Anti Murder Measures.

[Fevee]

I'm sure everyone in the game can relate to this:

 

You're walking along, doing your missions and fighting NPCs. You may be in contested territory on a PvP server, but you're sure you're ready if someone comes along. Then all of a sudden, a red-tagged entity appears right behind you. Half a second later, you're laying on the ground, dead.

 

Don't tell me that's PvP. PvP stands for Player Versus Player. Versus means a match, a match means similar strength. When players sign up for a PvP server, they get a warning that other player may attack them. But you have to realize that said player signing up is thinking something along the lines of Other players will attack me? Well, by the time I get to a level 20 planet, I should be level 20, myself. And so should any enemy players. So I'll be running around on the lookout for like-leveled players to match.

 

Oh, how sadly mistaken our newcomer is. If only he knew he was signing up for a Player Exterminate Player server. That's not a match; that's murder. Don't even get me started when a team of 4 level 55s start preying on those 25 levels below them. But anyways, I think there's a solution to discourage such behavior.

 

Since it's obvious our friendly level 55 is afraid of the level 20 he's passing by, we should let others know what kind of a person he is. We have player A and player Z, if these two engage in a battle, and it ends in three seconds (or less) or under three moves (or less), it's obvious one of them was way over the level of the other. If Player Z was the aggressor, and Player Z won in a blink of an eye, Player Z is awarded with a debuff called Spineless. This debuff persists through defeat for perhaps 10 minutes, and it works like a reverse bolster buff. It would read out something like Is afraid of level <Insert Player A's level here>s. And the effect it gives? It simply tones down the player's stats and power to one level below their victim's level. Like how Bolster boosts you up to level 55, Spineless drags you down the appropriate level. However, if Player A is the aggressor, then Player Z is only acting in retaliation; and is exempt from receiving the Spineless debuff. So if the little guy has the guts to challenge you, then you're free to stomp him into dust.

 

I say the count of time and moves because both are relevant to the variables of murdering young-level players. Player Z's ambush can happen quickly, and use a lot of low-powered moves that still defeat the victim in such short time. Or Player Z can attack slowly with first a stun move, then stopping to watch them for the duration of the stun effect. Then finally moving on to the next move, possibly another stun/immobilizer. So while it may have taken 30 seconds, Player A was still massacred in a very short count of moves.

 

I really hope for something like this to be implemented, it would put young-level players' mind at ease, knowing they're fairly off the menu for the higher-level players. The count of three seconds/moves is just a shot-in-the-dark guess, a bit of research to find an appropriate count would be wise. After all, you all realize that near-level players can't kill eachother that quickly/efficiently even if one let the other try. And high-level differences between players means they can't really kill them without such lethality that the level difference provides.

[Corsiero]

Don't roll on a PvP server then, simple. PvP servers attract those kinds of people. The kind that get off humiliating players smaller than them. They are the bullies of the virtual world waggin their epeens and showing how awesome they are picking on lowbies. If that isn't for you, try another server, otherwise, deal with it.

[CrazyMcGee]

I know it's probably the standard response you were dreading, but...

 

You rolled on a PVP server. The point is, anyone can kill you basically any time.

 

Sounds to me like you'd enjoy a PVE server. If you only want fair, levelled matches, then PVE is your best bet.

[Fevee]

Don't roll on a PvP server then, simple. PvP servers attract those kinds of people. The kind that get off humiliating players smaller than them. They are the bullies of the virtual world waggin their epeens and showing how awesome they are picking on lowbies. If that isn't for you, try another server, otherwise, deal with it.

 

Isn't this exactly the point of my suggestion? To put a monkey wrench in those gears?

 

You rolled on a PVP server. The point is, anyone can kill you basically any time.

 

Do I need to repeat myself on what Player Versus Player means? Sure, people can kill me. But I'd rather it be someone maybe 3 levels above me; someone I stand a chance of defending myself against; or at least escaping from.

 

If you only want fair, levelled matches, then PVE is your best bet.

 

PVE, no one except the level 55s flag themselves for PVP. It's extremes in both directions, either I never fight another player outside of warzones, or I sign up for local extermination. A rule like this would discourage cowardly preying so players can enjoy matching against like-leveled combatants; or at least coming back to get even with their murderer.

[spectreclees]

I'm going to do what you told me not to do and say it is PvP. The idea of a PvP server is to make the galactic conflict real as possible. If a Sith comes across a Jedi on his own, you think he'll just say "Ah, I'll give him a pass he's attacking a mob!" No, of course not. Level or not you were killed by another player, thus PvP.

 

Don't roll PvP servers if you are not okay with ganking. It is considered by all means PvP and it happened. The description of PvP servers when you create a character on one shows it.

Edited October 25, 2013 by spectreclees

[AnrDaemon]

PvP servers attract those kinds of people.

It's not "PvP server", it's actions without consequences attract "these kinds of people".

In real pvp games, mindless slaughter is severely punished.

[spectreclees]

It's not "PvP server", it's actions without consequences attract "these kinds of people".

In real pvp games, mindless slaughter is severely punished.

 

Give an example? I don't know of any.

[AnrDaemon]

Example of what? Can you please be more specific?

Sorry, I'm a bit swamped and can't think straight.

Examples of true pvp games? Lineage2, EVE Online.

How they deal with crimes?

If you commit a crime (kill an opponent that did not fought back) in L2, you increase your karma counter, and kill counter. At centain threshold of karma, you can't enter cities, guards will attack and likely kill you. And when you are killed, you drop a number of items from your backpack. The more, the higher your karma. Kill counter is also a punishment (there's two different counters - for pvp ("honorable") kills, and for "murder kills"), starting from 6 kills, you drop items from death, even if you die with no karma.

In EVE, if you commit a crime in lawful space, you will be intercepted by CONCORD (NPC police). If you, somehow, survive encounter with CONCORD (which is supposed to be not possible), you can be banned for violating the game rules.

Edited October 25, 2013 by AnrDaemon

[Gardrenn]

I can see where the OP is coming from on this one. He isn't claiming that said high level shouldn't be able to attack someone. He didn't ask for them to lose all talents/skills above the level of the target. He simply asked they be brought to an even playing field in terms of level scaling. You know, so you can even hit them...

[spectreclees]

Example of what? Can you please be more specific?

Sorry, I'm a bit swamped and can't think straight.

Examples of true pvp games? Lineage2, EVE Online.

How they deal with crimes?

If you commit a crime (kill an opponent that did not fought back) in L2, you increase your karma counter, and kill counter. At centain threshold of karma, you can't enter cities, guards will attack and likely kill you. And when you are killed, you drop a number of items from your backpack. The more, the higher your karma. Kill counter is also a punishment (there's two different counters - for pvp ("honorable") kills, and for "murder kills"), starting from 6 kills, you drop items from death, even if you die with no karma.

In EVE, if you commit a crime in lawful space, you will be intercepted by CONCORD (NPC police). If you, somehow, survive encounter with CONCORD (which is supposed to be not possible), you can be banned for violating the game rules.

 

I would never AFK in a non safe area while playing on a pvp server. It's just common sense. If those games do that, then that is just silly.

[JPryde]

But as you take EVE as an example... rolling on a PvP server in SWTOR is the same as taking the jumpgate to low sec or null sec in EVE. You consent to be killable by going through that gate and the gate camp on the other side does not suffer any consequences for killing you... they however are attackable of course, but that is the same for the assassin who jumps the OP.

 

This kind of behaviour however is why I stopped playing on PvP servers. The old "red = dead" mentality just doesn't do it for me. Killing an opponent who obviously doesn't have any chance is no achievement and I will not play on a PvP server just for mass slaughtering.

 

The behaviour of the Killers however is perfectly legitimate and expecting only fair fights on a PvP server (or anywhere else) is silly.

 

As we said in EVE:

1: If you find yourself in a fair fight, you planned wrong.

2: If brute force is no solution, you are not applying enough of it.

[AnrDaemon]

I would never AFK in a non safe area while playing on a pvp server. It's just common sense. If those games do that, then that is just silly.

 

Being AFK or not doesn't help you againt one top-level idiot bored from linearity of this game, unable to help themself out of it, and having nothing better to do than to kill everything he see.

[AnrDaemon]

But as you take EVE as an example... rolling on a PvP server in SWTOR is the same as taking the jumpgate to low sec or null sec in EVE. You consent to be killable by going through that gate and the gate camp on the other side does not suffer any consequences for killing you... they however are attackable of course, but that is the same for the assassin who jumps the OP.

 

This kind of behaviour however is why I stopped playing on PvP servers. The old "red = dead" mentality just doesn't do it for me. Killing an opponent who obviously doesn't have any chance is no achievement and I will not play on a PvP server just for mass slaughtering.

 

The behaviour of the Killers however is perfectly legitimate and expecting only fair fights on a PvP server (or anywhere else) is silly.

 

As we said in EVE:

1: If you find yourself in a fair fight, you planned wrong.

2: If brute force is no solution, you are not applying enough of it.

 

You forgot one thing: In EVE, you CAN avoid combat, defend yourself, or at least escape from encounter, most of the time. This, assuming you are not complete idiot, however.

The difference lies in the possibility, not outcome. In SWTOR, you CAN NOT even THINK of defending yourself against some bored highlevel, can not escape the fight, and your only way to avoid it is to never login.

And fight is never fair, BTW.

 

Forgot to add, we're not discussing lawless space. The issue raised in OP was "honorless" kills.

Edited October 25, 2013 by AnrDaemon

[JPryde]

Getting into a gate camp of 10+ vessels with your T3 will also not result in any honorable fight and the chance that you can escape it is slim at best... your best chance is to not fall for the trap at all.

 

But yes, I agree, the overall menthality on PvP servers is sick (and sickening) and growing worse. Trash talk is frequently proclaimed to be "mandatory" when engaging in PvP. Killing defenseless people is considered "good sports".

 

The only way to counter it is obvious though... do not be alone.... but even then, most lame assassins would just go for "I will take one out, before I die!" and call that a win.

 

In my humbly opinion, everyone who is getting enjoyment out of destroying someone elses enjoyment is a real poor soul.

[AnrDaemon]

Getting into a gate camp of 10+ vessels with your T3 will also not result in any honorable fight and the chance that you can escape it is slim at best...

 

Let's not start the "my daddy is stronger than your daddy" discussion.

I've been flying through 10, 20, 30 men camps unscathed. And been failing to a lone 'cane.

I don't see this dicussion as productive, on either end of the outcome.

[hallucigenocide]

people get too upset about these things.. crap happens.. just shrug it off and go on with your business.. it's not like you die irl. and so what if some immature player decides to camp you? switch instance or tab out for a bit..

[AnrDaemon]

people get too upset about these things.. crap happens.. just shrug it off and go on with your business.. it's not like you die irl. and so what if some immature player decides to camp you? switch instance or tab out for a bit..

Why don't go a step further in your logic and just forget this game even exists, then?

[hallucigenocide]

Why don't go a step further in your logic and just forget this game even exists, then?

 

sure why not? there's no point in rolling on a pvp server if you wish to never engage in it.. fair fight or not has nothing to do with it.. if this games pvp was meant to be fair there'd be no levels and all classes would be equal.

[ceickerman]

I don't think it would be unreasonable for someone to take a hit to their valor if they take out an opponent that is lower than say 7 levels from the attackers level unless the lower player starts it of course... If you're a 45 and you attack a 55 you got it coming.

[Helig]

Since it's obvious our friendly level 55 is afraid of the level 20 he's passing by, we should let others know what kind of a person he is. We have player A and player Z, if these two engage in a battle, and it ends in three seconds (or less) or under three moves (or less), it's obvious one of them was way over the level of the other. If Player Z was the aggressor, and Player Z won in a blink of an eye, Player Z is awarded with a debuff called Spineless. This debuff persists through defeat for perhaps 10 minutes, and it works like a reverse bolster buff. It would read out something like Is afraid of level <Insert Player A's level here>s. And the effect it gives? It simply tones down the player's stats and power to one level below their victim's level. Like how Bolster boosts you up to level 55, Spineless drags you down the appropriate level. However, if Player A is the aggressor, then Player Z is only acting in retaliation; and is exempt from receiving the Spineless debuff. So if the little guy has the guts to challenge you, then you're free to stomp him into dust.

 

Would be fun if the higher level person's stats were reduced (de-bolstered) to the level of the person that he's ganked (assuming the level difference is, like 5 levels or greater).

 

"So I herd u liek level 29s, how about you fight level 29s while being level 29!", the buff would say, if he ganks a 29 on his 55

Edited October 25, 2013 by Helig

[Fevee]

I'm going to do what you told me not to do and say it is PvP. The idea of a PvP server is to make the galactic conflict real as possible.

 

This game is unique, from what I've seen. If they were trying to make it as real as possible, lightsabers would be one-hit kills like in Star Wars: Battlefront (Insert favorite roman numeral here), or the Jedi Knight series, or probably any other game with a saber-wielding Jedi in it. It it a PvP server, I signed up to fight other players; not be executed by them.

 

If you commit a crime (kill an opponent that did not fought back)

 

It's not about not fighting back. Someone else said something about AFKing in dangerous zones. If Player A just stood there for the whole minute and 52 moves it took for Player Z to kill him, he was obviously not there to respond. But, again, it's about getting one-hit killed out of the blue.

 

This kind of behavior however is why I stopped playing on PvP servers.

 

See? Some people just brand me a complainer, others agree, others have given up hope for PvP servers. I'm just trying to suggest something to make said servers more trustworthy.

 

I don't think it would be unreasonable for someone to take a hit to their valor if they take out an opponent that is lower than say 7 levels from the attackers level unless the lower player starts it of course... If you're a 45 and you attack a 55 you got it coming.

 

Would be fun if the higher level person's stats were reduced (de-bolstered) to the level of the person that he's ganked (assuming the level difference is, like 5 levels or greater).

 

I'm not completely sure, but even a 10-level difference lasts longer than two hits and one second of battle time. I'm not completely "baby-proofing" the game; just suggesting a good measure against the ridiculous poaching that endgame players are getting a reputation for.

[Starglitter]

Mmm...

 

The problem with PvP which is common in all MMORPGs is that many of us have a concept of "sportsmanship" but few of us observe it or even want it, when it comes down to it.

 

A battle worth remembering is one where you prowess made the difference between vicotry and defeat. If so. then true PvP players would want their oppossition to be the same level and equally geared as a minimum, also would want the opposition's class to be balanced against his; otherwise where is the sportsmanship in this?

 

I have often contended that PvP gear should be the same as PvE gear, so there is no "elite" sets of gear that by default demolishes any sense of fair competition. If anything "elitist" gear limits those players willing to entry the field of PvP since they would have to endure being murdered by superior equipped players on and on until they can gear up.

 

The problem,as i see it, is that not all players believe in sporting behavior. They are just as proud at defeating a level 1 with their ubber geared level 55 as any other player who fought a battle toe to toe. I think this is what the OP has issues with, and in an unjudging PvP environment, it simply comes with the territory.

 

If SWTOR was a medieval game with hard codes of chivalry, then those cowardly knights going around attacking their known inferiors would be ridiculed and despised. But SWTOR and chivalry has absolutely nothing in common, and in the story world of SWTOR the average Sith is a bully by definition and sportmanship is always far from their minds...

 

In some games, i seen a flagging set used, so when a bully PvP player enters a town or civilized area they are aassaulted by NPC guards and killed, in other games they suffer experience penalties, I seen where your stats and skills are percent penalized based on how abusive the murder was; would be interesting to see this done, but not sure it would be appropriate.

 

Sue.

[Fevee]

The problem,as i see it, is that not all players believe in sporting behavior. They are just as proud at defeating a level 1 with their ubber geared level 55 as any other player who fought a battle toe to toe.

 

Well that's the point of this debuff, because there are level 55s who poach young-level players in the first place. I don't care how proud they are, they'll be less inclined to do it if they suffer consequences. And I'm willing to say that anyone who is opposed to this idea is simply one of those proud poachers out there. Don't hide under the excuse of "Oh, it's a PvP server", grow a backbone and pick one someone, at most, ten levels below you. Since that seems to be the only way they can win against other players.

 

I'm not talking to you, specifically, Starglitter, I'm talking to the anonymous level 55 running around preying on defenseless players. Anyways, I hear that for every one person willing to write up about it, many many others are feeling the same way. So you (now I'm talking to the guys in charge of the game) can consider that numerous players suffer this situation.

[Jhelana]

I know a lot of people are saying, "Don't roll on a PvP server" and "That's what PvP is", but I wanted to say: I agree with the OP.

 

Mind you, I'm a noob; this is my first MMO, and I've only been playing for a few months. Still, PvP and Warzones just aren't my thing - I know they are for some people, and more power to 'em.

 

I mainly do PvE on the Republic side, but I can't tell you how many times I've had folks from the opposing faction, usually toons who around 15-20 levels above me (if not more), challenge me to a duel. Repeatedly. Over and over. Yes, yes, /ignore is always an option, but that's just balm on the surface of the problem, not addressing the actual issue.

 

(A few times, I've apparently entered into a duel (because, apparently, my reflexes apparently aren't fast enough to click "Decline"), and have been obliterated in a matter of seconds by a 55 level toon.)

[Fevee]

... but I can't tell you how many times I've had folks from the opposing faction, usually toons who around 15-20 levels above me (if not more), challenge me to a duel.

 

I addressed that in a different suggestion I called Bolstered Duels. Where, if selected, both parties gain the bolstered stat for the duration of the duel. That way, you don't have to stop and inspect other players for their level, you can accept spontaneous duel invites and know you at least stand a chance.

 

It didn't receive much attention, but that's a separate suggestion for another thread.