Why do people still guard healers in flashpoints?

[Xakthul]

The problem is.... when all the healers wanna group together, guess who gets picked as the fourth member? I usually have two healers covering me, along with one covering the one I didn't guard.

[Mowermanx]

All this being said...there really is almost no reason to guard anyone in FPs.

Fixed for accuracy.

[LordFen]

When I tank I normaly guard the healer mainly because,

1) I need the healer alive and focuse on healing not running around healing them self from agro.

2) as long as I am alive the tank and getting agro theres very high chance the mob/boss will be defeated.

3) despite healing only doing 0.5 per 1 point of heal, comming for a pvp experinces where 1 healer can out heal the dps of 3 dps healers can take alot of agro.

[AdrianDmitruk]

When I tank I normaly guard the healer mainly because,

1) I need the healer alive and focuse on healing not running around healing them self from agro.

2) as long as I am alive the tank and getting agro theres very high chance the mob/boss will be defeated.

3) despite healing only doing 0.5 per 1 point of heal, comming for a pvp experinces where 1 healer can out heal the dps of 3 dps healers can take alot of agro.

 

And if healer is accustomed to throwing grenades around in PVP and finds himself in situation where adds are going straight for him, and out of habit throws grenades to buy time to heal to full...well that just gives healer even more aggro in the end

 

(true story lol)

[Solloby]

Rereading the tooltip for Guard:

 

While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat. In addition, so long as you remain within 15 meters of the guarded player, 50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transferred back to you. Requires Soresu Form.

 

The 5% less damage applies in PVE, so there's really no reason to not have this up on another player if you are a tank.

[sithBracer]

When I tank I normaly guard the healer mainly because,

1) I need the healer alive and focuse on healing not running around healing them self from agro.

 

A healer will only get attacked by enemies who are left untouched, so its usually a DPS fail when dps go after the gold/silvers immediately. Even when I just do 2 regular hits on enemies as a tank they will never attack the healer. It's .5 split over all the enemies, so if the healer heals for 5000, he only gets 2500 aggro split among the enemies (so if 5 enemies, 500 per enemy, when a dps can do a minimum of 1400 damage per attack it's not much).

 

If an enemy is left alone, then guard will do nothing for aggro, your healer will only get the 5% reduction but will most likely run away anyway and lose guard.

 

2) as long as I am alive the tank and getting agro theres very high chance the mob/boss will be defeated.

 

Unless you are the worst tank in the world, a healer should never be able to take a boss away from you, as for mob, the only ones who attack the healer are the ones left untouched, so its a tank/dps fail.

 

3) despite healing only doing 0.5 per 1 point of heal, comming for a pvp experinces where 1 healer can out heal the dps of 3 dps healers can take alot of agro.

 

Your PvP dps sucked, the healer was left free casting or was under guard and your team couldn't figure out to either kill the tank or separate the healer from the tank. Either way, it's 0.5 spread out evenly, in a worst case scenario where there are 2 enemies, the tank and one dps are on one and the other weaker dps is on the other, the chances of a healer taking aggro from that weaker dps are extremely rare. I as a healer have never been able to do this, I even tried on purpose a few times.

[cxten]

Your PvP dps sucked, the healer was left free casting or was under guard and your team couldn't figure out to either kill the tank or separate the healer from the tank. Either way, it's 0.5 spread out evenly, in a worst case scenario where there are 2 enemies, the tank and one dps are on one and the other weaker dps is on the other, the chances of a healer taking aggro from that weaker dps are extremely rare. I as a healer have never been able to do this, I even tried on purpose a few times.

 

Best I can come up with: Sage healer pre-drops salvation, and fight starts with a big aoe hitting all four party members for at least 4k (so your salvation will be effective healing for a bit). Sage pops mental alacrity and force potency and hits two crit deliverances in four seconds (on the tank who is apparently taking over 5k damage/second even after the initial aoe). This is, in full kell dragon and with a roughly average number of crits on the salvation 900*4*4 + 10500*2 = 35400 healing in four seconds. So 8850 hps for four seconds. It's downhill from here.

 

This is 4425 tps. That's roughly the opener for some dps classes (though some are much higher, and some are a bit lower).

 

So you can pull off a dps (even a great one for a class without initial burst) under extreme circumstances. Decent tanks will still out threat you, of course.

 

This is essentially irrelevant to the thread.

 

(For what it's worth, I'm in the "you might as well guard a healer in a pug flashpoint until a dps shows he/she can pull off you so the healer feels happy and for the 5% damage reduction from any adds you don't get to quickly enough" camp.)

Edited September 16, 2013 by cxten

[mikebevo]

I've pulled off a tank before, but the tank was undergeared and I was greatly overgeared for SM TfB, sure my healing contributed but think it had more to do with opening with flyby, shootfirst and backblast (and getting some lucky crits) along with hots on both tanks. That said I have never pulled from a tank or dps from just healing.

 

I hate guard, in most PUG HM 55 FP I have better gear then anyone else in the group, so either guard the dps or save it until you know who to guard. Even when dps has gold fever, I don't care.

[Xakthul]

I usually have the Tanks guard me..... cause my DPS usually somehow has more health than them (Which abso****inglutely blows my mind) and better armor. Underpowered Juggs and Sin tanks, FTW. Edited September 16, 2013 by Xakthul

[xJACKTHERIPPERx]

always going for the toughest opponents, instead of the weakest first

 

As a tank, I'd say this is the number one thing that bothers me the most. It's really annoying when I run into a pack of enemies and the marauder just plows right into one of the elites and gets tunnel vision on him while I'm getting attacked by 7 more enemies. They never seem to realize that if they were to kill those weaker ones first, there would only be 2 elites attacking me, and I could tank them all day.

[fire-breath]

I'm playing tank and sniper (cleaned HM content with both) and in fact current FP need's more guard on the dps than on the heal:

- dps is often pulling before tank

- dps doesn't use threat reduction

- dps is attacking different target than tank

- dps likes to give full burst to take agro and have a "big one"

 

When I play tank I hate it but when I play sniper I do the same...

 

And during this time heal has no risk to be focussed by the ennemies.

 

Amen to that ... I love to use valorious call as opener to get insta zen. Usually this will rip the aggro off the tanks. As a tank I hate it too when dps arent carefull (in flashpoints trashmobs).

Bossfights are a whole different story. I dont care if they overaggro me, I use taunting as part of the rotation. You have taunts, why not use them? Even if they rip a taunt will give you their aggro plus an extra bonus threat.

[Ocho-Quatro]

I don't want to start a flame-war here, but if this is true then they are lousy DPS and / or you have a huge gear advantage. Try that with any competent DPS, and they'll rip aggro off you after 6 seconds.

 

This isn't entirely true. There is a common misconception on how Taunt works with regard to the threat table.

 

Tanks who open with taunt, should stop tanking. (Let's just say that upfront)

 

A taunt does exactly TWO things: (in PvE)

1- It guarantees that the taunted mob will not target anyone else for 6 seconds.

2- It puts the person who taunted, at the top of the current threat table @ 110%*** of the person with top threat.

 

*** No. 2 is VERY important... because threat operates at two different threat levels to pull aggro. (see below, it's not always 110%)

 

Melee & Ranged

 

Characters in "melee" range need to pull 110% of the threat of the person at the top of the table to pull aggro. So for the sake of argument, let's assume that the tank currently has 100,000 Threat, and the marauder attacking the same target has generated 105,000 Threat. Even tho, the marauder is technically at the top of the threat table, he will not pull aggro until he hits 110,000 Threat, because he needs 110% threat to pull aggro.

 

Characters from "range" need to pull 130% of the threat of the person at the top of the table to pull aggro. So for the sake of argument, let's assume that the tank currently has 100,000 Threat, and the sniper attacking the same target has generated 115,000 Threat. Even tho, the sniper is technically at the top of the threat table, (by more than 110% even) he will not pull aggro until he hits 130,000 Threat, because he needs 130% threat to pull aggro.

 

So what does that mean?

 

Well, to answer that question you have to define what "Melee" and "Range" are. And it's been determined (by people smarter than me who put in more time looking at this) that:

 

Melee = 4m or LESS from the center of the target.

Range = MORE than 4m from the center of the target.

 

So, correlating back to the 2 things that Taunt does, and how important #2 is.... If you are tanking, and you are 3m from the boss and you TAUNT, you will get put at the top of the threat table + 10%.

 

BUT

 

If you step backwards to 4.1m and then TAUNT, you will get put at the top of the threat table +30%.

 

Basically at the end of the day, what that means is that if you back up a few steps before taunting (for threat, not mechanics) you SHOULD stay well ahead of the dps's threat because your taunts are generating 20% more threat then if you taunted from within "melee" range.

 

After cycling a few 130% taunts in a fight that doesn't have a threat-dump-mechanic or tank swapping? In theory, you SHOULD be so far ahead in the table that it would take incredibly stellar DPS to pull off you.

 

I'd have to dig around to find the proof for this, but it does work this way in-game.

[Synavix]

Pretty much spot on. One thing I'd like to emphasize more is that the range used for calculating threat is taken from the center of a mob, while the range used for calculating ability usage is taken from the outer ring of the mobs hitbox. It's entirely possible to be within "melee range" of the boss and still staying in the "ranged" range for threat, especially on a large boss like Thrasher. The range meter shown in game shows the range from the outer hitbox, or ability range. This is not always possible for tanks, particularly on small bosses, but melee DPS should almost always be standing near max range for their abilities so that they're always within the 130% zone.

[Seanbabbitt]

no it is not been getting all damage teams

[Ocho-Quatro]

no it is not been getting all damage teams

 

No what's not? You lack a bit of depth in your response, which would enable the reader to have any sort of idea what it is exactly that you are intending to convey.

 

If you are hinting that when you are doing Flashpoints, that you are "getting all damage teams" then chances are pretty good that you are queueing for the role-neutral Czerka flashpoints? Or are you talking about people queueing as tanks/healers that are actually DPS?

 

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