If Scoundrels were never intended to use cover after lvl 10......

[stormdrakelord]

IF it's all the same, I won't take advice on playing Scoundrel from someone so plainly ignorant of the class.

 

Perhaps you should try learning how to use Sabo Charge effectively. Now THAT is helpful advice.

 

I checked the specs. The Dirty fighting is mostly DoT, and nowhere is it put in there what "buff" sabotage charge gets from it, because it gets none from it, nor does it get a buff from scrapper. IF it needs to be a non-cover ability, make a talent of the scrapper tree that does that. They need it more that the DoT spec.

 

From what I see the big numbers come from Sabslingers who spend points into the talents that make it hard hitting. Show me a spec where Sabotage charge is used enough times as a dirty fighter or scrapper to justify calling it a "staple" of the spec. all the good abilities are the classes staples.

[CaptainApop]

I checked the specs. The Dirty fighting is mostly DoT, and nowhere is it put in there what "buff" sabotage charge gets from it, because it gets none from it, nor does it get a buff from scrapper. IF it needs to be a non-cover ability, make a talent of the scrapper tree that does that. They need it more that the DoT spec.

 

We also have no talents that buff orbital strike, but I suppose I shouldn't use that either?

[Husanak]

IF you are looking for big numbers at close range, Scoundrel might not be for you.

 

I checked the specs. The Dirty fighting is mostly DoT, and nowhere is it put in there what "buff" sabotage charge gets from it, because it gets none from it, nor does it get a buff from scrapper. IF it needs to be a non-cover ability, make a talent of the scrapper tree that does that. They need it more that the DoT spec.

 

First I understand you believe you have a point, really though I suggest you in fact play the class you are talking about as it is clear you don't really understand it.

 

Operatives in general are close in fighters. Most abilities are 10m, the hard hitting "staple" skills don''t work unless you first pop off skills in the 4m range. As in you HAVE to pistol whip in order to build upper hand buffs so you can use your "staples". Operative / scound IS or at least it always was a close in dmg class. The class has taken a lot of changes since launch that have reduced that.

 

Anyway, no point arguing with you further on a class all you have done is read about. Go play one if you would really like to speak on this topic with any authority.

[stormdrakelord]

First I understand you believe you have a point, really though I suggest you in fact play the class you are talking about as it is clear you don't really understand it.

 

Operatives in general are close in fighters. Most abilities are 10m, the hard hitting "staple" skills don''t work unless you first pop off skills in the 4m range. As in you HAVE to pistol whip in order to build upper hand buffs so you can use your "staples". Operative / scound IS or at least it always was a close in dmg class. The class has taken a lot of changes since launch that have reduced that.

 

Anyway, no point arguing with you further on a class all you have done is read about. Go play one if you would really like to speak on this topic with any authority.

 

I admit, I will never play a Scoundrel DPS, because it is not worth it. Sentinels and Gunslingers are better at DPS and if I wanted that, I would play them, but I play scoundrel for the HoT's, which never require sab charge. Leave it as is and if you REALLY want to have it that much, reroll into a gunslinger.

Edited December 1, 2013 by stormdrakelord

[Husanak]

is it really that hard for you all to hit the f key (default for cover/crouch) for one second? they are not removing the mechanic itself, just the benefits you get from it.

 

plus, did you guys even check the other class, and Sentinel? They are miles above the Scoundrel in DPS because they are pure DPS, not hybrids like the Scoundrel. Scoundrels are great healers if you want that. terrible DPS.

 

So whats your argument here or are you making ours ?

 

The answer to a class under performing is to buff it... not suggest everyone play another class. lol

 

First off I don't believe the smug Dirty Fighting tree is lacking... its a great DPS tree. Its just not 1 2 1 2 smash like the knight / warrior class is for the most part. It takes a bit of brains to play and having the tool kit of counters for pvp is part of what makes the class so appealing to many people.

 

Scrapper tree is for sure under performing... and if they are going to reduce the defense in that tree some more... I think it could use a burst buff myself... and I think the 2 neglected cover skills would be the perfect way to do it.

 

So now mr Marauder go role a smuggler or an operative. If you are not a horrible player you won't be logging in your saber guy much after you fall in love with the class. lol

[stormdrakelord]

So whats your argument here or are you making ours ?

 

The answer to a class under performing is to buff it... not suggest everyone play another class. lol

 

First off I don't believe the smug Dirty Fighting tree is lacking... its a great DPS tree. Its just not 1 2 1 2 smash like the knight / warrior class is for the most part. It takes a bit of brains to play and having the tool kit of counters for pvp is part of what makes the class so appealing to many people.

 

Scrapper tree is for sure under performing... and if they are going to reduce the defense in that tree some more... I think it could use a burst buff myself... and I think the 2 neglected cover skills would be the perfect way to do it.

 

So now mr Marauder go role a smuggler or an operative. If you are not a horrible player you won't be logging in your saber guy much after you fall in love with the class. lol

 

honestly? I would never play a scoundrel unless it was in sawbones spec. There are better classes for DPS, and if I wanted to be DPS, I would not be under-par scoundrel/operative.

 

I read because I want to know what I am getting into before I play the class. Reading gives me a baseline for what I should be going for at the start, especially if I am new to endgames. Some things are pure baseline to guide you into making a design for you.

 

What I am saying is simply asking for it to be removed off of cover requirement is like wanting to remove the leap limit for guardians because Sentinels in the right spec can do that from any range. If you really want it, be prepared to offer something up in return. I would say if they desire it , remove the cover but extent it's cooldown or lower it's damage.

Edited December 2, 2013 by stormdrakelord

[Darth_Dreselus]

So much verbal vomit I have run out of kleenex.

[stormdrakelord]

So much verbal vomit I have run out of kleenex.

 

what? I am just saying that Scoundrels have some of the better heals out there, but at the cost of not having highly damaging specs like their long-range counterparts. it is simple as looking at the class itself. They are designed as opportunists and medics. I can see bumping up scoundrel DPS at the cost of the heals. but then we might as well be close-range gunslingers.

 

besides, most people would take the long-range gunslinger/sniper and commando/mercenary over their close-range counterparts

Edited December 2, 2013 by stormdrakelord

[Falver]

From here maybe?

 

OR maybe here?

 

Quoting noxxic had you lose all credibility.

[Falver]

what? I am just saying that Scoundrels have some of the better heals out there, but at the cost of not having highly damaging specs like their long-range counterparts. it is simple as looking at the class itself. They are designed as opportunists and medics. I can see bumping up scoundrel DPS at the cost of the heals. but then we might as well be close-range gunslingers.

 

besides, most people would take the long-range gunslinger/sniper and commando/mercenary over their close-range counterparts

 

You're absolutely wrong. Scoundrel DPS is extremely overpowered. It's completely viable in all endgame content.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Falver

[stormdrakelord]

maybe you guys are right. but making sab charge go from cover to non-cover makes no sense. Either make it non-cover from 1-10 so you never have to take cover at all and kill the idea of gunslinger as DPS or make it worthless while doing so. Edited December 2, 2013 by stormdrakelord

[Husanak]

maybe you guys are right. but making sab charge go from cover to non-cover makes no sense. Either make it non-cover from 1-10 so you never have to take cover at all and kill the idea of gunslinger as DPS or make it worthless while doing so.

 

There is no need to change it under 10... ranges change on skill as well depending on which AC you take... so its not like there isn't a precedent for skills changing. Every class has level 10 passives that change skills.

 

Slingers get hold position at 10 that changes there cover and 3x the range buff... Scoundrels get upper hand and stealth.

Jedi get range increases and 60s placates majorly changing staple sub level 10 skills. Not to mention that one AC gets 500 power at level 10 instead of the 100 pool they started with.

Jedi Knighs are done a bit different the skills don't change much but they both get different mechanics

Troopers commandos get range extensions to staple skills and there explosive round fires twice

 

What we are saying is make the 2 skills that require cover... switch from requiring cover (the Gunslinger secondary resource if you will) ... and make it instead require the Upper hand buff (the Scoundrel secondary resource). This would be in line with the level 10 changes that all the classes have. At level 10 passive skills exist for every advanced class that either extend ranges, or increase defense buff times, or placates. It seems logical to change the 2 skills that are left behind using the Slingers resource to be switched over to the Scoundrel resource.

 

At that point there would be no balance issues... and they can play with high level DPS tree traits to add burst dmg to Scrapper... and some form of alternate Hemorage execute for the dirty fighting tree. (increasing the burst of scrapper... which at one time was the highest burst tree in the game... and overing a variation to the second dps tree... which at the moment is has much more burst then the burst tree).

 

They could even be used to perhaps balance the healing tree slighly... make charged burst and upper hand using debuff skill for the healer at the expense of some numbers from one of the higher tree healing traits. (my suggestion was the trait that gives our defense screen a self heal when it expires... reduce our self heal slighly and give us a team debuff I think could make the healing tree a bit more interesting to play and help polish it off)

 

PS... keep in mind there is no trade here. Saying scound is all heals is just plain wrong. There is no magic hybrid spec that really lets you do both dps and healing.... they are already careful to ensure any real defining traits for any of the trees are not low enough to allow for effective hybrid specs. (that;s every class.. almost anyway)

Edited December 2, 2013 by Husanak

[stormdrakelord]

There is no need to change it under 10... ranges change on skill as well depending on which AC you take... so its not like there isn't a precedent for skills changing. Every class has level 10 passives that change skills.

 

Slingers get hold position at 10 that changes there cover and 3x the range buff... Scoundrels get upper hand and stealth.

Jedi get range increases and 60s placates majorly changing staple sub level 10 skills. Not to mention that one AC gets 500 power at level 10 instead of the 100 pool they started with.

Jedi Knighs are done a bit different the skills don't change much but they both get different mechanics

Troopers commandos get range extensions to staple skills and there explosive round fires twice

 

What we are saying is make the 2 skills that require cover... switch from requiring cover (the Gunslinger secondary resource if you will) ... and make it instead require the Upper hand buff (the Scoundrel secondary resource). This would be in line with the level 10 changes that all the classes have. At level 10 passive skills exist for every advanced class that either extend ranges, or increase defense buff times, or placates. It seems logical to change the 2 skills that are left behind using the Slingers resource to be switched over to the Scoundrel resource.

 

At that point there would be no balance issues... and they can play with high level DPS tree traits to add burst dmg to Scrapper... and some form of alternate Hemorage execute for the dirty fighting tree. (increasing the burst of scrapper... which at one time was the highest burst tree in the game... and overing a variation to the second dps tree... which at the moment is has much more burst then the burst tree).

 

They could even be used to perhaps balance the healing tree slighly... make charged burst and upper hand using debuff skill for the healer at the expense of some numbers from one of the higher tree healing traits. (my suggestion was the trait that gives our defense screen a self heal when it expires... reduce our self heal slighly and give us a team debuff I think could make the healing tree a bit more interesting to play and help polish it off)

 

PS... keep in mind there is no trade here. Saying scound is all heals is just plain wrong. There is no magic hybrid spec that really lets you do both dps and healing.... they are already careful to ensure any real defining traits for any of the trees are not low enough to allow for effective hybrid specs. (that;s every class.. almost anyway)

 

Even though Scoundrel would make good DPS, most groups/guilds will only take them for healing, and Sentinel and Gunslinger will always be the preferred ACs for pub DPS role. If they put it in, say scrapper, as a talent/passive skill, I can see it. but this thread is asking for it to be like magic. why would sab charge go from cover, to requiring upper hand? leave it alone or reduce the damage on it and make it a regular ability like almost everything else. I play 1-10 and rarely do I crouch for much time, especially now that I am ascoundrel and have plenty of other tools to do the same amount of damage that tossing a simple sab charge does.

 

I can understand the request, but do not feel the need for it. It is not like you automatically lose the ability to crouch for one second and throw it.

Edited December 2, 2013 by stormdrakelord

[Husanak]

Even though Scoundrel would make good DPS, most groups/guilds will only take them for healing, and Sentinel and Gunslinger will always be the preferred ACs for pub DPS role. If they put it in, say scrapper, as a talent/passive skill, I can see it. but this thread is asking for it to be like magic. why would sab charge go from cover, to requiring upper hand? leave it alone or reduce the damage on it and make it a regular ability like almost everything else. I play 1-10 and rarely do I crouch for much time, especially now that I am ascoundrel and have plenty of other tools to do the same amount of damage that tossing a simple sab charge does.

 

I can understand the request, but do not feel the need for it. It is not like you automatically lose the ability to crouch for one second and throw it.

 

You have obviously never played the class. There is no dot tree. Trust me the dot tree is in fact the burst dmg tree... you won't understand that until you play a late game dirty fighter. Also no one is asking for some magic skill that will make short sighted pve kids want a stealth dps class. Even when the scrapper tree was the best PvP burst class going way back when the class wasn't the first choice for pve. Every class has its strengths. Its true though right now there isn't really much the scound does dps wise that isn't bettered by other classes. Which is sort of why it makes sense to buff the skills that would make sense to buff.

 

In any event we won't agree... I think its pretty clear anyone that has played a Scoundrel pretty much agrees it would be nice to change the way the 2 cover only skills we have work. As well that the scrapper tree could use a dmg, and the preference would be a burst style buff.

 

Believe what you like.

[stormdrakelord]

From what I understand, Dirty fighter was pretty reliant on the bleed abilities. IF that makes it burst tree then whatever.

 

IF they do make it non-cover, who about adding some "special" effects, instead of re-writing the ability to give scoundrels their own version:

 

Sawbones: They can toss it on an ally who, when hurt, gets healed for whatever amount of damage Sab charge would do on an enemy.

 

Scapper: Maybe a damage buff or something.

 

Dirty fighting: In keeping with the bleed theme of the tree, reduce it's upon explosion damage to give it a bleed effect for the rest of that.

[Never_Hesitate]

Are you seriously linking Noxxic as some kind of voice of authority? That because they don't mention an ability we shouldn't use it?

 

They are notoriously wrong about practically everything.

 

Example: Until very recently they listed enraged defense (the jugger aggro reduce, which also heals you a bit) under defensive cd's and aggro management for the Jugg Tank

[Husanak]

From what I understand, Dirty fighter was pretty reliant on the bleed abilities. IF that makes it burst tree then whatever.

 

IF they do make it non-cover, who about adding some "special" effects, instead of re-writing the ability to give scoundrels their own version:

 

Sawbones: They can toss it on an ally who, when hurt, gets healed for whatever amount of damage Sab charge would do on an enemy.

 

Scapper: Maybe a damage buff or something.

 

Dirty fighting: In keeping with the bleed theme of the tree, reduce it's upon explosion damage to give it a bleed effect for the rest of that.

 

Yes those are good ideas and similer to what I was talking about earlier.

 

What I was suggesting was adding to traits 6 and 7 levels up... so that they could not be hybrid built to do multiple things...

 

I suggested for the scrapper tree for a hi level trait that allowed sab charge to be used with out a global... to add burst dmg to the tree at the top.

 

I suggested for the dirty fighting tree to make sabo charge an alt way to trigger Hemoraging. (the Burst in the tree... tier 5 skill is wounding shot which causes tons of interneal dmg on bleeding targets... a trait a level or 2 up could give the same effect on a delay to sabo charge allowing for a large burst further down the time line in an engagement).

 

Your idea to change it to a dmg reflect style heal in the heal tree is a cool idea... at the cost of an upper hand buff it would have a real healing cost... however it could be a great option game play wise. I like that idea.

[stormdrakelord]

Example: Until very recently they listed enraged defense (the jugger aggro reduce, which also heals you a bit) under defensive cd's and aggro management for the Jugg Tank

 

maybe I fail to understand, but would that not be for raids, where there are two or more tanks? Noxxic, in my opinion is more of a guide for what abilities should be used most often in a rotation, not a guide for actual rotations. Note that there are notes you should look at. Like maintaining the bleeds from the bleed abilities in Dirty Fighting at all times.

 

@Husanak: You might have noticed the part where I said not rewrite the ability to give scoundrels their own version.

 

If you want that, Then have them rewrite the ability to give it to you at level ten, but two different versions.

 

Either it becomes a regular ability like everything else, or it stays the way it is, unless they add special effects to the scoundrel tree. No requiring upper hand, because it would never magically go from cover ability to requires-upper hand-ability.

Edited December 2, 2013 by stormdrakelord

[Loc_n_lol]

Honestly, I wouldn't trade up having to take a knee for consuming an UH under any circumstances. This is turning a minor inconvenience into a major drawback.

[Husanak]

Honestly, I wouldn't trade up having to take a knee for consuming an UH under any circumstances. This is turning a minor inconvenience into a major drawback.

 

I agree it wouldn't be worth it unless it was tied into a nice pay off with a trait. Leveling wise none of the trees offer much to do with the upper hands anyway. So you would have a choice between the AOE blaster sweet and the single target sabo.

 

End game... trait changes could make the use of an upper hand buff worth the spend.

 

I wouldn't expect them to allow us to use it with out taking a knee with out some cost.

[diadox]

I wouldn't expect them to allow us to use it with out taking a knee with out some cost.

 

Why not? It requiring crouch is only a QoL flaw, not to mention a spit in the face now that said crouching will no longer carry any defensive benefit whatsoever. The only thing removal of cover requirement for the skill would bring is smoother gameplay; it's not like it would add any actual power to the ability (other than removal of the marginally long self root).

[Husanak]

Why not? It requiring crouch is only a QoL flaw, not to mention a spit in the face now that said crouching will no longer carry any defensive benefit whatsoever. The only thing removal of cover requirement for the skill would bring is smoother gameplay; it's not like it would add any actual power to the ability (other than removal of the marginally long self root).

 

That is a good point... dropping to the knee really doesn't take very long, I agree it wouldn't much change the class, Charged would still go never used and sabo would still be extremely so so. Really I find the only time I use sabo is when I'm board or on a sleeped npc.

 

I mention the upper hand biff mainly cause I would like to see them do something good with the skill at the top of the tree... I think scsrapper could be fixed by allowing sabo at the cost of one upper hand to be used with no global. Then again perhaps it doesn't need the upper hand and would still work balance wise even with a trait that would allow that added.

[stormdrakelord]

That is a good point... dropping to the knee really doesn't take very long, I agree it wouldn't much change the class, Charged would still go never used and sabo would still be extremely so so. Really I find the only time I use sabo is when I'm board or on a sleeped npc.

 

I mention the upper hand biff mainly cause I would like to see them do something good with the skill at the top of the tree... I think scsrapper could be fixed by allowing sabo at the cost of one upper hand to be used with no global. Then again perhaps it doesn't need the upper hand and would still work balance wise even with a trait that would allow that added.

 

Charged burst, I found, is mostly used by gunslingers, and the main reason I would use it as one is for the saboteur talent that adds blazing something to the target.

 

My suggestions were more "make it a near useless ability normally but give it buffs that tailor it to a specific scoundrel spec." Like how Saboteur gunslingers get contingency charges on theirs.

[QuiveringPotato]

Charged burst, I found, is mostly used by gunslingers, and the main reason I would use it as one is for the saboteur talent that adds blazing something to the target.

 

My suggestions were more "make it a near useless ability normally but give it buffs that tailor it to a specific scoundrel spec." Like how Saboteur gunslingers get contingency charges on theirs.

 

It's actually kind of necessary to use, for scrapper/concealment at least. Even though it costs a lot of energy, an extra 6-7k crit in your rotation helps out a lot. Especially in those situations where you don't crit on SF, or BB, and need that little extra kick to help bring down your target.

[stormdrakelord]

It's actually kind of necessary to use, for scrapper/concealment at least. Even though it costs a lot of energy, an extra 6-7k crit in your rotation helps out a lot. Especially in those situations where you don't crit on SF, or BB, and need that little extra kick to help bring down your target.

 

Except that Scarapper is bad to use. People might get over it if you are Dirty fighting, but scoundrel is considered one of the worst specs to go for scoundrels at end game.