Confusing double-talk from the Cantina tour

[Ratajack]

Pay close attention to the words I bolded/underlined.

 

Again, that in NO WAY mentions PVE'ers. You are reading into that comment what you WANT to see, not what was said.

 

 

That comment refers to hoping that the devs do not attempt to balance classes based SOLELY on PVP concerns. It says NOTHING about PVE'ers.

[TUXs]

That comment refers to hoping that the devs do not attempt to balance classes based SOLELY on PVP concerns. It says NOTHING about PVE'ers.

Some people fear the sky may fall down...doesn't mean it's a rational fear. Stop being afraid of something they've never once done.

[Ratajack]

Yeah, we've heard this drivel before...

 

Please name ONE rational request that a "PvP" player is asking for, for their class, that would negatively impact the "PvE" aspect of that class. I doubt you can...know why? Because both PvP and PvE have the same complaints from what I've seen - lack of DPS, resource management issues, survivability, cast times.

 

Hell, I'd actually argue that the majority of the "balance" tweaking that has gone on in this game is because of PvE, not PvP.

- Med packs being limited to one use PER fight = PvE

- Commando interrupt = PvE

- Combat rez timer = PvE

- In combat rez for Commando = PvE

 

I would think that each and every one of those "PVE" tweaks you mentioned would have MUCH MORE impact in PVP than in PVE.

 

Maybe you missed the two times I said I was ALL IN FAVOR of PVP balance. I just think that there should be a PVP balance and a PVE balance. The two should be separated. If you enter a warzone or arena, you should have the PVP balanced skills and in the open world, the PVE balanced skills should be in effect. I'm not sure how to balance world PVP, though.

 

In the broader sense, though, my concerns for this game stem from problems experienced in other games when the devs try to balance classes based solely on PVP concerns, especially those stemming from arenas.

[Ratajack]

Some people fear the sky may fall down...doesn't mean it's a rational fear. Stop being afraid of something they've never once done.

 

The devs of THIS game may not have done it YET, true. I have seen too many other games where classes are affected in PVE due to "balance" concerns stemming from PVP, specifically arenas.

[TUXs]

I would think that each and every one of those "PVE" tweaks you mentioned would have MUCH MORE impact in PVP than in PVE.

 

Maybe you missed the two times I said I was ALL IN FAVOR of PVP balance. I just think that there should be a PVP balance and a PVE balance. The two should be separated. If you enter a warzone or arena, you should have the PVP balanced skills and in the open world, the PVE balanced skills should be in effect. I'm not sure how to balance world PVP, though.

 

In the broader sense, though, my concerns for this game stem from problems experienced in other games when the devs try to balance classes based solely on PVP concerns, especially those stemming from arenas.

 

You'd be incorrect.

 

This isn't rocket surgery Rat, PvE isn't some special snowflake and doesn't need it's own set of "balance rules". Expertise is what allows them to fine tune things for PvP without messing up PvE.

[ArchangelLBC]

Exactly.

 

There are PvP balance issues, and other PvP considerations that need attention and over time will receive attention I'm sure (though not always the way any given player wants/prefers).

 

Make a good sound case, and gain support around the case. NOT surround yourself with "we" and attempt to speak for anyone but yourself. If what you speak for yourself has merit.. it gains support... lots of merit.. lots of support. Pretending to speak for the community and declare a majority is snake-oil in gaming forums.

 

PvP players generally are very passionate and demanding. They are also very fractional and fight among themselves. They use the Devs as a target to unite against and that is always counter-productive IMO.

 

 

Making a good case and garnering support doesn't matter. People have done that to no effect whatsoever. People have done it and gotten a paltry "we're totally looking into that" which results in 8 solid weeks of no change whatsoever and not a further peep.

 

The fact is that the dev team hasn't engaged with any portion of the PVP community at all. Their actions belie whatever they might want to say about engaging, which, whatever BS semantics you want to engage in over who the OP is speaking for, the fact is the devs SAY they want to engage, and their ACTIONS show that in reality they don't give a damn about anything anyone has to say, no matter how reasonable and thought out it is, and regardless of how much support it has.

 

Indeed, when it comes to class balance, not one member of the dev team is meaningfully engaging anyone, with the exception of perhaps Snipers and Sentinels. The class rep system is a joke because it takes two people to have a dialogue and the devs aren't really interested in talking. They DON'T want to hear about it when they've screwed the pooch, and any evidence they have is ignored for months and months and months, no matter how much popular support the topic has.

 

It's not about not liking the answers, so much as there are never any answers or are effective non-answers "looking into it". With no effective followup which indicates the "looking into it" was never anything more than an attempt to placate disgruntled players instead of an actual effort to address class balance concerns.

 

Whatever semantics you want to attack the OP over, the facts are that they have consistently failed to meaningfully engage any part of the PVE or PVP community when it comes to class balance, leaving problems which should be minor fixes festering for months with nary a word worth talking about, while simultaneously spouting the kind of tripe cited by the OP about how they are committed to feedback from players, and all about creating a dialogue.

 

When they say one thing and do another, doublespeak is about the nicest term I can think of.

Edited September 3, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[Ratajack]

You'd be incorrect.

 

This isn't rocket surgery Rat, PvE isn't some special snowflake and doesn't need it's own set of "balance rules". Expertise is what allows them to fine tune things for PvP without messing up PvE.

 

Kind of like resilience in WOW was supposed to be what was used to balance classes for PVP?

 

Guess what. That didn't work.

 

Sure they can use "expertise", "resilience" or whatever name you want to give a PVP only stat to adjust damage done, damage taken, healing done and healing taken. You cannot use that stat to change how a given skill WORKS.

 

Hypothetical situation:

 

Stealth becomes a very sought after, even necessary, skill for arenas. Any team running any class other than a combination of OPS and assassins (scoundrels and shadows) gets destroyed. The top teams are all comprised of operatives and assassins (scoundrels and shadows).

 

You cannot use "expertise" to address this issue. Do the devs remove stealth from PVP or do they remove stealth from the classes?

 

Is that an unlikely scenario? Yes, but the principle remains. I saw too many classes in WOW and other games have vital PVE skills changed or taken away due to PVP concerns stemming from arenas.

[Ratajack]

You'd be incorrect.

 

This isn't rocket surgery Rat, PvE isn't some special snowflake and doesn't need it's own set of "balance rules". Expertise is what allows them to fine tune things for PvP without messing up PvE.

 

As this game is primarily, first and foremost, a PVE game, it would be the PVP that needs its own special set of "balance rules".

[Andryah]

Some people fear the sky may fall down...doesn't mean it's a rational fear. Stop being afraid of something they've never once done.

 

Sage advice for all.. including the PvPers.

[Andryah]

As this game is primarily, first and foremost, a PVE game, it would be the PVP that needs its own special set of "balance rules".

 

I'm thinking that arenas.. and keeping in mind they said they would not repeat Blizzards blunders... may very well require dual balance rules. They could juggle PvP balance between arenas and the rest of play.. but I don't know how they would properly juggle that with PvE as well. Never seen any company do it well to be honest.

 

Could be this is what they will evolve to.. and could explain why no balance until after arenas are live. /shrug... don't know.. just speculating

Edited September 3, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

The fact is that the dev team hasn't engaged with any portion of the PVP community at all. Their actions belie whatever they might want to say about engaging, which, whatever BS semantics you want to engage in over who the OP is speaking for, the fact is the devs SAY they want to engage, and their ACTIONS show that in reality they don't give a damn about anything anyone has to say, no matter how reasonable and thought out it is, and regardless of how much support it has.

 

Your opinion.. presented as absolute fact. So why are you here.. you just presented a lost cause position.

 

The absolute extreme proclamation stance of your first sentence is easily discounted by objective view of things the Devs have done. Which in turn discredits the rest of your post as clever hate on the devs... nothing more, nothing less.

 

The OP already admitted in an earlier reply to me that the "Confusing Double-Talk" title was misrepresentation on his part. He is not actually confused by it, and it's not double talk to him.. he simply does not like what they have to say. A more honest title would have been: I disagree with Developer Comments on PvP from the Cantina Tour - And Here Is Why

Edited September 3, 2013 by Andryah

[Ratajack]

I'm thinking that arenas.. and keeping in mind they said they would not repeat Blizzards blunders... may very well require dual balance rules. They could juggle PvP balance between arenas and the rest of play.. but I don't know how they would properly juggle that with PvE as well. Never seen any company do it well to be honest.

 

Could be this is what they will evolve to.. and could explain why no balance until after arenas are live. /shrug... don't know.. just speculating

 

That is all that I would ask. It should be possible to implement a separate set of balance rules for arenas that would not impact PVE.

 

I'm not asking that they don't balance PVP, only that they do not do so at the cost of impacting PVE.

[mmjarec]

Only bads complain about pvp balance. Everyone is a god at pvp, they only lost because the other class was OP. I just get more satisfaction when pwning the supposed OP classes with my underpowered ones.

 

Are you serious if everything is fine why are sins 500 dps lower on parses

[ZionHalcyon]

anyone have a link to the transcript of the seattle Q&A?

[ThePedigree]

The OP already admitted in an earlier reply to me that the "Confusing Double-Talk" title was misrepresentation on his part. He is not actually confused by it, and it's not double talk to him.. he simply does not like what they have to say. A more honest title would have been: I disagree with Developer Comments on PvP from the Cantina Tour - And Here Is Why

I did no such thing. I am in fact confused by the double-talk, because that is exactly what it is. What I admitted was I do not like the answers that have been presented thus far, as do many other people. And since you glossed over the point, the reason why I named the title confusing double-talk, and have pointed out to you twice now, is that they Damion claimed the pvp team wanted to be more transparent and would listen when told that they had ****ed something up. I'll post that quote for you again, for the third time:

"Our attitude on PvP is generally to be more transparent. Because, as a general rule, if we expose our philosophy, you guys will tell us if we’ve f*cked up. Right? It’s the whole open-source philosophy. The way to find out if your game has problems is to give it oxygen. So our PvP team is really open and really forthcoming."

And they have been told that, repeatedly, about all 3 of these issues, over the last month.Hence the the confusion. If you say you want to be told when you've made a mistake, and yet refuse to listen to, acknowledge, or address it when you are told so...that is a very confusing statement to make indeed.

 

You are entitled to your opinion on these issues, but don't twist mine to suit what you're trying to preach, Andyrah.

[Avicii]

Reading through the transcripts of the Seattle Cantina tour has me scratching my head. Schubert says alot of things that don't really seem to be jiving with what is actually going on right now.

 

 

Well, not exactly. There are several outstanding issues right now that have come to light since the news of what 2.4 will and won't have, and many of those issues have be ignored or swept under the rug. Yeah yeah, vocal minority on the forums right? Well then why would you make this statement:

 

 

 

Well, there are lot of people that are telling you that you're messing up. The hot issues right now that people have been addressing on this forum:

 

1. No class balance before arena launch. There seems to be a majority here that feel that launching arenas without touching the class balance and doing this "wait and see" approach is a giant mistake. There are already classes that are both under and over performing in the current pvp game. There were already classes that felt that they were either pigeon-holed into a particular spec to compete in high end pvp, or didn't even feel welcome as that class. This is unlikely to change, and the consensus seems to be that people would rather adjustments be made to try and bring everyone in line before the arena season launch to have as fair a chance to be competitive from day one. Yeah, we know it won't be perfect. But that would a far cry better than what we are expecting now. Please rethink this decision.

 

2. Removal of Rated Warzones. Alot of people are upset this feature is being removed because "Not enough people played it." Lots of people spent loads of money to move to new servers to try and break into this gameplay, or just to have more competition. Now you've pulled the rug out from under them. Rather than give people the choice to play Rated Objective play or Rated Deathmatch play, you've made that decision for them. Many people have posted here that they'd rather go through the motions of organzing it themselves, or wait in queue than to not be able to play at all.

 

3. No separate queue for objective-based and deathmatch warzones. Again, you're making the decision for them as to what PVP content you'll have to play. If you're concerned about it affecting queue times, how will this be different than the impact people quitting out of them will have? Not everyone who likes to pvp likes Arena, just as not everyone who likes to pvp like objective-based play. Let people queue for the content they want to do, not jump through all these hurdles. Isn't the goal to make things easier and more enjoyable for your customers?

 

 

 

We have. We have been for some time. Stop being so stubborn about metrics and wagging your finger and saying you know better. It hasn't served you well over the first year of the game, and it hasn't this second either.

 

More or less I agree with you and I have been fairly vocal about it. For arenas to be successful without cross server queues in a manner that RWZs were not, classes and players of those class must feel like they are included and have a shot. Currently the meta is almost exactly the same teams. No tank is as good as a Jug in PvP for their utility and ability to protect, Rage Maras have excellent burst and the best DCDs in the game and Op healers we all know about.

 

What you will see is looking for those classes and specs for arenas. Most high end teams will run double rage maras or 1 DPS besides a Mara.

 

For example look at Dramas 106-5 record and what they did running the aforementioned comp. Now of course niche comps like Dongcleave or comps the top 10% can play will be there as out liers but with the current meta the framework is already set.

 

I think we all want the same thing which is for swtor to make strides forward and to be successful however if they continue forward on this path classes will be excluded and players will be frustrated and stop playing the game waiting so long to make changes to the meta reenforced the exclusion of particular classes. Maybe it's a preception problem on our part but its there and the only way to change that is through balance changes whether a its nerfs or buffs.

 

I realize PvE players don't want this to fall into the trap WoW did with balance but done changes can be made that don't directly screw over PvE DPS and some can actually help certain classes.

 

All that said I am with you OP and firmly believe the PvP meta needs to be shaken up a little without it players will not be inclined to queue if they perceive that they are at a strong class disadvantage and arenas needs people queuing to be successful. In addition a faction of the player base is miffed that RWZs are being removed along with their guild mates and friends. If they stop playing so do others and do to their negative preception they won't return in Feb when 2.6 comes out with finally some balance changes.

 

We are all connected together and it's never good when anyone leaves the game this isn't WoW we need all the subs and CC spenders to keep the game going as all of us want as we love the IP and want to continue playing this game.

[Darth-Malice]

They are developers. This means they are like politicians. They will say and do whatever it takes to get your support and money and then once they have it ignore you. NO dev teams have free reign anymore they are all owned and slaves to corporate masters like EA. Get used to it they are all liars and double talkers.

[mmjarec]

They are developers. This means they are like politicians. They will say and do whatever it takes to get your support and money and then once they have it ignore you. NO dev teams have free reign anymore they are all owned and slaves to corporate masters like EA. Get used to it they are all liars and double talkers.

They obviously dont play their own game cause they dont make sense what they say is the opposite of how it actually is in game