally, our Hail of Bolts has a greater chance to apply our plasma round DoT to it's targets(which also hits 30% harder on target under 30%). Gunnery has no advantages over AS with AoE. I would assert that you would not definitively do more damage then an equally skilled AS commando, but that your damage would be focused where his would be spread out.

 

Next would be the example of an arena type scenario. There's really not much to say here: if your opponents are ignoring you enough to let you set back and cast, they need more experience and are not very skilled. I'm sure you played arena's in WoW and know that in high rated arena's where everyone could deal incredible damage(both burst and sustained) control became the key factor to victory. So, I would say the benefit of kiting and keeping enemies in combat with DoT's are more then an illusion of usefulness. Also, a AS can use terrain just like you can.

 

Also, I never stated that Assault Plastique outbursts Demo. I don't think I've ever even mentioned Assault Plastique until this post. If I am mistaken, please quote me so I can see where I said it.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Scotfo

[LordKivlov]

That was pointed at xpert. Grav Round armour pen + 25% damage increase + AP Cell will make it always do far more damage to a single target. [edit] Nvm. APlastique doesn't even AoE. No way it's better in any way.

 

True points on keeping pressure up. However, as commando healer, I haven't really been put into a scenario where I'm pressed the entire time to keep everyone out of deficiet because the heals in this are all fairly ammo efficient so long as you don't straight up spam Medical Probe. I'm not sure with other healers, but I do know that they also have cheap spammable heals to help keep everyone out of deficiet.

 

We'll have to see once there are organized matches because it currently just seems like if you can't keep them up, then you can't keep them up. People die when I'm healing them because they get focus fired and there's no tank to drop a taunt or guard on them, not because everyone is being pressured. With a tank running around protecting people, it's almost laughable to heal people in a pug so I don't expect, with healers working together, that it'll be a huge issue to heal through plasma cell + incendiary round on multiple people without taxing your resource too much.

 

But still, just looking at the numbers on abilities, and playing with AS Commandos, just doesn't seem like it out performs gunnery. Maybe in some aspects, but then the discussion could be (partially) dismissed as they perform different roles. Gunnery being a priority target killer and AS beinga general pain to everything by taxing the support classes. The balancing is such that everything does good damage, just a matter number crunching now to optimize everything.

 

Also, now that I think about it. I guess Plasma Cell would proc more on hammer shot since it's split into 3 attacks. However, that's the only benefit it gains as it still is roll to crit on each one which will average out to be the same as if all of them crit off the same roll chance.

Edited December 30, 2011 by LordKivlov

[Scotfo]

Maybe in some aspects, but then the discussion could be (partially) dismissed as they perform different roles.

 

I think your spot on with the above observation. I agree that we will really have to wait and see until end game PvP becomes available to see how everything works out. Well. at any rate I wish you the best on the battlefield with your chosen spec! Bring the hurt to the Empire!

Edited December 30, 2011 by Scotfo

[Butches]

Again, everything you type is hyperbole. Assault does the same damage as sticky on a target with 60% Kinetic Reduction..

 

No number crunching of any kind can support this statement. Firstly it neglects that not all targets have the same amount of armor, so in certain situations the arpen you get with gunnery becomes arbitrary. Making your general statement of it doing the same damage kind of one sided. Lastly it also excludes the fact that AP has greater returns on crit dmg, which means it scales better with gear.

 

HIB deals more damage with Gunnery, the only way for them to be close is to chain cast Charged Bolts to max out the cooldown resets, AKA you are just as "immobile" as Gunnery.

 

A comparison of the two specs in this way is pretty ignorant of the nature of assault. You're looking at the two from a pure throughput perspective, well that isnt the point of assault. Gunnery's max output revolves around staying on one target for extended periods of time, the spec does not lend it self to target switching and high movement. The 30% dmg bonus you get from gunnery to HIB is built around a stacking buff, where as the 30% crit bonus you get from assault has no such conditions on it. If you're looking at pure throughput yeah sure you're probably right, but you miss the entire point of assault.

 

More movement does not necessitate more survivability.

But you seem to be ignoring the fact that Gunnery also has better CC tools, lower cooldown on Tenacity and Conc Charge, knock back on stockstrike, longer knock back on Conc Charge, Slow on Full auto, 10% damage reduction on Grav Round.

 

Compared to AS's slow on Plasma cell procs, Reduced cooldown on Adrenaline rush(amount dependent on the number of Critical hits), reduced cooldown on Reactive Shield(amount dependent on the number of times you are hit), reactive shield removes CC.

Looks like Gunnery wins that category too.

 

And increased stealth detect along with energy returns with stuns / immobilize. But non of those get at the main point of why to go assault. The reason is versitility. For instance, a gunnery HIB depends on grav round in order to be utilized to its fullest potential. Not only for the increased damage, but also just from a pure usage standpoint. You cannot HIB without a grav round already in play. Same is true of assault, but in a different way. Incidiary round is an instant cast, which means if im forced to kite a target with no dot on them it wont be something i need to worry about. It's a versitile spec that is forgiving when put in situations like these. Is assault lower in dps? Yes no one would argue about that, but gunnery's dps is weakened by situations revolving around target switching and movement. Not to a point that makes you weaksauce, but enough for the differences between the two isnt as vast. Fact of the matter is you cannot reach your max throughput unless you're targeting something you shouldnt be targeting or doing something you shouldn't be doing. IE not using stuns / targeting a tank / targeting a healer with guard etc..

[Fight]

This is too much hard work, I'm going CM

[Kenmuir]

No number crunching of any kind can support this statement. Firstly it neglects that not all targets have the same amount of armor, so in certain situations the arpen you get with gunnery becomes arbitrary.

 

Wow. I said that AP does more damage on targets with less than 60% Kinetic Reduction and less on targets with more, and that somehow doesn't include that your targets can have different amounts of armor?

 

Making your general statement of it doing the same damage kind of one sided. Lastly it also excludes the fact that AP has greater returns on crit dmg, which means it scales better with gear.

 

How much better does it scale? 30% extra crit damage, or 35%(46%) armor pen? Which one do you think will scale better? The one that's dependent on RNG or the one that applies to everything you do?

 

 

 

A comparison of the two specs in this way is pretty ignorant of the nature of assault. You're looking at the two from a pure throughput perspective, well that isnt the point of assault.

 

What is the point of Assault then? If it's not damage what is it? Crowd Control? lol Mobility? You have the same types of spells, anything you can do with Assault you could create an equivalent to it with Gunnery.

 

 

Gunnery's max output revolves around staying on one target for extended periods of time, the spec does not lend it self to target switching and high movement.

 

The same could be said about Assault, unless you want to run around spamming Hammer Shot just to proc the slow, but then you'd be doing low amounts of damage. Or you think tab DOTing with incendiary is good dps.

 

The 30% dmg bonus you get from gunnery to HIB is built around a stacking buff, where as the 30% crit bonus you get from assault has no such conditions on it.

 

Other than having to get a critical hit on a 15second cooldown ability. Also, Grav round is the go to ability for Gunnery, just like Charged Bolts is for Assault.

 

 

If you're looking at pure throughput yeah sure you're probably right, but you miss the entire point of assault.

 

Again I will ask, what is the point of Assault? If you are going to say more mobility please try and show it with examples and something resembling theorycraft. Maybe a few numbers too.

 

 

And increased stealth detect along with energy returns with stuns / immobilize.

 

I would think most Lvl 50 Gunnery builds will have the energy return, and I would contest the usefulness of increased stealth detect.

 

 

But non of those get at the main point of why to go assault. The reason is versitility. For instance, a gunnery HIB depends on grav round in order to be utilized to its fullest potential.

 

Just like Assault HIB depends on Charged Bolts to be utilized to its fullest potential?

 

Not only for the increased damage, but also just from a pure usage standpoint. You cannot HIB without a grav round already in play. Same is true of assault, but in a different way. Incidiary round is an instant cast, which means if im forced to kite a target with no dot on them it wont be something i need to worry about.

 

If you can't get a 1.5s cast with a 15second debuff down, you lost the battle anyway. Assault might be better when you're hit by a stealth class, but even then the only advantage you would have is a slow on Hammer Shot, which even an Assassin could outdamage you at range. Gunnery also has a longer knockback to make leading with Grav round easier, instead of having to depend on an RNG effect with Assault.

 

 

It's a versitile spec that is forgiving when put in situations like these. Is assault lower in dps? Yes no one would argue about that, but gunnery's dps is weakened by situations revolving around target switching and movement.

 

Why do you keep saying this? How? Gunnery has to start it's rotation with a 1.5s cast, 2 ammo ability, while Assault has to start with an instacast, 3 ammo ability? One instacast ability at the start of a rotation on a ranged class is the difference between a turret and a headless chicken? How is Gunnery more hurt by target switching than Assault? With assault you need the burn effect for your spec to function, meaning you lead off with a 3 ammo ability or you pray for a Plasma Cell proc. Gunnery needs to lead off with a 1.5s cast 2 ammo ability(which becomes 1 cell on a crit!), in my experience so far, that's not very hard. Or you wait until you can get off a safe Grav Round while using your many other skills.

 

 

Not to a point that makes you weaksauce, but enough for the differences between the two isnt as vast. Fact of the matter is you cannot reach your max throughput unless you're targeting something you shouldnt be targeting or doing something you shouldn't be doing. IE not using stuns / targeting a tank / targeting a healer with guard etc..

 

I think most of you playing Assault would have a lot more fun playing Vanguard. It's really the class that you seem to think Assault spec is.

[LordKivlov]

Also, I noticed that full auto procs HIB when you use it so it determines it before it knows if your third hit will hit or not. Based on that, I'd say Plasma Cell does not receive multiple proc chances.