Shadows - Top 3 Questions

[oaceen]

Erhgg!! No fix for force shroud.

 

why spend a question on something that's already been asked and answered?

 

we should just keep submitting feedback that we think it's a bit stupid and why (ie: the inclusion of the chance to fail was never even documented until players found it, and smuggler's dodge does not have a similar chance to fail)

[Majspuffen]

we should just keep submitting feedback that we think it's a bit stupid and why (ie: the inclusion of the chance to fail was never even documented until players found it, and smuggler's dodge does not have a similar chance to fail)

 

I think it does, actually. I've been hit through Evasion on my Operative. I remember one time clearly, as I was escaping in huttball. I was on low HP so I popped evasion as I ran, and a sentinel did his ranged execute. Not only did it hit, but it even crit. What are the odds? 5%?

 

Personally though, it is starting to feel like the 5%-talk is just an excuse for shoddy programming. When last I played, I experienced more CC-through-Shroud than I had ever experienced before, as if the case had worsened.

[DarrelK]

I think it does, actually. I've been hit through Evasion on my Operative. I remember one time clearly, as I was escaping in huttball. I was on low HP so I popped evasion as I ran, and a sentinel did his ranged execute. Not only did it hit, but it even crit. What are the odds? 5%?

 

Personally though, it is starting to feel like the 5%-talk is just an excuse for shoddy programming. When last I played, I experienced more CC-through-Shroud than I had ever experienced before, as if the case had worsened.

 

In my opinion it is actually more than 5% ... Resilience is not working just too often... And in maybe half of the cases when I fight against another sin/shadow, their Shroud doesn't save them from my Project or Force Breach. Or stun.

Edited September 18, 2013 by DarrelK

[Majspuffen]

Once we have returned the Shadow and Mercenary top 3 which were submitted last week, we will be putting it on hold. I know the first question that comes to mind is, why? This is pretty simple actually. All 8 set of class mirrors have submitted a top 3 to us once after this most recent round.

 

Link: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6765033#edit6765033

 

As a Balance Shadow I'm not happy at all. Paying for this game is starting to become a masochistic act...

[sainik]

I also want to set the expectation that you shouldn't expect crazy big changes like you saw with 2.0. but it will be a new set of changes. Also, if you don't receive changes in 2.5 don't fret as we will be continually touching class balance.

 

Not happy with this. The only way to undo (or atleast nullify) the crazy big changes you made in 2.0 in the first place is to make crazy big changes. I get the feeling that even if changes do come in 2.5 to balance/madness, they will probably be minor, and may not adrdess the playstyle concerns I (and a lot of us) have. I really hope that is not the case.

 

Also once every 6 months is not continual, more like semi annual. Please consider making quicker (even if not perfect) class changes.

[Vaerah]

Not happy with this. The only way to undo (or atleast nullify) the crazy big changes you made in 2.0 in the first place is to make crazy big changes. I get the feeling that even if changes do come in 2.5 to balance/madness, they will probably be minor, and may not adrdess the playstyle concerns I (and a lot of us) have. I really hope that is not the case.

 

Also once every 6 months is not continual, more like semi annual. Please consider making quicker (even if not perfect) class changes.

 

It's not a feeling, it's a fact. He explicitly said the next class modifications WILL be minor.

[DaftVaduhhh]

For the Devs' notes:

 

Whirling Blow + Force in Balance + Force Wave does not even come close to Flyby or Pulse Cannon. A force-based unlimited-target AoE that works differently for each technique would work well, however (perhaps one that replaces Whirling Blow but I'd prefer it to remain and this to have a CD).

 

The skill cap you have placed on Shadow Tanking through Resil & Battle Readiness should be made clearer for SM & HM operations through greater use of animations, as you seem to have been preparing for since 2.3. If you intend for a Shadow Tank to survive the encounter through use of Resil on or about on its cooldown, it's important that you make that clearer to the average player, as it is a lot of time and guesswork to determine without log parsing.

[ArchangelLBC]

lol so much for a second round of questions. What a freaking joke.

[Bilirubin]

So KBN Xin et al. If you had known we only had 3 instead of 6 questions to work with, what would our top three have been? I still contend that we should by default be given an answer on tank spikiness since they confirmed they were looking into this over two months ago. Just feels like we needlessly burned a question there.

[KeyboardNinja]

So KBN Xin et al. If you had known we only had 3 instead of 6 questions to work with, what would our top three have been? I still contend that we should by default be given an answer on tank spikiness since they confirmed they were looking into this over two months ago. Just feels like we needlessly burned a question there.

 

That's a tough question. The tank spikiness issue is a real problem, so I think that still would have gotten a question. I might have ditched the PvE DPS question in favor of a second PvP question (concerning survivability), but it's really hard to say. I'm confident that the three questions we asked do represent the three most pressing issues for our class.

[Xinika]

So KBN Xin et al. If you had known we only had 3 instead of 6 questions to work with, what would our top three have been? I still contend that we should by default be given an answer on tank spikiness since they confirmed they were looking into this over two months ago. Just feels like we needlessly burned a question there.

Regardless of the decision made, the questions are still fine as they are. Yes, we have a lot of problems but we did the best we can.

[kennethdale]

So KBN Xin et al. If you had known we only had 3 instead of 6 questions to work with, what would our top three have been? I still contend that we should by default be given an answer on tank spikiness since they confirmed they were looking into this over two months ago. Just feels like we needlessly burned a question there.

 

I'm holding out a thin hope that even if they don't vocally address the "Bonus Issues" KBN listed, that they will at least read them and subsequently take them into account when considering changes to Sin/Shads. More likely than not, this hope will be shattered. They'll give us answers that don't really say much and won't end up making the small changes necessary to truly balance the class (imo simply increasing the armor of Sin/Shad tanks would lessen the amount of damage taken by a large margin even if it were only 15-20% which on my sins ~6900 armor would bring it up to 7900-8400)

[Bilirubin]

Regardless of the decision made, the questions are still fine as they are. Yes, we have a lot of problems but we did the best we can.

 

Oh agreed, and your efforts are appreciated. Not casting any sort of blame. Just starting a conversation that will hopefully help illustrate the slate of problems for Eric.

[ArchangelLBC]

Regardless of the decision made, the questions are still fine as they are. Yes, we have a lot of problems but we did the best we can.

 

They definitely are fine, and you and KBN have done absolutely fantastic work, and I don't want anything to take away from that. You two have both done a hell of a job. Here's hoping the answers we get reflect that.

[Leafy_Bug]

Thanks all for your effort and handwork. I think Eric's message and BioWare's behaviour for the past months emphasizes one thing : play the game if you enjoy it and stop playing if you do not. Coming on forums everyday fighting for a class that clearly is not on their to do list can drain some people.

 

 

I haven't logged my shadow for anything serious for a week now. I tend to log the character as it is the Guild Master character but other than that it sits on a sofa in my ship. I have stopped caring and feel much better when I see the ignorance from the developers. I have spent my remaining sub days, fruitfully, leveling a guardian. I am already level 42 and I can already see its potential. It has the good old school survivability my shadow used to have. I like the OP feeling of this class and I will power level it to 55 in the next days. Half of its BIS tanking gear is already in my cargo bays so the moment it dings 55 it will go straight to Thrasher in HM and NiM.

 

 

 

My advice to you guys is to enjoy the game or at least do something you enjoy. Coming here on a daily basis and repeating the same old tank spikiness chestnut does not impress BioWare. This class is dead and bioware tends to keep it this way. When 2.5 or 2.6 will hit they will do nothing but give it a slight armour buff and release content to make sure shadows get the shaft again. The armour buff will be advertised like something epic with probably a fancy video. I can see it now, people running in the streets with lightsabers and the tagline :'we listened to the community, we buffed it like you wanted'. Oh wait, lightsabers in the streets is already familiar but if they change the colours we will think its something new. The truth of the matter is, BioWare will sell it as a buff when it is nothing else but giving back what they took and admitting they can't make class balance. Smile, accept the break-up with your shadows and move on to greener pastures like Guardians. When your sub runs out, move to a different game and promote the incompetence in SWTOR so other people do not make the same mistakes like we did and believe all the unicorns BioWare is sending our way.

 

 

Peace out and can't wait for guardian leap and saber reflect. Already at level 42 I do 500k protection in PVP.

 

 

PS: I hope when the new rankings come out, BioWare replaces EA as the worst company in the world. Why should we deny them this privilege? They are working hard for this achievement so please give them your votes.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[Vaerah]

Thanks all for your effort and handwork. I think Eric's message and BioWare's behaviour for the past months emphasizes one thing : play the game if you enjoy it and stop playing if you do not. Coming on forums everyday fighting for a class that clearly is not on their to do list can drain some people.

 

Here's the other EA / BW MMO I love very much: Warhammer Online.

Sadly, enough players followed the advice: play the game if you enjoy it and stop playing if you do not and now that's what we got: MMO will be shut down at the end of this year. :(:(:(:(:(

Edited September 20, 2013 by Vaerah

[brainpsyk]

[snip] I have spent my remaining sub days, fruitfully, leveling a guardian. I am already level 42 and I can already see its potential. It has the good old school survivability my shadow used to have.

 

I've done the same (but didn't have all the gear). I leveled a guardian, and, in a lot worse gear, am out-tanking my shadow. The guardian has only 1 drawback - it's not designed to be the off-tank because focus/rage generation sucks a big wet set of donkey balls when you're not getting beat on.

 

So, my advice is reroll from a shadow. A Shadow is to SWTOR what the Paladin was to WoW, the class the devs hate.

 

1. The Guardian/Jugg is what the devs play, it will always be able to clear all game content
   
2. Guardians/Juggs will always get their issues fixes (see #1)
   
3. The Guardian/Jugg has to be the MT, because you can't do anything if you're not getting beat on, and the OT never takes the beating on single tank fights
   
4. The Guardian/Jugg has 2 excellent DPS specs, both work in PvP and PvE, but 1 is completely OP in PvP, especially against Shadow Tanks (auto crit smash ignores shields )
   

 

Funny thing is, while proofreading this post, I realized that 1-4 is the the exact problem that Shadows face, just reverse each item...

[Evolixe]

"Advising" people to "reroll" to dodge problems with the class is the stupidest argument I have ever heared.

 

You're contributing to the problem, not helping it in any way.

 

Not to speak about the fact that one and the other class are COMPLETELY different in playstyle.

[nagatamen]

"Advising" people to "reroll" to dodge problems with the class is the stupidest argument I have ever heared.

 

You're contributing to the problem, not helping it in any way.

 

Not to speak about the fact that one and the other class are COMPLETELY different in playstyle.

 

I see where you're coming from, but I think that the "reroll recommendation" is the second most viable way to get the point across as the Dev's will be forced to ask and answer the question "where are all the shadows in PvE and PvP content?" The most viable way to get the point across is to unsub and leave a comment when unsubbing that it was due to "class imbalance, primarily with Shadows/Assassins" which not only forces them to acknowledge the issue but fix it before their jobs are terminated. A subbed player is more likely to purchase stuff off the Cartel Market than a non-subbed player as they are more committed to the game, a subbed player leaving takes the predictable monthly fee and bonus supplementary purchases completely away.

 

Since Bioware's abandoned their horribly implemented PR stunt to keep players from leaving the game, I'd like to say Thank You again to KeyboardNinja and Xinika for all their hard work. I'm sorry you two didn't get to finish what you were working on with that second set of questions.

[ArchangelLBC]

"Advising" people to "reroll" to dodge problems with the class is the stupidest argument I have ever heared.

 

You're contributing to the problem, not helping it in any way.

 

Not to speak about the fact that one and the other class are COMPLETELY different in playstyle.

 

It really depends on what you view as the problem.

 

If the problem is "I'm not having fun at endgame with my chosen class/role because of bad class design, but I still otherwise like this game and want to keep playing" then rerolling is about the most sensible bit of advice I can recommend. Indeed, if nothing else it gives you a good insight into just how green the grass on the other side truly is.

 

If the problem is "the shadow class has major flaws", then I'm afraid only BW can fix that. I'm not saying a mass exodus of shadow players would actually get them to change things, but is it worth playing a broken class till they do?

 

Leafy's right. Trying to go on the forums every day and pour so much time and energy into getting BW to listen to concerns just isn't worth it. Playing a subpar class when you know you can get much better results, for much less effort, on another class isn't worth it, unless that is specifically your thing. In the end, we should be playing the game for fun, and if one aspect isn't fun you find a new aspect of the game, and if no part of the game is fun you should quit.

[Vaerah]

"Advising" people to "reroll" to dodge problems with the class is the stupidest argument I have ever heared.

 

You're contributing to the problem, not helping it in any way.

 

Not to speak about the fact that one and the other class are COMPLETELY different in playstyle.

 

It's true. But I have seen what they have done to Warhammer, whose large scale PvP exists and is incommensurably better than SWTOR. They let it DIE, a MMO that could easily have 2M subs if they ever added content or fixed bugs in YEARS of complete abandon.

 

It started exactly like how SWTOR is doing now:

 

- Super famous IP and licensing

- Grand launch, huge hype.

- Super mega massive queues and over-stressed servers. Here's me waiting for 2 hours just to log in.

- At launch, Immediate "wake up" by the player base about how truly broken the game is.

- Inept and non communicative developers who hide behind "PR mouthpieces".

- Damage control applied in abusive amounts. Truths denial. Classes imbalances false promises.

- Game loses a big portion of the now disgusted player base.

- Mini, pathetic expansion (anyone see something in common?) that brings in more problems than it solves.

- More technical and game balance issues.

- Developers are incompetent and just unable to deal with their own creation. Large parts of them get fired and no replacement comes.

- A sort of "cartel market" is introduced.

- Lots of gadgets, pets and other fluff are introduced.

 

No, I am not talking about SWTOR even if the story is identical.

 

- Game keeps bleeding players. Entire game feature remain at a barely more than hype state (see space combat? Outworld PvP?)

- More incompetence, delays, silence. Now some big brass heads drop. It's how EA works.

- Game is now at "niche status", third party websites stop talking about it. Then forums close the War sections. Finally, add ons websites (here SWTOR is even worse, could not even implement add ons) like Curse.com remove Warhammer.

- Game's servers are moved to a cloud server. You read it right, they won't even want to pay for physical servers to host it any more.

- One day, they stop selling game time cards / codes. Playerbase get worried and the cowards say it's "just a temporary EA website technical issue".

- With no fanfare, they announce the game will shut down at the end of this year.

 

 

SWTOR has some more playerbase left, but is RAPIDLY going exactly that way. A testament about how neither EA nor BW have any clue about how to manage MMOs, even when they have the massive push of strong lore and IP (Warhammer and Star Wars).

 

 

So, Evolixe, if you had to see your favored MMO being brutalized, smashed, minced and destroyed like that, how much faith would you have in SWTOR which is quickly going the same route?

 

So, Evolixe, as I was saying in the beginning you are right. Reroll is not a smart option. Leaving this trainwreck end like Warhammer is. Quit and completely ban EA / Failware from your gaming brands forever. That's the answer.

Or you may stick and enjoy it till it'll last. But don't grow attached to it like I did for Warhammer, beause it really hurts.

 

To re-state the incommensurable degree of incompetence displayed here, just think about Istaria: a 2003 game with a fraction of the content of other games and no PvP at all, tanked at launch but is *growing* since several years. Because the incompetents were replaced by fewer but good developers.

 

So, 2008-2012 (Dec 2011) grand AAA titles close down and handful developers 2003 games prosper.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Vaerah

[TralyanSavo]

So... when do we get our answers?

[Aelanis]

If it's anything like the last set of answers, we'll get them on Tuesday, maybe Wednesday.

[DaftVaduhhh]

A response here would have been nice.

[Xinika]

9/23/2013 - We await our answers - Shadow / Assassin community.