Official Juggernaut Questions

[maverickmatt]

 

This has all been pleasant fiction. I personally have no problems with the juggernaut trees themselves. I chose to remind you all that within the realm of changes made to our class, the correlations between dps potential and survivability must not be forgotten....

 

I refer you to the Marauder, the Operative, and the Sniper.

 

It is in those 3 classes that the relationship is broken.

 

 

Therefore your assertion that there is a correlation between DPS (and HPS) potential and survivability is mute, because obviously the devs do not share the same sentiment.

 

We just wanted to know if we could be on par with those guys, because they have made it clear they have no intentions of reestablishing said correlation within those 3.

[UndyingHadyn]

I refer you to the Marauder, the Operative, and the Sniper.

 

It is in those 3 classes that the relationship is broken.

 

 

Therefore your assertion that there is a correlation between DPS (and HPS) potential and survivability is mute, because obviously the devs do not share the same sentiment.

 

We just wanted to know if we could be on par with those guys, because they have made it clear they have no intentions of reestablishing said correlation within those 3.

 

Easy now. I was speaking about the dynamics of the juggernaut class specifically. I was applying said ratios(which are obvious), to explain why certain trees behave the way they do. Currently the Immortal, Vengeance, and Rage trees, all sport their own tools and playstyles. The beauty from these trees, is the player's interpretation and their knowledge of the specific roles within them. With understanding, comes mastery. With mastery, comes self-expression.

 

I would enjoy more specific analysis for a continued discussion about the three classes you've provided for "referral".

You've provided a healer class, and two pure damage classes. If you are suggesting that their survivability and damage potential correlations are not acceptable, then place these concerns in a new thread. I do not need to dissect the Operative class for example, trying to discern what that class' damage output vs. their survivability capabilities are, simply to provide you with the obvious truths of the juggernaut class. For the record, I did not use as you wrote, "(HPS)" values in any of my posts. Healing classes are a whole different beast. Once again.. different topic of discussion for the damage classes as well.

 

I understand the point you are trying to make, from a more secular point of view...but these concerns must be the topic of a new discussion, encompassing all classes within game. Now If you are suggesting for example, that Vengeance needs an increase in damage potential to be enabled to compete with these three other class examples, well that may appear silly. From what perspective are these concerns originating from?

 

From a PVP perspective, the correlations that we both refer to, are paradoxical, for the largest contributing factor in that equation is player skill. How can a person state that Vengeance spec damage potential, needs to be brought up to a marauder's level, or a sniper's? Their class abilities and playstyles , are very different by comparison.

Edited September 8, 2013 by UndyingHadyn

[kennethdale]

hehe. Yes. It. Is.

 

In what way? You lambaste my opinion and simply say "Wrong" without offering any evidence. How is Rage "thee ultimate dps spec that our class has"? In its extremely limited and lackluster single-target DPS? In the fact that it is immensely scripted and boring? Because it has one ability that hits like a truck?

 

What isn't boring about Enrage>Charge>Sundering>Smash>Crush>Force Scream>Obliterate>Sundering>Vicious Slash>Vicious Slash>Smash? There is no variability. You simply follow the script and do the dps. That is the definition of boring ("not interesting; tedious"). And you question my sanity?

 

You are disregarding many variables...namely player skill...

 

For what? The fact that Rage is lower than Vengeance for single target when there is a good number of Rampage procs? First off, Rage requires no skill. It requires the ability to continually press the same buttons in the same order. Vengeance, when there are bad procs, loses a lot of DPS. I've heard as much as 300 DPS over a given fight. There is no "player skill" involved. It is math. Again, bring in evidence next time you claim I am wrong.

 

...Never ASSume anything.

 

No, never ASSume things without good reason. Assuming that a SHARED DPS tree that [b}SHARES[/b] 18 of 21 talents (the non-shared being Opressor/Interceptor, Through Passion/Undying, and Force Resistance/Force Vigor which all deal with Jugg/Mara specific abilities...) is viewed similarly is an [b}EXTREMELY[/b] safe assumption.

 

You display inexperienced, unfair and extremely short-sighted opinions. I have stated numerous times in the many threads that I have constructed, about how the changes affect both pvp and pve. Do not presume my position on pve gameplay. You dislike what I say, because you know I'm right.

 

First, I dislike what you say because you don't back anything up with evidence, you have a completely PvP-bent, and you are utterly (and completely without reason) arrogant. Whether or not in the past you've said jacksht about PvE is irrelevant to the ambivalence you displayed in the post I quoted:

 

Pve'ers want solid reliable dps so they can watch their jugs' animations and top the charts. When you crossover to pvp, you'll see a huge imbalance. As much as I love the class(I have 3 jugs), I honestly can't support a decision that simply increases our Vengeance dps

 

Again, arrogance, ambivalence, and no evidence. That's what I dislike. Also, "inexperienced"? Do you know what that means? Or "short-sighted"? You made one thread about how no one else was taking up the Juggernaut gauntlet, and put your opinions on the top and ignored most of the PvE opinions (You actually said "Hmm, class pve balance...a much desired topic in this pvp suggestion thread" which is odd for a thread called "Juggernaut Suggestions for our Representative"...). That's not all that fair, yourself. I posted proposed questions, noted that I didn't PvP and asked for input and your "input" was to laugh and say that I clearly don't PvP. Which I had already stated and followed by asking for input. That's not all that helpful, is it?

 

hehe. You are completely oblivious to the fundamentals of our class. You want your cake and you want to eat it too. Your inability to accept the roles of your class, or how to play your class effectively isn't my problem.

 

First, my Marauder is my main. My Jugg is my primary alt. Not sure how you missed that even though I've said it half-a-hundred times. As to my "inability to accept the roles of my class" what does that mean? Wanting EVEN DPS, without saying anything for its magnitude or even simple clarification of the devs stance between Rage and Vengeance as which is intended to be the single-target DPS spec is wanting to have my cake and it too? That's odd when its the point of the questions. Based on your usage of words and colloquialisms I am honestly starting to believe you are an alien troll just sent down with a basic phrase book that's had all of its translations torn out. Go ahead and look at my posting history. I've stated "numerous" times that I personally believe the DPS potential of classes that can fulfill more than one role should be slightly lower than the DPS potential of a "pure" DPS class. I have no issue accepting lower numbers, what I have trouble accepting is when my friends can't consistently put up the same level of numbers because they weren't getting Rampage procs (Or when he has to say on vent that he got 3 in a row like he won the lottery).

 

No. You just want an excuse for YOUR raid to bring YOU.

 

No. MY raid brings me for my Marauders DPS. I WORRY about my friends who play Vengeance but constantly feel like dead weight and in spite of loving the class are being forced to consider bringing a different character. That is my WORRY. It has nothing to do with me.

 

You should consider what I say and think outside of your "moar dps" box. The correlations between damage potential and survivability are extremely important.

 

Actually, no. I shouldn't. I don't care about PvP on my Jugg. I could give two sh*ts about survivability of Rage. You base all of this on your desire to play one spec without regard for balance and say it comes back to survivability, which has zero effect on PvE. Does a raid care that a Jugg DPS takes less damage? Not unless "less damage" is the difference between Alive or Dead, which its not. Outside of PvP, they are completely irrelevant. Which again comes back to your PvP-bent. As for "moar dps", I've said it before in this post but I'll say it again: I want more EVEN DPS. I don't want to have to rely on Rampage to make or break my DPS.

 

...not once have we asked for more survivability in the immortal or vengeance trees. Please read before you continue to embarrass yourself.

 

How odd that you should say something like that when what I said was: "whether it is for Vengeance or Immortal." The point of that paragraph was to say that asking for more survivability is not something that will go down well, REGARDLESS OF WHICH SPEC IS BEING DISCUSSED. Maybe you should take your own advice?

 

Were these discussions and suggestions aimed at a desired synergy or balance within trees? Immortal works great. Vengeance has great survivability, coupled with great damage potential. Rage is the best dps spec we have...period. Or in your case, were all of these discussions leading to just more Vengeance dps?

 

All I am stating is, that You cannot keep increasing Vengeance dps and let it retain it's defensive abilities. It's silly.

 

You continually fail to realize this obvious truth. I could see some sort of consumable proc, or specific burst option being woven in, but it could not exist above and beyond the dps potential we already possess. If you were to increase Vengeance dps potential, you would have to increase the survivability of Rage. Do not fret, for this will be highly unlikely to happen anyways.

 

So. Much. Wrongness. Its laughable.

 

EDIT

 

Sorry, I just had to take a quick break to digest all that was wrong with that last bit.

 

First, as I have said many times in this post and all others, I don't want more Vengeance DPS, I want more even Vengeance DPS. That's not asking for much. Your wonderful suggestion of a damage boost proc is quite hilarious in particular because I suggested that a ways back (following your own advice, FTW). And let me clarify something: When I say that I don't care about survivability, what I mean EXACTLY and SPECIFICALLY is that as long as Vengeance doesn't die from taking incidental AoE damage (for example Dash'roode's KB), I could care less about its survivability.

 

Second, "you cannot keep increasing"? So, based on that statement you seem to believe that I, personally (or possibly generally) have had a direct, positive effect on the DPS of Vengeance and subsequently cannot expect to have more of an effect? Was there a patch I'm not aware of wherein Vengeance was boosted? I'll admit I haven't DPS'd on my Jugg since the last patch but I didn't see Vengeance getting an "I WIN" button. Odd, I'll go back and re-read that.

 

In the end, what you fail to realize is that people other than yourself write things in here too and they are sometimes worth reading.

Edited September 8, 2013 by kennethdale

[maverickmatt]

Easy now. I was speaking about the dynamics of the juggernaut class specifically. I was applying said ratios(which are obvious), to explain why certain trees behave the way they do. Currently the Immortal, Vengeance, and Rage trees, all sport their own tools and playstyles. The beauty from these trees, is the player's interpretation and their knowledge of the specific roles within them. With understanding, comes mastery. With mastery, comes self-expression.

 

I would enjoy more specific analysis for a continued discussion about the three classes you've provided for "referral".

You've provided a healer class, and two pure damage classes. If you are suggesting that their survivability and damage potential correlations are not acceptable, then place these concerns in a new thread. I do not need to dissect the Operative class for example, trying to discern what that class' damage output vs. their survivability capabilities are, simply to provide you with the obvious truths of the juggernaut class. For the record, I did not use as you wrote, "(HPS)" values in any of my posts. Healing classes are a whole different beast. Once again.. different topic of discussion for the damage classes as well.

 

I understand the point you are trying to make, from a more secular point of view...but these concerns must be the topic of a new discussion, encompassing all classes within game. Now If you are suggesting for example, that Vengeance needs an increase in damage potential to be enabled to compete with these three other class examples, well that may appear silly. From what perspective are these concerns originating from?

 

From a PVP perspective, the correlations that we both refer to, are paradoxical, for the largest contributing factor in that equation is player skill. How can a person state that Vengeance spec damage potential, needs to be brought up to a marauder's level, or a sniper's? Their class abilities and playstyles , are very different by comparison.

 

....

 

First, I will refer you to the poster above me.

 

Second, my post was a counterpoint to yours. You cannot answer a counterpoint with the original point..

 

You have said absolutely nothing in your wall of text.

 

From a PVP perspective, the correlations that we both refer to, are paradoxical, for the largest contributing factor in that equation is player skill. How can a person state that Vengeance spec damage potential, needs to be brought up to a marauder's level, or a sniper's? Their class abilities and playstyles , are very different by comparison.

 

I really want to focus in on this.

 

The largest determining factor in Balance/Madness is player skill. It takes a very skilled and very devoted player to even come reasonably close to the expected damage potential, and even then it doesn't happen.

 

The largest determining factor of Vigilance is a proc on MS, which means that the largest determining factor is.. you guessed it.. luck.

 

The largest determining factor of Marauder Smash (since that is the DPS spec we refer to).. is nothing. It is an out-of-the-box dominant spec with the best offense and the best defense. Player skill factors in CONSIDERABLY less than anything that any other class has to offer.

 

This is why I said that the devs do not share your sentiment, and neither do most of the posters here.

 

What you are saying is that because we choose to play a high-skill spec, we should be subject to the mercy of RNG.

 

What we are saying is that because we choose to play a high-skill spec, we should be subject to our own skill level.

[UndyingHadyn]

In what way?

 

You and I are at separate sides of the Vengeance pvp/pve spectrum, but I'll shed some light on the subject yet again. That said, there have been many suggestions provided for another look into the way that Vengeance works. I'll stick with the Vengeance tree, for this seems to be a delicate issue with you. We, the Jug community have come a long way with theorycrafting, revamps, and general ideas. Almost all of them would benefit both pve and pvp gameplay. Whether or not some of them strike a chord with the developers, will remain to be seen.

 

In pvp, damage is important...being able to inflict damage is important. Being able to mitigate incoming damage is also very important...very important. Now the pretty thing about vengeance, in pvp, is that it has a very good ability to do both. Depending on who you speak to, some will say vengeance is good, some will say it's bad, I will say that it's great...simply for this reason.

 

Now asking for player driven options for controlling the function of Vengeance damage potential, is something that appeals to me. Basically, instead of relying on the standard rotation within a fight, the rng dynamics could be tweaked to allow more player control. What I mean to say is, even pve'ers know how small some windows for burst can be. I think if the developers re-evaluated the capacity for Vengeance gameplay in this regard, we'd see more of that dps potential in our hands, instead of "lady luck's".

 

Vengeance spec's survivability may be perceived as the "achilles heel" for those who don't get a chance to utilize it, or understand how beneficial it is. I'm all for improvements to our class, but I'll state yet again, asking for more Vengeance damage potential, while assisting in pve, would become overpowered from a pvp standpoint. You can disagree with me until your blue in the face. Once again, the developers may read all of this and totally rework the spec, but as it stands, these facts are why Vengeance is currently as complex as it is.

 

 

I think the biggest misconception experienced here on your behalf, is the lack of appreciation for the current Vengeance playstyle. I think If you could concede the fact that Vengeance survivability, is one of the great features of the spec... then we might be heading somewhere. Until then, you are nothing more than a lippy apprentice, who shall continue to amuse me.

[Alec_Fortescue]

Could you mention that there is absolutely no incentive to choose a Juggernaut instead of a Marauder into end-game (and I mean hardest end-game content!) operations? If Juggernauts could receive some raid utility raid groups might even desire to balance their groups out by adding this extra effect instead of another Bloodthirst.

 

Btw Ravage is the last ability you can rely on in pvp. Easily interrupted, slow channel, despite the range it can still be easily escaped from even when slowed.

 

Preparation is also the most useless talent out there. Useless in PvE for boss fights (and Vengeance is mainly a pve tree) and in PvP it rarely procs because you're in combat most of the time and once you're out the abilities refresh anyway before you engage again.

 

When do we get them answered btw? Tomorrow?

Edited September 8, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[UndyingHadyn]

Could you mention that there is absolutely no incentive to choose a Juggernaut instead of a Marauder into end-game (and I mean hardest end-game content!) operations? If Juggernauts could receive some raid utility raid groups might even desire to balance their groups out by adding this extra effect instead of another Bloodthirst.

 

Btw Ravage is the last ability you can rely on in pvp. Easily interrupted, slow channel, despite the range it can still be easily escaped from even when slowed.

 

Preparation is also the most useless talent out there. Useless in PvE for boss fights (and Vengeance is mainly a pve tree) and in PvP it rarely procs because you're in combat most of the time and once you're out the abilities refresh anyway before you engage again.

 

When do we get them answered btw? Tomorrow?

 

Definitely. The points you've mentioned are indeed valid concerns. The heat is on. Our community has presented very good concerns to the developers. There are literally thousands, anticipating the reply. This is pretty heavy stuff.

[UndyingHadyn]

kennethdale, seriously. Take this to PM's. The Jugg Forum and especially this thread are no place for arguments and YES, that's EXACTLY, what this is. This isn't constructive, you're just at each others throats. Questions are submitted, Answers will be up in the next few hours. Just chill the kriff down and stop bickering, seriously. It's pathetic.

 

FYP

 

 

Of course. I'm glad you pointed that out. Cheers to you and everyone else who helped construct our juggernaut questions.

[kennethdale]

UndyingHadyn and kennethdale, seriously. Take this to PM's. The Jugg Forum and especially this thread are no place for arguments and YES, that's EXACTLY, what this is. This isn't constructive, you're just at each others throats. Questions are submitted, Answers will be up in the next few hours. Just chill the kriff down and stop bickering, seriously. It's pathetic.

 

As I said, I am done with him. Put him on my ignore. Now though I'm just worried about whether or not the person answering the questions will be the one who answered sent/sniper or the one who answered vg/sorc.

[K_osss]

Hey everyone,

 

Just a heads up. As I hinted at around the Sorc/Van questions from last time (heal to full anyone? ) we will not be posting answers on Fridays anymore. I am aiming to get them to all of you Monday. Either way I will post an update Monday on the status!

 

Thanks everyone,

 

-eric

 

3:45 on Monday - any update?

[Sturjus]

It's Monday, where's our update?!?! Edited September 9, 2013 by Sturjus

[EricMusco]

It's Monday, where's our update?!?!

 

Unfortunately I will not be delivering your top 3 to you today. Things right now look possible for tomorrow but more likely for Wednesday. I will get them to you as soon as I can!

 

-eric

[ArenCordial]

Unfortunately I will not be delivering your top 3 to you today. Things right now look possible for tomorrow but more likely for Wednesday. I will get them to you as soon as I can!

 

-eric

 

Disappointing, but thank you for the update.

[UndyingHadyn]

Hmm. I see there were some posts cleaned up or removed. Too bad for I was having fun with them. When I get more time at home, I'll present more info to the likes of kendale, as to why Rage is the most powerful spec, Immortal is the strongest, and why Vengeance is the most balanced.

 

Hmm, maybe maverickmatt can chime in here. Where are the posts that you and I were involved in, which we commented on Crit DR revamps and a "Shield Break" mechanism?

 

Hmm maybe be the developers snagged them, and are cooking up the possibilities. LoL. Here's to more pleasant fiction.

[kennethdale]

Unfortunately I will not be delivering your top 3 to you today. Things right now look possible for tomorrow but more likely for Wednesday. I will get them to you as soon as I can!

 

-eric

 

Based on the references to sorc van on the other page I'd guess there are two possibilities as to why were delayed: The answers were supposed to have been submitted before the weekend but weren't or they were and the answers were not....PC.

[Sturjus]

Unfortunately I will not be delivering your top 3 to you today. Things right now look possible for tomorrow but more likely for Wednesday. I will get them to you as soon as I can!

 

-eric

 

Thanks for the update Eric!