Bioware's monday morning.

[BJWyler]

Not really. "Haters" generally begin by complaining about something to do with the game. "White Knights" are attacking the complainers. Pick pretty much any thread on this forum and you'll see it for yourself. It's not subtle and it's not rare. It's being going on since Day 1 by the same people with seemingly no repercussions or consequences.

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

 

Growing up I used to hang out at gaming arcades. When someone lost or was having a bad day and created a ruckus one simply ignored them. When they went around the room and starting slapping customers around and calling them stupid for spending their money there, one asked them to go away. If they persisted one simply put fist to larynx and made them go away. When they brought friends back to trash the place, one called the cops. Freedom of speech has nothing to do with conduct.

 

Oh my God! The flashbacks I just had. Don't ever mention this again!!

Edited October 22, 2013 by BJWyler

[GalacticKegger]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

It's the pot calling the kettle black to deflect suspicion. Accusing others of transgressions they do themselves is a grade school "he did it!" move that doesn't work on grown ups. They're not being oppressed, their incessant malevolence (not their ideas) is simply being called out. They conduct themselves like delinquents who get caught tagging a school wall by another student, only to publicly bash the school and its students for being turned in. In real life people like that go to jail. Edited October 22, 2013 by GalacticKegger

[Brickabrack]

I mean, you wake up, hit your work desk on a monday morning, which hits like a truck for everyone, and first thing you got to do is go through the piles of whining, entitlment, swearing, and all sorts of messages, polite or not, which all bring down to the same message " your game sucks , blah blah blah "

 

Give'em a break.

 

Actually that's the morning of the communication team. The developers don't really look because they are busy making the game. The community team sends the developers pertinent posts and the developers get the rest of their data from metrics using the tools available to them that allows them to see player behavior.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Brickabrack

[TUXs]

Not really. "Haters" generally begin by complaining about something to do with the game. "White Knights" are attacking the complainers. Pick pretty much any thread on this forum and you'll see it for yourself. It's not subtle and it's not rare. It's being going on since Day 1 by the same people with seemingly no repercussions or consequences.

 

I would agree...it's quite obvious. Your 1-3 post was spot on too CK.

[curtkram]

Ultimately, I think it best that BioWare remain as lenient as is feasible. We'll just have to continue to rely on the "White Knights" to provide some counter-balance to the truly infantile people who live here.

 

i'm pretty sure the white knights are the haters.

 

when someone posts "bioware sucks. inquisitors are unbalanced" this could lead to a couple reactions:

 

1. white knights will focus on "bioware sucks" and attack the poster. they might talk about things like failed logic in assessing the sucking ability of bioware or "rights," obviously having no understanding of what logic is or what rights are. you can't be too bright to be a white knight.

 

2. focus on "inquisitors are unbalanced."

2a. maybe the person thinks inquisitors are unbalanced because they're level 20 and haven't picked an advance class. most of us could help explain how to rectify that situation. the haters and white knights would more likely tell the person to quit, go play wow, l2p, etc. if you want people to enjoy the game, that's not what you should say.

2b. maybe they have a dps sorc, and they're concerned about balance because sorc dps is not a viable class compared to other strictly dps classes. that is a valid concern. if you're a white knight or a hater, you might not understand that. it would be good for our community and the community relation team to have a more open conversation about what we expect for a sorc dps class and what the developer's goals are.

 

the moral of the story is, if you like the game, quit trying to be a white knight, read the posts you're replying to, and try to understand what people are communicating. then help the people posting. remember, all those people criticizing the game have these three things in common:

1. they are paying for a subscription

2. they might be frustrated, but they didn't just quit and walk away. something is keeping them around.

3. they want to communicate. they're probably looking for help, or an avenue to vent, or a way to attract the attention of the developers. there is something there, and if you think it's just childish banter, it's because you haven't figured out what they're trying to say.

 

if the forums were nothing but white knights:

People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

 

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is. Especially watch out for the ones who tell you that nobody understands your genius.

 

Honestly, this is going to sound horrible, but self-doubt is one of your most powerful tools for craftsmanship. None of the designers you admire feel self-confident about their work in that way. None of them think that they are awesome. They all suffer from impostor complexes the size of the Titanic.

 

I am not saying that you need to lack confidence in yourself. (Heck, you’ll never put anything out if that’s the case! You need to have the arrogance to assume anyone will care in the first place). I am saying that nobody is ever done learning, and people who tell you you have arrived will give you a sense of complacency. You should never be complacent about your art.

[CosmicKat]

Growing up I used to hang out at gaming arcades. When someone lost or was having a bad day and created a ruckus one simply ignored them. When they went around the room and starting slapping customers around and calling them stupid for spending their money there, one asked them to go away. If they persisted one simply put fist to larynx and made them go away. When they brought friends back to trash the place, one called the cops. Freedom of speech has nothing to do with conduct.

 

Now if that arcade had 3 undercover employees wandering around the place, with thesaurus in hand, to belittle and berate the players for every lost life or "tilt", it might be analogous to these forums. Oh, and an emo hipster dude in the corner to mumble "if you don't like it, just leave" to everyone as well.

[Jimvinny]

i'm pretty sure the white knights are the haters.

 

when someone posts "bioware sucks. inquisitors are unbalanced" this could lead to a couple reactions:

 

1. white knights will focus on "bioware sucks" and attack the poster. they might talk about things like failed logic in assessing the sucking ability of bioware or "rights," obviously having no understanding of what logic is or what rights are. you can't be too bright to be a white knight.

 

2. focus on "inquisitors are unbalanced."

2a. maybe the person thinks inquisitors are unbalanced because they're level 20 and haven't picked an advance class. most of us could help explain how to rectify that situation. the haters and white knights would more likely tell the person to quit, go play wow, l2p, etc. if you want people to enjoy the game, that's not what you should say.

2b. maybe they have a dps sorc, and they're concerned about balance because sorc dps is not a viable class compared to other strictly dps classes. that is a valid concern. if you're a white knight or a hater, you might not understand that. it would be good for our community and the community relation team to have a more open conversation about what we expect for a sorc dps class and what the developer's goals are.

 

the moral of the story is, if you like the game, quit trying to be a white knight, read the posts you're replying to, and try to understand what people are communicating. then help the people posting. remember, all those people criticizing the game have these three things in common:

1. they are paying for a subscription

2. they might be frustrated, but they didn't just quit and walk away. something is keeping them around.

3. they want to communicate. they're probably looking for help, or an avenue to vent, or a way to attract the attention of the developers. there is something there, and if you think it's just childish banter, it's because you haven't figured out what they're trying to say.

 

if the forums were nothing but white knights:

 

If someone is going to post "bioware sucks, inquisitors are unbalanced," They don't deserve anyone's time. It's not constructive, it's whiny, and they should be ridiculed and belittled for posting something so stupid. If you want a serious answer, ask a serious question.

[Jimvinny]

Now if that arcade had 3 undercover employees wandering around the place, with thesaurus in hand, to belittle and berate the players for every lost life or "tilt", it might be analogous to these forums. Oh, and an emo hipster dude in the corner to mumble "if you don't like it, just leave" to everyone as well.

 

Lose the tinfoil hat and ditch the victim card. They're not very becoming.

[CosmicKat]

Lose the tinfoil hat and ditch the victim card. They're not very becoming.

 

On the contrary. I find the obvious ringers to be highly entertaining and often downright hilarious in their antics. I also think they have exactly the opposite effect of their intent, this board would die of neglect without them.

[Andryah]

Not really. "Haters" generally begin by complaining about something to do with the game. "White Knights" are attacking the complainers. Pick pretty much any thread on this forum and you'll see it for yourself. It's not subtle and it's not rare. It's being going on since Day 1 by the same people with seemingly no repercussions or consequences.

 

Speak for yourself.

 

While I have no issue with returning snark for snark when it's tossed my way, I rarely discuss the person.. but rather what is coming out of their computer and into the internet. The text hitting the forum is much more discussable then some random unknown player behind the text. Being human, I do of course stray at times (and am reminded accordingly by a forum Mod) but that is the exception not the rule.

 

Also.. there is a lot of projection taking place in the forum. You say one thing.. and someone echos back something completely different accusing you of saying it. So there is a general reading comprehension problem in the forum, more so with some members then others.

[GalacticKegger]

Now if that arcade had 3 undercover employees wandering around the place, with thesaurus in hand, to belittle and berate the players for every lost life or "tilt", it might be analogous to these forums. Oh, and an emo hipster dude in the corner to mumble "if you don't like it, just leave" to everyone as well.

They aren't belittling or berating anyone for lost lives or tilts. They are simply getting in the grills of those who hide their trashing the place behind trying to sound like they play enough to blend in, and telling them (asking did nothing) to either take it up with management directly or take it outside.

 

I would love to see a Youtube video go viral of your reaction to someone who spends every waking moment camping in your home badmouthing your party & accosting your houseguests while plastering the walls with "CosmicKrap Sucks" bumper stickers because they don't think the beverages you're serving are wet enough.

 

And that emo hipster dude in the corner ... it's the internet. He could be anything.

Edited October 24, 2013 by GalacticKegger

[Andryah]

Now if that arcade had 3 undercover employees wandering around the place, with thesaurus in hand, to belittle and berate the players for every lost life or "tilt", it might be analogous to these forums.

 

LOL.. that meme never gets old for some I guess.

 

I guess.. if we were to apply this claim to it's logical consistency.. then people who never say anything good about the game MUST be undercover employees of competing companies... right?

 

Oh, and an emo hipster dude in the corner to mumble "if you don't like it, just leave" to everyone as well.

 

Heh, TUXs told someone this this morning.. does that make him an undercover employee too?

 

It's the internet. Symptoms are not causes. More often symptoms are misplaced assumption and opinion.

[TUXs]

Heh, TUXs told someone this this morning.. does that make him an undercover employee too?

 

Yes it does, now show me some respect.

 

Actually, he has me on perma ignore, but I figured I'd clarify...my comment today was to someone who wished Bioware would remove ALL PvP from the game because of his jealousy over the SSSP being PvP oriented. It was tongue-in-cheek, meant to point out the hypocrisy I saw in his "I want all PvPers gone" comment.

[mmjarec]

Theu shouldnt even have forums. That way the goonies can keep thwir idols feet out of the fire. They could iustxupdate via patche seeing how they ignore everyone anyway. It dont take four seconds to hit repl and type read biut sehow even that is too much to ask

[curtkram]

If someone is going to post "bioware sucks, inquisitors are unbalanced," They don't deserve anyone's time. It's not constructive, it's whiny, and they should be ridiculed and belittled for posting something so stupid. If you want a serious answer, ask a serious question.

 

that kind of makes you part of the problem then doesn't it? perhaps that is a difficult concept to fathom.

[GalacticKegger]

that kind of makes you part of the problem then doesn't it? perhaps that is a difficult concept to fathom.

"Inquisitors are unbalanced" sure merits a look if they also describe how and why. "Bioware sucks" ... not so much. Edited October 22, 2013 by GalacticKegger

[Arkerus]

LOL.. that meme never gets old for some I guess.

 

I guess.. if we were to apply this claim to it's logical consistency.. then people who never say anything good about the game MUST be undercover employees of competing companies... right?

 

 

 

Heh, TUXs told someone this this morning.. does that make him an undercover employee too?

 

It's the internet. Symptoms are not causes. More often symptoms are misplaced assumption and opinion.

 

People call you an employee to try and justify their unreasonable requests or criticism. They just don't like being told what they are asking for or trying to prove is completely unreasonable or so off base its not worth talking about.

[Arkerus]

Theu shouldnt even have forums. That way the goonies can keep thwir idols feet out of the fire. They could iustxupdate via patche seeing how they ignore everyone anyway. It dont take four seconds to hit repl and type read biut sehow even that is too much to ask

 

What is this? I don't even...

[BJWyler]

i'm pretty sure the white knights are the haters.

 

when someone posts "bioware sucks. inquisitors are unbalanced" this could lead to a couple reactions:

 

1. white knights will focus on "bioware sucks" and attack the poster. they might talk about things like failed logic in assessing the sucking ability of bioware or "rights," obviously having no understanding of what logic is or what rights are. you can't be too bright to be a white knight.

 

2. focus on "inquisitors are unbalanced."

2a. maybe the person thinks inquisitors are unbalanced because they're level 20 and haven't picked an advance class. most of us could help explain how to rectify that situation. the haters and white knights would more likely tell the person to quit, go play wow, l2p, etc. if you want people to enjoy the game, that's not what you should say.

2b. maybe they have a dps sorc, and they're concerned about balance because sorc dps is not a viable class compared to other strictly dps classes. that is a valid concern. if you're a white knight or a hater, you might not understand that. it would be good for our community and the community relation team to have a more open conversation about what we expect for a sorc dps class and what the developer's goals are.

 

the moral of the story is, if you like the game, quit trying to be a white knight, read the posts you're replying to, and try to understand what people are communicating. then help the people posting. remember, all those people criticizing the game have these three things in common:

1. they are paying for a subscription

2. they might be frustrated, but they didn't just quit and walk away. something is keeping them around.

3. they want to communicate. they're probably looking for help, or an avenue to vent, or a way to attract the attention of the developers. there is something there, and if you think it's just childish banter, it's because you haven't figured out what they're trying to say.

 

I would add to that, if someone is going to post, then understand that the tone of the post will set the tone of the responses, White Knights notwithstanding. That's just human nature, and thus why I try to remain clear, concise, and above all civil, when attempting to communicate. I don't always succeed, but at least I am making the effort on a consistent basis.

 

Understand that what you may want may (and in fact probably isn't) wanted by everyone, including BioWare, therefore, expect to have counterarguments and to back up your desires with facts - not conjecture and speculation.

 

When providing reasons for why you feel the way you do (or want/don't want a particular feature), try to be as clear and concise as you can - that helps everyone get a better understanding of what you want and helps to avoid those misunderstandings that can derail threads quickly.

 

Saying BioWare sucks is one thing, even if you don't necessarily back up the comment with the reasons for why you think so. And again, understand that if you don't, then you should expect to get flamed until you do. We all understand what it feels to be frustrated - we have all been there - so I think we can we can forgive the occasional transgression. However, continued transgressions will beget continued flaming - that's human nature.

 

Some posts go beyond the simple "BioWare sucks, and here's why..." Understand that some people feel that such crossings of such lines to be uncivil and will respond as they feel appropriately. Again, human nature.

 

I guess the moral of this is that if you want an intelligent and civilized conversation, then one should probably post in such a manner. It takes two people to have a civilized conversation. There will always be trolls - that can't be helped and that is why there is an /ignore option. It also takes two people for the conversation to devolve into useless belligerence. The question is - are you going to be the one to take the high road, or are you going to be part of the problem?

[The_Grand_Nagus]

I would add to that, if someone is going to post, then understand that the tone of the post will set the tone of the responses, White Knights notwithstanding.

 

Only if you are a psychological slave, letting other people control you. Even if someone posts in an irrational tone, you still have the choice to reply in a rational manner. Or, you could let that person control you, and force you to reply in a similar tone, like you just said.

[CosmicKat]

People call you an employee to try and justify their unreasonable requests or criticism. They just don't like being told what they are asking for or trying to prove is completely unreasonable or so off base its not worth talking about.

 

No. People call others employees because...

 

1) It's pretty funny.

2) It annoys people that we want to annoy in revenge for being annoyed.

3) If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... it's probably a duck.

[Ktama]

I mean, you wake up, hit your work desk on a monday morning, which hits like a truck for everyone, and first thing you got to do is go through the piles of whining, entitlment, swearing, and all sorts of messages, polite or not, which all bring down to the same message " your game sucks , blah blah blah "

 

Give'em a break.

 

As a paying customer i have every right to complain about anything and everything, this is a golden rule since commerce was invented, the customer is king and the customer is always right, you make it sound like they are poor victims.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Ktama

[CosmicKat]

...

 

Heh, TUXs told someone this this morning.. does that make him an undercover employee too?

 

 

Maybe. I've been accused of being a Blizzard employee, which is entirely hilarious since I've referred to WoW as a "plague on all humanity", as opposed to TOR, which barely rates as "a case of the sniffles".

[BJWyler]

Only if you are a psychological slave, letting other people control you. Even if someone posts in an irrational tone, you still have the choice to reply in a rational manner. Or, you could let that person control you, and force you to reply in a similar tone, like you just said.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

Exactly! Just the same as the person making the initial post also has that choice.

 

3) If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... it's probably a duck.

Actually, "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands."

 

the customer is king and the customer is always right,

That was an ideal to aspire to. That is not always the case - in fact I have found that the customer is wrong just as often as they are right. A business that operates purely upon the ideal without accepting the reality of the situation is a business that won't be around for long.

Edited October 22, 2013 by BJWyler

[curtkram]

Maybe. I've been accused of being a Blizzard employee, which is entirely hilarious since I've referred to WoW as a "plague on all humanity", as opposed to TOR, which barely rates as "a case of the sniffles".

 

i would figure that's what a blizzard employee would say