DPS Commando PvP theory crafting

[xPrTx]

Survivability vs Damage

 

Given the nature of Commando, and how its pretty much impossible to do significant damage while someones sitting on you, What ends up being more damaging in the long run? Gunnery or AS?

 

Depends on the WZ. Bare in mind we are disregarding the "Baddie" effect. Anyone can do well against people without skill, and when rated WZ's come out, you can put money on serious team's with target calling. Given that you pose a potential risk as a healer, you're gonna be way up there before they even see you do significant damage.

 

In voidstar: AS

In Alderaan: AS

In Huttball: AS

 

In Voidstar, it's near impossible for you to sit back and attack people without anyone jumping on you. No one is gonna let you run your Full Auto/Grav/Demo Combo. Voidstar is dominated by movement. You need to be able to get back into positions, rotate, hit a target and move, and you can't do that as a "Stationary Cannon".

 

In Alderaan, There is generally enough space for you to accomplish your goals as Gunnery. The problem is, Gunnery is generally going to be defending, and is one of the better defenders in the game. This means him sitting mid or left, and likely not rotating to much. There's not gonna be that same damage potential as a AS who can throw out damage on the move, while rotating. There will be games where Gunnery has the potential to wreck face in zerg mid fests, but again, given the relevance of Rated WZ's, your not gonna get that same damage in. This is why Vanguards are generally outscoring us in DPS. There total damage AND effect on Alderaan is stronger because of there ability to do multiple things at once. I have a 50 Vanguard friend I Que with who regularly scores 300k+ damage and 12 medals. In a stand still skill fest, Gunnery wins. But that's not the case in Alderaan.

 

Huttball, The ball is constantly moving. Need I say more?

 

 

I have a feeling that the farther we get into the game, the more and more were gonna see builds moving more twoards AS. Specifically utilizing Hammer Shot/Incendiary round considerably more.

 

Add your own theories or debunk mine. It's all good here!

[dejavy]

AS is cool but now i test Gunnery and feel very nice in groups. Duels are also fine especially with range dps classes. There are certain troubles in melee zone but i'm sure i'll find out how to stand melee class pressure. I just don't like to melt my enemies, i prefer to hit hard immediately and to have an opportunity to use concusive round whenever i want, not when the foe stoped burning.

[LordKivlov]

Ugh. You made me look at the Vanguard trees and their dps tree does everything that I expected Commando to do.

 

Oh well, not going to reroll at 40 now :| Serves me right for picking the class that uses the cooler looking gun.

 

Anyways, AS looks like it only has a little bit more utility for moving. You've got your Incendiary **** and Plasma Cell but you trade off 1 ammo less on charged bolt and high impact bolt.

 

Doesn't seem worth it to me unless you're play huttball in which you actually have to chase the ball carrier which in most cases, they're moving fairly slowly anyways. Now it would be nice to be able to run with them, hitting them with DoTs but I still think AS will have supreme ammo issues in comparison to gunnery. Going to be doing a lot of hammershotting.

 

If they call you out as a target, you're going to die anyways or be stunned/thrown around just as much as you would standing still. Might as well deal as much damage as possible in most situations since the only time I don't drop people is when the marauder or whatever the guardian mirror is gets on me because they have 2 full focus bars worth of CC.

Edited December 23, 2011 by LordKivlov

[SupaReform]

After 26 levels of gunner play I will try out AS because like previously said if ur not playing baddies ur gonna have to move ALOT, which gunners cant do. Yes u **** but u get ***** more than u **** lol. Constant channeling is a problem considering u have to sit in melee range to get a good shot off. The slow effect is no good because they can quicky close that gap before u get one Gav shot off. I put points in the knock back hoping it would do the trick but they still close in to fast. I will try AS and then post how I feel about it in PVP

[ViperI]

From my experience in Beta, AS is better for PvP than is Gunnery. Gunnery works great in PvE, but it is too stationary and too dependent on cast times to be useful in PvP, IMO. I probably increased my damage output by 40% the first time I did a warzone as AS spec compared to the many warzones I did in the Gunnery spec.

[Chomag]

Commando sucks at solo pvp. You only get to choose the degree of suckiness: gunnery for epic fail OR assault for mild fail.

 

Either way, prepare to be a favorite dish for melee classes as once they're in your face you ain't shaking them off.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Chomag

[Tren]

So I after spending the first 25 (technically 15/25) levels as Gunnery, I'm switching over to Assault for the increased mobility as I'll be touching down on Tattooine soon and will be seeing more PVP action. I will probably go back to Gunnery end-game, I really like the spec, but I want to spend some heavy playtime as Assault - haven't specced it since Nov. beta.

 

I've been tweaking around with build ideas. My thought is to prioritize Control > Survivability > Damage > Sustainability wherever possible:

 

3/6/32 Assault PVP Build

 

What I skipped and why:

 

Heavy Stock: Ideally I'd like to be out of Stockstrike range whenever possible, and 2 pts for 8% on 1 ability isn't particularly efficient.

 

Parallatic Combat Stims: I realize there are a lot of stuns and CC's being thrown around, but 2 pts to gain 1 cell doesn't seem like a good buy.

 

Rapid Recharge: This is one I think I might miss. 6 cells back on-demand every 90 sec for 2 pts is a really good deal. I'm just optimistic that the trend I've seen will continue & I'll have enough time to slip into R&R for a few sec between firefights. Might pass on Nightvision to pick this up... we'll see.

 

Adrenaline Fueled: Adrenaline Rush has good PVP value. Reserve Powercell not as much. This is *potentially* another one that could be taken instead of Nightvision. I just want to be a thorn in the side of Assassins everywhere though.

 

I think I might end up preferring Havoc Rounds over Advanced Tech, too, on second glance. A 2% heal swing isn't doing anybody any favors.

 

Anyway, that's what I've come up with. Anything you'd change?

Edited December 23, 2011 by Tren

[Tesseractual]

From my own experience, I feel like the above spec would really benefit from Cell Capacitor. Over all the points in field training. I know, it sucks ditching that extra crit but you'll burn through your ammo really quick in a firefight. Those extra rounds seem to help.

 

And as a commando that did some binge PvP last night as an AS spec, I can say it tops gunnery easily.

[Tren]

From my own experience, I feel like the above spec would really benefit from Cell Capacitor. Over all the points in field training. I know, it sucks ditching that extra crit but you'll burn through your ammo really quick in a firefight. Those extra rounds seem to help.

 

And as a commando that did some binge PvP last night as an AS spec, I can say it tops gunnery easily.

 

Well in that case, would it be better to drop Special Munitions & steal a 2nd point from Gunnery or Assault (From Advanced Tech/ Havoc Rounds or Nightvision Scope respectively?) Net result would be 6% Range & Tech Crit vs. 2% Range & 5% Tech Crit.

[xPrTx]

Ugh. You made me look at the Vanguard trees and their dps tree does everything that I expected Commando to do.

 

Oh well, not going to reroll at 40 now :| Serves me right for picking the class that uses the cooler looking gun.

 

Anyways, AS looks like it only has a little bit more utility for moving. You've got your Incendiary **** and Plasma Cell but you trade off 1 ammo less on charged bolt and high impact bolt.

 

Charged bolt shouldn't even be on your bar. If your gunnery, Grav completely replaced Charged Bolt. There is no trade off with that. Additionally, HIB refunds 1 ammo in the AS tree, so it's the EXACT same thing.

 

You aren't required to use Plasma Cell either.

 

Doesn't seem worth it to me unless you're play huttball in which you actually have to chase the ball carrier which in most cases, they're moving fairly slowly anyways. Now it would be nice to be able to run with them, hitting them with DoTs but I still think AS will have supreme ammo issues in comparison to gunnery. Going to be doing a lot of hammershotting.

 

Again, were disregarding the baddie effect. How do you think rated Huttball is gonna be played? Lots of people passing, and cooldowns such as Force Speed. You think Gunnery is gonna be able to get ANY damage in on that?

 

As for Hammer Shot, whats wrong with that? Generally speaking, Hammer Shot does comparable damage to a Charged Bolt, especially with the AS talent that upgrades it.

 

If they call you out as a target, you're going to die anyways or be stunned/thrown around just as much as you would standing still. Might as well deal as much damage as possible in most situations since the only time I don't drop people is when the marauder or whatever the guardian mirror is gets on me because they have 2 full focus bars worth of CC.

 

That's not how damage works. If your standing still, you make yourself an easier target. If 2 people jump on you and you continue to try and spam grav/Full Auto, you have ZERO chance to do anything.

 

If you move around, your mitigating damage and CC just by kiting. That's the entire point of mobility.

 

Now you add in Cooldown factors, Shield, Knockback, etc. If your standing still, it helps you survive a little bit longer.

 

If your moving, it multiplies the effects of kiting / Mitigation. Add in heals, and it gets multiplied again.

 

The simple fact is, the longer you survive, the more overall damage AND effect on the war zone you will have. If you really wanna stand still and blow one person up, roll a gunslinger, they do more damage then you do. If you wanna win WZ's and top damage charts against good players, Go AS/or some hybrid.

[AcerionAelor]

I acutally go gunnery in PvP and i'm usually within the top 3 of the score board with tons of kills and killing blows. Stacking the dmg resistance to 10% and reactive shield allows me to blaste melee while tanking, and most of the time they fail to interupt my cast. The few that do, i just knock back get 2 to 3 shots of grave rounds and start kitting and getting off more grav rounds and HIB between the two knock backs. Sin's can't really back stab you since you auto turn to face them when casting grave rounds and plasma grenades.

[LordKivlov]

Charged bolt shouldn't even be on your bar. If your gunnery, Grav completely replaced Charged Bolt. There is no trade off with that. Additionally, HIB refunds 1 ammo in the AS tree, so it's the EXACT same thing.

 

You aren't required to use Plasma Cell either.

 

 

 

Again, were disregarding the baddie effect. How do you think rated Huttball is gonna be played? Lots of people passing, and cooldowns such as Force Speed. You think Gunnery is gonna be able to get ANY damage in on that?

 

As for Hammer Shot, whats wrong with that? Generally speaking, Hammer Shot does comparable damage to a Charged Bolt, especially with the AS talent that upgrades it.

 

 

 

That's not how damage works. If your standing still, you make yourself an easier target. If 2 people jump on you and you continue to try and spam grav/Full Auto, you have ZERO chance to do anything.

 

If you move around, your mitigating damage and CC just by kiting. That's the entire point of mobility.

 

Now you add in Cooldown factors, Shield, Knockback, etc. If your standing still, it helps you survive a little bit longer.

 

If your moving, it multiplies the effects of kiting / Mitigation. Add in heals, and it gets multiplied again.

 

The simple fact is, the longer you survive, the more overall damage AND effect on the war zone you will have. If you really wanna stand still and blow one person up, roll a gunslinger, they do more damage then you do. If you wanna win WZ's and top damage charts against good players, Go AS/or some hybrid.

It isn't on my bar, I only brought it up because unless you hybrid, AS doesn't have Grav Round and people throw charged bolts into their rotation. I disagree, however, that charged bolt does comparable damage to hammershot. If you count in the proc effects from hammershotting and the ability to run around (don't jump because it slows you down roughly 5-10% as does changing directions with anything but free look) twhile you're being attacked, I guess you could say it does.

 

Just looking at the numbers, it just doesn't feel worth it to me since there is a lot of situations that I can sit behind something or out of sight and blast people. If I get a melee on me, then they're going to run me into CC immunity pretty quickly and interupt my **** with kicks for a little bit, but with guard on me and reactive shield, I can either ignore them or **** in their mouth and then get back to killing healers.

 

However, I agree with huttball. It's an entirely different type of game you have to play with commando compared to the other two.

[Kenmuir]

That's not how damage works. If your standing still, you make yourself an easier target. If 2 people jump on you and you continue to try and spam grav/Full Auto, you have ZERO chance to do anything.

 

If you move around, your mitigating damage and CC just by kiting. That's the entire point of mobility.

 

Now you add in Cooldown factors, Shield, Knockback, etc. If your standing still, it helps you survive a little bit longer.

 

If your moving, it multiplies the effects of kiting / Mitigation. Add in heals, and it gets multiplied again.

 

The simple fact is, the longer you survive, the more overall damage AND effect on the war zone you will have. If you really wanna stand still and blow one person up, roll a gunslinger, they do more damage then you do. If you wanna win WZ's and top damage charts against good players, Go AS/or some hybrid.

 

You say that like Gunnery doesn't have the same abilities. You still kite with Gunnery, it isn't just standing around facetanking while just spamming grav/full auto. How is AS more mobile? Assualt Plastique is the same as sticky Grenade, Demo round is the same as Inc round, but can have a 25% damage buff, Grav round is better than charged bolts, Gunnery full auto is like 75% more damage than AS full auto, Gunnery HIB is better than AS HIB. AS isn't more mobile than Gunnery, if it is you are doing it wrong and not dealing as much damage as you can.

[xPrTx]

You say that like Gunnery doesn't have the same abilities. You still kite with Gunnery, it isn't just standing around facetanking while just spamming grav/full auto. How is AS more mobile? Assualt Plastique is the same as sticky Grenade, Demo round is the same as Inc round, but can have a 25% damage buff, Grav round is better than charged bolts, Gunnery full auto is like 75% more damage than AS full auto, Gunnery HIB is better than AS HIB. AS isn't more mobile than Gunnery, if it is you are doing it wrong and not dealing as much damage as you can.

 

I wrote up a response to each of your points. Then I got the the bolded part. At which point I deleted everything realizing that you weren't worth the time or effort.

 

If you think, even for 1 second, that Gunnery HIB is better in ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM, then AS, you clearly haven't even looked at the tree.

 

 

If I had to guess, I would suspect your aren't even level 30 yet. Leave the Tree Discussion to people who have reached level 50, and played both tree's, k?

[Kenmuir]

I wrote up a response to each of your points. Then I got the the bolded part. At which point I deleted everything realizing that you weren't worth the time or effort.

 

If you think, even for 1 second, that Gunnery HIB is better in ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM, then AS, you clearly haven't even looked at the tree.

 

 

If I had to guess, I would suspect your aren't even level 30 yet. Leave the Tree Discussion to people who have reached level 50, and played both tree's, k?

 

You really proved your point there with all of your math and such.

 

AS:

High Friction Bolts: 30% armor pen

Rain of Fire: Conditional 9% damage on burning targets

Assault Trooper: 30% extra crit damage

Ionic Accelorator: Full Auto(60%)/CB(30%) to reset HIB Cooldown

 

Gunnery

Armor Piercing Cell: 35% armor penetration

Grav Round x 5 : 20 % armor reduction

Charged Barrel: 30% Damage buff after 5 Grav rounds

 

More comparable than you let on. The only real edge that AS would have over on Gunnery on HIB would be the cooldown reset, but considering you completely missed my point on that. My point was that you in no meaningful way have more mobility with AS than Gunnery especially since the one ability that is even comparable between the two requires you to spam a lot of Charged Bolts and Full auto, both channeled abilities which would be counter to the point that you can deal more damage while retaining more movement.

 

Math:

Assualt:

Assuming you hit your target with Incid Round to get the burn effect going, then hit with HIB to get the bonus damage from burning and the ammo reduction. You have to remain stationary for 0 seconds.

Damage : Inc Round + HIB

Gunnery:

Start with grav round into HIB. you have to remain stationary for 1.5 seconds.

Damage : Grav round + HIB

 

 

Gunnery:

The next part for this is easy to figure out.

Spam Full Auto/Grav round/Demo round until HIB cooldown is finished.

 

Assualt: Somewhat more difficult, but we can look at the average amount of times the cooldown is reset over a 15s duration to compare the potential damage of AS to a fully buffed Gunnery HIB that will be available after it's cooldown is up.

Full auto: 3s channel, 15second cooldown 60% chance to reset.

Charged Bolts: 1.5s cast, 0s cooldown, 30% chance to reset.

Charged Bolt chance to reset after two casts is 51%, so it's always better to cast Full auto when it's off cooldown than spam CB.

over a 13.5 period(15s-1.5s gcd) you will get 1 full auto and 6.66666 CBs.

Now, each time you get the cooldown reset you lose on of the CB casts which is replaced by a HIB, which is a small dps loss, but gives you mobility because of it's an instant cast ability.

For a damage comparison, one of the HIB resets that you get is basically off set by the cast of demo round for Gunnery.

 

The average number of resets you will get during the 6 CBs is a little more than 1, so the question becomes does 1.3ish HIB deal more damage than the one cast of HIB from Gunnery at the end of the 15seconds? I would say no, due to the high level of armor pen that Gunnery will have over AS and the fact that you can also put an instacast Demo round in there meaning you would have roughly the same amount of mobility. Also you have to take into account the amount of extra damage you will deal on all of your other abilities, especially Full Auto.

 

All in all, the mobility gain of AS is roughly one instant cast spell over a 1.5s cast every 15ish seconds.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Kenmuir

[xPrTx]

I stopped reading when you counted 5 Grav Rounds before HIB.

 

Do you seriously think, that your EVER going to get 5 grav rounds on a target consistently enough to call it "math".

 

If your gonna try and use math to disprove my theory of AS, then at least use REALISTIC math and I will be glad to smash it.

 

 

Lets put it this way.

 

1: I could be in Armor Pen Cell as well.

2: Your almost never going to have 5 charged barrell's / grav rounds when your

HIB'ing.

 

If you cut your barrel and grave rounds damage in half, and eliminate Armor Pen, you just cut that "comparable" damage, by what, 60%? It's not comparable anymore now is it?

Edited December 24, 2011 by xPrTx

[Fight]

I stopped reading when you counted 5 Grav Rounds before HIB.

 

Do you seriously think, that your EVER going to get 5 grav rounds on a target consistently enough to call it "math".

 

If your gonna try and use math to disprove my theory of AS, then at least use REALISTIC math and I will be glad to smash it.

 

 

Lets put it this way.

 

1: I could be in Armor Pen Cell as well.

2: Your almost never going to have 5 charged barrell's / grav rounds when your

HIB'ing.

 

If you cut your barrel and grave rounds damage in half, and eliminate Armor Pen, you just cut that "comparable" damage, by what, 60%? It's not comparable anymore now is it?

 

I stopped reading when you decided that your opinion is the only one and "smash" constructive criticism aside leaving you the king of the sandbox.

 

Why create a thread if you are COMPLETELY closed to outside opinion on any matter? For the sake of the rest of us here to learn and discuss keep this to yourself, its not like anything said here will change your draconian view of your divine right to dictate to us.

 

Have a wonderful Christmas!

[Kenmuir]

I stopped reading when you counted 5 Grav Rounds before HIB.

 

It's very discourteous to ask for a discussion and not even read what the people presenting another point of view are saying.

 

Do you seriously think, that your EVER going to get 5 grav rounds on a target consistently enough to call it "math".

 

If your gonna try and use math to disprove my theory of AS, then at least use REALISTIC math and I will be glad to smash it.

 

You missed my point. I was countering the fact that you have more mobility while using AS spec because in order to get a "significant" improvement in movement(in this "best" case scenario it's trading a 1.5s cast time for an instacast spell every 15seconds) you have to spend a large amount of time standing still spamming cast time abilities. Both AS and Gunnery have the same amount of instacast spells and cast time spells.

 

 

 

Lets put it this way.

 

1: I could be in Armor Pen Cell as well.

 

Yes, you could waste roughly ~15 talent points, but something tells me that just puts you even further behind Gunnery.

 

 

2: Your almost never going to have 5 charged barrell's / grav rounds when your

HIB'ing.

 

 

I realize that, the point I would make is that the cooldown reset on Charged Bolts and the damage increase from Charged Barrel on Grav round is roughly the same per cast. So it's a moot point, except for the fact that it requires only two casts of grav round every 15seconds to beat out the damage buff from Rain of Fire and that doesn't include the armor reduction associated with Grav round. So if you don't get a cooldown reset Gunnery would always win out. I find it hard to believe that you couldn't cast two 1.5second abilities every 15seconds.

 

 

If you cut your barrel and grave rounds damage in half, and eliminate Armor Pen, you just cut that "comparable" damage, by what, 60%? It's not comparable anymore now is it?

 

Not even sure what you are trying to say here. If you cut Charged Barrel and Grav round's damage in half you would also have to cut Charged Bolt's and Ionic Accelerator's damage in half, due to them having similar numbers. You can eliminate the armor pen from Armor Piercing Cell, but you can't eliminate the armor reduction from Gravity vortex. And you also make ~15 of your talent points useless or half as effective.

 

 

I was going to do my best job at a very good theorycraft of damage output which would also include the ammo costs of both builds, but if this is the kind of response I'm going to be getting, I think I'm going to wait until after the holidays.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Kenmuir

[xPrTx]

It's very discourteous to ask for a discussion and not even read what the people presenting another point of view are saying.

 

Don't get me wrong, I want a discussion. But if were gonna be in magical christmas land where your always gonna have your procs/cooldowns, that's not a discussion.

 

 

You missed my point. I was countering the fact that you have more mobility while using AS spec because in order to get a "significant" improvement in movement(in this "best" case scenario it's trading a 1.5s cast time for an instacast spell every 15seconds) you have to spend a large amount of time standing still spamming cast time abilities. Both AS and Gunnery have the same amount of instacast spells and cast time spells.

 

AS is almost entirely instant cast. Gunnery is almost entirely 1.5 Cast times.

 

Gunnery spams Grav Round / Full Auto and Demo on x5 Grav right? That means they have 1 Instant Cast spell, on a 15 second cooldown.

 

The rest of the time, Grav Round and Full auto is being cast for your damage rotation, for the most part anyway. That means you will likely Do the following:

 

Grav Round, Grav Round, Full Auto, Grav Round, Demo Round, HIB.

 

1.5 + 1.5 + 3 + 1.5 = 7.5 seconds your standing still. Only at the end you get to move. Even if you switch up the rotation, for whatever reason, your standing still for 7.5 out of 10.5 seconds. This is ofcourse pretty standard, and not including procs which would actually hurt your movement more while AS procs don't do that. Were not gonna count them though.

 

AS Runs some combination of Full Auto, Inc Round, Assault Plastique, Hammer Shots, and HIB. Of which, only 3 seconds Standing still. I actually never use Charged Bolts in a situation where I don't have complete control.

 

3 out of 7.5 is 40% or so. 7.5 out of 7.5 is 100%.

 

Which one stands still more again?

 

 

Yes, you could waste roughly ~15 talent points, but something tells me that just puts you even further behind Gunnery.

 

You only actually lose like 5 points, and you have to progress up anyway. Probally not a good idea, but plausible.

 

 

 

I realize that, the point I would make is that the cooldown reset on Charged Bolts and the damage increase from Charged Barrel on Grav round is roughly the same per cast. So it's a moot point, except for the fact that it requires only two casts of grav round every 15seconds to beat out the damage buff from Rain of Fire and that doesn't include the armor reduction associated with Grav round. So if you don't get a cooldown reset Gunnery would always win out. I find it hard to believe that you couldn't cast two 1.5second abilities every 15seconds.

 

Again, I do not use Charged Bolt's unless im in complete control of the situation.

 

 

 

 

Not even sure what you are trying to say here. If you cut Charged Barrel and Grav round's damage in half you would also have to cut Charged Bolt's and Ionic Accelerator's damage in half, due to them having similar numbers. You can eliminate the armor pen from Armor Piercing Cell, but you can't eliminate the armor reduction from Gravity vortex. And you also make ~15 of your talent points useless or half as effective.

 

I was getting at the fact that over a entire Warzone, you might have Charged Barrel and Grav Round's at 2.5 stacks on average. You were calculating from 5 stacks constantly which isn't realistic. Armor reduction actually hurts your Armor Piercing Cell. You realize that right?

 

100 armor - 5 Grav Rounds = 80 armor. 35% penetration = 52 total armor, or a 48% reduction.

 

100 armor 35 % Penetration = 65 armor, or a 35% reduction.

 

Is it really worth 2.5 cast's of Grav Rounds for a 13% additional reduction?

 

I mean, that's 3.75 seconds to get 13% more damage on just physical damage stuff. Don't see the point.

 

 

I was going to do my best job at a very good theorycraft of damage output which would also include the ammo costs of both builds, but if this is the kind of response I'm going to be getting, I think I'm going to wait until after the holidays.

 

Ammo Costs are always going to benefit AS with free and +1 talents. If Gunnery can stand still and be a friggen turret, of course its gonna win. But that's never gonna happen against good players.

[LordKivlov]

 

I was getting at the fact that over a entire Warzone, you might have Charged Barrel and Grav Round's at 2.5 stacks on average. You were calculating from 5 stacks constantly which isn't realistic. Armor reduction actually hurts your Armor Piercing Cell. You realize that right?

 

100 armor - 5 Grav Rounds = 80 armor. 35% penetration = 52 total armor, or a 48% reduction.

 

100 armor 35 % Penetration = 65 armor, or a 35% reduction.

 

Is it really worth 2.5 cast's of Grav Rounds for a 13% additional reduction?

 

I mean, that's 3.75 seconds to get 13% more damage on just physical damage stuff. Don't see the point.

 

 

 

 

Ammo Costs are always going to benefit AS with free and +1 talents. If Gunnery can stand still and be a friggen turret, of course its gonna win. But that's never gonna happen against good players.

It increases 35% off your current armor penetration meaning without grav round up, it's going to do diddily squat. In general, your target will have at least 2, probably 4 and definitely 5 if they stop moving to cast something, grav rounds on them. The HIB proc can be a little more fluctual but it's usually at 5 by the time its CD has expired.

 

If you aren't using charged bolts, then what are you doing? If you get hit, full auto isn't worth the ammo cost for the damage it deals, especially so since it lacks the 33% damage increase from Gunnery. You're running around hammershotting and incendiary rounding people I guess? Not much damage is going to come from that unless you're tab targeting and putting it on everyone, and then when you do that you're only really padding your damage numbers since even a half-way retarded healer can handle that small amount of damage on multiple people.

 

However, I disagree that it will never happen against good players. Your role is to be a turret. If you position yourself well then they have a choice to either flee the area which they'll get *******ked by teammates on the way out, change targets to you to get you out of there in which case you can pop your shield and knockbacks to help defend yourself while your team kills them since you aren't going to be doing much damage with either spec with multiple melee on you with stuns and interupts. The last option is they just eat it which in which a lot of cases they end up doing this since there are other priority targets like healers.

 

Now if you want to talk about a straight up duel spec, then yes, go AS because all of the melee classes will poop in your mouth if you try to fight them 1v1 with Grav Rounds. All you can hope to do vs them is keep them snared and DoTed while you dance around like a fairy until one of you dies.

Edited December 25, 2011 by LordKivlov

[xPrTx]

It increases 35% off your current armor penetration meaning without grav round up, it's going to do diddily squat. In general, your target will have at least 2, probably 4 and definitely 5 if they stop moving to cast something, grav rounds on them. The HIB proc can be a little more fluctual but it's usually at 5 by the time its CD has expired.

 

That is just.... utterly wrong. You think one of your stances, isn't active, unless you hit them with a grav round? Not quite sure how you came to that conclusion, but no, thats way wrong.

 

If you aren't using charged bolts, then what are you doing? If you get hit, full auto isn't worth the ammo cost for the damage it deals, especially so since it lacks the 33% damage increase from Gunnery. You're running around hammershotting and incendiary rounding people I guess? Not much damage is going to come from that unless you're tab targeting and putting it on everyone, and then when you do that you're only really padding your damage numbers since even a half-way retarded healer can handle that small amount of damage on multiple people.

 

I use Charged bolts in situations where I have control. Hammer shot is doing the same damage as Charged bolt, instantly, without standing still, proccing Plasma cell etc. It's actually alot better then people give it credit for. Will it alone do more damage then grav round stacking? No, never. But it gives me versatility.

 

However, I disagree that it will never happen against good players. Your role is to be a turret. If you position yourself well then they have a choice to either flee the area which they'll get *******ked by teammates on the way out, change targets to you to get you out of there in which case you can pop your shield and knockbacks to help defend yourself while your team kills them since you aren't going to be doing much damage with either spec with multiple melee on you with stuns and interupts. The last option is they just eat it which in which a lot of cases they end up doing this since there are other priority targets like healers.

 

No, your role is to be Tanky DPS. If your sitting in the back, part of that role is naturally removed.

 

If you get targeted by anyone, your other half gets removed.

 

Lets be clear guys, I am certainly not saying that AS is gonna out damage Gunnery. When it comes to the objectives in WZ's currently, I think AS brings more to the table, and against high skill players, will do more damage and contribute more to the objective.

 

I played gunnery, I know how stupid damage we do. If you ask me what class I would honostly target first, guess what my answer is.

[LordKivlov]

Whoops. I'm a derp, misread the ability.

 

Anyways, if our role is to be tanky DPS. We're pretty ill-equiped to do so. The Vanguard is the class that gets the shields and useful defensive abilities. I have no trouble killing Mercenaries, infact they're usually easier to bring down than any other class purely because they mirror myself and use bad damage rotations.

 

I just played a game where the 2nd place damage was an AS Merc. I'll admit it does more damage than I had assumed but it was a game my team was getting absolutely rolled, 3 cap on alderaan. For the short periods I was alive, I still out damaged despite dying way more often. Still doesn't seem worth it to lose the damage potential you have when you get ignored long enough to cast more than a couple grav rounds.

[Kenmuir]

Don't get me wrong, I want a discussion. But if were gonna be in magical christmas land where your always gonna have your procs/cooldowns, that's not a discussion.

 

 

Hence the statement that I was comparing "best" case scenarios.

 

AS is almost entirely instant cast. Gunnery is almost entirely 1.5 Cast times.

 

Nope.

Sticky Grenade - Assault Plastique

Full Auto - Full auto

Grav Round - charged Bolts

Demo Round - Inc Round

HIB - HIB

 

Looks like the same to me.

 

 

Gunnery spams Grav Round / Full Auto and Demo on x5 Grav right? That means they have 1 Instant Cast spell, on a 15 second cooldown.

 

Not really sure if you are just ignorant of how Gunnery works in a pvp environment or you are deliberately misconstruing how the spec is played.

 

 

 

The rest of the time, Grav Round and Full auto is being cast for your damage rotation, for the most part anyway. That means you will likely Do the following:

 

Grav Round, Grav Round, Full Auto, Grav Round, Demo Round, HIB.

 

1.5 + 1.5 + 3 + 1.5 = 7.5 seconds your standing still. Only at the end you get to move. Even if you switch up the rotation, for whatever reason, your standing still for 7.5 out of 10.5 seconds. This is ofcourse pretty standard, and not including procs which would actually hurt your movement more while AS procs don't do that. Were not gonna count them though.

 

 

In a PvE situation what you said is mostly correct except for there being a priority system not a strict rotation.

 

A better opening for Gunnery is usually Sticky Grenade -> Grav Round -> Demo Round -> HIB. Only one of those abilities is a cast time spell.

 

AS Runs some combination of Full Auto, Inc Round, Assault Plastique, Hammer Shots, and HIB. Of which, only 3 seconds Standing still.

 

 

Again, you are forgetting that Gunnery has the same abilities or an equivalent.

 

I actually never use Charged Bolts in a situation where I don't have complete control.

 

 

 

The same could be said about Grav Round.

 

You only actually lose like 5 points, and you have to progress up anyway. Probally not a good idea, but plausible.

 

 

 

You might want to count again, but I'll be nice and do it for you:

Superheated Plasma - 3 points

Sweltering Heat - 2 points

High Friction Bolts - 2 points

Rain of Fire - 3 points

Assault Trooper - 2 points

Burnout - 3 points

 

Adds up to 15 talent points that are less effective if you switch to Armor Piercing Cell with an AS spec.

 

 

 

Again, I do not use Charged Bolt's unless im in complete control of the situation.

 

 

 

What do you use that is more effective or can't be done with Gunnery? Just a reminder that Armor Piercing Cell beats out Rain of Fire at about 17% damage reduction on your target.

 

 

 

I was getting at the fact that over a entire Warzone, you might have Charged Barrel and Grav Round's at 2.5 stacks on average. You were calculating from 5 stacks constantly which isn't realistic.

 

 

Hence the term best case scenario.

 

 

Armor reduction actually hurts your Armor Piercing Cell. You realize that right?

 

100 armor - 5 Grav Rounds = 80 armor. 35% penetration = 52 total armor, or a 48% reduction.

 

100 armor 35 % Penetration = 65 armor, or a 35% reduction.

 

Is it really worth 2.5 cast's of Grav Rounds for a 13% additional reduction?

 

I mean, that's 3.75 seconds to get 13% more damage on just physical damage stuff. Don't see the point.

 

Considering Grav round does more than just reduce armor, it also provides a damage reduction, buff to HIB, and buff to Demo Round, and it's also my go to ability considering how efficient it is with ammo I would have to say that it is worth it.

 

You wouldn't spend 3.75 seconds to get 13% more damage on every ability you use except for Plasma Cell, Plasma Grenade, Incendiary Round, and Pulse Cannon?

 

 

 

Ammo Costs are always going to benefit AS with free and +1 talents.

 

 

Might want to look at that talent again. It only effects HIB at a 30% chance on charged bolts, which you said you dont use very much, and 60% Full auto, which has a 15second cooldown. While the Gunnery ammo talent is 1 cell every time you crit with Demo Round, Grav Round, Full auto. So I would be hesitant to say AS will always win out.

 

 

 

If Gunnery can stand still and be a friggen turret, of course its gonna win. But that's never gonna happen against good players.

 

The problem with AS is that even with movement Gunnery seems to do very comparable damage, maybe even better. I admit I have yet to do the full theorycraft on this yet, but if Gunnery >>>>> AS when standing still and AS is comparable to Gunnery on the move, it would make sense that Gunnery is the superior spec. And we haven't even begun to discuss the better CC options in Gunnery compared to AS.

[danielhol]

Some of you pvp newbs talk like you're the only one on the field.

 

Look, ANYONE is going to die if they get focused. IF you arent a total DERP and use the 30m range you was givin, you will last much longer, but if you choose to be in the pocket, expect to die. Stop talking liek everyone is going to focus fire YOU.

 

Im 27, i have no problems as gunney, i got enough CC, and WOW ever hear of using terrain? and think before you use your knock back.

 

use tactics not math.

[Kenmuir]

 

 

I use Charged bolts in situations where I have control. Hammer shot is doing the same damage as Charged bolt, instantly, without standing still, proccing Plasma cell etc. It's actually alot better then people give it credit for. Will it alone do more damage then grav round stacking? No, never. But it gives me versatility.

 

 

That's impossible, simply impossible for Hammer Shot to deal more damage than Charged Bolts. Hammer Shot's damage is the same as your weapon damage, while Charged Bolts scales better than 1:1 on weapon damage, includes ranged bonus damage, and has a base damage. There is no possible way for Hammer Shot to deal the same damage as Charged Bolts.