Shadows - Top 3 Questions

[Evolixe]

Now that I carefully consider the changes made to the questions.. I do indeed think that switching out balance pve questions for infiltration pve ones is a big mistake. I'd reconsider.. but who am I? Edited September 14, 2013 by Evolixe

[Stavroz]

Hey Keyboard my concerns are regarding PvP tanking.

 

I know some concerns are brought up in question one but that is in regards to PvE.

 

In PvP my concerns are the following.

 

Currently the best spec to "tank" in PvP and arenas is 23/21/2.

Basically you need to spend 21 points in the infiltration tree to get better survival tool then the tank tree.

 

Anything after kinetic Bulwark and force pull is simply useless or negligible in the tank tree, and you can simply replace the Spin kick out of stealth with Low slash in the infiltration tree.

 

Even so the key problem from what I see is the following.

 

First and foremost is our low base armor. 34.5% mitigation with full Conq.

 

We take to much dmg through guard compared to vanguards and Guardians who have approx 50% armor mitigation. These leads to us popping more of of defenive cooldowns in order to mitigate damage and we put more pressure on healers to receive healing in combat over the other 2 tanks which makes us a liability.

 

It is true that as a consular we get more base defense 10% instead of 5% as well as with kinetic ward we get better shield chance.

 

These all looks great on paper but while you mentioned in your question 1 its too RNG but in pvp there is an even bigger issue.

 

Due to the nature of the way Damage is delivered in PvP the majority of strong attacks come in a format that ignore shield and defense stats either b/c they are AE dmg or Internal/Elemental or Force/tech powers that Crit.

 

The strongest clases for pvp rely on these attacks for the bulk of their dmg. Rage Mara and Jugs, AP Powertechs and Leathality Snipers.

I do agree we perform stronger against DPS classes that deliver there dmg via weapon abilaties ei White dmg like Carnage Mara's, Deception Assasins and Marksman Snipers but seeing as some of these specs don't see the light of day in competitive PvP it is a moot point.

 

To further add insult to injury even when under defensive cooldowns like Battle readiness or black out if you use the infiltration tree the +25% dmg reduction gives us a only 59% dmg reduction We have to use a defensive cooldown to get 7% more mitigation then a vangaurd and 9% more then a Gaurdian. WOW

 

Then we have my biggest pet peeve. Tools to keep our team alive.

 

Our peeling tools are simply inferior to that of a guardian and our taunts are not as good as the other 2 tanks.

Everyone single target taunt is the same but its our AE taunt that really lacks when stacked up againt the other tanks.

 

Vangaurds can taunt a group of individuals from range (30 m) making it more versatile and the guardians get to place a dmg reduction bubble on all friendlies within the sphere of influence. While many might argue that the bubble is not all that strong ppl need to factor in that all dmg incoming is also decreased by 30% for the duration of the taunt giving that moderate bubble even greater strength.

 

 

I guess my real concern in a nutshell is what is BW planning on doing to help shadows tank more efficiently then the other two tanks. We lack mitigation as well as Utility via peels and other abilaties like the ae bubble that guardians get as well as guardian leap.

[MasterFeign]

Now that I carefully consider the changes made to the questions.. I do indeed think that switching out madness pve questions for infiltration pve ones is a big mistake. I'd reconsider.. but who am I?

 

We still have 3 more questions anyway. And I wouldn't think they would do any class balancing untill all 8 classes have been addressed, so we'd have to wait anyway.

 

Plus I'd wait and see what they'd have to say anyway.

 

Umm Stav, this was more or less acknowledged already, all over the forums. Not sure what you're trying to get at in regards to this particular post though, as it's about getting answers from the devs, and besides, they'll have their own metrics they will use.

Edited September 14, 2013 by MasterFeign

[KeyboardNinja]

To everyone who is sad about the exclusion of Balance/Madness...

 

So am I. :-( I really wanted to get that in there. In the end though, I looked at the PvE DPS question and realized that it was in fact two questions sandwiched together without a lot of related points. It was literally trying to cram extra questions into a smaller space. The two questions were specifically: Infil/Decep needs some reorg to be consistently viable, and Balance/Madness is a boring spec. I had to choose between the two, and I chose the one which related to class balance, rather than to quality-of-life and subjective enjoyment. I totally agree that the balance/madness issues are real and need addressing, but I had to triage.

 

As for the eleventh hour removal, the question drafts were posted in cut-down form for several hours before I made the official question post. I know that's not a huge amount of time, but try to realize exactly how much time was spent drafting, redrafting and editing these questions. :-) It was a stretch to get them in under the wire as it was.

[Evolixe]

We still have 3 more questions anyway. And I wouldn't think they would do any class balancing untill all 8 classes have been addressed, so we'd have to wait anyway.

 

Plus I'd wait and see what they'd have to say anyway.

 

Umm Stav, this was more or less acknowledged already, all over the forums. Not sure what you're trying to get at in regards to this particular post though, as it's about getting answers from the devs, and besides, they'll have their own metrics they will use.

 

True, but I'm not sure if we should adress Infiltration PvE at all tbh. Think its a waste of resources.

 

And the whole proc going off before the actual ability.. what if that's intended design?

It probebly just wasn't thought through very well.. but definitely does not sound like a "bug".

 

Anyways, I'm definitely not trying to provoke anything here. Just laying out another theory.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Evolixe

[thejollygreenone]

And the whole proc going off before the actual ability.. what if that's intended design?

It probebly just wasn't thought through very well.. but definitely does not sound like a "bug".

 

Anyways, I'm definitely not trying to provoke anything here. Just laying out another theory.

 

i've used force breach at two stacks, had it proc shadow technique, and not do the damage of three stacks. now this has only happened once because i never really use force breach with two stacks, it was a mistake actually, so with that being said what i experienced may or may not have been genuine and/or a skewed perception since it happened at a glance and i didn't look further into it. whatever the speculation is about what occurs in this faulty mechanic, it's still a faulty mechanic imo.

 

if some testing needs to be done to see how the mechanic reacts to put nay-sayers at rest, i'd be happy to devote some time to the subject and procure some actual evidence. but as of now i believe it's something that needs to be changed in order to increase regularity for pve infiltration players regardless of the details in question.

Edited September 14, 2013 by thejollygreenone

[Evolixe]

But it's an argueable thing, that's why it might be a bad question

 

And that's my point.

[thejollygreenone]

But it's an argueable thing, that's why it might be a bad question

 

And that's my point.

 

i believe that wasn't even put in the question though, it was put in the bonus section. i will double check to make sure i'm not being an idiot, but yeah.

 

EDIT: yeah it's not in the actual question, but the bonus section. sorry if that's not what you meant. ^.^

 

anyway going to do some testing on it for funsies, will come back with results.

 

EDIT:EDIT: just did the testing, it happened off the bat. no stack of breaching shadows was ever gained. it remained at the damage of 2 stacks which was a 4800 crit, i popped force potency right after just to make sure there was indeed a difference, and at 3 stacks it crit for 6800.

 

if that isn't proof enough for anyone, feel free to try for yourself

Edited September 14, 2013 by thejollygreenone

[Torcatoth]

Great questions. Fingers crossed that we won't get a "Maul 'em to death + stealth to immortality" response

You sir made my day

[jackrunip]

Balance/Madness spec has the least involved rotation in the game by a WIDE margin. It has a single proc which is essentially available on cooldown, and everything else falls into the "refresh on CD; spam your fillers" category. It is, simply put, boring. Also, it is the only spec with no access to the class signature ability (Shadow Strike/Maul).

 

Thanks for adding this! Balance was my preferred spec before they made it SUPER boring in 2.0. Hope this eventually gets looked at.

[ArchangelLBC]

To everyone who is sad about the exclusion of Balance/Madness...

 

So am I. :-( I really wanted to get that in there. In the end though, I looked at the PvE DPS question and realized that it was in fact two questions sandwiched together without a lot of related points. It was literally trying to cram extra questions into a smaller space. The two questions were specifically: Infil/Decep needs some reorg to be consistently viable, and Balance/Madness is a boring spec. I had to choose between the two, and I chose the one which related to class balance, rather than to quality-of-life and subjective enjoyment. I totally agree that the balance/madness issues are real and need addressing, but I had to triage.

 

As for the eleventh hour removal, the question drafts were posted in cut-down form for several hours before I made the official question post. I know that's not a huge amount of time, but try to realize exactly how much time was spent drafting, redrafting and editing these questions. :-) It was a stretch to get them in under the wire as it was.

 

The connective tissue would have been "Shadow DPS is not desired in PVE at all". By focusing on one spec, it's entirely possible the devs will say, essentially, that Infil is viewed more as a PVP damage spec, and we have a perfectly viable PVE DPS spec in balance. Not mentioning Balance at all gives them that out, and the combat team doesn't have to take any notice of any bonus issues no matter how much Eric screams at them. The fact that usability for Balance is in such a sad state doesn't have to enter into their thinking in that case, and I maintain that usability is more than just an issue of the spec being "boring", but ties directly into viability, especially in any 16 man raid.

 

Unless you know for a fact the player in question is really good, why on earth would I ever take a DPS shadow into my raid regardless of their spec? At least DF scoundrels do more damage than DF snipers. At least Guardians have an armor debuff and both they and Vanguards have a chance to use their off taunt to decent effect. Shadow DPS brings nothing in either spec, and especially not balance. If I'm shouting in fleet, or looking at applicants to my guild, given a choice between two players I don't know very well at all, one a shadow DPS, and the other literally any other melee DPS, I'd take the other melee DPS any day of the week, and no matter what BW wants to talk about perception issues, if they do nothing to correct those perception issues then that will continue to be the case.

 

Let me ask KBN, how much attention do you really think they're going to pay to those bonus issues?

 

 

We still have 3 more questions anyway. And I wouldn't think they would do any class balancing untill all 8 classes have been addressed, so we'd have to wait anyway.

 

Plus I'd wait and see what they'd have to say anyway.

 

Umm Stav, this was more or less acknowledged already, all over the forums. Not sure what you're trying to get at in regards to this particular post though, as it's about getting answers from the devs, and besides, they'll have their own metrics they will use.

 

After we get our answers for this round, all 8 ACs will have had a chance to voice concerns. I don't know of any rep worth their salt who HASN'T been working with the mirror rep to construct these questions precisely because the second round of questions is offset by 8 weeks. I should hope they'll start working on class balance changes immediately. If they are seriously going to wait another two months to even start then this really has been all for nothing and I hope everyone at BW gets fired over such idiotic negligence. That's not to say I expect actual changes to go live in that time, but a lot of these issues are in fact kinda delicate and are going to need a lot of tweaking and balancing. Little faith as I have in the devs, I'd be frankly shocked if they haven't already started for that exact reason.

 

Eric, if you ever read this please impress upon them that as much as you keep telling us changes aren't going to happen tomorrow, they need to be in the works right now. They should have been in the works months ago, but we can't change past mistakes, and the whole point of this program is to be better going forward. That being said, also impress upon them the need to get out that class balance patch out as soon as possible. If 2013 becomes 2014 and we still haven't seen a class balance patch I know a lot of people who won't be around playing SWTOR when 2014 becomes 2015.

Edited September 14, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[Stavroz]

Quick suggestion

 

How would ppl feel that if they changed Kinetic ward to:

 

Erects a Kinitic ward with 15 charges that increases you armour by 1% per charge. Every time you are hit you lose 1 charge.

Then for Kinetic Bulwark in the Kinetic Combat tree:

Every time 1 charge of kinetic ward is consumed Kinetic ward increase armour rating by .5%. Stacks up to 8 times.

 

So basically at full charge a shadows armour in PvP will increase to 49% (similar to guardian) and will drop down to 38% at 1 charge while kinetic ward is active.

[nagatamen]

The connective tissue would have been "Shadow DPS is not desired in PVE at all". By focusing on one spec, it's entirely possible the devs will say, essentially, that Infil is viewed more as a PVP damage spec, and we have a perfectly viable PVE DPS spec in balance. Not mentioning Balance at all gives them that out, and the combat team doesn't have to take any notice of any bonus issues no matter how much Eric screams at them. The fact that usability for Balance is in such a sad state doesn't have to enter into their thinking in that case, and I maintain that usability is more than just an issue of the spec being "boring", but ties directly into viability, especially in any 16 man raid.

 

Unless you know for a fact the player in question is really good, why on earth would I ever take a DPS shadow into my raid regardless of their spec? At least DF scoundrels do more damage than DF snipers. At least Guardians have an armor debuff and both they and Vanguards have a chance to use their off taunt to decent effect. Shadow DPS brings nothing in either spec, and especially not balance. If I'm shouting in fleet, or looking at applicants to my guild, given a choice between two players I don't know very well at all, one a shadow DPS, and the other literally any other melee DPS, I'd take the other melee DPS any day of the week, and no matter what BW wants to talk about perception issues, if they do nothing to correct those perception issues then that will continue to be the case.

 

Let me ask KBN, how much attention do you really think they're going to pay to those bonus issues?

 

 

 

 

After we get our answers for this round, all 8 ACs will have had a chance to voice concerns. I don't know of any rep worth their salt who HASN'T been working with the mirror rep to construct these questions precisely because the second round of questions is offset by 8 weeks. I should hope they'll start working on class balance changes immediately. If they are seriously going to wait another two months to even start then this really has been all for nothing and I hope everyone at BW gets fired over such idiotic negligence. That's not to say I expect actual changes to go live in that time, but a lot of these issues are in fact kinda delicate and are going to need a lot of tweaking and balancing. Little faith as I have in the devs, I'd be frankly shocked if they haven't already started for that exact reason.

 

Eric, if you ever read this please impress upon them that as much as you keep telling us changes aren't going to happen tomorrow, they need to be in the works right now. They should have been in the works months ago, but we can't change past mistakes, and the whole point of this program is to be better going forward. That being said, also impress upon them the need to get out that class balance patch out as soon as possible. If 2013 becomes 2014 and we still haven't seen a class balance patch I know a lot of people who won't be around playing SWTOR when 2014 becomes 2015.

 

Personally I welcome Bioware to announce that Infiltration is a "PvP Spec," because at that point the amount of crap that will fly at them over that will bury all their offices. Stating that one of our 3 specs is only not viable for anything but PvP is a huge class balance issue.

 

Also on a personal note, wanted to say thank you to all the people more active than I was in getting these ready. I truly appreciate all the hard work you all have done and hope that it's rewarded appropriately with good responses.

[Pizzel]

For me I'm glad the Balance question is on hold.. Tanking and deception and the pvp questions seemed a much more pressing matter. Darkness and deception most likely make up the majority of the people who rolled a stealth burst or stealth tank class.

 

The other good reason the balance question got moved is because it is our shared tree. I think it would be much harder to get any wholesale fixes that wouldnt affect the sages one way or another.

 

So as a pvper and used to like tanking. I like the questions and think they address problems/fixes that are more reasonable to expect that bioware will address.

 

The pvp question does worry me though. If there's a derpy oh well pick your fight and using force cloak for offense means your over performing then I will just laugh.. Scoundrels got that response with their "slip away" ability.

[ekimmak]

Ok, here's my take on Balance (even though I play Assassin, and it's Madness, the mirror's shouldn't have that much difference).

 

I tried it once. I just couldn't believe that there was that little to do. I stuck death field, DoT, double strike for the instant recast... what now? I just couldn't get my head around there being nothing but wait till DoTs drop of while spamming thrash.

 

Every other spec I've played, I at least know what I'm waiting for, and it's normally just one or two GCD away, so I find something to sneak in. I was honestly wondering if all this time I was in fact, a horrendously bad player, because of all the complaints about it being simple and I couldn't understand the spec's rotation. (Given that I've been able to turn games of Huttball around with a well-timed Operative attack, I don't think I'm that bad a player, just unintuitive)

 

I'm just hoping that it's simply because I hadn't learnt the timing for the spec, and given how dull it is, I have no wish to.

[LoRdTyRANTz]

I play all the classes and there is not one class that spams the same ability over and over like a madness assassin does. I am happy with the questions because they are all fairly concise. However question 2 and 3 almost seem similar to me. Infiltration dps is primarily contained in the initial opener and is fairly uncontrollable after that due to the unreliability of low proc rates, low crit chances and too long wait itmes on the cd's. Still wished we could of combined those and made a question for balance being the most boring spec in the game. Edited September 15, 2013 by LoRdTyRANTz

[oaceen]

I play all the classes and there is not one class that spams the same ability over and over like a madness assassin does.

 

i would like to introduce to my good friend grav round

[ConCube]

i would like to introduce to my good friend grav round

 

Forcelightning for Madnesssorcerers ..

[DarthSpekulatius]

off topic

 

 

i would like to introduce to my good friend grav round

that doesn't count it deals decent Damage

 

Forcelightning for Madnesssorcerers ..

not the same you can get the insta Proc from every FL and rarely have to use it twice in a Row because it takes the space of two attacks, my sage is only 35 but even on that level I have more Tools at my disposal then with my Balance Shadow, I can even throw rocks. that said my Sage isn't as much fun as my Mando was

though i wouldn't say no to cutting the TKT casttime in half on my sage:p

 

i would like to introduce to my good friend grav round

what else could you wish? oh right a means to heal to full on the run to the next group (kolto Bomb)

(can't say much about fights that last longer I'm running heal for Group stuff but I was told by a Mando DD that I'm Ineffective if i don't use anything else )

 

and last those classes were that way before 2.0 and you didn't get to read that

 

[sainik]

i would like to introduce to my good friend grav round

 

Forcelightning for Madnesssorcerers ..

 

For me the issue is not the comparison of balance/madness to other specs/classes, but more the comparison of balance/madness as it is now to how it was in 1.7. The spec i had so much fun with for over a year is no longer fun to me, and that's my problem. I know that is not something they might care about, but that's how I feel anyways.

[ArchangelLBC]

i would like to introduce to my good friend grav round

 

lol no way. I mean I spam grav round a lot too, but it still isn't as bad as balance shadow, and at least Grav Round is useful on multiple levels (1 proc, 1 stacking buff, 1 armor debuff).

[Majspuffen]

For me the issue is not the comparison of balance/madness to other specs/classes, but more the comparison of balance/madness as it is now to how it was in 1.7. The spec i had so much fun with for over a year is no longer fun to me, and that's my problem. I know that is not something they might care about, but that's how I feel anyways.

 

I feel exactly the same. And I'm really curious as to see whether their changes bolstered the numbers of Balance Shadows or not, because I highly doubt it did. It's also unfair that they called the 1.7 Balance Shadow "clunky", when the new one is a lot more clunky than the old. Not to mention Infiltration, that is the clunkiest gameplay I've ever seen for sustained dps.

[EricMusco]

Paring down the shadow/assassin questions (particularly as this is the first set between the mirrors) was very, very difficult. There are a lot of issues right now that affect the advanced class. I could have easily asked 8 or 9 questions, all of nearly equal priority. However, we have three questions, and we needed to make them count. Here they are.

 

Allow me to again extend my thanks to the combat team (for taking the time to answer these questions) and especially to Eric Musco, for organizing the community rep program. Special thanks to Xinika, Oaceen and Airam for the collaboration and editing help, especially on the PvP question.

 

Questions

 

Question 1: Tank Spikiness

 

Shadow/Assassin tanks appear to be balanced around the following design philosophy: least healing required over time but the most healing required in short intervals. Shadows/assassins require on average 5% less external healing than vanguards/powertechs in Nightmare-level content (based on mean mitigation accounting for self-heal at an average pre-mitigation DtPS of 5200). Unfortunately, the numbers also show that the spike damage tradeoff is grossly out of proportion: shadows/assassins are between 20% and 50% more likely to die on fights than vanguards/powertechs (based on simulations, combat logs and "death risk" probabilistic modeling).

 

You have stated in the past that shadow/assassin tanks are meant to be "skill" tanks. However, the spike damage data indicates that shadow/assassin player skill gets eclipsed by RNG, making shadows/assassins rely on lucky shield and defense procs. The 5% fail chance of Resilience/Force Shroud only makes things worse, since we currently only have one guaranteed defensive CD.

 

As a result, shadow/assassin tanks are regarded as almost unhealable in 16 man content, and in disfavor among many 8 man raiding groups. The community supports your tank design principles, but opines that shadow/assassin tanks are in need of a design reevaluation based on their current performance in actual raids. We are in agreement that the short-term versus long-term healing tradeoff is valid; however, the short-term healing currently required definitively outweighs any increased efficiency. Could you elaborate on the mathematical models used to relatively balance the tanks with respect to efficiency and spike damage? Are there any planned future improvements to mitigation or cooldowns that will rebalance our performance?

 

 

Question 2: PvP DPS

 

In competitive PvP, the damage from both shadow/assassin DPS trees is very easily countered. The burst from infiltration/deception, while significant, is generally confined to the opener. A team only has to play defensively for a few seconds, after which the shadow/assassin becomes a negligible threat and an easy kill. Balance/Madness lacks any burst window whatsoever, and their setup time is so long that by the time they ramp up, they're already dead.

 Our fear is that neither spec is competitive in arenas. What improvements can we expect for shadow/assassin PvP DPS of both trees? What have your metrics shown regarding shadows/assassins of all specs in arenas on the PTS?

 

 

Question 3: Infiltration/Deception

 

Infiltration/Deception supplies neither on-demand burst nor reliable sustained damage. Outside of its 90 second cooldowns, the spec has almost no control over its burst windows. (the Low Slash -> Shadow Strike/Maul combo is far too expensive to use in rotation, even when burst is required) Moreover, due to random procs and a general dependence on critical hits, it suffers from a strong reliance on RNG rather than player skill. These factors make infiltration/deception unreliable and undesired in top-tier PvE content.

 

The community feels that infiltration/deception needs either more burst control or more reliable sustain. What sort of quality-of-life changes or rotation adjustments might we see to rectify either of these issues?

 

 

Bonus Issues

 

What follows is not a set of questions, and I don't expect a direct developer response on any of these issues. However, Eric has repeatedly stated in the past that he uses the question threads as a source of player feedback for the developers. I figured that it wouldn't hurt to enumerate some of the "runner up" issues in a structured way.

 

• Phase Walk is a terrible ability, even with the changes coming in 2.4. Its usefulness as a teleport is limited to just a handful of PvE encounters (Dash'roode, Styrak and Dread Guard), and has no effect whatsoever on death match style PvP (arenas).
  
• Resilience/Force Shroud is a lesson in false advertising. The tooltip says 100% immunity to force/tech. The fact that it's not 100% is literally game-breaking in objective-oriented PvP. If this ability is intended to provide immunity, it needs to be fixed. If it is intended to be 95%, the tooltip should be updated.
  
• Balance/Madness spec has the least involved rotation in the game by a WIDE margin. It has a single proc which is essentially available on cooldown, and everything else falls into the "refresh on CD; spam your fillers" category. It is, simply put, boring. Also, it is the only spec with no access to the class signature ability (Shadow Strike/Maul).
  
• Survivability is a serious issue in PvP, especially for balance/madness. If the DPS were more controlled and reliable, this would be less of an issue, but as it stands it is far too easy to kill a shadow/assassin relative to the threat they pose to the opposition.
  
• Combat Technique/Dark Charge provide a self-heal which is purely static and does not scale at all with gear. This means that its value as a survivability mechanic is increasingly marginalized as content advances.
  
• Self-healing in general is an extremely poor survivability mechanic as it does not scale with damage taken. This issue makes shadows/assassins incredibly overpowered on low level content relative to the other tanks, but incredibly underpowered on high level content. There are certain Nightmare Mode bosses where vanguards/powertechs are both more efficient to heal over time and easier to heal in short bursts (due to the incoming DtPS out-pacing the static value of the self-heal).
  
• In Infiltration/Deception, Force Breach/Discharge is locked out by 3 stacks of Breaching Shadows/Static Charge, which procs off of Infiltration Technique/Surging Charge. This proc can be triggered by the use of Force Breach/Discharge itself. Unfortunately, when this happens, the proc is wasted as it (and subsequent charge increment) is considered before the charges are consumed by Force Breach/Discharge.
  

 

I shall pass this on to the development team. Although it is unlikely you will see answers to things outside of the top 3, your bonus section is indeed a good starting point for me to gather overall feedback.

 

-eric

[ConCube]

I shall pass this on to the development team. Although it is unlikely you will see answers to things outside of the top 3, your bonus section is indeed a good starting point for me to gather overall feedback.

 

-eric

 

At last someone's caring ...

[oaceen]

lol no way. I mean I spam grav round a lot too, but it still isn't as bad as balance shadow, and at least Grav Round is useful on multiple levels (1 proc, 1 stacking buff, 1 armor debuff).

 

the quote i was replying to said no class spams an ability more.

 

 

let's look at the dps leaderboards thread for a quick comparison:

 

arsenal merc

 

balance shadow

 

tracer missile, 70 hits, 898 dps

 

double strike, 144 hits, 1617 dps

 

but wait, double strike hits... double, so that's 72 times vs 70 times (~3% difference) and actually a lot more dps actually to the guy who said grav round does more