Aurbere Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Every duel contains circumstances, however her ability to duel with and contend with these names is indicative of a larger skill than a lot of people credit her with Unduli can say what she wants but she has always represented just another Red Shirt Jedi to me. Quite true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 19, 2013 Author Share Posted October 19, 2013 (edited) She duelled with and survived: Obi-Wan, Anakin Skywalker, Darth Tyrannus, General Grievous, Mace Windu, Sora Bulq, Luminara Unduli and a long list of other names, she beat plenty of them and fought equally even with Windu. The evidence speaks for itself.Unfortunately is doesn't, if Ventress has mastered a lightsaber form I'm very confident a sourcebook would have made it clear, particular because Star Wars never fails to mention those kind of details in relation to the PT era. I'll admit she's certainly a high level practitioner of Makashi and Jar'Kai but I feel mastery eludes here. I feel here success against the Jedi she has faced is primarily down to her exceptional power in the Force which I feel is often underestimated. She defeated Unduli for one, simply by being faster. That said the evidence doesn't in any way dispute this. Against Kenobi and Anakin she held her own but without avenues of escape she was quickly defeated. Against Dooku she was humiliated, against Grievous she exploited his blatant overconfidence, she sparred against Windu for mere seconds before breaking off and her performance against Dooku indicates she would have been defeated in very short order, against Sora Bulq the fight was completely staged and against Unduli as I prievously mentioned she was just too quick, but in lightsaber combat matched her blow for blow fairly confidently despite having a vision impairment. On the other hand she was disarmed by Plo Koon despite the Kel Dor having a broken arm. Again she's definitely skilled but one of the most powerful dark side lightsaber duelists ever? I wouldn't even consider it. Edited October 19, 2013 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 any one else realize we aren't even talking about sith right now? Or I don't feel we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 19, 2013 Author Share Posted October 19, 2013 Quite true.Yet we have actual canon statements touting Unduli as a master of Soresu and IMO is a greater duelist than Ventress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 19, 2013 Author Share Posted October 19, 2013 any one else realize we aren't even talking about sith right now? Or I don't feel we are.Well your opinions on post #17 are welcome as our your opinions on Maul for #6 who I feel is the strongest candidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Well your opinions on post #17 are welcome as our your opinions on Maul for #6 who I feel is the strongest candidate. I agree right now I cant think of any "sith" that would contend with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Yet we have actual canon statements touting Unduli as a master of Soresu and IMO is a greater duelist than Ventress. Hmm... interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Traya>Malgus, we can't just focus on combat, her alter and sense was incredible. She walked into the exiles mind with ease, even when being trained to resist such invasions. Maul is next either way, I'd even say he beats Tyranus... Ventress could be close for #10, she was trained as a dark acolyte in the order of one sith though, so I'd say she should be considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Maul at #6 sounds good to me. Like I said before, he is very close to Count Dooku in terms of lightsaber skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Im not sure who should end up getting #7. Maybe Malgus, maybe Bane, Maybe Krayt, but those are the only notable sith I can think of honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 19, 2013 Author Share Posted October 19, 2013 OK, I'm placed Maul as #6 so lets get on to number #7. Possible candidates that come to mind are Bane, Krayt, Ulic and Kas'im. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 19, 2013 Author Share Posted October 19, 2013 I agree right now I cant think of any "sith" that would contend with him.And on post #17? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 OK, I'm placed Maul as #6 so lets get on to number #7. Possible candidates that come to mind are Bane, Krayt, Ulic and Kas'im. Of those I would have to say Ulic, he was an even match for Kun just before Kun's prime. They both got better (though Kun definitely outstripped Ulic power wise) and I still do not believe Ulic was massively worse then Kun. He even had the ability to fight in utter darkness if need be. Honestly Ulic seems to me the logical next choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 And on post #17? Your suggesting Malgus would not be able to Choke Sion, and I see no evidence of that honestly he has choked out force users before so why not sion..... Seems a bit of a stretch. And while force drain takes a lot I do not believe it is as much as the Maelstrom ability of Malgus.... so overall still no all of it seems speculative to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 OK, I'm placed Maul as #6 so lets get on to number #7. Possible candidates that come to mind are Bane, Krayt, Ulic and Kas'im. I'd have to go with Krayt for #7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 19, 2013 Author Share Posted October 19, 2013 (edited) Your suggesting Malgus would not be able to Choke Sion, and I see no evidence of that honestly he has choked out force users before so why not sion..... Seems a bit of a stretch. And while force drain takes a lot I do not believe it is as much as the Maelstrom ability of Malgus.... so overall still no all of it seems speculative to me.Well like I said in the post itself he did not Force Choke Ven Zallow or his Padawan Aryn Leneer, not did he Force Choke Jedi Battlemaster Kao Cen Darach or the Zabrak Jedi he faced on Alderaan. I feel that none of these Force users are equal to Sion in terms of Force power, and yet Malgus was not able to dominate them easily in the same way as Traya did Sion, and I feel Malgus' tendency to Force choke Jedi would indicate he would if he could. We should also take into account the fact that Bane (a highly powerful Force user in his own right) had to draw on a dark side nexus to create a Force drain field. And I'd hazard a guess that obliterating three powerful Jedi instantly would demand similar, if not more, amounts of power. Yet she needed no assistance. I don't think we should be so quick to dismiss this feat, because in the end she went out and decimated half a Jedi Council. That's impressive whichever way you slice it. And while the Force Maelstrom is indeed impressive, we shouldn't forget that Bane in the very earliest stages of his training was able to create a lesser manifestation of this power. That would indicate at the very height of his power he'd be capable of it perhaps in its entirety, and given that Traya is on a similar level, she could be capable of unleashing such power as well - note however I'm not implying she could actually use this power, just be strong enough to wield it. EDIT: There is also the fact that Sion is an incredibly powerful Force user himself - and no doubt close to Bane and Malgus' power. He did after achieve practical immortality through sheer raw power in the Force. Edited October 19, 2013 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 19, 2013 Author Share Posted October 19, 2013 I'd have to go with Krayt for #7.Well I was leaning more towards Kas'im - Fellblade put some pretty good arguments forward in the Most Powerful Lightsaber Duelist thread for why he should have Kenobi's spot, and I agree that they are very close. He is after all a Battlemaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Beni, not even mentioning she tossed the council round like rag dolls with force crush, choke, and push... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 19, 2013 Author Share Posted October 19, 2013 Beni, not even mentioning she tossed the council round like rag dolls with force crush, choke, and push...Well I did mention that in my original post, just reinforcing argument here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 (edited) Well I was leaning more towards Kas'im - Fellblade put some pretty good arguments forward in the Most Powerful Lightsaber Duelist thread for why he should have Kenobi's spot, and I agree that they are very close. He is after all a Battlemaster. I believe Krayt should be #7 for this reason: Krayt was a very adept master of Jar'kai and Niman and incorporated Juyo and Ataru elements into his form, do remember he was once A'sharad Hett and that he was considered a very skilled duellist by Yoda, Windu and Kenobi even as a Padawan. He faced Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi shortly after Order 66 and nearly beat him twice, the Soresu master and this is waaay before his prime about 150 years before his prime in-fact That's my argument in a nutshell. Edited October 19, 2013 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 19, 2013 Author Share Posted October 19, 2013 I believe Krayt should be #7 for this reason: That's my argument in a nutshell.Well, it doesn't really compare to a master of all seven forms, who was touted as one of the greatest lightsaber duelists ever and achieved exceptional mastery of Jar'Kai himself - as well as mastery over the saberstaff. His mastery is just far more broad, and arguably more complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Well, it doesn't really compare to a master of all seven forms, who was touted as one of the greatest lightsaber duelists ever and achieved exceptional mastery of Jar'Kai himself - as well as mastery over the saberstaff. His mastery is just far more broad, and arguably more complete. By that logic he is better than everyone else on the list but Sidious. But don't forget what Niman does for you as a Master, you basically become a Master of all forms in a way, as it is the jack-of-all-trades form, the fact he went on to gain high levels of proficiency in Ataru and Juyo as well shows that much like Kun he'd gone for pure aggression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 19, 2013 Author Share Posted October 19, 2013 By that logic he is better than everyone else on the list but Sidious. But don't forget what Niman does for you as a Master, you basically become a Master of all forms in a way, as it is the jack-of-all-trades form, the fact he went on to gain high levels of proficiency in Ataru and Juyo as well shows that much like Kun he'd gone for pure aggression.As opposed to the logic that Battlemasters are crap and should be dismissed... However as Dooku points out, a master of a single style can outclass a master of many. Which is why Kas'im falls behind the likes of Exar Kun, Dooku, Vader, Kenobi etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 As opposed to the logic that Battlemasters are crap and should be dismissed... However as Dooku points out, a master of a single style can outclass a master of many. Which is why Kas'im falls behind the likes of Exar Kun, Dooku, Vader, Kenobi etc. I take it you've forgotten the thread I created in the first place debating that very topic. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 19, 2013 Author Share Posted October 19, 2013 I take it you've forgotten the thread I created in the first place debating that very topic. Exactly.Which is why I'm wondering why your heading down that dangerous path of argument i.e. the dismissal of multiple form mastery as an illogical form of arguments. Its not. Krayt may have Niman but the fact remains the Kas'im went out and mastered all seven lightsaber forms. Which leads us to their specialized forms, and I think there is an argument to be made that Kas'im is a superior Jar'Kai/Ataru specialist than Krayt - and he's got a high level mastery of Juyo on top of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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