The Actual Reason PVP is failing.

[AdmiralParmesan]

World pvp, or the lack there of is not the actual reason that SwToR's pvp is not doing well. It has nothing to do with a PUG vs premade argument either. These complaints while valid are only symptoms of a larger problem; stagnation.

 

To break the overall issue into two problems it would be

 

1) Lack of cross sever pvp

2) Lack of sufficient class balancing on a timely basis

 

------------------

 

Lack of cross sever pvp is a large hamper to competitive pvp and even casual pvp on pve severs. Competitve pvp, as it suggests, requires other players interested in competition. Sadly this is a relatively small population within SwToR's community. It is a small population because for many pvpers in this game, this is their first MMO. In order to build upon ones skill it is often necessary to play against players of similar skill. When you are destroyed by a vastly superior team it is difficult to learn from as their are often many different dynamics as to why your team/you lost. Ranked from my understanding tries to match you up with players of similar skill but, this simply can not work when you do not have the actively queing player base needed to accurately match up players. You are just as likely to play the best players on your sever as the worst, which is a huge problem for those trying to get into pvp.

 

Can Bioware implement cross sever pvp? Probably not, from my understanding it is beyond their capability or else they would have already done it. Still this is a very limiting factor is this game's growth as it has been a set standard in MMOs for quite some time.

 

------------------

 

Class balance is, as most things in life, perception. These perceptional differences arise from varying levels of skill, understanding and teammate coordination that the player has to deal with. That being said there are some cases where perception can not argue with fact, that some classes are simply inferior in too many regards to others.

 

I believe the perfect example is actually DPS operatives/scoundrels. In the entire time that I played SwToR I can not recall one instance where a DPS op/scoun was ever desired for pvp. Perhaps it was when the game first came out and expertise buffs/adrenals stacked but that was almost two years ago and due more to a broken mechanic than the class operating efficiently. Simply put the damage aspect of the class has not worked well (PVE or PVP) and there seems to be no incoming buffs for dps either. However this does not only apply to dps scoundrel/op. Commandos and Sorcs are also prime candidates for receiving good quality of life changes, PT/Vanguard tanks (not the stupid hybrid in tank stance) could really use some help as well. In short this would not be a huge problem, after all not all classes can truly be competitive at one given time. However given that this game does not even have FOTM classes (it has flavor of the year classes) and the most balancing complaints are only met with "reroll" I think it is safe to say this is a huge problem.

 

How can you have an active pvp player base when most players don't even feel they can play they class/spec they want to? This is part of the reason that group ranked has dropped off the face of the earth, so many players feel they don't play classes/specs viable for a group. To a large extent they are correct.

------------------

 

To be fair lack of content is also an issue, however I feel that these two problems are more serious to the longevity of the game.

[AdmiralParmesan]

To simplify mentioned class problems.

 

Commandos/Mercs - Difficulty casting

Sorc/Sage healing- Difficulty casting, limited defenses

Sorc/Sage dps- Difficulty casting, limited defenses, mobility shut down by roots

Operative dps- Terrible sustained damage, limited defenses

PT/Vanguard tank - Lack of burst, Lack of on demand defensive cooldowns

 

Obviously there are more problems out there. This is just to clarify in a simplified manner.

[Lasica]

Hmm the main problem for me seems to be premades. When you can spend 3-4 hours playing only against the same republic premade all night it really kills the fun from the game.

[Helig]

One thing is certain - this game needs less CC - AoE CC, in particular. Can't take 2 steps in the melee zone without getting punted, feared, blinded, stunned, slowed, rooted. Definitely fun having a full resolve bar if you're a Smash Marauder who is getting healed... in most other cases, not so much.

 

One of the reasons that I play melee very defensively in regs - counterintuitively, I stay the hell away from the front line and guard the flanks and the backline.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Helig

[TheCourier-]

To simplify mentioned class problems.

 

Commandos/Mercs - Difficulty casting

Sorc/Sage healing- Difficulty casting, limited defenses

Sorc/Sage dps- Difficulty casting, limited defenses, mobility shut down by roots

Operative dps- Terrible sustained damage, limited defenses

PT/Vanguard tank - Lack of burst, Lack of on demand defensive cooldowns

 

Obviously there are more problems out there. This is just to clarify in a simplified manner.

 

Annihilation marauder has needed massive buffs ever since patch 1.5. Increased dot damage and faster ramp-up time is what annihilation spec needs.

Edited October 26, 2013 by TheCourier-

[AdmiralParmesan]

Annihilation marauder has needed massive buffs ever since patch 1.5. Increased dot damage and faster ramp-up time is what annihilation spec needs.

 

Annihilation hits pretty hard if played right, it just needs dot protection as a good start. It has the tools it needs to succeed just no way to make its damage stick. Dot classes in general have this problem currently.

[Valkyriez]

Class balance is all in the eye of the beholder and mostly irrelevant. Half the time the players on the forums cant even agree on class balance, let alone agree on "changes" that should occur. I think Bioware is and has been doing a bang up job so far and besides a few bugs, class balance is in a pretty good sweet spot. Every class has a spec that's viable in a team ranked environment, which is where it should be. It might not be YOUR favorite spec, but then again, whats teh definition of "viable"? Top 5%? top 10%?

 

Most of the time that will rely on player skill alone and not community perceived class imbalances.

 

I've just come back to the game after 15 months or so off and pretty much just jumped straight into PvPing. I have seen every class perform pretty well and in the hands of other players those same AC's have been played terribly. You can't balance player skill.

[TheCourier-]

Annihilation hits pretty hard if played right, it just needs dot protection as a good start. It has the tools it needs to succeed just no way to make its damage stick. Dot classes in general have this problem currently.

 

Literally none of the top ranked teams used annihilation marauder because the spec is completely awful. Bioware has already admitted that it is supposed to be the highest parsing marauder spec. Carnage spec currently parses higher than annihilation spec. So, annihilation spec is a dot spec that does less damage than marauder's burst DPS spec. That is broke.

[KingofGob]

I see a lot of doom and gloom on the PvP forums but the one thing I don't see is anyone giving metrics as to what qualifies as "failing." What makes you think PvP is failing? I haven't notice an increase in normal queue times in over a year really, I see people complaining about pretty much the same things as they do on any other mmo's PvP forums. Maybe I'm missing the boat here but explain to me why PvP is "failing" (and the fact that you personally don't like something isn't evidence that something isn't working).

[SpaniardInfinity]

Class balance is all in the eye of the beholder and mostly irrelevant. Half the time the players on the forums cant even agree on class balance, let alone agree on "changes" that should occur. I think Bioware is and has been doing a bang up job so far and besides a few bugs, class balance is in a pretty good sweet spot. Every class has a spec that's viable in a team ranked environment, which is where it should be. It might not be YOUR favorite spec, but then again, whats teh definition of "viable"? Top 5%? top 10%?

 

Most of the time that will rely on player skill alone and not community perceived class imbalances.

 

I've just come back to the game after 15 months or so off and pretty much just jumped straight into PvPing. I have seen every class perform pretty well and in the hands of other players those same AC's have been played terribly. You can't balance player skill.

 

The thing that's amusing is that in the 15 months you've been gone, the status quo of class balance has not changed significantly since 1.2 (which was about 15 months ago). But I agree that most specs in the game are viable and that balance -- considering its done by literally one person -- has been pretty good albeit dreadfully slow on tweaking. The only two classes that are still overperforming are Smash and Sawbones, and they are both getting survivability nerfs based on what's been posted in the dev blog. Time will tell if these changes are enough.

[LadyDarkkitten]

I find these threads ironic, espec given ghostcrawlers twitter feed has been very active over pvp balance in wow. Literally hes said that balance is <<<< fun. Here we have some good class balance. Even the "terribad" concealment ops can be effective in the hands of a player that learned it properly and has the mindset to use it within its limitations.

 

I think Bioware did a real stand up job with our class balance, where every class can beat any other and the deciding factors are gear, wether they get help and player skill. Dont believe me? go check out what they are doing in wow and how they openly admit their design philosophy is to nerf classes that players hate facing. Class balance by populisim.

 

So here we get to why Swtor pvp is failing: gear> help> player skill. They fixed gear with bolster. Which has really improved things. There's still the issue that people running with 3 friends on voice chat, sticking together and watching out for each other totally destroy un-cordinated randoms. I think in no small part this is due to how they can time CC's to ensure the victim doesnt get to fight back or run. Lastly ofc is player skill.

 

Our wzs are small, arenas smaller and pvp population smaller still. The times I play I often play with and against the same 30ish people for over 10 games. There are people on my server flat out better then me and against whom I simply lose. All the time. If they are on the enemy team, the list of things I cant do includes guard a base, win the dam arena and enjoy myself if they make me their chew toy for the game. The answer to that ofc is league of legends style matchmaking, but how do we do that when the population is so low? Queue for the wzs> you are in the queue for a silver ranked match> 3 hrs later queue pops. Not fun right?

Edited October 26, 2013 by LadyDarkkitten

[Arlanon]

also:

 

3) lack of a suckass game engine

[Helig]

also:

 

3) lack of a suckass game engine

You mean the engine is good?

[AdmiralParmesan]

Class balance is in part perception, but to say it is all perception is misguided.

 

There are simple cases where some classes/specs not only have less ramp up time for their damage, but also hit harder. Disparities between defensive capabilities, damage, mobility and control obviously exist.

 

Even if class balance was only perception is that really a reason to give up on trying to balance at all?

[Yeochins]

The actual reason is because it gets boring after awhile.

 

1. Lack of tiered matchmaking. Its no fun for people fresh to PvP to be thrown against the premade of 2011 veterans. Similarly its no fun to play with people who don't know what they're doing.
   
2. Lack of engaging PvP. Huttball + 1 arena actually has depth (using the Z-axis). The rest of the maps are a 2D field with no real depth to them. 4v4's and 8v8's are pretty predictable. The 12v12 space PvP is a step in the right direction - though you really need to bring up the numbers to 16-16, or 32-32 to really make things engaging.
   
3. Lack of variety. The team sizes are too small to justify bringing classes of differing builds. There are a handful of cookie-cutter synergies which outperform others. Some of the most imbalanced games have balanced PvP by sheer virtue of giving each class something unique they can do and having a large player count (32 vs 32, 40 vs 40, 80 vs 80).
   

[AdmiralParmesan]

The actual reason is because it gets boring after awhile.

 

1. Lack of tiered matchmaking. Its no fun for people fresh to PvP to be thrown against the premade of 2011 veterans. Similarly its no fun to play with people who don't know what they're doing.
   
2. Lack of engaging PvP. Huttball + 1 arena actually has depth (using the Z-axis). The rest of the maps are a 2D field with no real depth to them. 4v4's and 8v8's are pretty predictable. The 12v12 space PvP is a step in the right direction - though you really need to bring up the numbers to 16-16, or 32-32 to really make things engaging.
   
3. Lack of variety. The team sizes are too small to justify bringing classes of differing builds. There are a handful of cookie-cutter synergies which outperform others. Some of the most imbalanced games have balanced PvP by sheer virtue of giving each class something unique they can do and having a large player count (32 vs 32, 40 vs 40, 80 vs 80).
   

 

While I agree bioware has already stated world pvp is not going to happen and team sizes that large are beyond what the game engine can handle without sever lag.

[Gnoblesse]

I see a lot of doom and gloom on the PvP forums but the one thing I don't see is anyone giving metrics as to what qualifies as "failing." What makes you think PvP is failing? I haven't notice an increase in normal queue times in over a year really, I see people complaining about pretty much the same things as they do on any other mmo's PvP forums. Maybe I'm missing the boat here but explain to me why PvP is "failing" (and the fact that you personally don't like something isn't evidence that something isn't working).

 

A couple of things-

 

Many of us have friends lists full to the brim of people who USED to PvP a lot in this game, but got frustrated and unsubbed. Also, the number of "please queue for ranked" requests in the general/pvp channels of certain servers, highly reminiscent of the 8v8 ranked days, only far sooner after the release of the content.

[Arlanon]

You mean the engine is good?

 

well lack of a NON suckass game engine. tbh i was so surprised that it let me say suckass that i totally missed it

Edited October 26, 2013 by Arlanon

[Sir-Coffee]

The Actual Reason PvP is failing:

 

1). The developers are bad at their own game.

2). They don't listen to feedback.

Edited October 26, 2013 by SithEBM

[Szadek]

While I agree bioware has already stated world pvp is not going to happen and team sizes that large are beyond what the game engine can handle without sever lag.

 

Well, They Deliver no World PVP, But they Still sell it to atract new players to game, They sell expectations but they dont deliver it!

 

Every day this game will have less and less active population @ lest on PVP, BW should Start Seling this game like onePVE game and Only pve.

 

Go ask some of the Top PVP guild's from PVP games if they even consider for a second to come and Play SWTOR?

The Answer Wil be obviously NO

 

Regards,

Edited October 26, 2013 by Szadek

[Szadek]

Class balance is in part perception, but to say it is all perception is misguided.

 

There are simple cases where some classes/specs not only have less ramp up time for their damage, but also hit harder. Disparities between defensive capabilities, damage, mobility and control obviously exist.

 

Even if class balance was only perception is that really a reason to give up on trying to balance at all?

 

Class balance is in part perception... Well wath Perception as to do with Skilled players with Sage going average in Arenas Vs any range skill Scoundrel player?

 

Wath Perception have to do with Sentinel Focus Vs Guardin Focus @ PVP, in surviability and dps?

 

...Ask Comandos for Perception...and you will see wath they tell you!

 

Compare Sage DPs Vs Slinger to a matter and then go perception.

 

Game it is Balance yes it is around the classes, but not around advanced Classes.

 

Regards,

Edited October 26, 2013 by Szadek

[orryko]

From reading this, most people understand all the problems.

 

The biggest by far is no cross server. Queue times are way too long once you're high rated, as someone mentioned in another thread. 4v4 is dead around certain times. Every night on pot5 you have to beg people to throw together a team. They can easily make cross server happen, they just have to be willing to spend the money, and with all the money they make from milking cartel nerds, I have no clue why it hasn't happened yet or isn't in the works. Oh wait, they always shaft pvp.

 

The second issue regarding balance...I'm in the minority where I think overall every class is balanced, you just need the right player in the right comp. Yes I think hybrid AP tank and smash are retard specs, but there is a huge difference between the average s keying variety and the people who REALLY know how to play those specs.

 

As someone else mentioned, Bioware's problem with balance is that they are all horrible at their own game. They have no clue what the real issues are. They should be asking for the advice from the top 1% on each server because true balance can only be achieved by the people who can maximize classes and specs. They also take way too long to fix things that obviously inflate certain specs, i.e. double stacking SA.

 

On an average late night on pot5, my ranged comp, whether it's merc/sorc or triple madness, BREAKS 4v4 ranked queue. People lose a couple times and they stop queuing altogether (watch twitch and see how much time we spend standing around in between queue pops). Last night we threw together sin hybrid tank, vengeance jugg, madness sorc, merc healer...just to coax people into playing and having a chance. This should be more than enough of a reason to put every server into some kind of mega cross server. People need to feel like they have a chance against people of similar skill level.

[t-darko]

World pvp, or the lack there of is not the actual reason that SwToR's pvp is not doing well. It has nothing to do with a PUG vs premade argument either. These complaints while valid are only symptoms of a larger problem; stagnation.

 

To break the overall issue into two problems it would be

 

1) Lack of cross sever pvp

2) Lack of sufficient class balancing on a timely basis

 

------------------

 

Lack of cross sever pvp is a large hamper to competitive pvp and even casual pvp on pve severs. Competitve pvp, as it suggests, requires other players interested in competition. Sadly this is a relatively small population within SwToR's community. It is a small population because for many pvpers in this game, this is their first MMO. In order to build upon ones skill it is often necessary to play against players of similar skill. When you are destroyed by a vastly superior team it is difficult to learn from as their are often many different dynamics as to why your team/you lost. Ranked from my understanding tries to match you up with players of similar skill but, this simply can not work when you do not have the actively queing player base needed to accurately match up players. You are just as likely to play the best players on your sever as the worst, which is a huge problem for those trying to get into pvp.

 

Can Bioware implement cross sever pvp? Probably not, from my understanding it is beyond their capability or else they would have already done it. Still this is a very limiting factor is this game's growth as it has been a set standard in MMOs for quite some time.

 

------------------

 

Class balance is, as most things in life, perception. These perceptional differences arise from varying levels of skill, understanding and teammate coordination that the player has to deal with. That being said there are some cases where perception can not argue with fact, that some classes are simply inferior in too many regards to others.

 

I believe the perfect example is actually DPS operatives/scoundrels. In the entire time that I played SwToR I can not recall one instance where a DPS op/scoun was ever desired for pvp. Perhaps it was when the game first came out and expertise buffs/adrenals stacked but that was almost two years ago and due more to a broken mechanic than the class operating efficiently. Simply put the damage aspect of the class has not worked well (PVE or PVP) and there seems to be no incoming buffs for dps either. However this does not only apply to dps scoundrel/op. Commandos and Sorcs are also prime candidates for receiving good quality of life changes, PT/Vanguard tanks (not the stupid hybrid in tank stance) could really use some help as well. In short this would not be a huge problem, after all not all classes can truly be competitive at one given time. However given that this game does not even have FOTM classes (it has flavor of the year classes) and the most balancing complaints are only met with "reroll" I think it is safe to say this is a huge problem.

 

How can you have an active pvp player base when most players don't even feel they can play they class/spec they want to? This is part of the reason that group ranked has dropped off the face of the earth, so many players feel they don't play classes/specs viable for a group. To a large extent they are correct.

------------------

 

To be fair lack of content is also an issue, however I feel that these two problems are more serious to the longevity of the game.

 

Must say I like your approach to these symptoms, but one of them is killing of the fun for those trying out PVP and would actually increase the player pool, this one is so right;

Hmm the main problem for me seems to be premades. When you can spend 3-4 hours playing only against the same republic premade all night it really kills the fun from the game.

 

this symptom need to be cured fast.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=690301

Edited October 26, 2013 by t-darko

[CrazyOldMystic]

Op you know very little about the pvp world. Class balance in pvp where have you been? Do I need to really explain how many patches a Major Gaming company like Blizzard Entertainment applied to wow in the name of balance, and always kept missing the target. This is swtor with a extremely lower number player base, and for this reason you will never see the insane amount of balance patchs you saw with wow. Balance is hardly the problem, the one problem everyone is starting to recognize, and wake up to in mmo pvp is crowd control. Where players are completely locked into place and then killed. Frankly I do not think this problem will ever solve itself. They cant kill the cc without killing the fun in some of these classes, and messing up the pve end of it. Your looking for balance in the wrong type of game. This being said it wont stop me from arguing balance here and there but I would not put it at the top of my pvp issues list. Oh and if they ever buff operatives damage with the amount of cc they already got, you can pretty much count on killing pvp completely.

 

As for cross realm not sure how that is going to help. The ranked gear aside from the trooper blaster rifle is 100 percent generic. So for me as a player its like why should I bother? It looks like something straight out of universe that is not star wars. Also until they fix the I win exploit in arenas where one stealther can kill off an entire team of three at sudden death. Most people are not going to bother with the ranked stuff.

 

What is world pvp? I can tell you one thing right now, and why it is a favorite, it has NO restrictions. First a world pvp zone is huge, Secondly it has no number restrictions, and this of course allows for guilds to set up events there. Also a good world pvp zone offers people a unique pvp reward. From my understanding when I was still deciding upon my main at launch. Illum had all these hallmarks. The only problem was first they never fixed the lag, and shortly after launch they dumped the unique pvp reward. They did all this because some kids wanted 100 percent fairness in faction world pvp. Time for a life lesson everyone has different time zones, and different times they play the game, so no matter what is done at some point one faction will just dominate such a zone.

 

If they want pvp to start looking up then they might want to start looking at the cc problem in pvp, get that gree junk and blast it off to oblivion, fix the illum world pvp zone, fix the arena exploit, and put some good looking ranked pvp rewards out there. Arena despite every armatures claim that this is going to fix swtors pvp, did not. It just took a base ball bat and broke another pvp leg in this game.

 

This of course is my opinion

[Kerensk]

To simplify mentioned class problems.

 

Commandos/Mercs - Difficulty casting

Sorc/Sage healing- Difficulty casting, limited defenses

Sorc/Sage dps- Difficulty casting, limited defenses, mobility shut down by roots

Operative dps- Terrible sustained damage, limited defenses

PT/Vanguard tank - Lack of burst, Lack of on demand defensive cooldowns

 

Obviously there are more problems out there. This is just to clarify in a simplified manner.

Commando and Sorc DPS are my main toons and I like where they're at balance wise. If you're having issues casting with them you're playing the character wrong.

 

Sorc has good defenses and great mobility in a pinch, it can be stopped by roots and stuns but so can everyone. Plus force sprint has a short cooldown, except for the agent/Smuggler roll they can scoot around a warzone better than most.

 

I hate when people say "X character sucks" only because they never bothered to learn it's complexities or are expecting them to be a class they can face-roll and get performance out of.

 

Once you learn the depth of a "bad class" like the sorc you can throw bubbles on your entire team (DPS deflected counts as healing), yank a friendly ball carrier to a safe catwalk, sprint ahead of him through the fire trap, barrier up to weather any attacks, receive the passed Huttball, and sprint to the end zone. All in one class that can also be a DPS hero.

 

I really wish bads wouldn't complain about classes they don't know how to play.