Dead Class?

[Vandersonmetal]

I recently returned to the game and started leveling my vanguard, and currently i am at lvl 27. While playing I realized that 80% of the troopers who i face it were commandos and i saw that everybody was talking that was not even a little viable leveling a vanguard. I've been reading some posts here in the forum and i was tempted to ask ... Vanguard is really a dead class?

[OlosBC]

The class has some issues, but definitely far from being "dead".

[JMagee]

A lot of people have been very vocal about Vanguard "utility" and "survivability" and "damage" since 2.0 hit the class.

 

I don't know what your intent is for the game. But as far as vanguard DPS goes in end game. You can clear all current HM Ops with no problem, and I still personally believe if your crits align and you play close to flawlessly, you'll put up competitive numbers...and probably could clear NiM content without using one of the popular hybrid specs.

 

But the two DPS trees could use a little buffing, especially higher up on the trees, to promote talenting capstone abilities.

 

PvP wise I can't comment too much upon. Seems like survivability is an issue, which is getting some patchwork fixes in 2.4.

[mfourcustom]

"The class is far from dead".... lol Some people and there optimistic out looks :rolleyes: anyway as the guy said above me you can do ok in PVE just make sure you have a good group around you.. you wont be carrying anyone anymore as a vanguard.

 

In pvp the class even as tactics is a joke.

 

Been playing both specs since launch played the class since launch the way things stand in the game right now if your not a sniper, jug, mara, op healer, your pretty much **** out of luck.

 

Bottom line.

 

you know what ONE quick edit here. Is the class really dead???

 

No is it close.... meh ya kinda I mean a lot of the FOTM vanguards left a while ago when 2.0 hit many launch/main vanguard players left and if 2.4 goes how i think it will and we really blow in arena's which I think we probably will even with tactics buff the class will pretty much be dead.

 

Welcome back to swtor were devs play favorites with classes and have no idea how to balance anything outside of cartel coins and the cartel market.

Edited September 6, 2013 by mfourcustom

[KeyboardNinja]

you wont be carrying anyone anymore as a vanguard.

 

Are you actually complaining that vanguard *isn't* OP?

 

In PvE (post-2.0):

 

• Shield Tech - Smoothest damage profile on all bosses. Best mean mitigation on a large number of Nightmare-mode bosses. Weakest cooldowns. Good mobility and damage output.
  
• Tactics - Middle-of-the-pack sustained damage numbers (not beating the top-tier gunslingers, but close enough to be more than viable). Excellent AoE in rotation. Very good long-cooldown burst. No gap closer. Excellent 10m options (for a melee), and moderate 30m options.
  
• Assault - Middling-to-poor sustained damage numbers. Decent burst. Fantastic mobility. Better 10m and 30m options. Still no gap closer.
  

 

That almost seems…balanced?

[mfourcustom]

Are you actually complaining that vanguard *isn't* OP?

 

In PvE (post-2.0):

 

• Shield Tech - Smoothest damage profile on all bosses. Best mean mitigation on a large number of Nightmare-mode bosses. Weakest cooldowns. Good mobility and damage output.
  
• Tactics - Middle-of-the-pack sustained damage numbers (not beating the top-tier gunslingers, but close enough to be more than viable). Excellent AoE in rotation. Very good long-cooldown burst. No gap closer. Excellent 10m options (for a melee), and moderate 30m options.
  
• Assault - Middling-to-poor sustained damage numbers. Decent burst. Fantastic mobility. Better 10m and 30m options. Still no gap closer.
  

 

That almost seems…balanced?

 

Nope not complaining just figured i would throw that in there. When anyone asks about PVE vanguard dps I always remember way back when back when Hard mode TFB was the highest content a group could clear and i recall being able to carry some under geared guild mates in that ops.

 

Thats all.

 

As far as your "almost seems balanced" comment.

 

LoL Gotta love baddies like you

 

The class is far from balanced its a joke whats more of a joke is people like you who think the class is good or almost good.

 

Now this is the part were you tell me i'm bad cause i'm mad that my class got nerfed in 2.0 and i need to learn to play.

 

baddies and there optimistic out looks like you will keep this ****** game alive after eso and wildstar launch and take whats left of the good/skilled player base away from the game.

Edited September 6, 2013 by mfourcustom

[KeyboardNinja]

Nope not complaining just figured i would throw that in there. When anyone asks about PVE vanguard dps I always remember way back when back when Hard mode TFB was the highest content a group could clear and i recall being able to carry some under geared guild mates in that ops.

 

Why on earth would that be considered balanced? Would you consider it fair if a sentinel could do that with their undergeared guildmates? What about a shadow? A scoundrel? What you're saying is literally that you believe vanguard DPS should be balanced above the mean at even gear and skill levels. That's not balance anymore.

 

The class is far from balanced its a joke whats more of a joke is people like you who think the class is good or almost good.

 

I'm glad you took the time to refute my points…

 

Now this is the part were you tell me i'm bad cause i'm mad that my class got nerfed in 2.0 and i need to learn to play.

 

I don't think you're bad. I just think you're pessimistically stuck in the past. Commando Healers got nerfed hardcore in 1.2, way back in the day. When that happened, nearly all of the people who had previously been playing commando healers simply left the game. Even good players! The class as a whole was highly frowned upon for a long time. Even today, it bears the scorn of the community. The thing is that when we look back at the healing commandos could do pre-1.2 and the way that the healers were balanced (or lack thereof), the nerfs were both required and extremely well-measured.

 

I'm not being optimistic about vanguards. I'm looking at the facts. The fact is that vanguards on the PTS have parsed competitively with other DPS classes in similar gear when adjusting for raid buffs (armor debuff and execute). Vanguard tanks are indisputably as powerful as I asserted in my earlier post (and I can give you hard math which backs that up). Do I think that things are perfect? No. Assault/Pyro needs more burst to be a serious threat in PvP, and the lack of gap closer in both DPS specs is really painful. But things are, overall, in a very good place post-2.4.

 

Will you be able to single-handedly lift undergeared or under-skilled raid members through content over their heads? No. Should any class be able to do that? Absolutely not.

Edited September 6, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[Brunner_Venda]

Just a quick post from the mirror side (BH): Tactics spec and pulse generator are going to be amazing in 2.4.

 

If I had to level a new PT/VG I would spec tactics and level for the next the three or four weeks until the 2.4 changes hit. We're getting a 90% slow/30% surge on pulse generator, higher fire pulse burst (7K), and a 6% crit boost to Stock Strike (+21% with the PVP suit bonus).

 

We will parse within 5% of a smash sentinel, and if we play it right we will absolutely destroy them in PVP. (Pulse generator should do about 12K, and we still take 1/3 less damage from smash with shock absorbers)

 

I know a lot of people expected a lot more for pyro/assault. So did I, I dont blame you, i was pretty angry about it. But to be honest the commando pyro/assault tree is still crap too. So both commando and VG have two decent trees (the left two), so I think we are just about in the same boat.

 

TL;DR. Switch your VG to tactics and start practicing with the three stack pulse generator and pulse cannon. It's going to be good.

[LanceCorporalDan]

simply put...

 

Me on my VG against, a mediocre player on their sniper... They will put up probably even numbers.

 

Me on my sniper and that same player on their VG.. Fish in a barrel.

[Brunner_Venda]

simply put...

 

Me on my VG against, a mediocre player on their sniper... They will put up probably even numbers.

 

Me on my sniper and that same player on their VG.. Fish in a barrel.

 

Snipers are just plain ridiculous.

 

Compared to a smash spec though, I think we'll be competitive.

 

At least we'll be able to kill them anyways.

[ToMyMa]

Pff, far from dead, at least on ToFN. Having vanguard overload right now, 3+ vanguards in each warzone, though far from all are good...

[LanceCorporalDan]

Pff, far from dead, at least on ToFN. Having vanguard overload right now, 3+ vanguards in each warzone, though far from all are good...

 

I've rolled with my Vanguard as my main ever since I went over to Jung Ma a year ago. It's easy to see most of these VG's are just ones coming back to it or rolling after seeing PTS changes. However they won't be a match for those of us who are dedicated to the class.

[ToMyMa]

I've rolled with my Vanguard as my main ever since I went over to Jung Ma a year ago. It's easy to see most of these VG's are just ones coming back to it or rolling after seeing PTS changes. However they won't be a match for those of us who are dedicated to the class.

 

Yeah... I befriended one of the better vannies of ToFN, and sometimes he rivals me in DPS/Defending etc (I'm a commando).

[mfourcustom]

Why on earth would that be considered balanced? Would you consider it fair if a sentinel could do that with their undergeared guildmates? What about a shadow? A scoundrel? What you're saying is literally that you believe vanguard DPS should be balanced above the mean at even gear and skill levels. That's not balance anymore.

 

 

 

I'm glad you took the time to refute my points…

 

 

 

I don't think you're bad. I just think you're pessimistically stuck in the past. Commando Healers got nerfed hardcore in 1.2, way back in the day. When that happened, nearly all of the people who had previously been playing commando healers simply left the game. Even good players! The class as a whole was highly frowned upon for a long time. Even today, it bears the scorn of the community. The thing is that when we look back at the healing commandos could do pre-1.2 and the way that the healers were balanced (or lack thereof), the nerfs were both required and extremely well-measured.

 

I'm not being optimistic about vanguards. I'm looking at the facts. The fact is that vanguards on the PTS have parsed competitively with other DPS classes in similar gear when adjusting for raid buffs (armor debuff and execute). Vanguard tanks are indisputably as powerful as I asserted in my earlier post (and I can give you hard math which backs that up). Do I think that things are perfect? No. Assault/Pyro needs more burst to be a serious threat in PvP, and the lack of gap closer in both DPS specs is really painful. But things are, overall, in a very good place post-2.4.

 

Will you be able to single-handedly lift undergeared or under-skilled raid members through content over their heads? No. Should any class be able to do that? Absolutely not.

 

^This you are more than right I am stuck in the past.

 

Not the 1.2 or 1.4 past when vanguard was ungodly OP I'm stuck in 1.8 and 1.9 when the class was balanced as a true glass cannon good at burst and bad at everything else. I'm stuck in the past back when more than 4 classes were viable but 2.0 changed that.

 

Played the game and the class since launch still my main.

 

Oh well its stupid to fight or snap at people about it time to give up the goose and wait for wildstar.

 

GG you win.

[TheNegotiator]

It's only dead if you don't like the class. I don't PvP much anymore, but my dps numbers in PvE seem to be fine. I'm rolling through the Czerka flashpoints no problem as a tactics spec. I'd rather play assault, but I tried both and I think tactics has the edge. I think we have the best area attack in the game in mortar volley.

[kennethdale]

^This you are more than right I am stuck in the past.

 

Not the 1.2 or 1.4 past when vanguard was ungodly OP I'm stuck in 1.8 and 1.9 when the class was balanced as a true glass cannon good at burst and bad at everything else. I'm stuck in the past back when more than 4 classes were viable but 2.0 changed that.

 

Played the game and the class since launch still my main.

 

Oh well its stupid to fight or snap at people about it time to give up the goose and wait for wildstar.

 

GG you win.

 

The first NiM Dread Guard kill included a Shadow DPS, pre-DG nerf. KBN himself tanks NiM as a Shadow. That first kill also included Merc DPS. Many NiM groups bring PTs. Many NiM guilds bring Jugg DPS. I'd agree that KBN "wins" (if indeed this were a competition) but not because you give up. Because he's right that you want PTs to be OP, not to be balanced. You said yourself

 

When anyone asks about PVE vanguard dps I always remember way back when back when Hard mode TFB was the highest content a group could clear and i recall being able to carry some under geared guild mates in that ops.

 

Mate, that's 1.4 not 1.8 or 1.9. You specifically said you wanted that back. That's not balance, that's selfishly wanting to be the best.

[Luckeyduckey]

We're not gods anymore. We're good, but not gods. I can pull top damage -every- match, win almost -every- 1v1 (Fecking Deception Sins ), and can take down healers pretty well (Not as good as my marauder, but MUCH better than my sniper). Overall, my marauder's damage output is vastly greater, but I haven't gotten Immortal with him yet. I pull consistent Invincible with my Pyrotech, and sometimes Immortal. Unbeatable every match. The class actually has more survivability than people credit for it, and come 2.4, Pyro's -will- be better. Smash is still OP though.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

If you like how the class plays (ie, the up close melee to 10 meter range approach), then you'll be fine. That's the main thing, is if you enjoy playing the class. Most of the heartache you see on the boards (at least between classes) is the typical grass is greener over there/e-peen contests you see on a lot of MMO boards. The tweaks coming with 2.4 will help address some of the issues that currently exist for Vanguards, but even without them, players have been doing okay with them.

[ekimmak]

As far as I can tell, all classes are viable, but some are much easier to reach the necessary skill to be viable than other.

 

Or, to put it as something I recall from my English class, "All animals are equal. But some are more equal than others."

[coolkidwhoscrazy]

I do not feel that it is a dead class. If it was dead, there would be more posts about how there are no vanguards and I'm sure Bioware would be looking to find a way to fix the problem. It's just less common because it doesn't have a popular playing style. Not a lot of people like doing what the vanguard is responsible for in combat, or there is a better way to do it.

[Brunner_Venda]

As far as I can tell, all classes are viable, but some are much easier to reach the necessary skill to be viable than other.

 

Or, to put it as something I recall from my English class, "All animals are equal. But some are more equal than others."

 

Animal Farm! Smashers can be Napoleon, and Snipers can be Squealer!

[ekimmak]

Animal Farm! Smashers can be Napoleon, and Snipers can be Squealer!

 

And considering some of the attitudes you can get, I think it's a very viable comparison.

[LanceCorporalDan]

Animal Farm! Smashers can be Napoleon, and Snipers can be Squealer!

 

Perfect! lol

[DarthOvertone]

My PT hasn't died for 3 straight WZs.

[Xakthul]

Snipers? Stun them or knock them and they are screwed. just use Explosive Round a few times

 

The Smuggler puts up a much better cover shield and tankieness whichever class they are. However, a good Sniper can kill your whole WZ group in a few seconds. They have much better cooldowns than all the other DPS classes.