Jedi Shadow - DPS Rotation

[keano]

Curious, so wouldn't the 9% be more prudent to have active? Or is that 3% neglible?

 

I always looked at a permanent 9% armor penetration to be better than a 45% change to proc an additional hit @ 50% of it's damage. Or am misunderstanding the numbers?

 

This is what I'm wondering too, don't forget you have to spend 2 points on trash for the project bonus aswell.

 

So it's 3% armor pen, 6% CS damage & 6% damage on your techniques vs the Upheaval bonus.

[ragamer]

To the OP, depends on the build you use as Infil. With one like this:

 

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/jedi_consular/shadow/#::ce3fe8fe2fe2f5ef2ef7ef7ef14:

 

You try to open (and keep) with this rotation: FB + CS + CS + PR + SS

 

That way you take advantage of the 6 seconds of Respite and by the time you do the SS it's highly likely that Force Synergy (and FW) is up (I'm assuming that your target is looking to some1 else, ofc).

 

On steady combats you will simply not be able to keep this rotation, so learn to interlace Saber strikes strategically for something like:

 

FB+CS+Saber+CS+Saber+PR+SS+Saber

 

The above sequence is optimized for the 12s CD FB and the Columi Stalker 2 pieces bonus... Using Blackout & FC on CD has a decay time (Moment at wich you hit 0 energy with any power) of 4.5 minutes. Which is the average tank'n spank fight you will ever find.

 

But the above is just on an optimal situation. On real fights you have to leave room for errors. The logic is is that you ALWAYS have to have energy for FB... If you are low, use Saber... Always try to do a SS AFTER FB and PR and never do a PR unless you have done 2 CS.

 

On fights with interruptions (Stuns, KB, etc) be sure you are always under 40 energy (And if you can predict the interruption spend your full energy just before them by not using Saber strikes).

 

On fights with "burst phases" (Adds respawning or short vulnerability periods) be sure you are above 80% energy so you can always perform the high burst opening (And reserve some extra for a potential Low Slash, if you actually have to solo a CCable target).

 

Lastly, if you have to break a mazed/slashed/"holyed" target (quite often while soloing). Rember that a Force Potency Mind Crush followed by a SS (If you have the proc from the previous target, you can perform a SS right when MC casting bar ends and before your target faces you again) followed by a FB will give you the hardest hiting opening.

 

I think those are all the tips I can think of, right now.

 

 

EDIT: Forgot to clarify... NEVER use SS without FW proc, it's not just energy saving... You simply do not ignore armor which makes their hits bleh!.

 

EDIT2: With 1.1.2 Spinning Strike will give you 1 charge for PR... Up to you to decide what to do against enemies at 30%... In my case I go with 2/1 PR because I like to keep my Force Synergy up as much as possible.

Edited February 9, 2012 by ragamer

[oddmyth]

I'm still not understanding why you choose to open with Force Breach?

You aren't getting any Exit Strategy procs before the pull, so why open with FB?

 

You are never sitting at 100 Force with CS, CS, Project, FB so its not like you are capping out on Force.

[oddmyth]

This statement is the most misleading information E V E R. Now granted, SS is defintely less effective w/out the proc (about 1/2 the damage it does with the proc), it is by no means 100% inefficient. If what you stated were true, SS would do no damage and be utterly useless.

 

SS without the FW proc will hit for about 2k and cost 50 force.

CS will hit for 2k and cost 25 force and add damage to your next project, and reduce the cost of your next project.

 

Doing the same damage for double the force means its 100% more inefficient use of force to use SS without the FW proc.

 

So semantically speaking, the argument is sound.

[Varcan]

Wow,, this thread makes me a sad panda:(

 

Please listen to Kitru, and a few other sane people...

 

Mind Crush in a Inf rotation...I just picked myself up of the floor from readin that one...

 

Not sure whether to laugh or cry...

[ragamer]

I'm still not understanding why you choose to open with Force Breach?

 

Because even totally unbuffed is the most efficient damage power we have? Specially against average mobs that have 0% resistance?

 

Once you spot your most efficient power per energy point?...

 

...Which power you definitively want to fit as much as possible into a give DPS period?

 

 

The window I balanced the "steady dps" rotation is around 4.5m but...

 

...Choose any dps window... any. The best dps would be to start at 110% energy and finishing at 0% energy right when the window ends...

 

...the question is... Wouldn't you want to be sure that other factor equal, your most efficient attack power was the most often used?

 

This is strictly speaking from efficiency PoV but there is another reasson on why to open like that...

 

...Force Synergy. If you don't open with a force power you are denying the 1st 2 CS the chance to be modified by it... And I think that we agree than on most openings FB is a good candidate as your Force Power.

Edited February 9, 2012 by ragamer

[Kitru]

I'm still not understanding why you choose to open with Force Breach?

You aren't getting any Exit Strategy procs before the pull, so why open with FB?

 

You get the same number of Exit Strategy stacks over time no matter if you open with FB or not. The only difference in effect between delaying FB and using it immediately is in getting less damage over the initial burst phase. Force Breach for Inf is one of the hardest hitting abilities they get (since it's internal damage and mitigated *way* less than all of the kinetic abilities you get otherwise) even without Exit Strategy stacks. Delaying its use from opening, since it hits so hard and the Exit Strategy stacks aren't really a massive increase in damage dealt, is really a question of damage dealt over different discrete intervals: if you only assume a 12 second window of damage dealt, the delay in Force Breach is a wise course of action because you're operating under a time frame that only allows for a single Force Breach to be used; if you operate under a 15-18 second window, the delay isn't worth it since the delay would prevent the second used of Force Breach.

 

In effect, it doesn't really matter whether you open with Force Breach or delay it for a few GCDs (as long as you keep it on CD afterwards). The only difference is in whether you care more about the damage dealt within the first 12 seconds of the first 18 seconds. Beyond that, it's irrelevant.

[oddmyth]

You get the same number of Exit Strategy stacks over time no matter if you open with FB or not. The only difference in effect between delaying FB and using it immediately is in getting less damage over the initial burst phase. Force Breach for Inf is one of the hardest hitting abilities they get (since it's internal damage and mitigated *way* less than all of the kinetic abilities you get otherwise) even without Exit Strategy stacks.

 

I understand what you are saying, however it goes against the ethos of everything else you say on these boards - max damage per force is what we are looking for. FB can hit hard when it crits (Deep Impact makes sure of that), however the average hit of FB isn't any greater than a single CS hit. So its still better to garner that extra couple of ticks of ES to buffer that damage more. CS crits far more than any other attack we have due to Force Synergy and 4 piece PVE Stalkers bonus. So if you are looking to *ensure in the statistical sense* high burst in a short amount of time you would be hitting CS first, not FB.

 

Delaying its use from opening, since it hits so hard and the Exit Strategy stacks aren't really a massive increase in damage dealt, is really a question of damage dealt over different discrete intervals: if you only assume a 12 second window of damage dealt, the delay in Force Breach is a wise course of action because you're operating under a time frame that only allows for a single Force Breach to be used; if you operate under a 15-18 second window, the delay isn't worth it since the delay would prevent the second used of Force Breach.

 

Assuming it does hit that hard. However I agree with the premise.

 

If you assume you aren't taking Misdirection over Security Breach, you will do more damage with more melee uptime than you will with a shortened FB CD. Even being in range 1 GCD earlier can counteract the dps lost from not having Security Breach. The more movement on the fight, the more dps lost to movement.

 

However I digress, that's just another matter of opinion we differ upon.

[oddmyth]

This is strictly speaking from efficiency PoV but there is another reasson on why to open like that...

 

...Force Synergy. If you don't open with a force power you are denying the 1st 2 CS the chance to be modified by it... And I think that we agree than on most openings FB is a good candidate as your Force Power.

 

 

This I can get behind .

[Trexcapades]

How the heck do you tell it procc'd? Do you have to look at that super tiny buff bar??

[DrumDeity]

 

Stealth>Force Breach>Double Strike>Double Strike>Project

 

After that, you simply continue to keep Force Breach on CD, use Shadow Strike whenever Find Weakness is up, and use Project only after 2 Double Strikes (at 40+, replace Double Strike with Clairvoyant Strike). Saber Strike is, of course, used when you don't have the Force to use whatever your trying to use.

 

You never want to use TK Throw since it takes too long to do too little damage, and you're risking even less efficiency if you get hit and pushbacked during the cast. An Infiltration, the only regular force powers you use are Force Breach and Project.

Make sure to layer in Saber Strike every 2 hits for better Force regen

[Daiyukie]

That's a terrible reason, and I'm not even sure your logic is internally consistent. You're claiming that you should use Shadow Strike to break CC because it deals a lot of damage (with Upheaval and no buffs, Project does roughly the same damage as Shadow Strike for less Force, so your situation doesn't even logically apply) and then claim you'll have time to regen the force before attacking.

 

If you want to poke holes in what I'm now calling the "Shadow Strike rule", try to actually find something that makes sense and is internally consistent. Try doing some math. Shotgun attempts to poke holes in what has become a very well founded rule are not gonna work.

 

I use Shadow Strike as an opener because it can proc off itself, if it doesn't I skip the second one and hit Force Breach then Clairvoyant into Project and hopefully hit the second SS as the rock is hanging while I'm hitting Force Potency as well(though now it just flies uber fast so no more of that =[ ).

[Daiyukie]

How the heck do you tell it procc'd? Do you have to look at that super tiny buff bar??

 

Lol. WTS some glasses to this poor guy.

[WoruulKeei]

I use Shadow Strike as an opener because it can proc off itself, if it doesn't I skip the second one and hit Force Breach then Clairvoyant into Project and hopefully hit the second SS as the rock is hanging while I'm hitting Force Potency as well(though now it just flies uber fast so no more of that =[ ).

 

You can also get the proc off of double strike or clairvoyant strike which will do same damage as shadow strike does without its proc, in fact since double strike and clairvoyant strike hit twice with each use you get double the chance to get the proc.

[Nucairion]

while people will probably argue this.

 

this is my rotation for my shadow

 

stealth>spinning kick (to knockdown)>force potency>force breach>blackout (for more force regen)>battle readiness>clairvoyant strike x2. project with both procs up then i use shadow strike with proc and the saber strike if needed or then use us potency and breach when of cooldown

[theblaznee]

I'm curious as well about that Armor Penetration feat from the Kinetic tree.. Right now I'm running with th 6% CS damage, but I could be tempted to try it out..

 

Also Situational Awareness for an Ops specced infiltration shadow seems weird compared to Kinetic Field.. Lots of aoe stuff that KF helps against in those fights I'd think.. more usefull than lower cost in WB, and some extra damage from our shadow stance hardly seems worth it to me.. BUt some numbers on it could be nice..

 

With regards to rotation.. If completely fresh I always open with CS, if I'm carrying some stacks for FB I'll open with that..

 

But basically I'm at CS - CS - Pop blackout and force potency - Project - FB.

 

From then it's simply CS CS Project.. With Saber Strike now and then to keep force up, Force Breach whenever it comes off cooldown. SHadow Strike EVERY TIME the proc pops, and it takes priority over everything else. Once Spinning Strike Opens up, that goes in the rotation as soon as it's ready..

[Kitru]

stealth>spinning kick (to knockdown)>force potency>force breach>blackout (for more force regen)>battle readiness>clairvoyant strike x2. project with both procs up then i use shadow strike with proc and the saber strike if needed or then use us potency and breach when of cooldown

 

I'm not entirely sure about this, but I'm pretty confident that Shadow's Respite doesn't stack with itself. If it doesn't, using Blackout that early on (only 2 GCDs after leaving stealth) is wasting 3 seconds of the buff from your first Shadow's Respite. You probably want to wait until after using your second CS (which, assuming you're using all of your off-GCD abilities while your GCD is coming around, is your 4th GCD) before activating Blackout. The rest of it looks like a sounds rotation/priority.

[Kitru]

I'm curious as well about that Armor Penetration feat from the Kinetic tree.. Right now I'm running with th 6% CS damage, but I could be tempted to try it out..

 

I'm not entirely sure, but I'd err on the side of Technique Mastery over Applied Force: 6% arpen. CS is relatively low damage compared to most of the other stuff you're using and everything except for Force Breach benefits from Technique Mastery (since everything but FB deals K/E damage).

 

SHadow Strike EVERY TIME the proc pops, and it takes priority over everything else.

 

Using Shadow Strike as soon as it procs every time over Force Breach or Spinning Strike is a bad idea. The proc that allows you to use Shadow Strike effectively is on a 12 sec ICD that is completely removed from any other CDs. As such, as long as you use it before the buff fades, you're not losing anything. Delaying Force Breach, on the other hand, *will* cost you something because you're using it less than you would otherwise. Shadow Strike should take priority over everything except for Spinning Strike and Force Breach, since those are your only CD limited abilities that have diminished effect overall by being delayed.

[theblaznee]

Using Shadow Strike as soon as it procs every time over Force Breach or Spinning Strike is a bad idea. The proc that allows you to use Shadow Strike effectively is on a 12 sec ICD that is completely removed from any other CDs. As such, as long as you use it before the buff fades, you're not losing anything. Delaying Force Breach, on the other hand, *will* cost you something because you're using it less than you would otherwise. Shadow Strike should take priority over everything except for Spinning Strike and Force Breach, since those are your only CD limited abilities that have diminished effect overall by being delayed.

 

That's all well and good in theory, but just doesn't gel in a real situation 90% of the time.. That Shadow Strike proc fades FAST, and if you don't utilize it with priority you run a real risk of burning 25 extra force because it JUUUUST runs out before the game registers your Shadow Strike.. Shadow Strike is notoriously finnecky with the whole "in the back" registration as well..

So yes, on paper you're completely right.. But "on paper" doesn't work in game a lot of the time.. It's pretty much only doable on the training dolls.

[Levity]

Here's a reason to use it without find weakness; mezz, you only have one hit before it breaks so it should do as much damage as possible, and you have (some) time to let force regen before attacking.

 

The passive skill you gain from coming out of stealth that boosts your force regen. makes shadow strike usuable at the start of any fight as infiltration. After that Shadow Strike becomes an on the proc skill. Especially in a boss fight where you will pop your cool downs for the extra burst dps which will raise your crit and power to a ****** level(If you say a boss fight is a rare occurence I will laugh at you.)

 

When I was infiltration and I looked into the rotation and parsers of people who hit 1800-2000 dps they all started with shadow strike and hit crits because of their cool downs of 5-8k. So if that's not good starting damage then I don't know what you think is. Especially since that "force dump" is negated by the 6 seconds or whatever of crazy force regen.

[carlbaratta]

This isn't anything approaching a good rotation for Infiltration. First off, opening with Shadow Strike is simply bad play. When it doesn't have Find Weakness, it's better to just use Double Strike. Similarly, you never want to use Project without its applicable proc (Circling Shadows) for pretty much the exact same reason you don't use Shadow Strike.

 

If you really wanted to go with a fight starting attack string:

 

Stealth>Force Breach>Double Strike>Double Strike>Project

 

After that, you simply continue to keep Force Breach on CD, use Shadow Strike whenever Find Weakness is up, and use Project only after 2 Double Strikes (at 40+, replace Double Strike with Clairvoyant Strike). Saber Strike is, of course, used when you don't have the Force to use whatever your trying to use.

 

You never want to use TK Throw since it takes too long to do too little damage, and you're risking even less efficiency if you get hit and pushbacked during the cast. An Infiltration, the only regular force powers you use are Force Breach and Project.

 

I'm absolutely sure you hear this all the time but your posts are crazy helpful! Thank you!

[stephenalandavie]

Good rotation would be

 

CS x 2 then project then force breach,

 

always use shadow strike when it proc's

 

and always use blackout on cd.

 

thats infiltration for you

[SirGusto]

For PvP I use a 0-28-13 spec, and my rotation is situational, but usually start something like this:

 

From stealth cap stopping at max range

force potency

FiB- 3.5k-4k crits

Breach- 3.8k-5k crits

project- 3.5k- 6k crits with upheaval

low slash

backstab

dble strike

dble strike

 

From stealth 1v1

 

force potency

spinning kick

breach

project

lowslash

backstab

dble strike

stun

dble strike

project

breach

spinning strike

 

In Pvp the situation is always changing and rotations need to be adjusted accordingly

In Pve its pretty basic, just never use project without using dble strike or CS x2 first. Only use backstab when proc'd

[CurtisMaret]

Shadow- Infiltration Spec

I'm gonna be doing mostly PVP with this toon, I was wanting to do some major dps, i need to know what technique to use- such as Combat Technique, Shadow Technique, Guard, or Force Technique. And what would be the best rotation would be for it. I tryed out= 1st stealth, 2nd force breach, 3rd double strike X2. But it doesnt seem to work out well i keep my force well maintained but not enough damage. Im running the Infiltration spec, if theres a better spec for more dps, then id be glad to learn it. Ill be a level 30-35, around the time that i posted this.