Deception Sith Assassin Counter

[Evolixe]

If you make him burn his long dcds, he can't solo guard anymore.

 

Talking about objectives here?

 

Because a sole guardian cannot do that anyway.. Even with all cd's availeble.

[ErikGW]

Talking about objectives here?

 

Because a sole guardian cannot do that anyway.. Even with all cd's availeble.

 

A solo tank guard or vg can guard the side node in civil war easily and be reinforced 30 seconds after he calls. But his reinforcement can't possibly return to mid as quickly... and if you mind trap to stall his reinforcement from getting back to mid you have effectively taken 2 enemies out of the battle at mid. If they sent more than 1 to back him up, which happens often, you can stall them much longer and really throw off the balance.

 

Of course all this is based on the assumption that your team is equal to or better than the enemy team. Often not the case, but if you don't have faith in your team to try 100% then the battle was lost before it started.

 

As a solo sin, i do often demolish a lone tank guard that is careless, cocky or unskilled and take a node by myself. But i don't consider beating down scrubs to be valid examples of pvp. I generally feel bad for that guy i destroyed if he genuinely didn't stand a chance. But maybe he will learn from it and get better (instead of going to the forums to ***** about op classes).

[Pathlight-]

Talking about objectives here?

 

Because a sole guardian cannot do that anyway.. Even with all cd's availeble.

 

I solo guard often when there are no stealthers available. Works against 95% + of teams as most sin players do not know how to sap cap effectively.

[Evolixe]

A solo tank guard or vg can guard the side node in civil war easily and be reinforced 30 seconds after he calls. But his reinforcement can't possibly return to mid as quickly... and if you mind trap to stall his reinforcement from getting back to mid you have effectively taken 2 enemies out of the battle at mid. If they sent more than 1 to back him up, which happens often, you can stall them much longer and really throw off the balance.

 

Of course all this is based on the assumption that your team is equal to or better than the enemy team. Often not the case, but if you don't have faith in your team to try 100% then the battle was lost before it started.

 

As a solo sin, i do often demolish a lone tank guard that is careless, cocky or unskilled and take a node by myself. But i don't consider beating down scrubs to be valid examples of pvp. I generally feel bad for that guy i destroyed if he genuinely didn't stand a chance. But maybe he will learn from it and get better (instead of going to the forums to ***** about op classes).

 

And I only need 20 seconds to cap that node

[ErikGW]

And I only need 20 seconds to cap that node

 

Any competent solo guard knows how to stop a sap cap and never even use his cc breaker.

 

Again, i don't consider noob farming to be valid pvp examples, even if the majority average player is a noob.

[Evolixe]

Any competent solo guard knows how to stop a sap cap and never even use his cc breaker.

 

Again, i don't consider noob farming to be valid pvp examples, even if the majority average player is a noob.

 

You cant stop my cap without using a cc breaker.

[Ottoattack]

Dec. sins typically follow this pattern in atk to obtain optimal result:

 

1- 2 sec CC from stealth.

2- Maul.

3- 4 sec CC.

4- Discharge.

5- Shock.

 

It varies after that. Best way to mitigate damage is eat the first CC and maul. When the second CC comes break it and use a defensive CCs. I would highly recommend that you do not attempt to solo fight a dec sin they can beat most (not all) classes solo. If you are solo, I would recommend you kite and call incoming. If you are with a group, just stay close to allies. Remember that once the initial burst window is gone you have a good chance avoiding them, as sins do not have much tools to chase or burst opponents from that point on.

 

I play both vengeance jugg and AP PT, and I won a fair amount of battles against good deception sins. I actually feel I am an advantage with vengeance. When you get CCed from stealth use enraged defense (15% damage reduction), then follow with saber reflect. If sin follows his pattern you just mitigated a 6K discharge and a 4-6K shock. Then pull saber ward and its a done battle. It is typically close, but if you mitigate the initial burst, dec sin is at a big disadvantage, as vengeance has much better sustained damage.

 

For AP, its much more chaotic, but if you manage to sneak in shield early, you can actually sit there and eat all CCes, as you receive 30% less damage while CCed, and just use shoulder cannon. AP PT is very strong counter to deception sin. Once intitail burst is over, sin is at a huge disadvantage, as AP PT have much better control over the battle, with 2 hard CCs, on demand 50% snare, HO and PFT.

 

Madness sorc, combat marauder and MM snipers might have a shot, but you need to luck out big time on critics. Other classes should not even attempt. Again, never fight solo defending node. Call for help.

[ErikGW]

You cant stop my cap without using a cc breaker.

 

That only works against a guard standing too close to the node. That's a noob move. You are still giving examples of how you molest noobs.

 

We get it, you are good at exploiting the inexperienced horde of morons that queue for warzones.

 

But that is irrelevant against good players.

 

Noobs stand next to a node and get sap capped. Experienced players are 15-20m away so even if you sap, force speed, and LOS behind the node, they can interrupt you in time without using a cc breaker.

 

Do you realize you are noob farming or do you think you are a pvp god?

[ErikGW]

Dec. sins typically follow this pattern in atk to obtain optimal result:

 

1- 2 sec CC from stealth.

2- Maul.

3- 4 sec CC.

4- Discharge.

5- Shock.

 

It varies after that. Best way to mitigate damage is eat the first CC and maul. When the second CC comes break it and use a defensive CCs. I would highly recommend that you do not attempt to solo fight a dec sin they can beat most (not all) classes solo. If you are solo, I would recommend you kite and call incoming. If you are with a group, just stay close to allies. Remember that once the initial burst window is gone you have a good chance avoiding them, as sins do not have much tools to chase or burst opponents from that point on.

 

I play both vengeance jugg and AP PT, and I won a fair amount of battles against good deception sins. I actually feel I am an advantage with vengeance. When you get CCed from stealth use enraged defense (15% damage reduction), then follow with saber reflect. If sin follows his pattern you just mitigated a 6K discharge and a 4-6K shock. Then pull saber ward and its a done battle. It is typically close, but if you mitigate the initial burst, dec sin is at a big disadvantage, as vengeance has much better sustained damage.

 

For AP, its much more chaotic, but if you manage to sneak in shield early, you can actually sit there and eat all CCes, as you receive 30% less damage while CCed, and just use shoulder cannon. AP PT is very strong counter to deception sin. Once intitail burst is over, sin is at a huge disadvantage, as AP PT have much better control over the battle, with 2 hard CCs, on demand 50% snare, HO and PFT.

 

Madness sorc, combat marauder and MM snipers might have a shot, but you need to luck out big time on critics. Other classes should not even attempt. Again, never fight solo defending node. Call for help.

 

A deception sin that discharges and shocks while your reflect is up really sucks. They have multiple alternate options (voltaic slash spam, overload and kite you... or just low cut and /hug for lols)

 

MM sniper is ok against a sin. Any decent engineer sniper is unbeatable by a sin though. And a solo guard sniper really should be engineer for so many reasons.

 

Madness sorc is a lol class that no serious competitor would use. A lightning + madness hybrid has more spike, never runs out of power and more survivability and cc utility.

 

Combat sentinel vs. Deception sin is a very even match that i have had go both ways (with me on either side) and often deserves a /say gf

[ishbindeinvater]

dont forget phase walk.

 

a darkness sin could pull you away, hit phase walk and doesnt even need to cc you. or pull, slow, and then phase walk behind the node.

 

or sap, start capping, you use cc breaker, he drags you away with pull, hard stuns you and phase walk.

 

another one is just sap, start to cap, you break cc, he whirlwinds you (30m) , start capping again.

[ErikGW]

dont forget phase walk.

 

a darkness sin could pull you away, hit phase walk and doesnt even need to cc you. or pull, slow, and then phase walk behind the node.

 

or sap, start capping, you use cc breaker, he drags you away with pull, hard stuns you and phase walk.

 

another one is just sap, start to cap, you break cc, he whirlwinds you (30m) , start capping again.

 

That's possible too, but whirlwind doesn't happen that quick. I have done pull>slow>walk>cap and it does have a lot of potential, but generally you can't pull them far enough to make a difference. A PT tank will hydraulic override and shoot when he gets los or use death from above to get at you from around los. A guard or jugg will be more vulnerable because he doesn't have a ranged aoe to hit you without los.

[mulzii]

Dec. sins typically follow this pattern in atk to obtain optimal result:

 

1- 2 sec CC from stealth.

2- Maul.

3- 4 sec CC.

4- Discharge.

5- Shock.

.

 

good sins never, ever use those skills in that type of rotation. ever. thats not even close to optimal, and you forgot the biggest bighitter the sin has...

[Evolixe]

That only works against a guard standing too close to the node. That's a noob move. You are still giving examples of how you molest noobs.

 

We get it, you are good at exploiting the inexperienced horde of morons that queue for warzones.

 

But that is irrelevant against good players.

 

Noobs stand next to a node and get sap capped. Experienced players are 15-20m away so even if you sap, force speed, and LOS behind the node, they can interrupt you in time without using a cc breaker.

 

Do you realize you are noob farming or do you think you are a pvp god?

 

I would love to see how you're going to interrupt a force speed sap cap with LoS without targeted AoE.

 

Still, this thing called low slash force lift works just as well.

[ErikGW]

good sins never, ever use those skills in that type of rotation. ever. thats not even close to optimal, and you forgot the biggest bighitter the sin has...

 

I wasn't really going to comment on that part... but yeah using discharge without 3 static is a waste, and using shock without throwing out two VS first is pretty silly too. If a sin opened up with spike maul electrocute on me, i would laugh at him.

 

Because electrocute is not only a stun but also a damage buff, i tend to hold on to it for my finishing spikes on a tank (often something like electrocute > discharge > reckless > assassinate > discharge > shock) so that the bonus is going to point in the fight where i am getting the most passive buffs, and he is using his last resort skills.

 

Against a carnage/combat mara/sent, electrocute i use to break ravage if overload isnt up.

 

Against a healer it is my third channel breaker, if jolt isnt off cooldown yet.

 

Using electrocute early isn't necessarily a bad idea, it's just not how i use it.

[ErikGW]

I would love to see how you're going to interrupt a force speed sap cap with LoS without targeted AoE.

 

Still, this thing called low slash force lift works just as well.

 

A low slash requires them to be close to you, which they shouldn't be.

 

Choosing the right point to stand while solo guarding is very important. Knowing exactly how far a force speed travels come from the experience of playing assassin and doing it to people enough times.

 

I'm not saying you don't have a 95% success rate, because you probably do :-) but if you were the solo guard you would know how to prevent it too.

[RodneyMcNeely]

There's been a TON of really great strategy here. Awesome replies, y'all.

 

So, if I want the most effective MELEE dueling class, what should I roll: Defense Guardian, Vigilance Guardian, Kinetic Combat Shadow, or Infiltration Shadow?

 

I like the more serene, "martial artsy" feel of the Jedi classes, but I'm not committed one way or the other beyond that. I DO want to do some serious dueling after 2.4 drops though. Which of these options is better suited for that?

 

Thanks again, everyone!

Edited September 18, 2013 by RodneyMcNeely

[mulzii]

I wasn't really going to comment on that part... but yeah using discharge without 3 static is a waste, and using shock without throwing out two VS first is pretty silly too. If a sin opened up with spike maul electrocute on me, i would laugh at him.

 

Because electrocute is not only a stun but also a damage buff, i tend to hold on to it for my finishing spikes on a tank (often something like electrocute > discharge > reckless > assassinate > discharge > shock) so that the bonus is going to point in the fight where i am getting the most passive buffs, and he is using his last resort skills.

 

Against a carnage/combat mara/sent, electrocute i use to break ravage if overload isnt up.

 

Against a healer it is my third channel breaker, if jolt isnt off cooldown yet.

 

Using electrocute early isn't necessarily a bad idea, it's just not how i use it.

 

exactly what i was thinking. both in opening and in using spike. I rarely, if ever, use spike, and usually its to vanish+spike to finish someone off or to use as an interupt on those op healers. spike is too expensive force-wise, and builds too much resolve to use in opening and/or most other situations. And low slash is a decept sins best friend

 

and in novare, nothing ticks off a tank more than overloading them over the cliff, throwing slow on them, and then capping in leisure while they slowly walk all the way around the cliff to get back up to the node, heh..

[ErikGW]

exactly what i was thinking. both in opening and in using spike. I rarely, if ever, use spike, and usually its to vanish+spike to finish someone off or to use as an interupt on those op healers. spike is too expensive force-wise, and builds too much resolve to use in opening and/or most other situations. And low slash is a decept sins best friend

 

and in novare, nothing ticks off a tank more than overloading them over the cliff, throwing slow on them, and then capping in leisure while they slowly walk all the way around the cliff to get back up to the node, heh..

 

Guess that might depend on how you trait. I consider that + force regen on leaving stealth trait to be very important because it makes my first 3-4 attacks basically free. So i always open with spike from stealth and always hit blackout right before spiking so that gives force regen too (and resets cd when i hit)

 

Force pool management is probably a little different for every sin player and the main reason the class is viewed as not sustainable in long fights even though it is at least as sustainable as a dps merc or operative.

 

Lol in novarre sometimes i make them chase me down then phase walk and cap

Edited September 18, 2013 by ErikGW

[Evolixe]

A low slash requires them to be close to you, which they shouldn't be.

 

Choosing the right point to stand while solo guarding is very important. Knowing exactly how far a force speed travels come from the experience of playing assassin and doing it to people enough times.

 

I'm not saying you don't have a 95% success rate, because you probably do :-) but if you were the solo guard you would know how to prevent it too.

 

I can just aswell use a grenade. Which doesn't require me to be in melee range and is just as successful.

 

The first one forces the knife on the throat. The second one is the actual slit.

[ErikGW]

I can just aswell use a grenade. Which doesn't require me to be in melee range and is just as successful.

 

The first one forces the knife on the throat. The second one is the actual slit.

 

And that's the point where he should use his cc breaker and interrupt you, since you just whitebarred him.

 

Your strategies are all based on the tank standing close enough for you to mind trap > force speed > cap make him use cc breaker then you just whirlwind him with a grenade or low cut, which is when he should actually use his cc breaker and will if he's good.

 

If he's 20m from the node you are relying on the lag gods to work for you and totally against him for you to cc > run 17m > unstealth in roughly half a second or make him lag at least 2 seconds to not break your cap without using his cc breaker. The lag gods rarely play favorites and you will often both lag equally.

 

I understand what you are saying. i do it frequently. I also know how to prevent it when i'm solo guarding.

 

Most people haven't put in the time or effort to master the sin, so they don't know how to defend against it. MOST people who play sins are scrubs that run from a hard fight, only win ganks or only come into a fight to finish off weakened enemies. They then perceive the sin to be as bad as when they play it, so of course we stomp them.

[Evolixe]

You cannot, possebly, interrupt an LoS force speed sap cap without a cc breaker if you have nothing to throw at an area.

 

Not posseble. You're more than welcome to try me.

[Laforet]

As a Carnage mara I use Saber Ward + cloack of pain ASAP, break the 4sec stun, stealth + leap + accuracy debuff = gg dead sin.

 

Get ready for vanish sap heal to full gg dead fotmer.

 

Im not a specialist but to beat deception you need to try to stop their burst somehow and dont get vanish sapped without trinket.

 

If you dont get murdered while he has the thing that gives him a lot of force so he can spam you with strong damage skills and dont let him reset with vanish sap you should be able to outlast him.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Laforet

[ErikGW]

You cannot, possebly, interrupt an LoS force speed sap cap without a cc breaker if you have nothing to throw at an area.

 

Not posseble. You're more than welcome to try me.

 

Eh, i do it all the time as jugg or pt. On civil war guarding a side node this means walk from node to bottom of steps, then double that distance and it's just about perfect.

[Evolixe]

Eh, i do it all the time as jugg or pt. On civil war guarding a side node this means walk from node to bottom of steps, then double that distance and it's just about perfect.

 

Huh? You're not making any sense.. why would I use force speed before actually sapping you?

 

It doesn't even make any sense for you to argue you can outrun a force speed without using anything at all.. what kind of argument is this?

[ErikGW]

Huh? You're not making any sense.. why would I use force speed before actually sapping you?

 

It doesn't even make any sense for you to argue you can outrun a force speed without using anything at all.. what kind of argument is this?

 

You are saying from that range you can sap speed to the other side of the node and cap before the sap wears off and i get los to interrupt.

 

I'm saying you can't, and i interrupt sins that try to very often. In fact, it has been many months since anybody sap capped me and when they did it was my fault lol