the SUPER but still fairly secret space project! Where's the buzz?!

[LordArtemis]

The problem is, by the time something is on PTS, it is really hard to make significant changes to how it actually works from a game mechanics perspective. Sure they can fix bugs and change stats based on feedback, but when it comes to actual mechanics, that needs to be done in the development phase. And that is why they need to share their plans with us now, so we can say whether we like the mechanics they are designing.

 

There is no rule that says they can't pull it from the PTS, rework it and put it back up. They have pulled items from PTS in the past that had too many problems or just simply didnt work.

[Hambunctious]

To me, a canned story featuring canned characters is not an RPG, it's an interactive movie.

 

I think the best example of the difference between a "traditional" RPG and an "console" RPG recently is Fallout 3 and New Vegas. F3 is a pure adventure game where you play through a canned, linear story as a canned, pre-designed character. NV is an open-ended RPG where you can be anything you want and influence the world in many different ways. F3 has the more coherent story because it's entirely scripted, NV is the much better RPG because it's not scripted to nearly the same degree. I'll sacrifice that story to make (or imagine) my own any day.

 

That's my only beef with the stories in TOR. They are well done, sometimes great, with great cinematics and voice acting but I just feel like I'm watching a movie, not part of a story.

 

I would prefer more free form myself, and dynamic persistent worlds that reflected the changes we've made to it.

[The_Grand_Nagus]

There is no rule that says they can't pull it from the PTS, rework it and put it back up. They have pulled items from PTS in the past that had too many problems or just simply didnt work.

 

Of course there is no "rule", and that is a ridiculous thing to even say. My point is that it is much easier to get input early in the design process than to wait until is actually developed and on PTS. Do you actually disagree with that or are you just being ridiculous?

Edited September 12, 2013 by The_Grand_Nagus

[Arkerus]

The problem is, by the time something is on PTS, it is really hard to make significant changes to how it actually works from a game mechanics perspective. Sure they can fix bugs and change stats based on feedback, but when it comes to actual mechanics, that needs to be done in the development phase. And that is why they need to share their plans with us now, so we can say whether we like the mechanics they are designing.

 

You started out so well. You were so close to nailing it and then you lost me...when you said this:

 

And that is why they need to share their plans with us now, so we can say whether we like the mechanics they are designing

 

The biggest mistake is letting the game be designed by committee. Its a classic developer error. Look at firefall. The developers share everything and now they can't even figure out what their game is. Designing by committee never works because its too open ended and has no solid goals. Its design failure 101. Its never done and its never right. The developers just pulled out PvP because PvP failed when designd by committee.

 

BIoware needs to finish their vision for space combat so we have a solid operational basis to work from.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Arkerus

[The_Grand_Nagus]

The biggest mistake is letting the game be designed by committee.

 

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is called a "straw man" argument. I never said they should do exactly what we tell them. Heck, there is no unanimous community voice anyway; we are a community made up of many different people with many different opinions on how things should be done. So, getting back to my actual point and not the fictitious straw man you turned my post into, the sooner they share their plans with us, the sooner we can give them our OPINIONS on those plans. Which parts of the communities feedback they choose to listen to is completely up to them. But if they decide changes need to be made based on player feedback(which is not the same thing as "design by committee"), then it is a heck of a lot easier to do before mechanics start being hard coded.

Edited September 12, 2013 by The_Grand_Nagus

[Arkerus]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is called a "straw man" argument. I never said they should do exactly what we tell them. Heck, there is no unanimous community voice anyway; we are a community made up of many different people with many different opinions on how things should be done. But getting back to my ACTUAL point and not the fictitious straw man point you implied that I made, the sooner they share their plans with us, the sooner we can give them our OPINIONS on those plans. Which parts of the communities feedback they choose to listen to is completely up to them.

 

And the sooner those opinions can derail the final project (as if they would he so dumb as to let you do tha). There is no strawman. What you want is design by committee. You can hide it behind...opinions... but the fact is YOU want say in the final product and to that good sir I say "nay".

 

Let Bioware finish the product. Design by forum doesn't work. Oh sorry, you just want to give feedback. Yep.. Gotcha.

 

 

What bioware can, and should do, is reveal feature videos that show what the final product will be.

[The_Grand_Nagus]

What you want is design by committee.

 

Unfortunately, you just turned yourself into a liar. You see, you cannot read my mind, just like I cannot read yours. That being the case, when you say I want something that I know I do not want, then you become a liar. I am the only one who can tell you what I want, and I do not want the developers to do whatever the community tells them, "which is design by committee". What I do want is for them to be open early in the process and start getting feedback when it is the easiest to make changes. What feedback they listen to, if any, is completely up to them. They are the ones that make the final call, not the community. Now, if you disagree with my argument, then feel free to explain why. But lying isnt going to help you do it.

Edited September 13, 2013 by The_Grand_Nagus

[calypsissmexy]

A quick lesson in hype and disappointment through trailers.

 

The gungans marching through the fog.

 

In the trailer, it was one of the coolest images I had seen in my short little life. In the movie...

 

Lesson: Believe NOTHING until you can poke it with a stick.

[ImperialSun]

You just turned yourself into a liar. You see, you cannot read my mind, just like I cannot read yours. That being the case, when you say I want something that I know I do not want, then you become a liar. I am the only one who can tell you what I want, and I do not want the developers to do whatever the community tells them, "which is design by committee". What I do want is for them to be open early in the process and start getting feedback when it is the easiest to make changes. What feedback they listen to, if any, is completely up to them. They are the ones that make the final call, not the community. If you disagree with my argument, then please explain why. But lying wont help you do it.

 

Yes and communism works perfectly in theory too...

 

Opening up the design process to player feedback too early in the process will always devolve into a committee....and all players would ultimately expect THEIR feedback to be adopted with a sure fire **** storm if it wasnt. The one common denominator on the forum is the fact that every single poster thinks they know better than everyone else including the devs most of the time.....

 

A camel is a horse designed by committee after all...

 

Driz

[The_Grand_Nagus]

A quick lesson in hype and disappointment through trailers.

 

The gungans marching through the fog.

 

In the trailer, it was one of the coolest images I had seen in my short little life. In the movie...

 

Lesson: Believe NOTHING until you can poke it with a stick.

 

Thank goodness, we finally have that post out of the way. Now let the irresponsibly wild speculation and hype continue!

[The_Grand_Nagus]

Opening up the design process to player feedback too early in the process will always devolve into a committee.

 

False. As I said in an earlier post, there is no unanimous community voice. What we have are a lot of different people that want a lot of different things. The devs get to decide which things they agree with or want to incorporate into their plans. The community has absolutely no control over what actually happens.

 

and all players would ultimately expect THEIR feedback to be adopted with a sure fire **** storm if it wasnt.

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of MMO forums. People are always going to witch and bine about everything. But the fact remains, IF a developer actually wants to sift through the hive of scum and villany that is the forums for feedback, it is easier to make changes earlier in development than later.

Edited September 13, 2013 by The_Grand_Nagus

[ImperialSun]

False. As I said in an earlier post, there is no unanimous community voice. What we have are a lot of different people that want a lot of different things. The devs get to decide which things they agree with or want to incorporate into their plans. The community has absolutely no control over what actually happens.

 

 

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of MMO forums. People are always going to witch and bine about everything. But the fact remains, IF a developer actually wants to sift through the hive of scum and villany that is the forums for feedback, it is easier to make changes earlier in development than later.

 

False.

 

You are right there is no unanimous community opinion on anything...which means any open design discussion will devolve into a committee.

 

No matter which ideas were adopted, those that were not would result in resentment and a bitterness from the 90% of players who were not listened to.

 

If your utopian ideal works why is it that no development house does it?

 

Players should be involved in testing and making suggestions on QoL features but not core design decisions...

 

You could achieve what you claim to want by having a closed forum where devs keep us in the loop in terms of design, thereby sharing their plans earlier (which is what you want right?) without giving players the ability to post and make demands in that forum...

 

Driz

[The_Grand_Nagus]

False.

 

As they say, imitation is the greatest form of flattery, so I suppose I am flattered that you are now copying me

 

You are right there is no unanimous community opinion on anything...which means any open design discussion will devolve into a committee.

 

Except the devs are the only ones who actually decide what happens. They are the only "committe"(since there are many different people on the dev team). The people posting on the forums have absolutely no control over what happens, therefore they are not part of any design committee.

Edited September 13, 2013 by The_Grand_Nagus

[ImperialSun]

As they say, imitation is the greatest form of flattery, so I suppose I am flattered that you are now copying me

 

 

 

Except the devs are the only ones who actually decide what happens. They are the only "committe"(since there are many different people on the dev team). The people posting on the forums have absolutely no control over what happens, therefore they are not part of any design committee.

 

Then you should have no problem with devs sharing design decisions earlier without any mechanism for player feedback which will cause more trouble than its worth.

 

Like I said no MMORPG developer does as you suggest...there is a reason for that

 

Driz

[The_Grand_Nagus]

Then you should have no problem with devs sharing design decisions earlier without any mechanism for player feedback which will cause more trouble than its worth.

 

Trouble for who, exactly? Not the developers. Despite all of the complaining, the only reason people can post on these forums is because they are paying Bioware money. All of this complaining isnt hurting the developers one bit; its actually lining their pockets.

Edited September 13, 2013 by The_Grand_Nagus

[Marcell]

O.o /happydance

 

Any timing yet?

[ImperialSun]

Trouble for who, exactly? Not the developers. Despite all of the complaining, the only reason people can post on these forums is because they are paying Bioware money. All of this complaining isnt hurting the developers one bit.

 

Trouble for the community because your idea will create even more bitterness and drama than we see already...ergo trouble for the mods and community team.

 

Also trouble for the devs because they should be designing game mechanics in line with their vision and not an amalgamation of demands incorporated to placate a raft of angry posters who will want detailed answers as to why each and every one of their own suggestions has not been adopted. This would create a distraction from what they should be doing....

 

Im curious...you claim to simply want the devs to share design details earlier than they do now...nothing more. So why does that even need a mechanism for players to make requests and demands? All you need to achieve your goal is a one way communication channel with no need for players to offer feedback that early in the process....

 

Unless of course you actually do want design by committee?

 

Otherwise a one way forum board with no reply button is all you need.

 

Driz

[The_Grand_Nagus]

Im curious...you claim to simply want the devs to share design details earlier than they do now...nothing more.

 

False. If you are going to reply to my posts, at least read what I have written:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6748784&postcount=72

 

I think the devs should listen to feedback. But "listening" does not necessarily mean making changes based on it. But if they do make changes, it does not mean doing every single thing they are asked. They are the ones who should make the call, because at the end of the day they are the professional game designers. However, they should still take into consideration the feedback of their customers. And if any changes are to be made, it is easier to do in the design phase than after the content has already been developed.

Edited September 13, 2013 by The_Grand_Nagus

[Marcell]

False. If you are going to reply to my posts, at least read what I have written:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6748784&postcount=72

 

I think the devs should listen to feedback. But "listening" does not necessarily mean making changes based on it. But if they do make changes, it does not mean doing every single thing they are asked. They are the ones who should make the call, because at the end of the day they are the professional game designers. However, they should still take into consideration the feedback of their customers. And if any changes are to be made, it is easier to do in the design phase than after the content has already been developed.

I'm pretty sure that after SOE's massive failure with the NGE virus that MMOs at least pay some attention to their active subscriber base...I hope at least

[The_Grand_Nagus]

I'm pretty sure that after SOE's massive failure with the NGE virus that MMOs at least pay some attention to their active subscriber base...I hope at least

 

Thank you. You just provided an excellent example of a "super secret project"(which ironically was for another Star Wars MMO) that the developers did not tell people about until it was too late.

[aeterno]

Does looping the last 10 seconds of Hope trailer count as buzz heh?

[LordArtemis]

Of course there is no "rule", and that is a ridiculous thing to even say. My point is that it is much easier to get input early in the design process than to wait until is actually developed and on PTS. Do you actually disagree with that or are you just being ridiculous?

 

I got your point. I would say that easier does not matter either, but you would probably say I'm being ridiculous again.

 

It was just my opinion. The efforts to have them change it now internally will be no more successful than the efforts do so after it is on the PTS...the only difference will be direct feedback on the actual product from actual players.

 

Based on your post history in this thread, I'm guessing you take offense to any opinion that they should keep the details close to the vest....Are you interested in having a conversation, or just interested in being a one man crusade?

 

 

I know...I know....I'm being ridiculous.

Edited September 13, 2013 by LordArtemis