Two ideas to improve Tank

[ENIGMASOLVED]

I love my Vanguard and it is my main. The one down fall for the tank spec is that it lacks some utility. I have two ideas that I think would make them more desirable:

 

1. Harpoon a Friendly: Somewhere in Tank tree, make it possible for a Vanguard tank to pull a friendly to them. I know Sages have this but it would not be the first time that Bio mimicked skills among classes.

 

2. Tactful Roll: You roll 10 meters backwards from target (4 meter range). I see this as a great skill as you could "roll" away from target then pull them to you, peeling them off of their intended target.

 

I know these are just concepts but I do believe we need more skills of this nature. I have other ideas as well but I believe these two would be the easiest to implement.

[ENIGMASOLVED]

Just wanted to add I would love to have some type of pushback skill but since both of the other tanks already have one, I figured they would not give us one.

 

Another stun or immobilization skill would be nice but again I do not see Bio giving any class any more of these.

 

I thought maybe "rally call" that increases all nearby friendly players (HP, Alacrity, Power, Absorb, primary stat, etc. (pick one)).

 

Again, some ideas.

[Justcae]

Neither of those would actually improve our tanking ability. Though they would be flavour skills, neither of them would actually help in any PvE environment so I have to assume that you are looking at it from a PvP viewpoint.

 

Vanguard tanks are perfectly capable...in SM/HM content. We really show our singular weakness in NiM content.

 

Cooldowns.

 

When Bioware designs fights they are very much in love with tank swaps due to a large incoming spike of damage. This damage is to be controlled by the proper usage of cooldowns. However, any fight were these come faster than two minutes (or 1 minute intervals if you would prefer) Vanguards get demolished.

 

A fantastic example of this is Thrasher NiM. Thrasher is a fight that functions around a 45s interval. Every 1m30s you are getting punted up ontop of the wall. Vanguards are the only tanks this absolutely obliterates. Each other tanking class will always be punted up with a cooldown available (even the double punt). Vanguards smash into Sniper damage spikes ruthlessly and can only pray to the Shield RNG god, and proficient heals.

 

And this is far from the only example. Just a simply understood one.

 

Riot gas either needs to be reworked into a proper tanking cooldown, or we need another "Save me" button.

 

Vanguards Currently

 

Armor (#1) - Though Guardians have equal armor with Guardian Slash active. (Edited)

ST Threat (#3) - We lack actual "High Threat" skills and our ...

DPS (#3) - Both other tanking classes put out more DPS than us. Shadows can put out 20% more w/o breaking a sweat.

AoE Threat (#2) - We pull ahead of guards here specifically because of the number of AoE options we have. Shadows again destroy everyone.

Mitigations (#2) - Shadows win Def/Sh both. We pull ahead in Abs. Guardians fall behind on this.

Cooldowns (#3)- By far number three. No F/T immunity. No secondary damage reduction cooldown of any valid magnitude

 

But wait... how could i forget!

 

Auto attack (#1) - Our auto attack is WAY better than the other two. Nevermind that they don't have to use theirs with much regularity...

 

We have two stuns, we can spec for an amazing amount of slows, we have a leap and a pull, and we have nice range (the little it matters). The only part we are seriously lacking is cooldowns. It would have been fantastic if we could have addressed this with our class questions but unfortunately the Vanguard tanking community is few and far between compared to those who want to do DPS.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Justcae

[Justcae]

Just wanted to add I would love to have some type of pushback skill but since both of the other tanks already have one, I figured they would not give us one.

 

Another stun or immobilization skill would be nice but again I do not see Bio giving any class any more of these.

 

I thought maybe "rally call" that increases all nearby friendly players (HP, Alacrity, Power, Absorb, primary stat, etc. (pick one)).

 

Again, some ideas.

 

Rather than editing my post, I'll just address this really quick.

 

As far as the knock back...

 

Vanguard - Leap, Pull

Guard - Leap, Push

Shadow - Pull, Push

 

Is the reason why we don't have a knockback. And as far as the Rally ability, hey group cooldowns are nice (see Riot gas!) but please Vanguards do not make the same mistake as Guardians are currently doing. In the game currently there are several classes whose DPS will decrease with alacrity because of built in timers, like Pyro Vanguards HiB Reset of 6s. Alacrity doesn't affect these built in timers and as such wreck certain class rotations. Please don't request Alacrity group buffs unless they ever fix this.

[TheSupaCoopa]

I think all Trooper classes should get a combat roll from level one which would be like our version of cover. It would act like this: Pressing the button that "combat Roll" is mapped to and pressing one of the WASD keys would make you roll in that direction, increasing defense for the duration of the roll. You would only be able to roll once every 3 seconds. Storm should also be baseline, but for VGs only. In place of Storm, we would get a CD called "Reactive Armor" which would increase shield and defense by 15% and all damage received by 25%. In addition, your guarded ally(if in range) would also receive these benefits, regardless of class(It would work like a Shield generator for the duration, if that makes any sense) and last 10s.

[NeverSuffer]

I think all Trooper classes should get a combat roll from level one which would be like our version of cover. It would act like this: Pressing the button that "combat Roll" is mapped to and pressing one of the WASD keys would make you roll in that direction, increasing defense for the duration of the roll. You would only be able to roll once every 3 seconds. Storm should also be baseline, but for VGs only. In place of Storm, we would get a CD called "Reactive Armor" which would increase shield and defense by 15% and all damage received by 25%. In addition, your guarded ally(if in range) would also receive these benefits, regardless of class(It would work like a Shield generator for the duration, if that makes any sense) and last 10s.

 

I agree that Storm should be baseline however we do NOT need a roll. That doesn't fit our class in anyway. Cover is a smuggler/agent mechanic and it should stay that way. We have Hold The Line... it is awesomeness.

[KittyCheshire]

I think all Trooper classes should get a combat roll from level one which would be like our version of cover. It would act like this: Pressing the button that "combat Roll" is mapped to and pressing one of the WASD keys would make you roll in that direction, increasing defense for the duration of the roll. You would only be able to roll once every 3 seconds. Storm should also be baseline, but for VGs only. In place of Storm, we would get a CD called "Reactive Armor" which would increase shield and defense by 15% and all damage received by 25%. In addition, your guarded ally(if in range) would also receive these benefits, regardless of class(It would work like a Shield generator for the duration, if that makes any sense) and last 10s.

 

So you want a Roll with a 3 second cooldown?

and

A jump available for every spec? (This I'd actually not mind, but not at the cost of Hold the Line)

on top of

Hold the line and Harpoon?

 

You happen to want phase walk and guardian leap aswell? I agree Vanguard Tanks deserve another cooldown or a rework of Riot Gas, even if it's at the cost of some of our defensive stats. Doubt it will happen, it's kind of the Vanguards thing to be 'easy' though I personally find that it's a bit boring with so little cooldowns to time. But their movement is quite alright in their own unique way. Hold the Line is pretty amazing.

 

Vanguards Currently

 

Armor (#1) - Though Guardians have equal armor with riposte active.

ST Threat (#3) - We lack actual "High Threat" skills and our ...

DPS (#3) - Both other tanking classes put out more DPS than us. Shadows can put out 20% more w/o breaking a sweat.

AoE Threat (#2) - We pull ahead of guards here specifically because of the number of AoE options we have. Shadows again destroy everyone.

Mitigations (#2) - Shadows win Def/Sh both. We pull ahead in Abs. Guardians fall behind on this.

Cooldowns (#3)- By far number three. No F/T immunity. No secondary damage reduction cooldown of any valid magnitude

 

But wait... how could i forget!

 

Auto attack (#1) - Our auto attack is WAY better than the other two. Nevermind that they don't have to use theirs with much regularity...

 

We have two stuns, we can spec for an amazing amount of slows, we have a leap and a pull, and we have nice range (the little it matters). The only part we are seriously lacking is cooldowns. It would have been fantastic if we could have addressed this with our class questions but unfortunately the Vanguard tanking community is few and far between compared to those who want to do DPS.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but by comparing it so shallow you make it sound you find Shadows overpowered simply because of their threat ability and defensive stats? Are you forgetting they have about 17% less damage reduction, they need ridicilously high defensive stats to compensate (and let's face it, it gives them an extremely spiky nature.) Not to mention you do count Riposite (you ment Guardian Slash btw ) but not mention anything else (such as Energy Blast, Slow Time, Force Sweep etc.) But in the end we do agree on Vanguards needing another cooldown.

 

Which I think only from looking at NiM content. I think Vanguards are and always have been in a solid place. They've got amazing plain mitigation and besides threat they haven't got much they need to watch (keep up the 5% damage debuff and Energy Blast on recharge) which is more reaction than a strict rotation. But in NiM using cooldowns perfectly becomes very important and then Vanguards often feel 'naked' to me, from healing perspective not quite underpowered, but just there, unable to have the control tanks should have. Another cooldown however will likely cost us some plain mitigation.

[Justcae]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but by comparing it so shallow you make it sound you find Shadows overpowered simply because of their threat ability and defensive stats? Are you forgetting they have about 17% less damage reduction, they need ridicilously high defensive stats to compensate (and let's face it, it gives them an extremely spiky nature.) Not to mention you do count Riposite (you ment Guardian Slash btw ) but not mention anything else (such as Energy Blast, Slow Time, Force Sweep etc.) But in the end we do agree on Vanguards needing another cooldown.

 

Actually at no point did I ever say that Shadows were overpowered. If you inferred that due to comparisons that's entirely on you. I'm not forgetting about their lower armor, in point of fact I do say that that's where Vanguards are number one. Shadows average mitigation and self heals currently make them take a small damage profile. Their biggest problem came from NiM spikes being able to one shot them if if they didn't have something running (see: Operations Chief Terminate). In the next patch Bioware is changing that to be a non-issue entirely with Shadows getting a huge buff to their base damage mitigation at the cost of their selfheals. Wherein then I might start talking about Shadows being overpowered.

 

You are right though, I had the Guardian Slash buff mixed up with the Riposte 5% Defense. My bad on that one for not logging on and double checking.

 

I did make the mistake of not specifically going through and saying why the things are ranked the way they were but I was actually including those in the breakdown. ie) Vanguards specifically have higher Absorb because of Energy Blast. But as you've pointed it out at this juncture and makes me sound foolish for not spelling it out let me.

 

Shadows - 5% Accuracy Debuff on M/R, 5% DR, +15% Shield (that transfers into 8% Absorb)

 

Guardians - 5% Accuracy Debuff on M/R, 3% Armor, 5% Defense

 

Vanguards - 5% DR, 3% Absorb -> 25% Absorb for 6s/10s

 

Go Vanguards right? I'll leave out the Blade Barrier shields, the group shield on AoE, and the Shadow Self Heals which are all from spec but really hard to compare to a Vanguard. I think Shoulder Cannon heals are supposed to reflect this is some way. It's so clunky that its hard to compare.

 

And all of that said and done? Everything in the previous posts list still stands. It was already all included. Vanguards are capable but nothing special. With our high base armor, and high absorb we are a very smooth damage tank. That's our sole claim to fame. We're easy to heal because our damage is consistent. Make content that requires cooldowns to be popped for tank survival? We suffer greatly.

 

Which I think only from looking at NiM content. I think Vanguards are and always have been in a solid place. They've got amazing plain mitigation and besides threat they haven't got much they need to watch (keep up the 5% damage debuff and Energy Blast on recharge) which is more reaction than a strict rotation. But in NiM using cooldowns perfectly becomes very important and then Vanguards often feel 'naked' to me, from healing perspective not quite underpowered, but just there, unable to have the control tanks should have. Another cooldown however will likely cost us some plain mitigation.

 

Each tank is similarly easy to play. They all keep their debuffs on their targets as a part of their natural rotation and they each try to build their stacks/proc their shields as fast as possible. Which also comes from part of their natural rotation. They whole argument (which I do not think you're making by the way, only was reminded of) that such and such is a skill tank, is just bull.

 

They either need to give Vanguards another DR cooldown or bring Reactive shield down to 1m30s (if they continue to insist on making 45s rotations). Our mitigation does not even need to be changed for this, as our cooldowns are so lacking atm its sad. And as content is created that requires them cooldowns just become a wash.

 

TLDR; Yes, more cooldowns.

 

Aside: No to the combat roll/cover.

[Gloomycakes]

(Scroll up for the amazing information.)

 

I think all Kitty tried to point out that it's difficult to compare the tanks with a simple pro's vs con's due to so many abilities needing to be involved and valued as well as the actual values. In the whole post (s)he simply points out it puts Shadows in a better perspective due not including values but posting pro's vs con's, but not stating you'd actually think so. If you'd read his whole post you'd also notice that though finding your arguments incomplete and expressing some worries about the bigger picture, he completely agrees with your statement that Vanguards need another cooldown or Reactive Shield increased. This line: "Vanguards often feel 'naked' to me, from healing perspective not quite underpowered, but just there, unable to have the control tanks should have." makes that rather clear, though could be worded better. Though after the sarcastic, possibly even snappy reply to the first quote I can understand you felt attacked.

 

I'm not a math-expert, but I'd like the idea that Tanks can actively react to what's presented to them in a HM/NiM and if they don't, get hammered for it. So another person agrees with you Cae. Though I've not yet dared to venture in NiM with my Powertech nor Vanguard due to discomfort I feel with this class, which is me, not the class before I get attacked.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Gloomycakes

[Justcae]

Though I've not yet dared to venture in NiM with my Powertech nor Vanguard due to discomfort I feel with this class, which is me, not the class before I get attacked.

 

Gloomy,

 

I know that tone is hard to grasp when it's a post on the internet. Though my response may come across as quarrelsome, it was never meant as such. Simply putting out some of those numbers that people like looking. In my original post I'm referring to things having played each of the three classes that doesn't necessarily make it easy for others to follow along with me.

 

Appreciate your post, and the ones above it. It's also why I added the TLDR at the end. I simply agreed with the above assertion that cooldowns are where Vanguards need to be looked at (and single target taunt not having a flight time but that's my other gripe).

 

Cae

[KittyCheshire]

My apologies to both Gloomy and Cae, I never meant to insult or come across like that towards either of you. I likely also should have been more polite to TheSupaCoopa.

 

I'm a big fan of Cae's Vanguard guide, it's made me feel a lot more comfortable with my own Powertech and I'd never doubt his knowledge about the class nor claimed he lacked knowledge about any of the others. I felt the comparison left out vital points but I might have misunderstood the point Cae was getting at. Like for me if person A is close second at everything, where-as Person B and C both shine on different aspects but are rather weak on others, it doesn't mean person A is worst off. But it does indeed mean that they don't stand out at anything which in a 2-person tank-team often would be needed. I completely agree that a class should have the tools to overcome the challenges presented by HM/NiM. Which is likely the same reason a lot of people would like another cooldown/reactive shield rework. Gloomy simply said it a lot better than I did, English is not my first language, sorry.

 

I'll stop blabbing, it's like we all agree and I got kind of off-topic. Sorry OP.

[Justcae]

I'm not insulted or put off at all, and if English isn't your first language you're doing very well. My comparison as noted above didn't break down numbers, nor did it give anyone else a reason as to why and how those line up. That's not your fault, nor anyone else. That''s a post that left more wanting.

 

Just like in my guide thread I'm never going to come down on someone for asking questions at all. Just because I say something is true doesn't mean you have to take my word for it with no explanation.

 

Vanguards function wonderfully in SM/HM content. The only place I've found in previous content that we've ever lacked is in the last round of NiM content. And those experiences were directly linked to our cooldown abilities (or lack thereof). As far as basic function of a Vanguard the only things I'd really like to see in comparison directly to the other two tanks are....

 

1) Instant Single Target Taunt - For smoother tank swaps, and quicker add pick up. There's no reason why we should have a flight time on our ST taunt.

 

2) A base increase to our DPS. Where both other tanks leave us behind.

 

Beyond that is just the third thing we've been already talking about, if they design mechanics around requiring a cooldown to get through something make sure we have the cooldown to do it. Riot Gas simply does not cut it.

[SpeckV]

Just wanted to add I would love to have some type of pushback skill but since both of the other tanks already have one, I figured they would not give us one.

 

This is something I'd like to see. Honestly I'd like Stockstrike removed from the rotation and a knockback added to it(guess you'd have to increase the cooldown too).

[Justcae]

This is something I'd like to see. Honestly I'd like Stockstrike removed from the rotation and a knockback added to it(guess you'd have to increase the cooldown too).

 

1. SS is one of your main skills in your tanking tree. It procs your Ion Cell giving you a stack of the absorb needed for Ion cell and you want to remove it from the rotation?

 

2. As mentioned earlier, we have a pull and a leap. You'd need to give up one of those for a knockback that you'd almost never use PvE. Which would you give up?

[SpeckV]

1. SS is one of your main skills in your tanking tree. It procs your Ion Cell giving you a stack of the absorb needed for Ion cell and you want to remove it from the rotation?

 

2. As mentioned earlier, we have a pull and a leap. You'd need to give up one of those for a knockback that you'd almost never use PvE. Which would you give up?

 

1. By saying I'd like it removed from the rotation, I mean the spec reworked where it wasn't needed in the rotation. I'd have thought that would be obvious. I truly dislike having to be in melee range just because I have to use SS every time its up. With SS you can't even pretend that whole 'ranged tank' thing was real.

 

2. I don't get your meaning. How does having a pull and a leap preclude a knockback?

[GOLANX]

Jedi Guardian : Leap and Knockback

Jedi Shadow: Pull (tank tree) and Knockback

Vanguard: Pull and leap (tank tree)

 

this is why Pull and leap precludes a knockback as to keep the balance with the other tank classes.

 

and our Pull is better than the shadows as we can attach a root to the end of it (tank tree), they cant.

 

this said the Sin (i dont really have a shadow atm and dont know its equivilent) has a ability called spike which will knock down the enemy and back about a meter ive use it at times as a secondary knockback if i have an enemy at the end of a chasm, edge of a bride, it could be interesting if through the tank tree or something it could knockback our opponent a meter

[wildcoast]

Vanguard - Leap, Pull

Guard - Leap, Push

Shadow - Pull, Push

 

Movement wise, you also forget that Guard has a Friendly Leap, which can be used to position for an attack on an enemy next to the friendly as well. (or to get back into range of someone being guarded)

[Justcae]

1. By saying I'd like it removed from the rotation, I mean the spec reworked where it wasn't needed in the rotation. I'd have thought that would be obvious. I truly dislike having to be in melee range just because I have to use SS every time its up. With SS you can't even pretend that whole 'ranged tank' thing was real.

 

2. I don't get your meaning. How does having a pull and a leap preclude a knockback?

 

Because there isn't any such thing as a ranged tank currently in game. We're simply a tank with ranged abilities. The only fight I can think of that we can really exploit our ranged abilities is Olok in S+V. Every other boss is either going to be right in your face even if SS were a 30m skill.

 

Movement wise, you also forget that Guard has a Friendly Leap, which can be used to position for an attack on an enemy next to the friendly as well. (or to get back into range of someone being guarded)

 

Not forgetting anything. There is the base comparison for Push/Pull/Leap which are all physics skills.

 

If you wanted to include movement you'd have to look at Hold the Line (30% Runspeed w/Physics Immunity), and Force Speed for shadows. You can further improve your speed of each tank via talents.

[TheSupaCoopa]

I agree that Storm should be baseline however we do NOT need a roll. That doesn't fit our class in anyway. Cover is a smuggler/agent mechanic and it should stay that way. We have Hold The Line... it is awesomeness.

 

I was talking about a roll like in ME.

 

Don't get me wrong, HtL is an awesome OCD(Offensive CD), and I wish BF(Battle Focus) would increase damage reduction when specced.

Edited November 23, 2013 by TheSupaCoopa