Commando Changes Brainstorming

[NathanielStarr]

Hey from the PvP standpoint you can't heal when you are dead and commandos die way more than operatives.

[kenmc]

Hahahahahahahahaha, wait you are serious? Stop spamming Rapid Scan/Medical Probe baddie

 

So since no one agrees with you about commando healers being best single target healers (which they aren't) you are laughing at and saying people are bad at commando healing? Commandos used to be good tank healers but they nerfed the bonus healing for kolto residue, they nerfed the damage reduction for the shield from kolto bomb. I could go on and on. Sages can give a tank better damage reduction with their bubble, and force shelter which is attached to rejuvenate. Force shelter adds the same armor rating increase as advanced medical probe (10%). Scoundrels dont have anything that reduces the damage taken by the tank but they have high single target healing (best in game atm imo). You have slow release medpac which is so cheap there is no reason not to keep it up all the time on at least the tanks, you have kolto pack which can put yet another HoT on your tank, and in situations where you have melee dps you can even put kolto cloud on the tank. That is more heals through HoTs than a commando can do, and if a scoundrel is putting all that on one person, they are usually going to be taking a lot of damage and going to have high utilization of those HoTs. Then there is emergency medpac which has helped me save many a stupid tank in ops before. Bottom line commandos used to have better utility and energy management to where they were amazing single target healers, but now they have fallen behind the other 2 classes. Some suggestions I'll admit would hurt pve in order to help pvp, but I dont see why you seem to basically be discounting every suggestion, because you think commandos are the best single target healers in the game. you mentioned in a previous post that there is theory crafting to back up your claim, but I'm too lazy to dig back through pages upon pages of forum posts to find them, so I'm basing my suggestions on first hand observations of actually using the different classes.

 

This helps add to my point http://www.torparse.com/statistics/Overall/Heals in that top 100 list as of when I'm posting this there is only 1 commando/merc on there and that's all the way down at 69th place. The rest of the list is a sprinkling of sage/sorc scoundrel/operative. If commando healers don't need help then there would be more of them on that list.

[cs_zoltan]

*Long rant stinking from 1.2 nerf prejudice*

 

So I'm not only repeating myself, but others as well:

 

 

This.

 

My guild has and continues to use commando healers in Nightmare-level content. They really work fantastically well. It does require a fair bit of skill to manage the resource and the buff mechanics, but the single-target burst is extremely rewarding when properly timed. The only serious balance problem that commandos had pre-2.0 was being dramatically behind scoundrels in the area of raid healing. This was nicely rectified in 2.0 with the buff to Kolto Bomb and the addition of the knockback heal.

 

The real problem now is lingering prejudice. So many people firmly believe that commando healers are inferior. The fact that they generally have lower HPS than Scoundrels (and RADICALLY lower HPS than Sages) certainly doesn't help to disabuse anyone of this belief.

 

 

 

The first word in your forum name is an apt summary of your post: deluded. The correct conclusion is that bosses can be killed while the raid takes almost unimaginable amounts of avoidable damage from failing at mechanics. I've solo healed kills of a majority of the 8m HM bosses (including Styrak), and two of the 8m NiM bosses, and had none of these parses number among the top 50 on TORParse for 8m kills.

 

All three healing classes are suitable for end-game Operations. In fact, as KBN said in another thread, for Operations we're more or less in the sweet spot where raids can bring players who heal well rather than classes that heal well.

 

The most significant real hurdle for a Mercenary|Commando healer competing for a spot with an accomplished raid group is the ability of Operative|Scoundrel healers to stealth (out-of-combat) rez. Mercenary|Commando healers excel at single-target healing, but a skilled Operative|Scoundrel can fill this role (occasionally with a little help from his or her other healer or healers) while also bringing a stealth (out-of-combat) rez.

 

This isn't an issue with Mercenary|Commando or Operative|Scoundrel healing. Rather, it's an issue with the implementation of stealth (out-of-combat) rezzing for Operations. For example, I've seen a 16m NiM Cartel Warlords encounter with 11 successful rezzes. This group had 3 Operative|Scoundrel healers (and didn't have an Assassin|Shadow tank), and would have had at most 2 rezzes in this same encounter without stealth (out-of-combat) rezzing. For 16m Operations, it's also an issue with damaging abilities that can one- or two-shot non-tanks who haven't erred. A stealth (out-of-combat) rez is an invaluable tool for coping with such abilities until BioWare patches such mistakes.

 

 

 

More flesh on that napkin math...

 

Let's assume the Commando's cohealer is doing between 3500 and 4k HPS. So...3750 as a nice average. The Commando is doing 3300 (about what I see on a NiM fight). The 3% healing buff is actually up 100% of the time on nearly all of the raid, so we'll give it a value of 0.03 * 0.85 * 3750 = 95.63 HPS.

 

The 5% DR shield is more situational. The uptime on that is probably closer to 20%. Figuring the HPS value of that is really tricky, but we can take a stab at it based on combat logs. Tanks take about 1600 DtPS post-mitigation (which is when the DR shield is figured). Melee raid members (generally the group that gets the shield) take about 600 DtPS on an average raid. So let's call that (1600 * 2 + 600 * 2) * 0.05 * 0.2 = 44 HPS.

 

So, my commando is really doing about 3450 HPS. That's 8% shy of the cohealer. Still not quite there, but now you have to account for the fact that the average overheal for a sage/scoundrel is generally in the 30% range, even on Nightmare content. The average overheal for a commando on nightmare content is closer to 12%. That gives us eHPS on the sage/scoundrel of precisely 2625, and an eHPS on the commando of 2904 + 44 + 66.93 = 3015. Victory to the commando.

 

Now, I'm being slightly generous with the HPS values *overall*. Both classes are going to see substantially lower healing numbers on many fights. I also might be a bit high on the buff uptimes, though not by a lot. In any case, you see where this is going.

 

On top of that, commandos are burst healers, which puts them at a sustained disadvantage behind scoundrels and sages. That's just how TOR is balanced in all things (tanking and DPS included). So, Commandos are *intended* to have slightly lower eHPS, and yet they're very competitive when we actually look at the numbers.

 

Before you trot out the torparse leaderboards again, consider that the top scoundrel parse is not from a scoundrel who was in the same raid as the top commando parse. Real raids have multiple healers, and healers are generally going to get their best numbers when they have to pick up a lot of slack from a poor cohealer. The numbers I gave above are pretty fair. The numbers torparse has are inflated, because even though one healer (i.e. the sage or the scoundrel) got on the leaderboards, you can bet that the other healer in the raid didn't.

 

 

 

Actually, no. Scoundrels don't have an armor-boosting heal of any kind. This is part of why scoundrels don't conflict in any way when you double up on them in a raid.

 

 

 

In raids where sages get top numbers, they aren't bubbling all that much. I've done the eHPS calculations including Force Armor on numerous combat logs. It doesn't add all that much in the case where their numbers are already high, because they simply didn't need to lean on it to the extent that they do in low-HPS raids. Basically, if Salvation is doing its job, Sages bubble less (and vice versa). Their HPS does climb a bit when you figure in the bubble, but not all that much.

 

Figuring in the armor buff adds some more (it's basically why Advanced Medical Probe is almost precisely as strong of a heal as Medical Probe), but the value falls off dramatically when it isn't placed on a tank. Since Sages are rarely put on tank healing detail, their armor buff is worth a lot less in a relative sense than a commando's.

 

 

 

Sidenote to all y'all who keep bringing up the stealth rez argument: do you actually *use* hots? Having a HoT on anyone pulls you right back into combat. In some sense, I actually find it easier to stealth rez on my shadow tank than a scoundrel healer would (since they have to wait for the HoTs to completely expire). The stealth rez is a lot harder to pull off than you think. Sure, there are hilarious stories of Cartel Warlords with like 8 battle rezes, but those stories are fun because they're the exception rather than the rule.

 

 

 

Given a choice between a good commando and a good scoundrel, I'd almost certainly take the commando unless the other healer is also a commando. I love having the strong single-target heals, and scoundrels are definitely behind commandos in that respect. I don't like doubling up on any heal class though, and doubled commandos are really, really bad. Not as bad as doubled sages, but still awful. Commando/Scoundrel is an unbelievably strong healing combination. Commando/Sage is also pretty great.

 

All of the healers have unique strengths and weaknesses, and I think they are presently very, very well balanced for PvE (PvP is another story). It's basically to the point where I would take the player rather than the class, which is a good place to be.

 

 

 

Are you seriously judging healers by their HPS? More importantly, you're judging them by their HPS with a raid group, strat and execution that you haven't seen and a cohealer you've never met?!

 

HPS is far too situational to be used as a metric in that sense. I can tell you right now that my commando is capable of putting up nearly the same HPS numbers as our guild's scoundrel healer (and has). Do I do so on every fight? Only if the tanks are exploding, the DPS are standing in circles and my cohealer is OOM. The best healers are lazy, and commandos are the laziest healing class of them all. The very best commando healer I ever knew topped out at a 1400 HPS on HM Dread Guard pre-2.0, even when healing with a very weak cohealer. No one died, and no one ever felt even close to dying. His effective healing was almost 98%. That same healer was able to turn around and solo heal the Trenchcutter phase of Nightmare Kephess (still pre-2.0).

 

Healing is all about situational burst. Commandos do this better than anyone. Timing their burst may reduce their overall HPS, but it's the difference between a tank who got bursted down and a tank who is sitting pretty at full health after a close call. Scoundrels can do this, but not as well (Underworld Medicine has a very long cast time and can't be used back-to-back); Sages aren't even on the same level when it comes to single-target burst.

 

Also remember that commandos give a 5% healing received buff (which is noticeable) and a periodic 5% damage redux (which is also noticeable), which needs to be figured into their net HPS. Neither PvP nor PvE metrics correctly consider these factors, which is a large part of why commandos always seem to be behind in the HPS numbers.

 

In short, you're judging healers by some very shallow metrics. Is HPS useful? Yes, but only if you know the group, know the strat, and were either physically present in the run or have videos to study. In my experience, Nightmare content doesn't feel any harder with a Commando healer of equal skill vs a Scoundrel healer (or a Sage). That speaks balance to me.

 

 

Want some more?

[DomBah]

I made a parse instead

 

71711 heals and you end up with 23 heat (77 ammo). Oh and don't forget about the 10% armor and 5% damage reduction buff. Can a scoundrel do that? I don't think so

 

You are clearly not 69er. So my scoundrel is clearly undergeared to your mando. He is now mostly 69er, with 72er main- and 78er off-hand. To compare your healings with my better geared commando some link:

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/305191/105/0/Heals+Given

 

My commando is a mix of 69er for the set bonus (one of them full 72er), 72er main- and 78er off-hand, 4x 78er gear. As you can see, if you look at the "min heal", even my better geared commando (compared to my scoundrel) can not output the healings from your, i assume, mostly 78er merc.

 

I tried to parse too, and i have to say, iam surely not an expert of the scoundrel, i just clicked on some icons. Some of the pro's would do much better than i do. And know think about it, my scoundrel is clearly undergeared to your merc AND the scoundrel can do this even under pressure (except the casts of course), not to forget his instant healing for free, if target is under 30%, and his ability to bring back energy with his "hammer shot".

So, yes he is the best single target healer in the game, thats the reason why he is the best pvp healer. (the sage is and remains the best group healer, best for raids and the bubble is phenomenal)

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/493098/2/0/Heals+Given

 

Because scoundrels are op, and energy management nerf is the most logical choice to bring them in line. Sage is fine, and Mando is almost fine. Mando is the strongest single target healer with ok AoE heals, the only downside is that if you screw up the ammo management or you are forced to do it (stupid dps, dead 2nd healer etc etc) you have no ways of recovering. Fixing that all healers would be equal in PVE

I always said that my point of view is PVE, so idk why are you surprised by that.

 

And of course you dont say why the scoundrel is in your opinion op. And why is the sage fine? He brings the best output of all three healers.

 

You point of view is only pve, thats ok for you. But you fade out 50% of the game. Thats the problem.

And your idea of an energy reg. buff for commando is surely fine in pve and pvp, but solved NOT the MAIN problems in pvp.

 

And even in PVE, in 16er random raids its clearly, that the healings of the commando takes sometimes to long time, and if they dont crit, the tank or some other player simply dies (the sage now bubbles and bring his cast- hot or 2x instant crit healing or his main group healing, the scoundrel hots and heals with instants)

So even in pve, it would be nice to give him instants (reduced cd of bacta) and / or better hots (2x stackable traumaprobe:p)

Edited November 14, 2013 by DomBah

[cs_zoltan]

You are clearly not 69er. So my scoundrel is clearly undergeared to your mando. He is now mostly 69er, with 72er main- and 78er off-hand. To compare your healings with my better geared commando some link:

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/305191/105/0/Heals+Given

 

My commando is a mix of 69er for the set bonus (one of them full 72er), 72er main- and 78er off-hand, 4x 78er gear. As you can see, if you look at the "min heal", even my better geared commando (compared to my scoundrel) can not output the healings from your, i assume, mostly 78er merc.

Yes my Merc is almost full 78, I thought it's better to give actual numbers instead of wild guessing.

 

I tried to parse too, and i have to say, iam surely not an expert of the scoundrel, i just clicked on some icons. Some of the pro's would do much better than i do. And know think about it, my scoundrel is clearly undergeared to your merc AND the scoundrel can do this even under pressure (except the casts of course), not to forget his instant healing for free, if target is under 30%, and his ability to bring back energy with his "hammer shot".

So, yes he is the best single target healer in the game, thats the reason why he is the best pvp healer. (the sage is and remains the best group healer, best for raids and the bubble is phenomenal)

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/493098/2/0/Heals+Given

Nice parse, I had a hard time making sense of it since i don't know German, but here are some things i noticed:

1. you are healing yourself while i was healing my companion. That's -3% healing for you becuase of the talent and +1% for me for the legacy healing recived buff. So the new numbers are: 72428 for me and 77593 for you.

2. you had way luckier crits than me, even though I have 35% crit chance and I doubt you are anywhere close that on your scoundrel with 69/72 gear. Because of the gear difference I let this one slide.

 

So lets say i had 72428 with unlucky crits and you had 77593 with avarage crit. It would seems that i was wrong and scoundrel is the best single target healer, but we still didn't count in the 10% armor buff and the 5% damage reduction. And that would (considering mandos are usually tank healers so those buffs are highly valuable) put me in front of you. Not by much, but it would.

 

Long story short, I still say Mando is the best single target healer. And I still think there are only 2 problems with them in PVE, 1 the bad crit curve we have atm affects Mandos the most of the 3 healing class, 2 bad ammo management.

 

And of course you dont say why the scoundrel is in your opinion op. And why is the sage fine? He brings the best output of all three healers.

 

You point of view is only pve, thats ok for you. But you fade out 50% of the game. Thats the problem.

And your idea of an energy reg. buff for commando is surely fine in pve and pvp, but solved NOT the MAIN problems in pvp.

I wasn't talking about scoundrels because it's a commando thread, but since you are pushing it here it goes:

Scoundrel are op in PVP, becuase:

1. stealth, that's right they were good even before 2.0. stealth on it's own wouldn't make them op, but with the rest of their tricks it's a huge advantage.

2. lot of instant heals. It makes them nigh impossible to shut down.

3. lot of stuns. Scoundrel is the only healer who can stunlock his attackers and not the other way around. they have stealth mez, 1min cd aoe mez that last 8 second, and a 30sec cd hard stun.

4. piss easy energy management, they can use whatever they want without a second thought. Try that on a Mando and you will be sitting at 0 ammo pretty soon.

And even in PVE, in 16er random raids its clearly, that the healings of the commando takes sometimes to long time, and if they dont crit, the tank or some other player simply dies (the sage now bubbles and bring his cast- hot or 2x instant crit healing or his main group healing, the scoundrel hots and heals with instants)

So even in pve, it would be nice to give him instants (reduced cd of bacta) and / or better hots (2x stackable traumaprobe:p)

Mando has the best burst heal, deal with it. AMP->MP->BI in 3,2 second heals for 12695 in the worse case (no crit and taken the lowest tooltip value) + 10% armor. What else do you want?

 

Anyway I stop arguing with all of you now, it's clear that you either care about PVP or still live in the past and unable to accept the judgement of theorycrafters and those who use mando/merc healer in nightmare mod content.

What I wanted to show that mando is good in PVE and for the sake of PVP don't make them overpowered or broken in PVE. I don't diminish the value of PVP balance, I want Mandos to be good PVP healers, but don't achive it through breaking them in PVE.

[kenmc]

I played around with my commando and scoundrel a little more and I will have to apologize to you cz_zoltan. My commando did have better single target healing than my scoundrel. It was just the instants which give the impression of having more. I do have to say anyone who says that sage single target is better than commando is shoveling a big steaming pile. Sages have the worst single target healing because they have the best aoe healing in the game. At the very least I would like to see something done to help with energy management for commandos. Right now the skill cap to be good is so high that there are a lot of bad commando healers out there, helping to feed a prejudice against them. Something like giving a chance for crits from hammer shot to give you some energy back would be nice, or if not that then a talent like cell charger that's in the gunnery tree for combat medic would help.

[DomBah]

Yes my Merc is almost full 78, I thought it's better to give actual numbers instead of wild guessing.

Nice parse, I had a hard time making sense of it since i don't know German, but here are some things i noticed:

1. you are healing yourself while i was healing my companion. That's -3% healing for you becuase of the talent and +1% for me for the legacy healing recived buff. So the new numbers are: 72428 for me and 77593 for you.

2. you had way luckier crits than me, even though I have 35% crit chance and I doubt you are anywhere close that on your scoundrel with 69/72 gear. Because of the gear difference I let this one slide.

 

So lets say i had 72428 with unlucky crits and you had 77593 with avarage crit. It would seems that i was wrong and scoundrel is the best single target healer, but we still didn't count in the 10% armor buff and the 5% damage reduction. And that would (considering mandos are usually tank healers so those buffs are highly valuable) put me in front of you. Not by much, but it would.

 

Yes dont forget the traumaprobe which in your parse only ticks 6 instead of 13 times.

BUT you forget too, that you have much better gear and sry, to say, but you have surely not unlucky crits, 70% of your whole healing crits with 50%-66%!

And you are surely not an crit merc, more a power merc with i assume around 25-30% crit rate. Perhaps the USA (?) commandos/mercs have other stats then my german one, and again the devs have his own too with other stats, dont know, at bioware all is possible.

 

But the healing output itself was not my point, it was your point. I say they have nearly the same single target output, but scoundrel is just better to bring it really on target and is capable to manage critical, chaotic situations better, in PVE and PVP. So thats simple way he is the better single target healer, and now again, PVP proofs it very simple.

 

And here is where bioware should do something. I dont have much hope that they will do, as long its just the bioware doctrine, that the commando have to be the last link in the food chain.

 

i wasn't talking about scoundrels because it's a commando thread, but since you are pushing it here it goes:

Scoundrel are op in PVP, becuase:

1. stealth, that's right they were good even before 2.0. stealth on it's own wouldn't make them op, but with the rest of their tricks it's a huge advantage.

2. lot of instant heals. It makes them nigh impossible to shut down.

3. lot of stuns. Scoundrel is the only healer who can stunlock his attackers and not the other way around. they have stealth mez, 1min cd aoe mez that last 8 second, and a 30sec cd hard stun.

4. piss easy energy management, they can use whatever they want without a second thought. Try that on a Mando and you will be sitting at 0 ammo pretty soon.

 

1 and 3 is in PVE, your point of view, not an issue and has nothing to do with the healing, which is the topic here (best single target healer).

Your point 2 and 4 proofs that the scoundrel is the best single target healer and again its not an output question itself.

 

Mando has the best burst heal, deal with it. AMP->MP->BI in 3,2 second heals for 12695 in the worse case (no crit and taken the lowest tooltip value) + 10% armor. What else do you want?

 

First i dont know what "AMP", "MP" and "BI" is , But every healing instant action triggers a gcd and the casts at least lasts 3,5 seconds (healing - rapid scan, then emergency scan). So i cannot imagine what wonderhealings from the commando that are, that can in 3,2 seconds heal nearly 13k uncritted (except you mean with alacrity and i assume you mean again a full 78er or?). And next time i will say it to the smasher that he had to please stop his damage because iam now an cd of bacta.. Do you know what smasher and assa's dish out in 4-6 seconds?. Not to mention their abiltity to cc.

And what i want, i wrote, and i dont know why you dont understand, even as a pure PVE'ler, that if the commando is interrupted or in stun, most of the healing will NOT hit the target.

 

Anyway I stop arguing with all of you now, it's clear that you either care about PVP or still live in the past and unable to accept the judgement of theorycrafters and those who use mando/merc healer in nightmare mod content.

What I wanted to show that mando is good in PVE and for the sake of PVP don't make them overpowered or broken in PVE. I don't diminish the value of PVP balance, I want Mandos to be good PVP healers, but don't achive it through breaking them in PVE.

As a PVP and PVE'ler i dont care for some theorycrafter that say commando's are fine, just because iam a practitioner not a theorizer (google, sry if this words not right^^).

Iam going through the PVP school, i will say the hardest in the game, where you learn, that even if you have the best healing or damage output (and both not the comando sphere, either in PVE and PVE, all specs), BUT cannot bring it on target, that not all theorycrafter and their lobbyist, would survive the first enemy contact, if the battleground would be real

 

And why the commando should not, first time in his virtuell life, be overpowered in PVE?

Your point of view is only PVE and so say nothing more, then fu** you PVP'ler, dont care for you, theorycrafter say commando is the best single target healer, iam satisfied, and whos not, dont understand this class. Perhaps only god can play this class rightly (design as intended, trademark bioware, what iam surprised).

 

And do you really think that only if a few nagger want a hot buff, ms Peckenpaugh would do suddenly after two years, any really powerfull, that makes this class more than average. How long you play this game?

I love my commando at first sight, the new kolto bomb is purely fun and best skill ever, but in all cases their are better classes, for the group he has nothing unique too, so technically he NEEDS a mighty buff.

But as Peckenpaugh is a theorycrafter, thats the reason why Peckenpaugh is responsible for PVP balance, and the bioware commando doctrine, he never will get one . And yes i deal with it

Edited November 15, 2013 by DomBah

[cs_zoltan]

Yes dont forget the traumaprobe which in your parse only ticks 6 instead of 13 times.

BUT you forget too, that you have much better gear and sry, to say, but you have surely not unlucky crits, 70% of your whole healing crits with 50%-66%!

And you are surely not an crit merc, more a power merc with i assume around 25-30% crit rate. Perhaps the USA (?) commandos/mercs have other stats then my german one, and again the devs have his own too with other stats, dont know, at bioware all is possible.

 

I have, like I said, 35% crit and only had 30% crit at my parse, that's why i said unlucky.

 

1 and 3 is in PVE, your point of view, not an issue and has nothing to do with the healing, which is the topic here (best single target healer).

Your point 2 and 4 proofs that the scoundrel is the best single target healer and again its not an output question itself.

It might have been confusing since I jumped from PVE to PVP and vice versa all the time. But I said scoundrels are op in PVP, not PVE. In PVE they are fine, just easy (becuase of the energy management). In PVP they are op becuase of the reasons I said imo.

 

 

First i dont know what "AMP", "MP" and "BI" is , But every healing instant action triggers a gcd and the casts at least lasts 3,5 seconds (healing - rapid scan, then emergency scan). So i cannot imagine what wonderhealings from the commando that are, that can in 3,2 seconds heal nearly 13k uncritted (except you mean with alacrity and i assume you mean again a full 78er or?). And next time i will say it to the smasher that he had to please stop his damage because iam now an cd of bacta.. Do you know what smasher and assa's dish out in 4-6 seconds?. Not to mention their abiltity to cc.

And what i want, i wrote, and i dont know why you dont understand, even as a pure PVE'ler, that if the commando is interrupted or in stun, most of the healing will NOT hit the target.

 

AMP=Advanced Medical Probe, MP=Medical Probe, BI=Bacta Infusion

3,2 sec is possible for 2 reasons. 1: alacrity, 2:BI is front loaded heal (which means it first heals and then triggers the GCD, not like AMP which is 1,4sec cast time so it first start casting and triggers the GCD then heals at the end of cast/gcd)

 

And why the commando should not, first time in his virtuell life, be overpowered in PVE?

Your point of view is only PVE and so say nothing more, then fu** you PVP'ler, dont care for you, theorycrafter say commando is the best single target healer, iam satisfied, and whos not, dont understand this class. Perhaps only god can play this class rightly (design as intended, trademark bioware, what iam surprised).

 

I said the exact opposite. Even though I care about PVE mando healing, I very much want it to be good in PVP too, I'm not selfish like that. Just don't break it for PVE that's all.

Also Mando healers were OP before 1.2...just sayin'

 

I played around with my commando and scoundrel a little more and I will have to apologize to you cz_zoltan. My commando did have better single target healing than my scoundrel. It was just the instants which give the impression of having more. I do have to say anyone who says that sage single target is better than commando is shoveling a big steaming pile. Sages have the worst single target healing because they have the best aoe healing in the game. At the very least I would like to see something done to help with energy management for commandos. Right now the skill cap to be good is so high that there are a lot of bad commando healers out there, helping to feed a prejudice against them. Something like giving a chance for crits from hammer shot to give you some energy back would be nice, or if not that then a talent like cell charger that's in the gunnery tree for combat medic would help.

Well at least you acknowledged that you were wrong, that's not an everyday sight on the internet

What makes mando inferior is that if **** gets real (dead/noob 2nd healer, dps act like true dps and standing in stuff they shouldn't, tank making mistakes etc etc) you only have 1 ability to get your ammo back, and if it's on cd you are ****ed...

[kenmc]

Well at least you acknowledged that you were wrong, that's not an everyday sight on the internet

What makes mando inferior is that if **** gets real (dead/noob 2nd healer, dps act like true dps and standing in stuff they shouldn't, tank making mistakes etc etc) you only have 1 ability to get your ammo back, and if it's on cd you are ****ed...

 

I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong. They are very close but the commando was a bit higher, and extra damage mitigation that scoundrels don't have can help quite a bit. Yeah energy management makes it so that commandos cant heal through a whole lot of stupid as easy as a scoundrel can, or if people stack up enough, a sage can. Doesn't make them the **** healer that most people seem to think of them as, but the skill cap to cope with energy management is high (too high imo) so there are some bad commando healers out there. Most of which can be found in group finder

[IWantOffLineGame]

- As GS have an instant AoE mezz, make the single target mezz Concussive Round instant

 

- Make Kolto Bomb now heal up to 8 players and an instant cast like Kolto Cloud (Which means non-healers won't have this ability anymore.)

 

- Make Advanced Medical Probe a free weak channeled heal

 

- Make the current Commando free heal that they shoot out of their guns cost energy, but heal for more, and make it useable on self

 

Because Commando healers wear heavy armor, their heals have to be the weakest, so how about making them a healer-tank spec class? That means giving them better damage reduction, increase armor rating and self heals. If Commando healers are not buffed, you might as well just nerf it for a 3rd DPS skill tree.

 

So if you want to live as a healer, become a Commando healer, if you want the strongest heals, become a Sage/Sorcerer healer, and if you want to be a mobile little **** healer, play Scoundrel/Operative heals.

 

UPDATE:

 

Turn our free weak mobile heal into a channeled one, that we can now use too, and turn AMP into a mobile heal.

Edited November 19, 2013 by IWantOffLineGame
A better idea

[ToMyMa]

- As GS have an instant AoE mezz, make the single target mezz Concussive Round instant

 

- Make Kolto Bomb now heal up to 8 players and an instant cast like Kolto Cloud (Which means non-healers won't have this ability anymore.)

 

- Make Advanced Medical Probe a free weak channeled heal

 

- Make the current Commando free heal that they shoot out of their guns cost energy, but heal for more, and make it useable on self

 

Because Commando healers wear heavy armor, their heals have to be the weakest, so how about making them a healer-tank spec class? That means giving them better damage reduction, increase armor rating and self heals. If Commando healers are not buffed, you might as well just nerf it for a 3rd DPS skill tree.

 

So if you want to live as a healer, become a Commando healer, if you want the strongest heals, become a Sage/Sorcerer healer, and if you want to be a mobile little **** healer, play Scoundrel/Operative heals.

 

No. Just no. Removing kolto bomb from DPS's is plain stupid. It is one of the only utility abilities we have...

[kenmc]

- As GS have an instant AoE mezz, make the single target mezz Concussive Round instant

 

- Make Kolto Bomb now heal up to 8 players and an instant cast like Kolto Cloud (Which means non-healers won't have this ability anymore.)

 

- Make Advanced Medical Probe a free weak channeled heal

 

- Make the current Commando free heal that they shoot out of their guns cost energy, but heal for more, and make it useable on self

 

Because Commando healers wear heavy armor, their heals have to be the weakest, so how about making them a healer-tank spec class? That means giving them better damage reduction, increase armor rating and self heals. If Commando healers are not buffed, you might as well just nerf it for a 3rd DPS skill tree.

 

So if you want to live as a healer, become a Commando healer, if you want the strongest heals, become a Sage/Sorcerer healer, and if you want to be a mobile little **** healer, play Scoundrel/Operative heals.

 

Please tell me you're kidding. So basically you want to make energy management even worst for combat medic on top of nerfing their utility just to make them some "healer-tank"? Just because commandos wear heavy armor doesn't mean that their healing has to be the weakest. Heavy armor doesn't even make that much of a difference anyways. A "healer-tank" has no place in current pve content, and I don't see how it would do much good in pvp either. In flashpoints you need a healer that can heal solo, and a healer tank's healing would be too weak to do so, in 8 man content both healers need to be pretty close to the same level which is possible with current balance (even for combat medic, just not an easy thing because of energy management). In pvp a healer-tank may be able to take a few more hits, but it wouldn't do any good if your healing isn't strong enough to keep other members of your team alive. So yeah.... just no.

[Rambeezy]

Sorry for wrong terminology, only ever played a merc; I posted this in the other thread, would like to hear some all around feedback across the different specs.

 

The most minor change they could make that would help us in pvp without affecting pve, for bodyguards, would be a combat removal move. Ops vanish, Sorcs super bubble; both give them a set ammount of time when they can avoid damage mid fight while we continue to get attacked. It's during these precious seconds that I can truly see why we are the inferior healing class.

 

Personally, I would sacrifice heavy armor, HO and kolto overload if it meant we got some sort of stealth system. Since we are bounty hunters, why not make mercs a class that can fly 40 meters above the ground infinitely until we decide to enter combat. Give us a vanish as well but on a 5 minute cd. Would work just like stealth but it would be way beter and way cooler IMO. Anyways, I wonder what arsenal mercs think about losing HO for a stealth system? And of course, is this too overpowered?

 

Thank you

 

I'd also sac stealth scan for this change.

 

 

 

Y'all's version would probably be some tank (firebrand/stormcaller style) that people could see but not attack.

[TheSupaCoopa]

Sorry for wrong terminology, only ever played a merc; I posted this in the other thread, would like to hear some all around feedback across the different specs.

 

The most minor change they could make that would help us in pvp without affecting pve, for bodyguards, would be a combat removal move. Ops vanish, Sorcs super bubble; both give them a set ammount of time when they can avoid damage mid fight while we continue to get attacked. It's during these precious seconds that I can truly see why we are the inferior healing class.

 

Personally, I would sacrifice heavy armor, HO and kolto overload if it meant we got some sort of stealth system. Since we are bounty hunters, why not make mercs a class that can fly 40 meters above the ground infinitely until we decide to enter combat. Give us a vanish as well but on a 5 minute cd. Would work just like stealth but it would be way beter and way cooler IMO. Anyways, I wonder what arsenal mercs think about losing HO for a stealth system? And of course, is this too overpowered?

 

Thank you

 

I'd also sac stealth scan for this change.

 

 

 

Y'all's version would probably be some tank (firebrand/stormcaller style) that people could see but not attack.

 

The only point of rolling a mando IS for SS, HtL, and Heavy Armor. We just need more survivability. What you're suggesting is something that, in theory, would be good, but isn't good in game. What Mandos could use is a little bit more mobility. And maybe the ability to spec it so AMP crits finish the CD on BI. And a tank is NOT stealthy, nor is flying into the air.

[TezMoney]

I raid high level 16-man PVE content and am an avid PVP'er, I play Merc so excuse me if I don't get some moves right. I think my survivability is good, but I think it could be better.

 

I'd like the ability to apply Trauma Probe on multiple targets (at least 2, but 4 would be great) and a small buff to it's output. Since it's a reactive heal it falls short of things like kolto pack. Instead of the heal buff I would be cool if it applied Preventative Medicine every 4 procs instead. You can redesign Frontline Medic to apply these buffs to trauma probe instead of what it does now.

 

Combat Shield should also slightly reduce the cooldown on Reactive Shield.

 

Hammer Shots should replenish 1 ammo.

 

First Responder bumped up to 5% Alacrity

 

I also like the idea of a "Retreat" similar to Storm but backwards that perhaps applies a short burst of Charge, Kolto Residue, or Preventative Medicine when you land. Maybe even reapplies Trauma Probe, provided it can be applied to multiple targets.

Edited November 17, 2013 by TezMoney

[schooch]

We just need more survivability.

 

 

We don't need more survivability.

[DomBah]

I have, like I said, 35% crit and only had 30% crit at my parse, that's why i said unlucky.

w*t*f

With your uncritted min. healing compared to mine (look at the parse), and iam going mostly in power, i thought you are a power only merc.

 

Example: Bacta infusion (emergency scan) / medical probe (rapid scan)

Your min. healing: 4184 / 5235

Mine min. healing: 3306 / 4276

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To topic:

Another kind to improve the commando without pimp the output, could be simple to make the probes instants but then with a cd or give him more interrupt immunity like: if commando stand still more then a second, he proccs abiltity *********, which gives him interrupt immunity (like gunslinger with cover)

Edited November 19, 2013 by DomBah

[IWantOffLineGame]

No. Just no. Removing kolto bomb from DPS's is plain stupid. It is one of the only utility abilities we have...

 

One of the only utilities? And the fact is, DPS just got kolto bomb.

[IWantOffLineGame]

Please tell me you're kidding. So basically you want to make energy management even worst for combat medic on top of nerfing their utility just to make them some "healer-tank"? Just because commandos wear heavy armor doesn't mean that their healing has to be the weakest. Heavy armor doesn't even make that much of a difference anyways. A "healer-tank" has no place in current pve content, and I don't see how it would do much good in pvp either. In flashpoints you need a healer that can heal solo, and a healer tank's healing would be too weak to do so, in 8 man content both healers need to be pretty close to the same level which is possible with current balance (even for combat medic, just not an easy thing because of energy management). In pvp a healer-tank may be able to take a few more hits, but it wouldn't do any good if your healing isn't strong enough to keep other members of your team alive. So yeah.... just no.

 

1) Where did I say increase the costs of heals?

 

2) For PvE, you want Sage healers. Why? Because they have an 8 person AoE heal. I want Kolto Bomb to be an 8 person heal.

 

3) I only threw out the idea, as we don't want all healing/tanking/DPS classes to be the same, now do we? As for tank-heals, I wasn't talking about being an actual tank, but just harder to kill, is all, as we do have the weakest heals, and sages have the strongest.

 

We can't have the same strength in heals as Sages now can we? So why not give us better dmg reduction?

[kenmc]

1) Where did I say increase the costs of heals?

 

2) For PvE, you want Sage healers. Why? Because they have an 8 person AoE heal. I want Kolto Bomb to be an 8 person heal.

 

3) I only threw out the idea, as we don't want all healing/tanking/DPS classes to be the same, now do we? As for tank-heals, I wasn't talking about being an actual tank, but just harder to kill, is all, as we do have the weakest heals, and sages have the strongest.

 

We can't have the same strength in heals as Sages now can we? So why not give us better dmg reduction?

 

1) you said you wanted to make hammer shot cost ammo and heal for more. most every commando healer uses hammer shot as filler atm to make up for the tight energy management, and that takes that away. You said to make advanced medical probe a free weak channeled heal, but unless you remove the cd that doesn't make up for the loss of hammer shot at all, and makes a commando even worst in pvp.

 

2) Kolto bomb initially hits 4 people but then does it's extra healing over time to EVERYONE within its area. This means that in a 16 man op their aoe can actually be more powerful than a sage's that heals 8 no matter what.

 

3) all the healing/dps/tank classes have their similarities and differences. Sages like you said have a powerful 8man aoe heal, but their single target heals are kinda weak. That's why you want to pair them up with a scoundrel or a commando in 8 man ops. Scoundrels have strong and quick single target heals, with lots of HoTs, but weak aoe. Commandos have (if used carefully because of energy management) the strongest single target heals, but don't have as strong of instant heals as the scoundrel does. However unlike the scoundrel they have an armor buff, a shield, and a heal buff that they can put on their targets.

 

The commando does have a little better damage reduction already than the other 2 classes due to heavy armor vs med/light. It's probably not as big of a difference as what you were probably going for though. I think my commando has somewhere in the range of 32% while my scoundrel that has some better armorings is around 27%, and my sage which has the same mix of armorings as my commando has 19%.

 

All 3 classes are balanced pretty well to where if used right can have about the same ehps. Commandos lag a bit in certain situations because of how unforgiving the energy management currently is. It's just easier to get high numbers with overheals because of salvation for sages or slow release medpac spam for scoundrels.

[cashogy_reborn]

This thread. Such LOL. So bad

[kenmc]

This thread. Such LOL. So bad

 

and yet more useless commentary from the peanut gallery.

[schooch]

This thread. Such LOL. So bad

 

I read it when I need a good laugh.

[IWantOffLineGame]

1) you said you wanted to make hammer shot cost ammo and heal for more. most every commando healer uses hammer shot as filler atm to make up for the tight energy management, and that takes that away. You said to make advanced medical probe a free weak channeled heal, but unless you remove the cd that doesn't make up for the loss of hammer shot at all, and makes a commando even worst in pvp.

 

Communication is key, but I didn't want to make a long post, just wanted to be brief. Those two abilities were just going to be switched, but I've changed my mind, and now believe our current free weak heal should be channeled, but make AMP now a mobile heal.

 

There would be no need to change the skill tree for this.

 

 

2) Kolto bomb initially hits 4 people but then does it's extra healing over time to EVERYONE within its area. This means that in a 16 man op their aoe can actually be more powerful than a sage's that heals 8 no matter what.

 

I never said take that part away, now did I? I'm a PvPer, and would like our AoE to include up 8 players and be like the Scoundrels heal, where I just have to click on a players name, instead of having to target the damn floor lol. I can target just fine, but it makes it easier.

 

3) all the healing/dps/tank classes have their similarities and differences. Sages like you said have a powerful 8man aoe heal, but their single target heals are kinda weak. That's why you want to pair them up with a scoundrel or a commando in 8 man ops. Scoundrels have strong and quick single target heals, with lots of HoTs, but weak aoe. Commandos have (if used carefully because of energy management) the strongest single target heals, but don't have as strong of instant heals as the scoundrel does. However unlike the scoundrel they have an armor buff, a shield, and a heal buff that they can put on their targets.

 

My lvl 55 Sage, who isn't fully geared yet, but gets bolstered in PvP heals are: AoE (5966) Healing Trance (4827) Deliverance (4781-5004) Rejuvenate (2895-3118) but the 1705 part of it over 9 seconds goes up to 15 seconds for more healing than that. & Benevolence (2830-3278) but it costs 60 energy.

 

I don't know if you have PvE'd as a Sage, or if PvE Sages think their single target heals are weak, but I have no issues keeping players alive with my single target heals in PvP.

 

The commando does have a little better damage reduction already than the other 2 classes due to heavy armor vs med/light. It's probably not as big of a difference as what you were probably going for though. I think my commando has somewhere in the range of 32% while my scoundrel that has some better armorings is around 27%, and my sage which has the same mix of armorings as my commando has 19%.

 

All 3 classes are balanced pretty well to where if used right can have about the same ehps. Commandos lag a bit in certain situations because of how unforgiving the energy management currently is. It's just easier to get high numbers with overheals because of salvation for sages or slow release medpac spam for scoundrels.

 

My commando is lvl 38, but I did play around as heals as a lvl 55 merc, and when I did my HPS were 500-700 on average, got over 1000 HPS twice.

 

I find the key to having good HPS is to spam kolto bomb every 6 seconds, so my lvl 38 Commando HPS are 700-900 on average, and do get over 1000 HPS more often now. So after the DXP on the 27th, I'll be a lvl 55 healer again, but better than before, so perhaps my mind will change a little. At my current pace, once I'm fully geared at lvl 55, I should be getting 1200+HPS (Remember I play PvP not PvE )

 

My geared OP healer has gotten over 2000 many times, and my under-geared Scoundrel healer pre 55 has gotten 1886 HPS, and my Sage HPS is around 1100-1400. Still gearing up, so better #s will be coming.

 

I find Scoundrel heals to be the easiest, then Sage, then Commando. But the more I play Commando heals, the more I think Sage is the hardest at times, because Commando heals can be free of interrupts every 2 times for a few seconds and have shorter casting times.

[ToMyMa]

One of the only utilities? And the fact is, DPS just got kolto bomb.

 

Mando off healing is probably the best, as we can afford to heal with kolto bomb and advanced med probe without loss of too much DPS.