Official Juggernaut Questions

[lMarlfoxl]

PvP

We the community believe that the most outstanding issue with the juggernaut dps tree's are their lack of adequate cooldowns with an emphasis on "Enraged Defense." In the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense" is arguably one of the best cooldowns for dps juggernauts. In the rage tree however it is almost useless when fighting 1v1 and incredibly useless when being focused by multiple enemies. A solution to the Rage Tree "Enraged Defense" would be to increase the amount of healing received by the skill or to make it similar to the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense." Also it will be extremely important to remove the resource cost of the skill and the resource cost while the skill is active in both trees. As it stands by using "Enraged Defense" for both trees you are inhibiting your ability to put out dps. We understand that in PvP scenarios rage juggernauts put out an incredible amount of pressure and damage, but the damage to survivability ratio is severely imbalanced. We also understand that juggernauts have the utility to taunt and mitigate damage to other players, but you can't taunt if you cannot survive.

 

Question: What solutions/thoughts does the combat development team have regarding the above issue?

 

PvE

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE.

 

With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Question: Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

 

General

Vengeance currently suffers from two distinctive problems which affect its performance in both PvP and PvE.

 

First is the dependency on the Rampage proc to refresh Ravage. Unlike many other specs, Vengeance can not refresh Ravage through ability spam, as both Impale and Shatter have significant cooldowns accompanied with a comparatively low proc chance of similar abilities (30%). Given the long 30 sec cooldown on Ravage, this creates great variance in damage performance when DPS and rage generation dip down due to a 'no proc' scenario.

 

Second is the fact that Ravage is a melee channel, and suffers from all the vulnerabilities that go with these types of abilities. Much of its damage can be avoided simply with movement (which leaves the Juggernaut outside of melee range) and it can be be shut down with mezzes, stuns, knockbacks, etc. This is a significant issue due to how little damage our filler abilities deal, leaving Vengeance at great risk of being shut down completely in group PvP environments after the initial Ravage (from unstoppable).

 

To be clear, the community enjoys Ravage and considers it the cornerstone of the spec.

 

Question: With this in mind, would the combat team consider making some changes to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in PvE and PvP?

Edited September 3, 2013 by lMarlfoxl

[Marb]

The recent edits to 2 and 3 missed out by the looks of it. They were changed a little in an attempt to encourage some detail in the design goals, as well as trying to make them more dispassionate.

 

I hope it doesn't harm the answers too much, because they do sound a little aggressive and presumptuous in their current state. They ended up this way because of how the lead in text was removed and a lot of the fat trimmed to make them more shorter and more direct.

 

If Eric could keep that in mind, the last thing we want is to piss off the combat team by telling them how things *should be.*

Edited August 31, 2013 by Marb

[lMarlfoxl]

I competely disagree I think the Dev's need to be told exactly what is wrong and how to fix it, regardless if they get mad.

[UndyingHadyn]

Grats man. I'm glad you were able to plant yer feet down and make decisions. If I were rep I would have done the same thing. The questions feel a bit like yer trying to fillet a fish with a butter knife, but they'll do alright.

[Aelaias]

Regarding the pvp question, rage already gets 9% damage bonus after every smash on top of +3% from shi-cho and 30% any time armor ignore which frankly leaves shien in the dust. In view of that giving the spec greater damage mitigation would be obscene and I get the feeling that's what the developer response will be. The cooldown is fine especially since it can be paired with enure for pretty much 4% healing/sec. The problem is it is expensive and the skill which lowers its cost is crap despite being high up in the tree. THAT skill should be the subject of the question with the idea being potential addition of functionality to make it more attractive.

 

I also think that the question of giving the class a separate threat dump would be very valid from the pve tanking perspective although linking it to the aoe taunt as some have suggested is nuts. Enrage defense would be a good cooldown for pve tanks too if not for the threat dump effect. Threat dump and self-heal effects should be separate.

 

Vengeance needs faster dps and more mobility. With 2.4 assault/pyro will be unambiguously better (and I maintain that it already is). Ravage is very awkward as a source of burst due to its major part being locked down in the last tick. Spreading the dps evenly between 3 ticks would in my view improve the situation in addition to whatever else.

[ellenbec]

Looking over Question 2 for you guys, wording it the way it was may lead to an answer of "Stack Alacrity to speed up the channel time on Ravage".

 

I say this solely due to the fact that BioWare slammed Alacrity on EVERY piece of gear.

 

Good luck though to my brothers in Heavy Armor

[ArenCordial]

Looking over Question 2 for you guys, wording it the way it was may lead to an answer of "Stack Alacrity to speed up the channel time on Ravage".

 

I say this solely due to the fact that BioWare slammed Alacrity on EVERY piece of gear.

 

Good luck though to my brothers in Heavy Armor

 

You could stack a ridiculous amount of alacrity and it wouldn't make a difference. They seemed to have realized this with the Kell Dragon gear because only 1 implant even has alacrity.

[Marb]

Regarding the pvp question, rage already gets 9% damage bonus after every smash on top of +3% from shi-cho and 30% any time armor ignore which frankly leaves shien in the dust. In view of that giving the spec greater damage mitigation would be obscene and I get the feeling that's what the developer response will be. The cooldown is fine especially since it can be paired with enure for pretty much 4% healing/sec. The problem is it is expensive and the skill which lowers its cost is crap despite being high up in the tree. THAT skill should be the subject of the question with the idea being potential addition of functionality to make it more attractive.

 

I also think that the question of giving the class a separate threat dump would be very valid from the pve tanking perspective although linking it to the aoe taunt as some have suggested is nuts. Enrage defense would be a good cooldown for pve tanks too if not for the threat dump effect. Threat dump and self-heal effects should be separate.

 

Vengeance needs faster dps and more mobility. With 2.4 assault/pyro will be unambiguously better (and I maintain that it already is). Ravage is very awkward as a source of burst due to its major part being locked down in the last tick. Spreading the dps evenly between 3 ticks would in my view improve the situation in addition to whatever else.

The PvP question did go through a lot of edits and changes, but that version didn't make the cut: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6709427&postcount=67.

 

The current PvP question was more popular with the PvP crowd, so I think that was the reason Marl decided to go with it.

 

Looking over Question 2 for you guys, wording it the way it was may lead to an answer of "Stack Alacrity to speed up the channel time on Ravage".

 

I say this solely due to the fact that BioWare slammed Alacrity on EVERY piece of gear.

 

Good luck though to my brothers in Heavy Armor

There were also changes to 2 and 3 that removed specific suggestions and made them less confrontational. 2 also evolved a bit to place more emphasis on the rampage proc. These edits missed out on the final posting.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Marb

[Luckygunslinger]

Guys, just keep in mind, the Rep System was made to be a Q and A, nothing more. Just making it clear because people have been given an inch and are taking miles with the Q and A and that's what happened with the Sorc's, they thought that their questions being answered would be rainbows and lollipops and everything would be fixed. Just keep in mind the reply could be quite disappointing, but I don't see 'how' considering more than any other class I played (exception being Assassin) We have the biggest and notable issues.

 

If they do tell us to stack Alacrity, someone will do the Math, come back with the amount of Enhancements you'd need as well as augments to make a dent in the channel, and the loss of Surge and Accuracy would kill you. I think it's impossible to stack enough Alacrity to make a rough .5 second reduction in the cast and sustain 100% Accuracy and a decent amount of Surge. I wouldn't mind Enrage giving you 30% alacrity. With No Alacrity in my Marauders gear, 30% Alacrity makes a HUGE reduction in my Ravages Channel. Every 45 seconds you get 6 charges of Enrage that grant 30% Alacrity. That would be quite amazing. Tying it into 'Ruin' (Free Smash) ability might be the best bet. I think the fact Rage gets 3 stacks of Shockwave from Enrage is a viable offensive Cooldown for them, Vengeance needs one more so than anything else, but that's merely my opinion.

 

Marauders can pop out Beserk with Carnage at the start with building stacks with Brooding (Channel Hatred Builds stacks of Fury). Then when that's finished, they can pop Frenzy and do it again (May be saved for bloodthirst but still.) Parsing quickly on my Marauder, I can pop out about 4 to 5 beserks in 1 minute 45 seconds which is about 2 and a bit of Enrages. So that's 26-30 stacks for a Marauder Vs. 12 stacks for a Juggernaut, you could give us more stacks to make it adequate but, *shrug* better than nothing. With No Alacrity in my Marauders gear, his channel for Ravage goes from 3.0 to 2.3 seconds.

 

To be honest, I more like to spit ball than suggest stuff to the devs. Their game after all. But, one can only hope and dream.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Luckygunslinger

[lazerxxx]

In the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense" is arguably one of the best cooldowns for dps juggernauts

 

Does it works differently in PVP, because in PVE Enraged Defense is probably one of the worst skills in the game for a veng Juggernaut.

[UndyingHadyn]

Regarding the pvp question, rage already gets 9% damage bonus after every smash on top of +3% from shi-cho and 30% any time armor ignore which frankly leaves shien in the dust. In view of that giving the spec greater damage mitigation would be obscene and I get the feeling that's what the developer response will be. The cooldown is fine especially since it can be paired with enure for pretty much 4% healing/sec. The problem is it is expensive and the skill which lowers its cost is crap despite being high up in the tree. THAT skill should be the subject of the question with the idea being potential addition of functionality to make it more attractive.

 

 

****Rage spec does more damage because it was designed to do so. If vengeance is to receive more dps, then rage must receive more survivability. There are many situations in pvp where one spec will trump the other, having said that, it's very important we keep the playstyles and dps potential different. I had suggested earlier, that rampage include a rotating mild melee crit boost attached to the proc. If the developers were to include a dps boost, my suggestion would be the only acceptable option. If vengeance received an ability to noticeably increase dps, it would be overpowered. The bottom line here is, Rage will hit you harder, but vengeance is harder to kill... I think the specs are working as intended, for we cannot disregard the most elusive factor in both of these spec equations; player skill.****

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also think that the question of giving the class a separate threat dump would be very valid from the pve tanking perspective although linking it to the aoe taunt as some have suggested is nuts. Enrage defense would be a good cooldown for pve tanks too if not for the threat dump effect. Threat dump and self-heal effects should be separate.

 

 

 

****Agreed. I had suggested Intimidating Roar(aoe mezz) as a replacement for threat dump. No one except Marl took me seriously.****

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Vengeance needs faster dps and more mobility. With 2.4 assault/pyro will be unambiguously better (and I maintain that it already is). Ravage is very awkward as a source of burst due to its major part being locked down in the last tick. Spreading the dps evenly between 3 ticks would in my view improve the situation in addition to whatever else.

 

 

****Again I disagree here. We don't need the game to slow our targets down for us, or give us a version of Carnage spec Ravage. There are tools within our tree that we can use to slow our targets, coupled with the obvious advantages of group coordinated gameplay. Asking for more passive slows/roots/faster ravages, sounds like a lazy pve'ers request, and you should feel ashamed if you disagree with me.****

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another point I'd like to make is, regardless of Eric's replies(which our questions may be dismissed), there were a handful of exceptional players who contributed to the progression of this whole affair. At any rate, I'll be relieved if they decide not to gut our class. There is great gameplay within each of our trees, we as players just need to discover it.

 

 

This has been a message from yer UncleOst.

 

 

...give 'em hell.

Edited September 18, 2013 by UndyingHadyn

[Marb]

Guys, just keep in mind, the Rep System was made to be a Q and A, nothing more. Just making it clear because people have been given an inch and are taking miles with the Q and A and that's what happened with the Sorc's, they thought that their questions being answered would be rainbows and lollipops and everything would be fixed. Just keep in mind the reply could be quite disappointing, but I don't see 'how' considering more than any other class I played (exception being Assassin) We have the biggest and notable issues.

 

The final edits that didn't get through were made in an effort to better fit the QA format Eric wants, but, as UncleOst put it, the questions end up "Trying to fillet a fish with a butter knife".

 

The devs want a QA format and the players want their concerns acknowledged and fixed asap. There are a lot of issues and questions that have been festering for a long time, as the community hasn't had access to direct dialog and feedback with the devs outside of the cantina events.

 

Once the air has been cleared, I think the rep program will be healthy for the future development of the PvP and PvE elder-game, but its going to take some time. I anticipate we will see some more ugly backlash like the sorc questions, so I hope the devs stick to their guns and ride it out.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Marb

[ArchangelLBC]

I'd point out that commandos/BHs also lack a true offensive cooldown, for what that's worth. Nice questions overall.

[SkiaTheShade]

Does it works differently in PVP, because in PVE Enraged Defense is probably one of the worst skills in the game for a veng Juggernaut.

 

This is the PvP question, it doesn't have anything to do with PvE

[UndyingHadyn]

I'd point out that commandos/BHs also lack a true offensive cooldown, for what that's worth. Nice questions overall.

 

Ha!

 

I'd gladly take your Explosive Fuel on my vengence jug.

 

Oh wait, Forgive me if it's perceived as a "false" or "lesser" offensive cooldown. lol, I'm also unaware what the trooper version is called.

[Luckygunslinger]

Ha!

 

I'd gladly take your Explosive Fuel on my vengence jug.

 

Oh wait, Forgive me if it's perceived as a "false" or "lesser" offensive cooldown. lol, I'm also unaware what the trooper version is called.

 

PT: Explosive Fuel. Vanguard: Battle Focus.

[CJNJ]

Ha!

 

I'd gladly take your Explosive Fuel on my vengence jug.

 

Oh wait, Forgive me if it's perceived as a "false" or "lesser" offensive cooldown. lol, I'm also unaware what the trooper version is called.

 

I'm sure most PTs/VGs would trade explosive fuel/battle focus for the ability to be viable in most endgame content

 

Also explosive fuel is only for vanguard/PT. commandos and mercenaries only get 1 insta cast move and 1 free move

Edited September 1, 2013 by CJNJ

[Aelaias]

duper Edited September 1, 2013 by Aelaias

[Aelaias]

Another point I'd like to make is, regardless of Eric's replies(which our questions will be mainly dismissed), there were a handful of exceptional players who contributed to the progression of this whole affair. If I was rep, I would have thanked the jug community for basically doing his job for him lol. At any rate, I'll be relieved if they decide not to gut our class. There is great gameplay within each of our trees, you as players just need to discover it.

 

 

This has been a message from yer UncleOst. When you want things to get done, remember me next time we vote for new representat

...give 'em hell.

 

I do NOT see why rage should be competitive with vengeance in the department of single target dps and yet not only is it competitive, often enough it is better with ravage and vicious throw/slash hitting harder as well as faster and more reliable burst delivery. The crazy aoe damage can be looked at as an overly tactically important "fringe benefit". Unless the community (or me) completely misunderstands the point of vigilance/vengeance it should be the single target leader due to the lower "efficiency" of single target dps. I get that the sustained dps is better (marginally) but is it the ultimate purpose of the spec? Perhaps the community should consider this.

 

Also, while a faster channel on ravage would be nice and would allow vengeance to have some of carnage's effectiveness, that's not what I am advocating. I just think it's unreasonable for a melee class to have to rely on a single target channel one has to be stationary for to use and most of whose dps is locked in the last and easiest to avoid part. Questioning this particular damage profile is not unreasonable and I will make it a point to raise the question on the guardian forum since the RNG is also important.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Aelaias

[Luckygunslinger]

I'd point out that commandos/BHs also lack a true offensive cooldown, for what that's worth. Nice questions overall.

 

 

Power Surge and Thermal Sensor Override are the offensive cooldowns. They're pretty good ones at that.

[Aelaias]

I'd point out that commandos/BHs also lack a true offensive cooldown, for what that's worth. Nice questions overall.

 

Commandoes and their opposites, the merc have heals so go ahead and h2f. Vanguards/PTs have the previously mentioned abilities which are excellent although flawed due to their static cooldowns. On the other hand the above archetypes do not have executes which is kinda silly. Knights/SWs have executes but no offensive cooldowns.

[Aelaias]

PvP

We the community believe that the most outstanding issue with the juggernaut dps tree's are their lack of adequate cooldowns with an emphasis on "Enraged Defense." In the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense" is arguably one of the best cooldowns for dps juggernauts. In the rage tree however it is almost useless when fighting 1v1 and incredibly useless when being focused by multiple enemies. When "Enraged Defense" is active in the Rage Tree the amount of healing you receive vs the amount of damage taken is very lopsided in favor of the damage taken. A solution to the Rage Tree "Enraged Defense" would be to increase the amount of healing received by the skill or to make it similar to the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense." Also it will be extremely important to remove the resource cost of the skill and the resource cost while the skill is active in both trees. As it stands by using "Enraged Defense" for both trees you are inhibiting your ability to put out dps. We understand that in PvP scenarios rage juggernauts put out an incredible amount of pressure and damage, but the damage to survivability ratio is severely imbalanced. We also understand that juggernauts have the utility to taunt and mitigate damage to other players, but you can't taunt if you cannot survive.

 

Question: What solutions/thoughts does the combat development team have regarding the above issue?

 

I have an issue with the marked sentence. In my view it invites negative comments along the lines of "you want to be immortal... switch to immortal... roll a marauder... while keeping your dps.." etc. Defensives are there to either prolong the inevitable allowing you to do your job a little longer or to give healers a chance to keep you up. 4% healing/sec is pretty good and focus/rage is rarely starved for focus/rage. If the community is dead set on going this way I would suggest recasting this intro somehow. As I suggested previously, the horrible skill lowering focus cost of this ability could be questioned with the idea of improving the ability. I am not sure you have to give them justification other than the skill is high in the tree and offers relatively low utility for improving the skill which it supports, enraged defense.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Aelaias

[kennethdale]

I competely disagree I think the Dev's need to be told exactly what is wrong and how to fix it, regardless if they get mad.

 

And yet you removed all of the specificity from both PVE related questions while making sure to point out all of the flaws with one cool down in one spec for PvP? Not biased at all, are we?

 

Let me elaborate:

 

First off, as far as I am aware, Vengeance players are not satisfied with Enraged Defense in PvP either so ignoring their concerns in the PvP question is extremely odd. This doesn't even touch on the fact that Rage Marauders are much more viable than Rage Juggernauts in PvP, which again is odd, because to me that is the much bigger issue. Rage Marauders wear lighter armor than Juggernauts but have more survivability in PvP? That seems like the real issue, not Enraged Defense, which is one of many defensive cool downs available to Juggernauts. Asking to add another or make this one more viable is going to get answered with "You get Saber Ward, Endure Pain, and Saber Reflect what else do you need?" And even that still ignores the PvE side of Enraged Defense which is that it is a Threat Drop which costs a significant amount of resources. Myself and many other players suggested questions that tied these two ideas together as a General question but it was instead used as a PvP question completely limiting its possible outcome.

 

On top of that, just look at the questions:

 

We the community believe that the most outstanding issue with the juggernaut dps tree's are their lack of adequate cooldowns with an emphasis on "Enraged Defense." In the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense" is arguably one of the best cooldowns for dps juggernauts. In the rage tree however it is almost useless when fighting 1v1 and incredibly useless when being focused by multiple enemies. When "Enraged Defense" is active in the Rage Tree the amount of healing you receive vs the amount of damage taken is very lopsided in favor of the damage taken. A solution to the Rage Tree "Enraged Defense" would be to increase the amount of healing received by the skill or to make it similar to the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense." Also it will be extremely important to remove the resource cost of the skill and the resource cost while the skill is active in both trees. As it stands by using "Enraged Defense" for both trees you are inhibiting your ability to put out dps. We understand that in PvP scenarios rage juggernauts put out an incredible amount of pressure and damage, but the damage to survivability ratio is severely imbalanced. We also understand that juggernauts have the utility to taunt and mitigate damage to other players, but you can't taunt if you cannot survive.

 

Question: What solutions/thoughts does the combat development team have regarding the above issue?

 

At the very least, this question is phrased in such a way that it requires a sentence to respond: "We disagree with the above issues and think the addition of another cool down to the Juggernaut advanced class would be extremely unbalanced."

 

PvE

Vengeance doesn't translate very well to a live operation environment, where the reliance on a channeled melee ability (Ravage) is consistently punished due to encounter design. Additionally, Vengeance can't reliably refresh Ravage, as both Impale and Shatter have notable cooldowns and rage costs accompanied with low proc chances (30%). Outside of Impale and Shatter, there is no way to trigger Rampage.

 

Question: Would the combat team consider making some changes (like faster ravage channel and improved proc chances) to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in a dynamic operation environment?

 

First and foremost, all of the input the PvE players added to make this question more specific was just thrown out the window? Why? Where are the comparisons to similar classes (Mercenaries have a 45% proc chance and can spam Tracer Missile for a Proc, Lightning Sorcerers have a 60% proc chance and it can be procced off of spammable Lightning Strike and their Thundering Blast, Madness Sorcerers have a 30% chance to proc but Force Lightning can be spammed to get a proc, Carnage Marauders have a 45% chance to proc Slaughter and it can be spammed, Carnage Marauders have a 30% chance to proc Execute but it can be spammed...do I need to go on?) I mean for God's sake, that comparison I listed was incomplete and was longer than the actual question posted. Which is leaving aside the fact that the question is phrased such that a simple "No." technically is all it requires.

 

General

General) Out of all the classes in the game, the Juggernaut holds the distinction of being the only advanced class that lacks an offensive cooldown in a literal sense. Enrage gives more rage, but doesn't feel very interesting and has no secondary dps benefit.

 

Question: Would the developers consider granting the Juggernaut an offensive cooldown? Alternatively, would adding an interesting secondary effect onto Enrage be something to consider?

 

Again, for those comparing Merc/Mandos: While TSO/PS may be lacklustre and have long CDs they are in fact OCDs. But regardless, this question can be answered with a simple "No." or even elaborated to the fact that Enrage, again while lacklustre counts as an OCD. The much bigger issue than whether or not we have an OCD, is why a raid/rated group would take us over a Marauder when we have NO utility outside of our taunt. The current answer is that we are taken when the player behind the keyboard is simply so amazing that his/her ability outweighs the lack of utility.

 

These questions ignore all of the PvE communities input and, I'd wager, the Vengeance PvP community as well in favor of asking one specific question about Rage and just throwing away the other two because the rep simply didn't care about them.

Edited September 1, 2013 by kennethdale

[lazerxxx]

This is the PvP question, it doesn't have anything to do with PvE

I know, i just want to know why is one of the worst PVE abilities suddenly one of the best in PVP.

[kennethdale]

I know, i just want to know why is one of the worst PVE abilities suddenly one of the best in PVP.

 

I'm also curious how an ability can be terrible in PvE for all 3 specs, terrible in PvP for 2 of 3 specs, but great in the third. That seems very odd.