If Vengence gets Overwhelm, then Carnage should get Unstoppable, its only fair right?

[Helig]

Vengeance getting a root on ravage is a terrible idea anyway... be ready for months and months of complaints until BW realizes this. It should be one or the other, root or immunity.

 

Bah, it's pointless, I thought I couldn't lose any more hope for this game but somehow it keeps happening.

You're speaking as if you have Unstoppable each time you use Ravage. You don't. And the Ravage root is intended not as much for the Juggernaut himself (you can land all 3 hits on a target that's slowed), but rather for the group PvP utility of Ravage, because right now, it's severely lacking, and root from what amounts to a random procced power, isn't the best utility I can think of, that's for sure.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Helig

[HexDecimalUK]

you mean we will actually have to use defensive CDs on VG jugs just like any other DPS class? oh no! but rly Its a lazy answer for sure but its not like the ravage is doing that much damage, VG is a sustained damage spec and for it to be so easy to escape the VG's best attack as walking away while its channelled is pretty annoying especially when burst class's attacks just happen instantly or as part of a set-up, IE getting knocked on your face by an Op for an instant 15K stab combo, or shot in the ankles by a sniper, these take just as much CDs as overwhelming ravage will or simply burst back, or self heal. the other side to the argument is vengeance doesn't have anywhere near the follow up that carnage has and although it all adds up the same you don't have to blow any CDs to evade 6 seconds of a vengeance jug's attack right now.

[JestersRevenge]

It will be fair when master strike becomes the main means for burst in the combat spec, among other things. This solution ignores the greatest issue with vig/veng -- ms/ravage is the most important damaging ability and 50% of its damage is at the end of a near 3 second channel falling outside the unremitting window.

 

This. I've been playing Veng for over a year (just switched to Rage) and as fun as it is, it can't keep up with its Carnage brethren in damage output. Perhaps that's just what we have to accept with the amount of control we have? It needs just a bit of a damage buff. That said, I have mixed feelings on the root. I think the better answer might've been to make our autocrit Force Scream hit as hard as a Carnage Mara's. Let them keep the armor pen. We just need something other than a channeled ability to produce damage.

[cycao]

I hate when the op's original post is exactly the same as the title of the thread. I automatically think they're a tard and are just saying stuff just to stay stuff wasting valuable space on these forums.

[Lalainnia]

vengeance/vigilance really shouldn't get the root imo, what they should have are some talents from the focus tree like the reduced cost and gcd on aoe slow after leaping and the 6sec slow after leaping the 7.5% crit chance on dispatch the armor pen talent on shi-cho form Shatter/Plasma brand also needs something still feels crappy for the cost imo also need to bring back the talent that gave them the same effect they gave a friendly player when they used the lv 50 leap(cant remember the name) but it used to give them the 20% DR as well for 4 or 6 secs I think, replace it with that crap of a talent that resets leap and enrage/combat focus and saber throw its called preparation i think.

 

Vengeance/Vigilance feels the most jedi/sith like spec in terms of the movies to me and im glad to see it getting some love I just don't think this is the right way to go about it at all.

[Iolus]

So you want Unstoppable so you can land a uninterrupted ravage with 100% ARMOR PENETRATION from GORE on a rooted target while being immune to CC/knocbacks etc?????

 

Yeah its fair.... if Vengeance gets Gore.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Iolus

[JestersRevenge]

vengeance/vigilance really shouldn't get the root imo, what they should have are some talents from the focus tree like the reduced cost and gcd on aoe slow after leaping and the 6sec slow after leaping the 7.5% crit chance on dispatch the armor pen talent on shi-cho form Shatter/Plasma brand also needs something still feels crappy for the cost imo also need to bring back the talent that gave them the same effect they gave a friendly player when they used the lv 50 leap(cant remember the name) but it used to give them the 20% DR as well for 4 or 6 secs I think, replace it with that crap of a talent that resets leap and enrage/combat focus and saber throw its called preparation i think.

 

Vengeance/Vigilance feels the most jedi/sith like spec in terms of the movies to me and im glad to see it getting some love I just don't think this is the right way to go about it at all.

 

I find I'm not Rage starved with the spec, so I do have the extra to spend on Chilling Scream. That combined with the Shien movement buff in 2.0 has been a welcome addition in staying on target. There are a lot of goodies in the tree where you could spend above 36 points. I've been experimenting with Brutality in Rage combined with the free VT with Destroyer and it's lovely. Would rather they tie the root only to Charge, or do away with the root (I almost always get a full Ravage off after a Charge) and buff our Scream and Shatter DoT damage. I think there are other ways to buff damage without the root.

 

PS: Played Veng exclusively for a year. Never played Rage with my Jugg. Sent over power augs from Sent (Combat) and in stock Vindicator gear (full of useless crit for Rage) hit 1.2M and 1800 DPS in Novare. The Sorc healers literally cast multiple healing puddles and stood in them for the whole match. Were decent numbers, but saddened me too about Veng.

Edited October 21, 2013 by JestersRevenge

[snaplemouton]

You're speaking as if you have Unstoppable each time you use Ravage. You don't. And the Ravage root is intended not as much for the Juggernaut himself (you can land all 3 hits on a target that's slowed), but rather for the group PvP utility of Ravage, because right now, it's severely lacking, and root from what amounts to a random procced power, isn't the best utility I can think of, that's for sure.

 

Group utility? Are you freaking kidding? Jugg can taunt, push, choke, AE slow, AE mez, intercede, put pressure, leap root and even switch stance to guard.

Jugg doesn't need another freaking control utility.

What jugg need is a root breaker and for enraged defense to stop pumping through our rage.

 

So many terrible jugg defending a stupid and lazy change to make stupid cry babies happy about their class they don't know a crap about.

[Helig]

Group utility? Are you freaking kidding? Jugg can taunt, push, choke, AE slow, AE mez, intercede, put pressure, leap root and even switch stance to guard.

Jugg doesn't need another freaking control utility.

And still PTs and Marauders are preferred DPS for Arena teams. I wonder why...

 

P.S. I don't like the ravage root overall, as well. Might check what the person is writing about before vomiting out a ball of bile.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Helig

[snaplemouton]

And still PTs and Marauders are preferred DPS for Arena teams. I wonder why...

It certainly not because of group utility.

Marauders are preferred because of how unkillable they are and they are getting their DCD nerfed for that same reason.

PTs are preferred not because of their utility but because of how easy and stupidly lazy their DPS can be pooped out of their butt. No matter how hard PTs cry about their class, they have the most easy DPS rotation you could ever find in this game. Hence why they are chosen over Vigi/Veng which require an actual brain to play.

I'd take a good Vigi/Veng over a PT any days of the week and during weekends too. Simply because they can do so much more then a PT can.

 

Edit: Might want to check what you are writing too. You clearly specified MS/Ravage root was a good thing even with random proc because it add to our "lack" of group PvP utility. And I responded to what you said.

Edited October 21, 2013 by snaplemouton

[Siorac]

The complaints about Unstoppable/Unremitting + the new root are a bit bizarre. If you don't break the initial root after Force Leap you'll eat the third hit anyway, there's not enough time to get out of 10 m range unless you use something like Force Speed. Walking away works if the enemy doesn't use MS/Ravage right after a Leap.

 

The attack can be ruined in so many different ways anyway. Dodge, Pacify, Deflection, Saber Ward, Vanish, well-timed CC or knockback... and it's not like Vigilance/Vengeance has lots of other stuff that you have to worry about. Overhead Slash/Impale can hit hard but there's no crit or surge boost to it; Plasma Brand/Shatter is still lackluster; Dispatch/Vicious Throw is no longer an automatic crit.

 

So it's really not much of a change. It will make Veng/Vigi slightly more annoying but that's about it. Boosting the dot damage, giving us more armour penetration, changing Unstoppable so that it activates after you land - any of these would improve the spec a lot. This root is a relatively small quality of life improvement.

[Helig]

It certainly not because of group utility.

Marauders are preferred because of how unkillable they are and they are getting their DCD nerfed for that same reason.

PTs are preferred not because of their utility but because of how easy and stupidly lazy their DPS can be pooped out of their butt. No matter how hard PTs cry about their class, they have the most easy DPS rotation you could ever find in this game. Hence why they are chosen over Vigi/Veng which require an actual brain to play.

I'd take a good Vigi/Veng over a PT any days of the week and during weekends too. Simply because they can do so much more then a PT can.

 

Edit: Might want to check what you are writing too. You clearly specified MS/Ravage root was a good thing even with random proc because it add to our "lack" of group PvP utility. And I responded to what you said.

I rather speculated on the purpose\idea behind the change, not really specifying if it's good or bad.

 

Vigi\Veng isn't chosen not because it "requires a brain to play", but simply because of its design shortcomings. It has a high uptime requirement for damage, and it has mediocre tools for staying in range, and its damage is single target, random and relies heavily on Ravage. It doesn't have AoE damage reduction (unlike other melee specs that are frequently used) 1v1, it may pass for a combat system, especially in conjunction with high durability that this spec has. But in organized PvP (namely, Arena), you need to either have reliable, outstanding burst, or you need reliable multitarget pressure. That's why dongcleave is popular. That's why Marauder smash is popular. That's why sorc cleave works, despite Sorcs not being a class best designed for Arena. That's why Snipers, Carnage Marauders, Sins and Arsenal Mercs, while not quite as popular (harder to use, I'd say), are still seen quite often - they can blow up single targets with reliable, heavy burst.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Helig

[NogueiraA]

If someone 4sec stun you, you have to eat ALL of your atacker damage if your stun break is on CD.

Now IF your dcd's are on cooldown you'll eat all the damage from Ravage/Master Strike.

 

Where's this is unbalanced? Jugg has a 4sec stun? NO.

[snaplemouton]

I rather speculated on the purpose\idea behind the change, not really specifying if it's good or bad.

 

Vigi\Veng isn't chosen because it "requires a brain to play", but simply because of its design shortcomings. It has a high uptime requirement for damage, and it has mediocre tools for staying in range, and its damage is single target, random and relies heavily on Ravage. It doesn't have AoE damage reduction (unlike other melee specs that are frequently used) 1v1, it may pass for a combat system, especially in conjunction with high durability that this spec has. But in organized PvP (namely, Arena), you need to either have reliable, outstanding burst, or you need reliable multitarget pressure. That's why dongcleave is popular. That's why Marauder smash is popular. That's why sorc cleave works, despite Sorcs not being a class best designed for Arena. That's why Snipers, Carnage Marauders, Sins and Arsenal Mercs, while not quite as popular (harder to use, I'd say), are still seen quite often - they can blow up single targets with reliable, heavy burst.

Which is exactly why I said Vigi/Veng doesn't need more control.

A root on MS/Ravage will make Vigi/Veng use it as an utility rather then a damage dealing ability.

And saying our damage relies heavily on MS/Ravage is wrong. MS/Ravage is a lot of damage but so are every other abilities in our arsenal. MS/Ravage can easily fill that tiny blank spot in our rotation with only it's 2 first hits and completely ignoring the third one. Hitting with the first 2 strike is the easiest thing to do and near impossible to avoid by the target without sheer luck.

Vigi/Veng got plenty of tools to stay on target. The only thing missing is a root breaker and focused/enraged defense focus/rage draining. Those are the real issues. Vigi/Veng is simply too easy to shut down because of how we are the only spec that can literally do nothing at all while rooted. We only have 1 ability we can use at >10m and it's saber throw which does nothing to get us out of a root. Also enraged defense draining our rage shut down our DPS entirely when we have it on.

That is why we are not viable enough for arenas. Because our pressure get shut down too easily. Adding a root to MS/Ravage will simply make the ability another control ability rather then damage dealer.

And don't underestimate the power of single target pressure, as a healer, I can tell that a good vigi/veng is the most troublesome spec for an healer. I'd rather have 2 smashers tickling me with their slashs then having a vengeance obliterating me all day long. And I never had any problem shoving my saber in an healer butt. Until some random sniper leg shot me.

[Helig]

That is why we are not viable enough for arenas. Because our pressure get shut down too easily. Adding a root to MS/Ravage will simply make the ability another control ability rather then damage dealer.

And don't underestimate the power of single target pressure, as a healer, I can tell that a good vigi/veng is the most troublesome spec for an healer. I'd rather have 2 smashers tickling me with their slashs then having a vengeance obliterating me all day long. And I never had any problem shoving my saber in an healer butt. Until some random sniper leg shot me.

One of the reasons I would very much like to see Warmonger as a Shien skill (Soresu just doesn't need it), and/or FD/ED to break roots.

 

I find myself pressuring a healer a lot more on a Shadow and Carnage Marauder. The damage is just more reliable. Don't get me wrong, I love giving Vigilance a spin on my Guardian, and it's a lot of fun for siths and giggles in regs. But I do believe that it needs serious help for Arenas.

[DarthOvertone]

Vengeance getting a root on ravage is a terrible idea anyway... be ready for months and months of complaints until BW realizes this. It should be one or the other, root or immunity.

 

Bah, it's pointless, I thought I couldn't lose any more hope for this game but somehow it keeps happening.

 

People wanted balancing and they're getting it, the good and the bad.

 

What I dislike about the change is the complete lack of imagination. It's what BW has been doing for DPS Juggs from the beginning, just borrowing/stealing from Maras. It's okay for Juggs to be different. To make Juggs effective at DPS, they don't need to be Maras, but the BW Devs are just too lazy to make them unique.

 

Nevermind that we don't have enough snares and roots in this game. Sure it's nice that we aren't getting stunned, but being immobilized all the time isn't great either and that's becoming more prominent in PvP.

[Ottoattack]

People wanted balancing and they're getting it, the good and the bad.

 

What I dislike about the change is the complete lack of imagination. It's what BW has been doing for DPS Juggs from the beginning, just borrowing/stealing from Maras. It's okay for Juggs to be different. To make Juggs effective at DPS, they don't need to be Maras, but the BW Devs are just too lazy to make them unique.

 

Nevermind that we don't have enough snares and roots in this game. Sure it's nice that we aren't getting stunned, but being immobilized all the time isn't great either and that's becoming more prominent in PvP.

 

Indeed, that's why the most effective melee classes in PvP currently are rage and AP PT, as roots/snares do little to stop them. Veng/vigg has a whole array of problems, unreliability of ravage, lack of tools to stay on target, too much reliance on rng, bleed effects that are easily cleanable and lack of control abilities. Just adding a root to ravage does not resolve anything and its neither what the class needed nor what the community asked for. I may also add it is lazy and uninspired copy paste.

 

Yet most of 2.5 changes are just poor. They sound like "the community is mad, lets throw something at them so they stay quite" without really testing if it will help balance or not.

 

Oh Carnage with unstoppable. LOL. ****.

[Zunayson]

I am all for making specs better, but if they start stealing talents it's kinda lame. I agree with your "sneezing comment" they are pretty squishy, when u get a hold of them. With overwhelm, you will have them nailed to the floor taking the biggest hits warriors can offer for 5 seconds before allowed to move. That is a bit much isn't it?

 

Heres an idea, lets give vengence jugs orbital strike, that will fix them.

 

so so

 

Mercs getting CD reduction on energy shield, Hydraulic/duration buff, the 7% health boost that used to be in for both AP and arsenal;

 

every 15% movement speed bonus,

 

those are all lazy changes?

 

Why can't we just accept that both marauders and jugg non-smash DPS is dependent on ravage, and let it root.

 

How about you stop making bad melee DPS players an example of how good you yourself or your class may be. If you have to kite with a class that has channelled/casted abilities (like Commando), you are losing DPS. Losing DPS means you are not a very good DPS. You're better off playing a VG Tactics, kiting the Vengeance jugg, while maintaining 100% of your DPS.

 

Vengeance jugg is a MELEE CHANNEL.

 

No, nobody gives a **** about ranged casters. Lack of mobility is the price to pay for 30m range.

 

Vengeance, again, is IMMOBILE. And melee. This is like a sniper having full instants. Non-Los'able. OP as ****.

 

Using ravage did not give some super overpowered boost, it was normal and expected to use ravage on each CD, and it required people to catch up to their target again in pvp.

 

At least now, ravage won't be such a huge DPS loss.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Zunayson

[Zunayson]

double post. Edited October 21, 2013 by Zunayson

[Vodamin]

If Vengence gets Overwhelm, then Carnage should get Unstoppable, its only fair right?

 

lol just lol u maras will never get enough? You deserve a nerf if anything, not another boost.

[AlrikFassbauer]

A root on MS/Ravage will make Vigi/Veng use it as an utility rather then a damage dealing ability.

 

Does this mean that there is a difference between class design and how it is actually played by players ?

[Sideblaze]

The thing is, Veng is effectively the poor man's carnage, with some bits of annihilation thrown in, You can **** people up with Veng specced jugs, and the talent buff helped alot, But they are hardly on the level of Carnage.

 

Do you even realize how scary a full resolve (Good) carnage player can be? They will melt you so fast your death animation will replay in the respawn room.

[DarthAtin]

Now, I should preface this by saying that I don't have a whole lot of experience with arenas in SWTOR because I have awful lag where I am currently.

 

But I do have very extensive experience with arenas in WoW (as a Warlock and a Warrior) and tPvP in Guild Wars (as a Necromancer and a Warrior), as well as personally playing a Vengeance Juggernaut, various-specced Commando, and Combat Sentinel (though more casually than the other two), which are classes that have come up a few times in this thread.

 

I, personally, feel that we should have gotten the ability to use Ravage while moving instead of rooting on Ravage, but this works. And I can 100% attest to the fact that melee are not currently overpowered (though some, such as Marauders, are certainly very strong).

 

easeyway, you're displaying a mentality common among mid-level ranged players in PvP in any game: trouble dealing with high-mobility melee. In this case, I find the phrase "knowledge is power" to be appropriate. If you know your own strengths and weaknesses, and you know the enemy's tools, you can predict how they will use them and plan accordingly.

 

(TL;DR's will be listed after ">>>" for the lazy readers, but I recommend reading the whole thing.)

 

Melee classes are always made easier than ranged classes, on purpose, because ranged classes have an inherent, huge advantage: they can attack from range. They can start their damage and CC sooner, and they can shut melee down more effectively. Consider this: a ranged class with a melee sitting on them is vulnerable to interrupts, so they have to juke/plan, and their damage is only about 30-70% of normal, depending on class.

 

A melee being kited endlessly by a ranged class can do no damage. None at all. Not even any potential for damage. We have to connect to do absolutely anything, and ranged classes have a multitude of ways to keep us from connecting.

 

Therefore, melee is designed to have more ways to get to you than you have tools to keep them away. They have to, or else they become useless.

 

>>> TL;DR: The goal isn't to use your tools to shut down their uptime; it's to use them to minimize their uptime. They're GOING to hit you, assuming roughly equal skill levels, and that's okay. Your job is make sure they hit you as little as possible, and your teammates should be helping.

 

As Gunnery versus Vengeance, you want to drag them out of position. If they run towards you, you've got time to start your rotation, get Grav Round going, and your first Full Auto, which will probably be pumped out before they get to you, will snare them and make them take even longer to get to you.

 

If they leap to you (as most Jugs of any spec, but especially Vengeance, will), you can generally see it coming and hit Hold the Line preemptively. Boom, no leap root, no Ravage root. Just strafe away when he Ravages you, and you've survived his opener with flying colors.

 

If he pushes you and re-leaps, he can't Ravage again without a proc, and he's now way out of position. Take advantage of this. Have your healer keep you up, have your tank Guard you if you're running with one as needed, and unload on him while he's outranged/LoS'd from his teammates and healer. It's painfully easy to drag melee out of position.

 

Remember what you have: a root to use as soon as Unstoppable ends (Stockstrike), a good knocback on a relatively low CD (Concussion Charge), a pretty good mezz, again with a relatively low CD (Concussion Round), a ranged stun on a long cooldown (Cryo Grenade) - this is just control. You also have better than average survivability (especially with a few points in Combat Medic), and, of course, extremely high damage if you can get a couple of casts off.

 

>>>TL;DR: Play to YOUR strengths, not his. Coordinate with your teammates to get him out of the position or out of commission, then put them on the defensive with an all-out assault on whoever is most vulnerable (probably him).

 

Helig's comp sounds like an excellent one, and he plays it exactly as he should (it helps that he has patient teammates, of course), and it reminds me of an arena comp in WoW that I really enjoyed running on my Warlock: LSD2 (damage Warlock, damage druid, healing shaman, all ranged). This was not an easy comp to play, at least in recent seasons; it requires a lot of communication, cross-cc, clever use of LoS, and setup - but if you played it well and properly, you were a god of death. "Easier" teams could do nothing against an onslaught of well-coordinated control, slow, insidious spread damage via DoTs on multiple targets, and then the final phase of panic when the healer realizes that you're both unloading on his teammate, who is vulnerable and exposed, everyone else is at 50-60% health from consistent DoTs, and he's running low on mana.

 

This sounds much the same, but with four people. The setup's different (dragging your preferred target to a location where you can quickly and ruthlessly gut him while the healer is helpless or otherwise occupied, instead of spreading damage around to sap their healer down), but it requires skill to set up properly, more skill to execute than the average, currently popular composition - but when done properly, with communication, coordination, and cool heads, it's devastatingly effective.

 

Helig, I salute you for playing a comp few would try because you like it, and understand its potential. easeyway, I hope you've learned something, and you could do worse than to take Helig's advice.

 

Hope I've helped.

 

/bowout

[AlrikFassbauer]

Melee classes are always made easier than ranged classes, on purpose, because ranged classes have an inherent, huge advantage: they can attack from range. They can start their damage and CC sooner, and they can shut melee down more effectively.

 

I at least find this reasonable.

 

Only thing I wonder is this : Where are Sages/Sorcerors in this system ? Ranged ?

Edited October 23, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[Helig]

I at least find this reasonable.

 

Only thing I wonder is this : Where are Sages/Sorcerors in this system ? Ranged ?

Smash is rock. AP techs are paper. OP healers are scissors.

 

Sages/Sorcs are mushrooms.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Helig