No Intentional Hybrid Tax

[Andryah]

Just because I have a healing ability vs. a stealth ability doesn't mean you should gimp my DPS. In fact, I'll argue that the ability to stealth out of combat at any time, is by far the greatest defensive ability in ANY game. Give my Troopers the ability to stealth out of combat at any time and you can have the heals and the taunts.

 

Well I have known this about you for a long time.. but it bears repeating... you have a very limited and local (self) view of the classes. Not big picture at all. Which is OK.. you are entitled to take any view you like. But it makes conversation with you kind of pointless.. because you really are not interested in the wider view of class balance across the classes, the encounters, and the rest of the games content. You want to make it all about NiM Nightmare in one paragraph and PvP in another. Very disconnected thinking IMO.. and hence you will never see anything even remotely close to the perspective or choices the devs face balancing and managing the entire game rather then your little fish bowl.

 

You're pretending that Snipers and Marauders don't have similar (or better) defensive capabilities.

 

Uh.. no. I am acknowledging that they cannot heal nor provide much in the way of utility augmentation to a group other then a debuff here and there.. which every class can do in one way or another. They have one simple and clear role.. dps well and don't steal the agro.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Andryah

[oaceen]

there should not be any comparisons of class versus class, honestly.

 

 

infiltration is a pure dps spec. gunnery is a pure dps spec. watchman is a pure dps spec.

a dirty fighting smuggler, whether it is a scoundrel or gunslinger, is still a PURE DPS SPEC.

 

 

watchman can actually heal quite a lot, and usually does heal quite a lot more than anyone who's not actually specced for healing, but no one in their right mind would call it a hybrid spec.

 

 

and then you get into comparing certain sentinel / gunslinger specs to others and finding out that not all of them are within 5% of each other either. the 'well, it's a pure dps class, it should do more' obviously fails to apply here, because you can only be one spec, not your whole class, at any given time.

Edited September 11, 2013 by oaceen

[Andryah]

there should not be any comparisons of class versus class, honestly.

 

I agree with you.. but isn't that exactly where every discussion even remotely close to your topic runs of into? It's even the premise of taxation "one class is taxed and another is not... the tax free class is superior because raid leaders will only accept that class.. yada yada."

 

The audience in MMOs is perpetually fixated on comparing their class performance to some other class, and demanding changes to class and balance on that basis. It's nothing unique to this MMO by any means either.

[Andryah]

you can only be one spec, not your whole class, at any given time.

 

Which IMO argues FOR my proposal to enable a deep spec tree which results in class purifying changes to what the tree is intended for. If you go 36 deep into a DPS tree.. you should be near the top of the theory crafters analysis and you should forfeit your utility of the class as well for as long as you are spec'ed deep DPS.

 

I don't care if they achieve it through /stances that are enabled by the spec points in the tree. or any of a dozen other methods. Whatever is simplest. But it's a superior alternative to micro-tweaking a class slowly over time, which does not achieve what players are asking for and just makes people madder over time.

 

Frankly.. the response you quoted in your OP demonstrates to me that they don't really know how to address the player complaints yet. Then again..they have to juggle the full class set and the entire game content from 1-55.. so I can sort of empathize with their challenge.

 

Gee.. I sure hope I was not too critical of Bioware here.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Andryah

[Master-Nala]

Might I make a suggestion to those who are annoyed at Andryah or any other poster. Don't respond. Just discuss the topic and act like the poster who annoys you doesn't exist. I am always surprised at people letting Andryah troll them for 5-10 pages.

 

On-topic, I do not believe that it is necessary to impose any penalty to a damage spec because their class has a healing or tank spec. I do think that heals/taunts should work differently when specced for damage. For example, to carry 'heal to full' to a logical conclusion, you might make Dark Heal have a cool down, but be an instant and off the GCD for damage specs. This might require stances for Sages/Sorcerers and Scoundrels/Operatives, but IMO that is an opportunity. Stances allow you to enforce a role without needing to force players into a full commitment into a spec.

 

That all tank possible classes have stances makes it quite silly to me that damage specs suffer any diminution of their damage. Guard doesn't work for those specs and they lose the mitigation offered by the tank stance. Draw more benefits to the stances and make more powers work differently in a stance and this problem can be easily solved.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Master-Nala

[Minack]

Well I have known this about you for a long time.. but it bears repeating... you have a very limited and local (self) view of the classes. Not big picture at all. Which is OK.. you are entitled to take any view you like. But it makes conversation with you kind of pointless.. because you really are not interested in the wider view of class balance across the classes, the encounters, and the rest of the games content. You want to make it all about NiM Nightmare in one paragraph and PvP in another. Very disconnected thinking IMO.. and hence you will never see anything even remotely close to the perspective or choices the devs face balancing and managing the entire game rather then your little fish bowl.

 

 

 

Uh.. no. I am acknowledging that they cannot heal nor provide much in the way of utility augmentation to a group other then a debuff here and there.. which every class can do in one way or another. They have one simple and clear role.. dps well and don't steal the agro.

 

Bolded, underlined and italicized for irony.

 

I have an honest question. Do you realize how pretentious and arrogant you sound? Maybe you should read your post out loud before you click the submit button. You have the social tact of an eleven year old with Asperger's. Just saying...

 

Anyway,

 

Please regale me on what else there is to do in this game besides high-end PvP and PvE? Maybe my fishbowl has shrunk since hitting 55, but it seems to me that any class disparities are going to be most problematic in Nightmare modes and PvP. Every AC that is fully specced into a tree only has one role. The role of a Vengeance Jugg is pretty much the same as a Carnage Marauder, minus the speed, damage and healing buffs. DPS Powertech has the same role as DPS Merc. The utility that you, and apparently BW, seem to think exists with certain ACs and expertise trees is not practical in the least. The taunt my DPS jugg uses is really only useful in PvP, but only because it's free and I don't suffer any consequences for using it. The same cannot be said for heals on my Lightning Sorc or Scrapper Smuggler. That's some utility alright...

 

Btw, your critique of someone's scope is laughable. Considering you just recently managed to stumble upon the same page the rest of us were already on (You still insist on focusing on the word tax) tells me you are the last person to be discussing class balance and roles, let alone disparage another player's "view".

Edited September 11, 2013 by Minack

[Minack]

Might I make a suggestion to those who are annoyed at Andryah or any other poster. Don't respond. Just discuss the topic and act like the poster who annoys you doesn't exist. I am always surprised at people letting Andryah troll them for 5-10 pages.

 

I used to believe he/she is Andrea Perry, but no employee would feel loyal enough to shill as hard for BW as Andryah does. She obviously has some vested emotional attachment to the game and developers though. Not the least bit healthy. No job position is worth losing self-respect over.

[TheRealTasty]

I'm just gonna go where the lions roar!

[Grayseven]

Hybrid "off" abilities do not make up, at any point, any significant utility in anything but the most basic of game encounters.

 

In HM and NiM Ops, a Gunnery Trooper will not be able to off-heal with any effective utility. If one or both healers go down, then it's a wipe unless the boss in question is looking at the last few percent of his health in which case no one will be healing but pulling out all the stops to drop the Boss before the last PC dies.

 

Sages are in the same boat. They have a self heal that for DPS spec sages might heal enough to counteract one damage ability in PvP and might take some pressure off the healers in a high powered PvE encounter but anyone who has played a DPS Sage knows the futility of trying to use the larger heal while suffering damage that causes knock back on top of the already eternity-like cast time and massive force power cost. Forget off-healing, it just doesn't have the utility people think in progression raiding and PvP.

 

If there is to be a penalty to hybrid DPS, then the effectiveness of utility abilities needs to be increased to compensate and make them viably attractive alternatives to "pure" classes when it comes to raid composition. If a DPS Vanguard might be called to off-tank should a regular tank go down then he should have the survivability to ensure he can provide the utility his decreased DPS is providing.

 

Simply put, the current system blows. The utility isn't there and neither is the DPS which means that these spec's are broken.

[Laiov]

i know it was gleaned from the sorc/sage questions that there was, in fact, an intentional hybrid tax in the game, but perhaps it was just a misunderstanding?

One would hope. However, this new language seems to reassure in a very particular way. The quote talks about adding utility to the so-called hybrid classes in order to correct desirability issues. But if we remember back, sufferers of the hybrid tax in earlier MMOs such as World of Warcraft were once given 'essential utility' to make them desirable. The heal/dps hybrid Shaman having a raid-wide haste cooldown, for example. This was done instead of raising the class' DPS spec output to equal the output of so-called pure DPS classes. Essentially, the objective was to preserve the hybrid tax while blunting social ostracism resulting from it. Although this was a constructive measure, it addressed only part of the problem.

 

Sometimes I get the impression that game devs (not necessarily SW:TOR devs, but devs in general) consider DPS itself a kind of utility. But DPS in an MMO, like tanking or healing, is a role. There's no good way to trade fulfillment of a role for some sort of utility. Not socially anyway. So I think that's where the priority ought to be.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Laiov

[Slipfeed]

For those of you that are new here, Andryah is a paid astroturfer.

 

She must be doing a good job, because she's been on the job since release day.

 

However, arguing with her is pointless. It would be like arguing with a Koch industries PR rep about global warming.

 

He gets paid to ignore you and push his agenda.

 

On the topic, when this game was first introduced, medkits where A LOT better. The kits you could make from biochem, or get strictly for PvP could be used a lot more, and healed for a lot more.

 

Just like most of the balance issues in this game, the issues come from previous nerfs.

 

It was OK for sorcs and sages to be able to dish out a ton of damage and heal, because other classes had 1 or 2 shot combo's in their arsenal, with nice medkits. Things started going downhill in this game fast, when the scoundrel was nerfed into the ground.

 

Now all of a sudden scoundrels have trouble with sorcs, where they used to be able to counter class them in a group PvP environment.

 

So now without that counter class everyone has a bit more trouble with sorcs and sages.

 

There was a huge over reaction.. 1.2 delivered the hardest nerf bat swing to ever hit any class in any mmorpg ever. Simultaneously, a class that was already decent against healers, the sent /mara got huge buffs, medkits got nerfed into oblivion (their third round) and everything hit the fan.

 

Time to live in PvP floored. Operations that used to be doable with a certain raid configuration before the patch required healers to be swapped out. Ops teams broke up. Guilds broke up. People left the game.

 

All was not right with the world.

 

This pretty much put the last nail in the coffins of the medium pop servers.

 

Because of a string of interconnecting over reactive balance changes that where a response to small sample analysis over a short period of time, over population of one class (sorc, but more because we all wanted to throw lightning) and slow response on server merges, this game fell so far short of its target position in the market its not even funny.

 

I applaud the dev team for taking their time, and making small adjustments in balance to see how things play out first.

 

If this had been the attitude to begin with, we wouldn't have to feel like lepers in the gaming community for liking this game.

[BaronV]

A Sniper is a pure DPS class. Agree?

Agree

 

A Marauder is a pure DPS class. Agree?

Agree

A DPS class that can also heal is not. Agree?

Disagree

A tank class that can also DPS is not a pure tank. Agree?

Disagree

 

Just because a certain class has the ability to chose between either roles by speccing into trees that have different roles doesnt necessarily negate the "pureness" (as ridiculous as it sound) of their role.

 

Even if it did, it doesnt justify penalising classes who are specced into one role (eg: DPS) greatly underperforming against a different "pure" class fulfilling the same role, simply because they have the ability to do something else.

 

If my sorc is specced fully into lightning or madness why should I deal much less damage than a Marauder or a sniper just because I have the OPTIONAL ability to bubble up or cast a (pretty useless) heal. The penalty is already inherent in that my heals are mostly ineffective and my damage output has dropped by the very action of spending time healing or using the bubble!

 

The problem is when you ask people about sorcs:

"Why do am I so squishy and take so much damage?" - because you can bubble and heal(2Full) and do a crapload of damage.

 

"Why is it I dont do anywhere as near as much damage as a Marauder or Sniper?" - because you can bubble and heal(2full)

 

see the contradiction there?

 

but oh wait what was I thinking in responding... any "discussion" that takes place opposite you is a complete and utter waste of time...

Edited September 11, 2013 by BaronV

[znihilist]

I would think that the simple fix would be to put the "hybrid" abilities into the appropriate tree.

 

If you don't spec tanking tree, your Vanguard doesn't get any taunts. This can be put high enough into the tree to not hurt low level characters but to prevent anyone but someone actually building a hybrid through the talent tree to get it.

 

If you don't spec heals, your Sage doesn't get the major heal abilities.

 

Balance the DPS through the talent trees by tweaking the talents that modify the primary attack abilities.

 

Hybrids only exist because EA/BW made the class that way for crying out loud. It should be a simple matter to fix it.

 

And for anyone crying out "what about off-heals"...have you ever tried to off-heal in anything that wasn't a SM? You might give one or two players an extra 10 seconds of life but if you are a Gunnery trooper and are trying to fire off heals because both healers went down, your ammo supply is gone in just a few heals...IF you can even get them off. The only off that is effective in this game is the off-tank., which is still a tank.

 

What about tying everything to the stance you have ?

No taunts if you are not in a tank stance, no healing if you are not in healing stance, etc etc.

[oaceen]

What about tying everything to the stance you have ?

No taunts if you are not in a tank stance, no healing if you are not in healing stance, etc etc.

 

the thing is, this line of discussion is no longer relevant now that the devs have reaffirmed their stance that there is no hybrid tax.

 

they went a step further to say that they'll be giving more utility to various specs, not taking any away.

[BaronV]

What about tying everything to the stance you have ?

No taunts if you are not in a tank stance, no healing if you are not in healing stance, etc etc.

 

This is exactly what Andryah wants with her whole "Purity Spec" stuff....

 

Nevermind that it is a fundamental shift in the nature of the classes affected... I suppose it isnt so bad if classes were just implemented like this from the start:

 

Melee Tank

Ranged Tank

Melee DPS

Ranged DPS

Melee Healer (is there??)

Ranged Healer

 

No criss crossing or anything in between.

[Nempo]

any player with 36+ points in vigilance, scrapper, assault specialist, or balance is not a hybrid.

in fact, anyone with 36+ points in any spec is not a hybrid. just because my class affords me some basic healing or a taunt as a baseline, does mean that i am a hybrid.

 

Really? Not a hybrid because you are a DPS Jugg/Guard...actually, yes...you are.

Want to not be a hybrid? Alright, lose every defensive skill you have but one (sent/mara only have 1, not the 3 of guards) lose force push (a KB that is used for utility by a tank as a means of getting a mob/enemy player off of a healer) oh and lose taunt and guard as well, as even not specced as a tank...taunt is a POWERFUL tool when used in the right hands in pvp. Soresu stance when switched to in the middle of combat is also a great way to increase survivability of yourself and another person.

My buddy regularly swaps to soresu and drops guard on my sniper when I get targetted after sniping their healers or best ranged dpsers, together we handle whoever is targetting me then he swaps stances and goes back to dpsing...that "tax" you complain about is a huge boon when in the right hands.

Those are just the things off the top of my head. If you are to tunnelled vision to make use of ALL of your skills, even those you don't specialize in...you aren't making the most of your class.

 

Have access to heals? Toss a heal or two in between attacks on that person at half health. Able to use guard? Swap stances mid combat and make use of it on an as-needed basis. Have taunts? For the love of all that is holy, make USE of it on targets attacking others in PvP.

 

Don't like PvP? Make use of those extra heals you aren't specced for in clinch situations. Tank just go down? Swap stances mid combat and ACT like a tank, just call it out for your healers so they know to start healing you and save the fight...seen competant DPS Guards pull this one off even in nightmare ops. Heck even just taunting a mob on your healer...even as a DPS you still survive longer than a healer with 'anything' beating on you.

 

If you can't be bothered to use those situationol skills? Play a pure dps class and stop griping about a "tax" as PvPers love those "taxes" the PvErs cry about. They allow such delightful clutch wins and clutch saves a pure just isn't capable of.

[hadoken]

Alright, lose every defensive skill you have but one (sent/mara only have 1, not the 3 of guards)

 

Clearly you have no idea what sentinels and marauders have in their toolkits.

[Minack]

Really? Not a hybrid because you are a DPS Jugg/Guard...actually, yes...you are.

Want to not be a hybrid? Alright, lose every defensive skill you have but one (sent/mara only have 1, not the 3 of guards) lose force push (a KB that is used for utility by a tank as a means of getting a mob/enemy player off of a healer) oh and lose taunt and guard as well, as even not specced as a tank...taunt is a POWERFUL tool when used in the right hands in pvp. Soresu stance when switched to in the middle of combat is also a great way to increase survivability of yourself and another person.

My buddy regularly swaps to soresu and drops guard on my sniper when I get targetted after sniping their healers or best ranged dpsers, together we handle whoever is targetting me then he swaps stances and goes back to dpsing...that "tax" you complain about is a huge boon when in the right hands.

Those are just the things off the top of my head. If you are to tunnelled vision to make use of ALL of your skills, even those you don't specialize in...you aren't making the most of your class.

 

Have access to heals? Toss a heal or two in between attacks on that person at half health. Able to use guard? Swap stances mid combat and make use of it on an as-needed basis. Have taunts? For the love of all that is holy, make USE of it on targets attacking others in PvP.

 

Don't like PvP? Make use of those extra heals you aren't specced for in clinch situations. Tank just go down? Swap stances mid combat and ACT like a tank, just call it out for your healers so they know to start healing you and save the fight...seen competant DPS Guards pull this one off even in nightmare ops. Heck even just taunting a mob on your healer...even as a DPS you still survive longer than a healer with 'anything' beating on you.

 

If you can't be bothered to use those situationol skills? Play a pure dps class and stop griping about a "tax" as PvPers love those "taxes" the PvErs cry about. They allow such delightful clutch wins and clutch saves a pure just isn't capable of.

 

You would have saved yourself a lot of typing if you had just said "I don't know what I'm talking about."

 

Using your PUG PvP experience as a balancing benchmark is not a good idea. Marauder has several defensive skills, not just one. It also has more than just damage going for it once you count the group buffs. So the idea of my jug losing force push in some sort of SWTOR version of Sofie's Choice is concerning. FP isn't just a peel, try rolling a few other classes.

 

It's also clear you've never completed any high-end PvE, or at least not as anything except a DPS, because as soon as your tank(s) or healer(s) are down, it's a wipe. No amount of off-healing or DPS taunts will save your terrible group from the enrage timer.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Minack

[AlrikFassbauer]

Thank you for the explanations.

 

I stumbled, however, over this quote from the wowiki : Bold printing by me :

 

This hybrid tax is merely in place to maintain the popularity of pure DPS classes, since there would be a drop in their popularity if hybrid classes could produce the same DPS while having the advantage of taking on other roles as well.

 

Now, if "hybrid taxed" DPS classes are taxed "to maintain popularity of the pure DPS classes", what about healing classes ?

 

I'm not sure if I can get my thoughts into words, but - shouldn't DPS classes be "hybrid taxed" as well, because they cannot heal to full ?

 

I mean - the "hybrid tax" seems to be only applied to damage-making classes. Which means to me that the damage is the element why there is this "hybrid tax" there at all. The damage is the element around the "hybrid tax" evolves, so to say.

 

But damage is not everything we have in the Holy Trinity, as it consists of

 

- damaging

- tanking

- healing.

 

So, shouldn't be there "hybroid taxing" for

 

- tanking

- healing" as well ?

 

Shouldn't classes that can do

 

- part tank, part heal

- part tank, part damaging

- part damage, part heal

- part damage, part tank

- part heal, part damage

- part heal, part tank

 

be "hybrid taxed", too ?

 

Everyone speaks only about "hybrid tax" regarding classes that can partially produce damage. What about the rest ? Tanking ? Healing ?

[Blackardin]

It takes both parties to create and deploy a misunderstanding.

 

Players are want to define what "hybrid tax" means and then imperiously apply the definition to the backs of developers and use it as excuse to flog the devs.

 

Like so many terms and memes in MMO gaming forums.. the term is over used, and without consistent agreement as to what the boundaries of such a term in actual use and meaning are actually fair discussion. It's become a weapon to apply against the devs.

 

I think a better way to discuss it is not in absolutes, but in relative terms. All hybrids, by definition have a "tax" of some sort or another upon them in MMOs. The real discussion is not about flogging the devs over a term.. but rather.. is the penalty for being a hybrid in balance, or is it too extreme.

 

Unfortunately when discussing hybrid classes.. players will never reach consensus.. because they each want different things maximized in their particular use of any particular hybrid. The DPS guy wants no DPS penalties. The Healing guy wants no Healing penalties, and the Utility guy wants no compromise on utility. To please all parties.. you would have to make an over-powered class... and that should not happen.

 

Hybrid classes are by definition "compromises" in abilities to seek a relative balance while offering flexibility outside of pure class constraints. Players in my experience have little appreciation for this reality.. and instead focus on their special interests. The only thing the players agree on is that the devs are evil people who are out to destroy their particular desired class nuance in a hybrid.

 

If you want "pure" class play results.. don't play a hybrid. Don't compromise if you can't handle the results. Stick to pure trinity roles.

 

Any MMO veteran knows that in reality hybrid classes are imperfect and will always be imperfect.. yet players want their personal version of perfection stamped into the hybrid anyway. Not very realistic to be honest.

 

This.....but be aware, it will make some heads explode trying to grasp the concept. ;p

[Nempo]

You would have saved yourself a lot of typing if you had just said "I don't know what I'm talking about."

 

Using your PUG PvP experience as a balancing benchmark is not a good idea. Marauder has several defensive skills, not just one. It also has more than just damage going for it once you count the group buffs. So the idea of my jug losing force push in some sort of SWTOR version of Sofie's Choice is concerning. FP isn't just a peel, try rolling a few other classes.

 

It's also clear you've never completed any high-end PvE, or at least not as anything except a DPS, because as soon as your tank(s) or healer(s) are down, it's a wipe. No amount of off-healing or DPS taunts will save your terrible group from the enrage timer.

 

It is actually not PuG PvP, considering whenver all of us are on we dominate anyone and everyone, sad be it that you don't know how to make full use of your skills.

 

Yes, Sent/Mara have more than one relative defensive ability, however most are excessively situational and lacking in the general purpose defensives of the Guard/Jugg, but you wish to split hairs so by all means continue. Exactly, group buffs /golfclap, while usefull, they are buff that are usefull while solo or in a group and become natural part of the rotation while playing one.

 

Really? Haven't completed high level content? Miss the NM OP comment? I was the main tank that went down when my healer got distracted by her husband asking her a question, as soon as I saw death was happenning I called out for a specific DPSer to change and taunt. Guess what? Boss died as I was scrapped off the floor. Yes, you can survive...for LONG? No of course not. But it works in a clinch when you go down and it can be rescued if you actually try and people co-ordinate for that last push. Hell no they won't survive for 10% but they will survive long enough (especially if the DPS guard/jugg has a shield gen equipped which in testing lowers DPS output by only 2-4% assuming you have augments and again this would be a designated individual). Those who cannot believe it can happen are those who really don't think outside the box or play with those able to adjust that fast. This game's nightmare mode is not that demanding, it really isn't when you compare it to Aion raids or DAoC raiding. You want to wave the flag some more, come back when you have to co-ordinate 6 tanks in rotation while accounting for randomized attack patterns in the boss with 2 random assault skills on the boss that will wipe out someone if the tanks don't keep a specific defensive skill ready to be used on the target of it, said skills being used so fast you need DPSers built from said tank classes to make additional use of the skill thanks to CD limitations. By comparison, these are easy raids.

 

FP's primary purpose is a peel, the PRIMARY purpose of the skill, yes...it has wonderfull application in huttball in covorering LARGE amounts of ground when used properly, or even to get to a turret quickly by leap>fp>leap>guard leap. I'm sorry did I just blow your mind? I speak of primary uses. You don't waste FP as an interupt unless you are a nub. If you are workign in conjunction with a team, FP will be used most often as nothing but a peel to buy breathing room. Sadly Minack, it sounds more like you don't know what you are talking about or are assuming far too much. I was speaking in primary purposes and general purposes of skills. When speaking of a skill, primary purpose is the defining point of the skill, as stated, FP is ment as a peel in PvP and as a gather skill forcing PvE enemies into AoE location/KBKO location. Other uses are secondary uses. I'm going to assume you are self righteously up in arms because you use it as an opener on slingers/snipers right? Yup...congratulations, that is known as situational use...a use that is, as stated, situational and not a primary purpose. Besides, in true group play your own ranged will worry about that individual and let you focus on the targets you CAN leap to with impunity, that sage/sorc hiding in the back always being the perfect target if you arent on guard duty needing to keep close to your own healer.

 

Of course, this is the main problem with speaking of PvP as everyone claims to be an expert and others simply don't know enough. The fact is I don't theorycraft without actually putting something into action. I try things out with my crew while fighting other organized groups. 4 on 4 and 8 on 8 deathmatch play on tatooine properly organized with everyone in TS (teams in there own rooms) to see how well certain things work and others which are oh so common in the PuGs that quite simply fail against an organized group. Take what is learned to the actual WZs and see how it plays out against both PuG crews and obviously organized pre-made crews. I am by no means an expert and regularly make my mistakes typically while laughing about how stupid the mistake was, however I also regularly see people claiming to be PvP gods who get rolled right over because they won't make use of their off-spec skills.

[Blackardin]

Agree

 

 

If my sorc is specced fully into lightning or madness why should I deal much less damage than a Marauder or a sniper just because I have the OPTIONAL ability to bubble up or cast a (pretty useless) heal. The penalty is already inherent in that my heals are mostly ineffective and my damage output has dropped by the very action of spending time healing or using the bubble!

 

The problem is when you ask people about sorcs:

"Why do am I so squishy and take so much damage?" - because you can bubble and heal(2Full) and do a crapload of damage.

 

 

This is the only valid argument I see, in that this particular class cannot spec out of the "supposed" hybrid stance and is penalized as a result. Minor healing, minor defensive cooldowns do not a hybrid make.

[Blackardin]

Really? Haven't completed high level content? Miss the NM OP comment? I was the main tank that went down when my healer got distracted by her husband asking her a question, as soon as I saw death was happenning I called out for a specific DPSer to change and taunt. Guess what? Boss died as I was scrapped off the floor. Yes, you can survive...for LONG? No of course not. But it works in a clinch when you go down and it can be rescued if you actually try and people co-ordinate for that last push.

 

Ats a very weak argument if you are contending that a "hybrid" can maintain a trinity role. Hell, my sniper has done that by peeling aggro and rolling away with a few cooldowns. LOL

[Nempo]

Thank you for the explanations.

 

I stumbled, however, over this quote from the wowiki : Bold printing by me :

 

 

 

Now, if "hybrid taxed" DPS classes are taxed "to maintain popularity of the pure DPS classes", what about healing classes ?

 

I'm not sure if I can get my thoughts into words, but - shouldn't DPS classes be "hybrid taxed" as well, because they cannot heal to full ?

 

I mean - the "hybrid tax" seems to be only applied to damage-making classes. Which means to me that the damage is the element why there is this "hybrid tax" there at all. The damage is the element around the "hybrid tax" evolves, so to say.

 

But damage is not everything we have in the Holy Trinity, as it consists of

 

- damaging

- tanking

- healing.

 

So, shouldn't be there "hybroid taxing" for

 

- tanking

- healing" as well ?

 

Shouldn't classes that can do

 

- part tank, part heal

- part tank, part damaging

- part damage, part heal

- part damage, part tank

- part heal, part damage

- part heal, part tank

 

be "hybrid taxed", too ?

 

Everyone speaks only about "hybrid tax" regarding classes that can partially produce damage. What about the rest ? Tanking ? Healing ?

 

The general purpose for taxing pure DPS is due to the fact tanks and healers are so rare, usually due to people not wanting the responsibility. They want to see big numbers in PvE damage charts on raid bosses.

 

Those who love to tank or love to heal will do so pretty much no matter if any tax exists while doing either activity.

 

Typically, PvE community embraces pure classes/builds while the PvP community embraces hybrid classes/builds.

[hadoken]

So, shouldn't be there "hybroid taxing" for

 

- tanking

- healing" as well ?

 

Shouldn't classes that can do

 

- part tank, part heal

- part tank, part damaging

- part damage, part heal

- part damage, part tank

- part heal, part damage

- part heal, part tank

 

be "hybrid taxed", too ?

 

Everyone speaks only about "hybrid tax" regarding classes that can partially produce damage. What about the rest ? Tanking ? Healing ?

 

Well there are no such ACs that can both heal and tank (nor is there such a thing as a pure tank or pure healer as far as an AC goes), so you can't really apply a tax to something that doesn't exist. Right now the hybrid tax does apply to the dps/heal and dps/tank ACs, as the pure dps classes trounce them all by a significant amount in the dps role. This is something they indicated yesterday is not intentional and they want to decrease the gap.

 

So it's confusing to me why there's a couple people in this thread trying to defend a stance that isn't intended by the devs. They think they're defending BioWare but what they're doing is defending an accident.