Deception / Infiltration

[Atiris]

You're just gambling with opening like that. If duplicity doesn't proc what are you going to do..

 

Yeah you just wasted a whole lot of force on air.

 

Too risky, not an acceptable opener.

 

I agree with Evolixe here. Typically the way I open is: Recklessnes -> Discharge -> Shock -> Maul (If Duplicity is up) -> Voltaic Slash -> Low Slash -> Maul

 

I try not to Low Slash/ Maul without my first duplicity proc so that i get the best out of the separate rate limits between Duplicity and Expose Weakness. I do not use Spike, but rather wait to use it either for another duplicity proc, interrupt a cast, or added damage bonus when I have three Static Charges. If I do implement Spike into the rotation, I do so before activating Recklessness since for some reason, Spike actually eats up a Recklessness charge.

[ishbindeinvater]

I am sorry, my friend, but I disagree with the fact that we do not have good sustain damage. The biggest thing people fail to acknowledge is the fact that Assassins are entirely proc dependent and entirely situational. Compare the amount of utility skills we possess compared to other classes; spike, force stun, low slash, jolt, whirlwind, overload. Combine that with our defensive skills such as force shroud, cloak, blackout, saber shield, sprint, and there are only a few, if any, classes that share the same amount of utility as we do.

 

We have one of the strongest bursts in the game, but even our sustained damage is relatively good. Voltaic Slash can crit for 1.5k - 3k, maul gets duplicity every fifteen seconds and another chance at duplicity on a separate 10 second rate limit through impose weakness. If you time your low slash or spike, you can get two duplicity procs back to back which can lead to devastating results. Combine that with the fact that you can follow it with a reduced 50% shock and you're keeping some much needed pressure on your opponents.

 

However, this is just assuming your target is standing still like a dummy, which we know he is not. Combine these procs with your offensive and defensive utility skills and you can pretty much lockdown your opponent unless you do not get procs when you need them, someone else comes and interferes, or you're fighting enemies wearing heavy armor.

 

Since my return, I hardly experienced any issues with my sustain damage or my ability to 1v1 or even 1v2 people at times. I can add the pressure when i need to, get away when I need to and burst when I need to. It's all situational. I just need to think like an Assassin and play like an Assassin.

 

i know that we have a lot of tools to add pressure, but our sustained damage isnt THAT good. Its not terrible, but you see the difference in PvE. You can keep up high damage aslong you got blackout and force cloak. Then you really lose your pressure.

[JackNader]

The one thing that is pretty clear from all these post is that nobody is paying enough attention to how different abilities interact with their force pool during the opening phase. I implore every single one of you to go to a warzone dummy, pull up mox parser and test various different openings. Pay careful attention to your force pool, what you're casting and when.

 

Discharge, spike and duplicity maul are really good ways of regenerating your force. Using them as an opener while you have dark embrace up will truncate your force pool. ideally, you want to dump a large amount of force in the first attack and then fall back on these to push your force back up close to 100.

 

Now what are you gaining from using them first? A more consistent open in terms of damage. Consistent does not mean higher or better. It means more stable damage. You will have higher opening damage on average but lower over the long term due to force loss.

 

What are you losing? Maximum theoretical damage over long fights and the option to use those abilities to regain your force.

 

What you start with affects what abilities you can use next and your end force pool-

 

eg.

 

*Note that when I use the phrase "maximum theoretical damage" in the below descriptions, It refers only to this sample size of 3 globals.

 

Maul - duplicity - discharge - shock

(Slightly less than maximum theoretical damage rotation. This is because of the lack of 9% crit on melee attacks. Net force expenditure = 100 - 50 - 13 - 20 - 17 + 10 + 18 + 18 + 18 = 64

 

Maul - discharge - duplicity - shock

(Same as above but with slightly higher maximum theoretical damage)

 

Maul - discharge - shock - duplicity

(Same potential damage as above but with slightly worse force management as shock now costs 28 force instead of 17)

 

 

Maul - discharge - voltaic - duplicity

{lower damage output with force regeneration slightly worse than the first example)

 

Maul - discharge - voltaic - shock

(Lowest damage output but great force recovery.)

 

 

Discharge - maul - duplicity - shock

(Highest maximum damage potential with poorer force regeneration than the first example due to force truncation.)

 

Discharge - duplicity - maul - shock

(Highest maximum damage potential with poorer force regeneration than above. There is more force truncation in this example)

 

Discharge - maul - shock - duplicity

(Highest maximum damage with horrendous force regeneration due to truncation and a 28 force cost shock)

 

 

Discharge - duplicity- voltaic - shock

(much less maximum burst damage with extremely good force management. You'll be slightly less than 100 force after shock is cast)

 

Discharge - voltaic - duplicity - shock

(Basically identical to above in terms of burst and force management)

 

Discharge - shock - duplicity - voltaic

(Same damage as above but finishing with less force)

 

It should be obvious by now that the order in which you use your abilities is extremely important. Opening with maul or discharge are both perfectly valid.

 

Discharge will give you the highest theoretical damage possible because it will proc the 9% crit. The downside is that If your maul does not proc on discharge, your force or damage (whichever you choose) will go out the window very quickly.

 

Opening with maul will give you slightly lower maximum damage. The plus side is that it will lead to more options. You get 2 chances to proc maul before your force pool begins to suffer.

Edited November 14, 2013 by JackNader

[IInox]

yes and if u use Spike you can have 2 Maul 1 with crit bonus and enemy knock backed.

 

man Sry but this isn't pve. you can't do these calculations. no points.

 

and trust me I have already done them for pve.

 

why do u think that players whine about stun lock of our class? cause we can kill a player while he is stunned

[Evolixe]

If you straight up open with a normal maul you're going to be down at least 20 force from what you should be. In the absolute best case scenario... that's not how you want to open. The affiliated damage doesn't really matter.

[ishbindeinvater]

i end this iscussion now:

 

when you are a bad player all your math s worthless :-)

[Vangalius]

I find that if I don't open with Spike, there's a good chance I will lose the opportunity to use the procc'd Maul (assuming it even happens), because the kiting will begin immediately if they are good. If they're not good, well, then ... the finer points of the opener aren't nearly as important.

 

I have also been leaning more lately to not discharging via Reck right after opening, but building 3 stacks then doing Discharge + Discharge. So many people are expecting massive upfront burst when an Assassin opens on them that it's easier to apply it a little into the fight, i.e. they have already used some CDs. The added advantage to bursting when they are < 100% is that it's more likely to bring them into execute range.

 

But really, opener in PvP has to remain flexible. Sometimes if someone is low just Reck + Discharge + Shock while running towards them for an execute is more advantageous then any melee opening which has to be delayed while closing the gap and during which they may get healed.

[Philelectric]

Evoxile is right, almost everything the OP said is wrong.

 

No AoEs in infiltration? We might be a SINGLE target BURST dps who knows.

No AoEs in balance? What about force in balance?

No AoEs in kinetic? We might be a tank who needs to RECEIVE damage who knows.

 

I arenas, I am often TOP or 2nd damage. Unless there is a tank, I'm also very close to top if not top in the protection stat. I can also use force potency--> Force breach on a target---> tab target the casting healer and low slash, go back to the target my team is focusing--> project and then use the EXTRA burst I got from low slashing the healer.

I'm not lossing any burst potential and I am even increasing the burst potencial.

 

We are one of the lowest if not the lowest substained dps class,indeed. But we can control our burst and its even better then having a great substained dps in arenas.

 

By controling the burst, we can avoid the ennemy defensive CDs. For exemple, A carnage mara as gore up. He NEEDS to burst during that phase. An infiltration shadow can use low slash when he wants and can use force potency when he wants to control the burst.

 

Phase walk might not be a very good ability,but we can use it to control the arenas.

 

Orbital station, your team decide to fight on the catwalk. You put phase walk up there. Knockdown a key target, 1v1 him on the ground and possibly kill him then you phase walk up to get back in the main battle. Its now 4v3. If the guy you knockdown get support, CC them or not, its your choice. But you should phase walk up and fight in a 4v2 for several seconds.

 

Now, lets say one of your teammate is knocked down, you can jump down to support. If its 2v2 and you win, gg you phase back to the top to insta 3v2 till the other guy arrive to 4v2 and win. If you loose the 2v2 on the ground, phase walk up so its 3v2 for several seconds and maybe kill 1 to equalize the field.

 

Tattoine. There is several locations where you can put phase walk to avoid any burst without going to far from the fight. I wont tell the locations because its easy to figure them.

 

Corelia.Ditto Tattoine plus the possibility to port back to the elevated ground to push/kill the ennemy ranged dps casting from above.

 

 

On the leveling side, in my green leveling gear, I was alway one shotting 80% of the trash mobs. Leveling as infiltration is a one shot fest.

 

I cant talk about operations since im not doing them.

 

(sorry for my bad english)

Edited November 20, 2013 by Philelectric

[Cinnagar]

The one thing that is pretty clear from all these post is that nobody is paying enough attention to how different abilities interact with their force pool during the opening phase. I implore every single one of you to go to a warzone dummy, pull up mox parser and test various different openings. Pay careful attention to your force pool, what you're casting and when.

 

The reply to this has already been expressed earlier in the thread. For PvE you're correct - the idea of maximizing your resource regeneration should yield maximum dps. But PvP is different. People panic in PvP. Spiking a healer out of stealth might cause him to blow his escape, leaving him vulnerable to a mezz a little later. The problem deception faces in arena is game design: Sin has tremendous control but the game is built around damage. Adding damage, figuring out maximum damage isn't the issue - finding a team that can execute a strategy to allow deceptions superior control to win the match is the issue.

 

When more than just op/scoundrel heals are "good" in arena, I think the meta will shift from omgwtfbbqdamage to a game where control is more important. How BW achieves that , I cannot even begin to guess.

[JP_Legatus]

Infiltration / Deception

 

Electric ambush is one of 2 reasons why I stopped playing deception. I personally feel that the electric ambush provides deception with too much burst potential. Keep in mind that this talent can be further exploited via combat exit, granting a total of 6 +60% crit force attacks over an extremely short period of time.

 

Agreed, but it goes deeper than just that.

In regs you are quite often able to chain kills together so that you do the following:

Open with discharge

Shock

maul procs so let off a maul

Assassinate

 

Now 6s or less after you attacked the target is dead. Often regstar bads will not be throwing aoe or popping cooldowns or taunts, so after you kill the target you are out of combat. You could re-stealth, but it's not necessary, you've already gotten your recklessness reset. So you rinse and repeat this process for the entire wz.

 

The results of this? 30+ killing blows in the same game, averaging 3-4k dps whenever you are attacking someone with your dps on the chart being lowered by downtime when everyone is respawning. IIRC eventually some assassin went on to get 48 in one warzone, which as of the last time I looked is the current world record. It's a bad mechanic imo and shouldn't be allowed to exist.

 

Spike

 

One of my pet hates of the assassin class is the spike ability. The majority of assassins that open on me will ALWAYS use spike. I can understand this to some extent. The ability has a stealth only requirement so naturally one would assume that Bioware intended it to be used as an opener. Unfortunately, most people fail to read its tool tip damage or take into account the force regeneration overlap.

 

All Deception assassins are going to choose the Dark Embrace talent. Dark Embrace provides +50% force regeneration for 6 seconds after exiting stealth. Spike has a 20 force cost. The amount of force regenerated with Dark Embrace procced is 18. If saber conduit procs, the amount of force regenerated can be as high as 28. What this means is that if saber conduit procs, you lose 8 force. A duplicity procced maul is 13 force. Again, wasted force regeneration.

 

The other issue is the amount of damage that spike does. To be an effective opener, spike + a duplicity procced maul should always yield higher damage than any other combination. Other combinations are maul + discharge or maul + a duplicity procced maul. Mathematically, this just isn't the case. So not only do you run the risk of wasting your Dark Embrace but you also do consistently less opening damage. This mean that spike is most effectively used as a re-opener. Re-openings are done when you are literally out of force and you need a low force cost rotation while maintaining pressure on your target.

 

Regarding spike you're technically right, and generally I don't even open with stuns anymore because you are just giving the healer extra time to heal the target or the tank extra time to throw a guard and taunt.

HOWEVER in a 1v1 you would always open with either spike or low slash (apparently low slash is the best option and spike is best used for the re-opener), and that's why people use it. You won't get to use it again later on when you're in combat and it's free damage before the fight actually starts.

 

For pve though... idk, you'd have to measure the lost force against the loss of a maul proc which would be difficult to do, but feel free to run the numbers if you believe your case is correct. Realistically, I think you're going to be over your force cap on your opener in all cases other than opening with a non-procced maul or non-buffed shock, because the force regen is just that high. Did you check your normal opener rotation to see if you're still not overcapped on that as well?

Edited November 22, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[Ottoattack]

The problem with deception is that it is designed to operate in a solo mode. It is always preferable to fight isolated enemies and in isolated situations. In competitive PvP that does not happen often. Arenas you are forced to constantly stay in combat. Same in competitive WZs. As a result, you are relying heavily on duplicity procs and hitting critics on muals and discharge to pose any real threat. Again, same scenario in raid situations.

 

I may also add, the design around constantly stunning the opposition is poor and cheap desgin, that again works perfectly in isolated situations, but no more than a nuisance downgrade in game play with no real damage output. Deception sin can defeat most if not all classes solo, add healers on both sides, and most classes will eventually kill the sin or the his/her healer.

 

BW needs to lower burst damage slightly in favor of large improvement in sustained damage. As the spec currently stands, it is only effective in uncompetitive WZs. The spec is not as bad as many other specs, due to high burst, spammable CCs and reasonable DCDs, but as long as the name of the game is huge burst and weak sustained damage, deception is will never be optimal in PvP and weak in PvE.

 

While not all the assumption of the OP are correct, his/her point view is. On another note who the hell plays gimped madness sorc (madness sin)? Also, for PvE perspective, lethality ops are one of the top parsing classes.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Ottoattack

[mulzii]

When more than just op/scoundrel heals are "good" in arena, I think the meta will shift from omgwtfbbqdamage to a game where control is more important. How BW achieves that , I cannot even begin to guess.

 

Nothing that a few or 10 more new cc's wouldnt fix.

/sacarasm