Removing Pushback

[madtycoon]

Removing Ability Pushback

Talents like Foresight should be changed as followed:

 

• Reduces the pushback suffered while activating healing abilities by 100% and lowers the threat generated by healing abilities by 10%.
  

 

Pushback on core abilities should be removed. The concept was taken from other MMOs. It works in a game like WOW, because it quickly DRs, health doesn't spike as often, casts are much faster and casts have a high reward. It is an unnecessary mechanic in SWTOR pvp.

 

Casting is very slow in this game. Alacrity does not help much. A 1.5 second cast with pushback feels very sluggish when compared to incoming damage. Some specs rely on even slower casts in their rotation. Pushback makes two second casts even more unreasonable. The difficulty of casting has a meager reward when compared to melee abilities and instant casts. If casted abilities rewarded more, then pushback would not be as much of an issue. With the exception of maybe Thundering Blast, this is not the case.

 

How this change affects interrupts

The removal of pushback would make interrupting more important. Casts are prevented by pushback, interrupts and crowd control. Proper crowd control use and interrupts require more thought than simply attacking a target. Players would require a higher level of skill to prevent a cast. This change increases the importance of the interrupting meta game.

 

Removing pushback also makes baiting and fake casting more important. Fake casting occurs when a player preemptively cancels their cast to trick an opponent into using their interrupt. Baiting happens when a player casts an ability with the intention of being interrupted to protect their next, more important cast. These two techniques require a high level of situational awareness. This playstyle should be rewarded, because it can separate caster skill. Removing abiity pushback makes it more important to fake and bait casts.

 

How this change helps balance healers

Removing cast pushback helps balance the structural design of the three healers. Healing commandos (and to a lesser extent sages) are cast reliant. Hopefully this does not change with future balance patches. Healers should have to cast. Players should be able to limit their output with properly timed interrupts.

 

This change buffs the casting aspect of healing. The meta game improves when healing output is reliant on casting. If a healer is successfully getting casts off, then their healing target should live. If a healer isn't getting casts off, their target should die. Hopefully the developers realize this and change scoundrels to be more cast dependent in future patches and strengthen casting

 

The Drawbacks

There are several drawbacks to removing pushback. Certain cast heavy specs are already viable in certain comps. This may overbuff those specs. This is a legitimate fear when any balance changes are made.

 

The removal of pushback also helps encourage players to facetank. SWTOR PvP is very clustered. There isn't much movement or spacing and things like ranging, positioning and kiting can be counter productive. This change does not help with these issues. Kiting and positioning will become less important with this change.

 

Guard added to healers without pushback could also pose a problem. Healing scoundrels would become stronger, if they remain untouched. No one wants that to happen.

Edited November 4, 2013 by madtycoon

[Trephination]

Agreed. I've had similar ideas for a while. I think that certain casts like dark infusion, healing scan, and kolto injection could also use a a slightly shorter cast time (and a slightly smaller output / cost to match).

 

Movement in SWTOR often feels too constrained to have such harsh penalties for casting. You're permanently slowed by 50-70%, constantly rooted without DRs of any kind. Healing as a merc is very sluggish because of this combined with pushback / long casts to interrupt. Sorc is similarly punished, but gets by because of innervate.

 

The only thing that might need to be worked out here is lockouts to go along with interrupts. If we get rid of pushback and lower some cast times, interrupting might need to lock out more than just one ability to actually reward people for stopping a fast cast.

 

I hope this sort of thing is at least being thought about by the devs because merc and sorc healers are a mess.

[Evolixe]

I think you make a fair point and all, but ultimately this would translate to a buff to caster classes.

Which honestly at this point I don't think they need.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Evolixe

[NvrShoutNvr]

I think you make a fair point and all, but ultimately this would translate to a buff to caster classes.

Which honestly at this point I don't think they need.

 

if you think sages are fine, then you either dont play one or havent run into a team who's competent enough to know what an interrupt is.

Edited November 4, 2013 by NvrShoutNvr

[Capt_Beers]

BW already expressed interest in revamping the pushback/interrupt mechanics in the Merc answers thread. What this means exactly is up for debate but they have acknowledged that it's an issue.

 

There is no advantage in casting in this game. All of the hardest hitting abilities (excluding Snipers who have pushback/interrupt immunity) are instant, Heat Seekers, Maul, Smash, Carnage Scream, all the Executes for example. Outside of Thundering Blast I can't think of an ability with a cast time that hits anywhere near as hard as the instants, once again excluding Snipers since they are immune to pushback/interrupts.

 

In the cases of the abilities I mentioned above only Heat Seekers and Carnage Scream require much setup and in the case of Carnage all the set up abilities are instant. To set up Smash you don't even need to be in combat in some cases.

 

Healing is the same way. Operatives have clearly demonstrated having several smaller, almost free heals/HoT's can have a much bigger overall output than mostly cast-time heals. Heals are an interrupt magnet, throw in all the CC's, interrupt lockouts with no punishment for missing, short CD on interrupts, pushback and the free 30m interrupt that is leap and casting can be very difficult especially when compared to results from all instant abilities.

[RyderQuanTy]

I think the inturipts and push back fall in to the kite meta game and the entire meta game need to be look at. I say give sages more escape tools like egress and 3 sec sprint so they can get range and remove the inturipr from knights and give them a 30m aoe intuript. give vg/pt the 30 m stun back . A flat footed knigh could intuript and find cover a sage could escape the melee train and vg/pt can get int range and stop and escape. ttk may go down accros he board since the is more punch counter punch marauder would be stuned less sin so of the stuns would be directed else where ttk may go down with more cat and mouse with a neft to ops heals comeing everyones ttk would stay the same as is but no op heals

[Capt_Beers]

I think the inturipts and push back fall in to the kite meta game and the entire meta game need to be look at. I say give sages more escape tools like egress and 3 sec sprint so they can get range and remove the inturipr from knights and give them a 30m aoe intuript. give vg/pt the 30 m stun back . A flat footed knigh could intuript and find cover a sage could escape the melee train and vg/pt can get int range and stop and escape. ttk may go down accros he board since the is more punch counter punch marauder would be stuned less sin so of the stuns would be directed else where ttk may go down with more cat and mouse with a neft to ops heals comeing everyones ttk would stay the same as is but no op heals

 

My face reading this post

[JediMasterSLC]

I think the inturipts and push back fall in to the kite meta game and the entire meta game need to be look at. I say give sages more escape tools like egress and 3 sec sprint so they can get range and remove the inturipr from knights and give them a 30m aoe intuript. give vg/pt the 30 m stun back . A flat footed knigh could intuript and find cover a sage could escape the melee train and vg/pt can get int range and stop and escape. ttk may go down accros he board since the is more punch counter punch marauder would be stuned less sin so of the stuns would be directed else where ttk may go down with more cat and mouse with a neft to ops heals comeing everyones ttk would stay the same as is but no op heals

 

I have no words. Except maybe "L2english"

[Evolixe]

if you think sages are fine, then you either dont play one or havent run into a team who's competent enough to know what an interrupt is.

 

If sages are the only problem and not the other classes, we are by the way only talking about sage healers, then pushback is not the problem. Hence my statement.

 

Think before you speak please.

[Tankqull]

another option would be to make the small heals castable on the run. they are quite expensive an d thus wont be spammed but being able to move while healing would help both merc and sorcs alot. Edited November 4, 2013 by Tankqull

[BraveSirRobin]

I think the inturipts and push back fall in to the kite meta game and the entire meta game need to be look at. I say give sages more escape tools like egress and 3 sec sprint so they can get range and remove the inturipr from knights and give them a 30m aoe intuript. give vg/pt the 30 m stun back . A flat footed knigh could intuript and find cover a sage could escape the melee train and vg/pt can get int range and stop and escape. ttk may go down accros he board since the is more punch counter punch marauder would be stuned less sin so of the stuns would be directed else where ttk may go down with more cat and mouse with a neft to ops heals comeing everyones ttk would stay the same as is but no op heals

 

My head hurts now.

[madtycoon]

The only thing that might need to be worked out here is lockouts to go along with interrupts. If we get rid of pushback and lower some cast times, interrupting might need to lock out more than just one ability to actually reward people for stopping a fast cast.

 

I hope this sort of thing is at least being thought about by the devs because merc and sorc healers are a mess.

 

I agree. School lockouts should be implemented or at the very least considered. That would be an ideal direction for the developers. It would make interrupting even stronger, but would require more balance changes.

 

Interrupts should also be usable when immunity abilities are active. When a player attempts to interrupt into Mental Alacrity, that player's interrupt should go on cooldown.

 

All interrupts should come with their own debuff as well. It is a lot easier to notice when an agent or merc has used their interrupt, because of the debuff. Some interrupt animations and sounds are easy to notice (a jedi knight's Force Kick for example), but some are unnecessarily difficult to spot. A short debuff makes monitoring interrupts much easier.

[madtycoon]

BW already expressed interest in revamping the pushback/interrupt mechanics in the Merc answers thread. What this means exactly is up for debate but they have acknowledged that it's an issue.

 

That was what had me thinking about the current interrupt and pushback mechanics.