Kaggath Tournament - Droid Supremacy vs Undying Brotherhood

[Canino]

So I'm finally home, and have my computer again. Time to serve "my lady!"

 

So my evil scheme- riots. How? Easy.....

 

If I am correct, and the main workforce of the UB are slaves, then riots will do quite a lot of damage, ranging from slow production, sabotage, intel, and serve a military campaign on UB soil.

 

The DS has the Exchange- the smuggling, gun trafficking criminal force. It would be easy for the DS to bribe, or simply fund slave riots, giving them arms and other equipment to maximize the damage. In theory, and with G0-T0 "brain" they could shut down all production in the UB in time, killing destroying building, sabotaging ships and other key things, and (most importantly) force portions of the UB military to fight them, and not the DS.

[Canino]

Seems my point is lost on practically everyone. Unsurprisingly.

 

I understand you (I think). You believe that with such advantages, it shouldn't have taken 2 years for Revan to do what he did. I agree.

[Selenial]

A few other things. The major point of contention here will be Mon Cal, as it is easily the closest and vital to the space campaign. With the somewhat interesting change in my perception of the makeup of both fleets, I cannot stress this enough, what happens to Mon Cal will decide it all. If the UB can destroy Mon Cal then DS can't build a fleet of more powerful vessels. UB will also get a way to build more than just their fighters. As we've seen from the previous kaggaths, the space battle is often one of the biggest deciding factors

 

Well that's a shame for the DS then isn't it?

 

The Undying Brotherhood has the Best Space Tactician, Grevious, they have the best fighter Pilot, Ventress, and the better space forces. Oh and before anyone says Ventress wasn't phenomenal, with the Help of 3 Tri Fighters she took down Kenobi and Skywalker, and was engaged in a VERY long dogfight with Skywalker himself, of which neither came close to winning/losing.

 

She was also a good Tactician, taking out Yularens fleet with ease, actually managing to destroy the Resolute and would have taken that fleet (Bearing in mind that fleet had Yularen Skywalker and Kenobi) down had Dooku not betrayed her.

[StarSquirrel]

So I'm finally home, and have my computer again. Time to serve "my lady!"

 

So my evil scheme- riots. How? Easy.....

 

If I am correct, and the main workforce of the UB are slaves, then riots will do quite a lot of damage, ranging from slow production, sabotage, intel, and serve a military campaign on UB soil.

 

The DS has the Exchange- the smuggling, gun trafficking criminal force. It would be easy for the DS to bribe, or simply fund slave riots, giving them arms and other equipment to maximize the damage. In theory, and with G0-T0 "brain" they could shut down all production in the UB in time, killing destroying building, sabotaging ships and other key things, and (most importantly) force portions of the UB military to fight them, and not the DS.

Add this to assassinations by PROXY and Guri as well as HK-01's droid revolt and UB will have some major issues on its own soil without a DS army even touching down.

[Selenial]

Question: If HK-01 gets Rebellious and takes Over G0-T0, does G0-T0 automatically lose? 'Cause if at any point HK thinks he can do a better job...........

[Selenial]

So I'm finally home, and have my computer again. Time to serve "my lady!"

 

So my evil scheme- riots. How? Easy.....

 

If I am correct, and the main workforce of the UB are slaves, then riots will do quite a lot of damage, ranging from slow production, sabotage, intel, and serve a military campaign on UB soil.

 

The DS has the Exchange- the smuggling, gun trafficking criminal force. It would be easy for the DS to bribe, or simply fund slave riots, giving them arms and other equipment to maximize the damage. In theory, and with G0-T0 "brain" they could shut down all production in the UB in time, killing destroying building, sabotaging ships and other key things, and (most importantly) force portions of the UB military to fight them, and not the DS.

 

Revolts are highly unlikely. The slaves are born into Slavery, they know of nothing else. I Highly doubt a revolt would happen, and If it did, it would be easily quelled.

 

There was a Revolt on Dromund Kass, but I don't want to ruin plotlines in the game so I'll just say.... It had extenuating circumstances.

[Canino]

Revolts are highly unlikely. The slaves are born into Slavery, they know of nothing else. I Highly doubt a revolt would happen, and If it did, it would be easily quelled.

 

There was a Revolt on Dromund Kass, but I don't want to ruin plotlines in the game so I'll just say.... It had extenuating circumstances.

 

Thank you for your spoiler-free-ness, but what better way to create a revolt than war? It takes the eyes off the slaves, and on the enemy. Add to it the promise of money, arms, freedom..... and a revolt will happen. And when one slave revolts, more will follow.

[StarSquirrel]

Well that's a shame for the DS then isn't it?

 

The Undying Brotherhood has the Best Space Tactician, Grevious, they have the best fighter Pilot, Ventress, and the better space forces. Oh and before anyone says Ventress wasn't phenomenal, with the Help of 3 Tri Fighters she took down Kenobi and Skywalker, and was engaged in a VERY long dogfight with Skywalker himself, of which neither came close to winning/losing.

 

She was also a good Tactician, taking out Yularens fleet with ease, actually managing to destroy the Resolute and would have taken that fleet (Bearing in mind that fleet had Yularen Skywalker and Kenobi) down had Dooku not betrayed her.

I don't dispute that DS has some issues in space, hence why i brought all that up (sorry Warren).

 

That said, it is feasible for a fleet of smaller ships to defeat bigger ones. (Endor, Hydian Way, Coruscant-rebel era, ect...). I also side with the suggestion that the Black Sun fleet easily outnumbers Revan's fleet. As a galaxy-spanning ultra-wealthy criminal enterprise, there is imo little doubt that they could bring immense numbers to bear.

 

Tactics are the area that DS is really lacking, but I wonder how well UB will fight when all their utility droids and Commerce Guild war droids are venting the ship and killing the crews.

[Selenial]

Thank you for your spoiler-free-ness, but what better way to create a revolt than war? It takes the eyes off the slaves, and on the enemy. Add to it the promise of money, arms, freedom..... and a revolt will happen. And when one slave revolts, more will follow.

 

The Slaves would be Ill-Equipped, they couldn't handle a Single powerful Sith... One revolt quelled is hundreds more silenced. Once they fail miserably, no more will Happen.

 

But I'm interested in thoughts about HK.

[Selenial]

I don't dispute that DS has some issues in space, hence why i brought all that up (sorry Warren).

 

That said, it is feasible for a fleet of smaller ships to defeat bigger ones. (Endor, Hydian Way, Coruscant-rebel era, ect...). I also side with the suggestion that the Black Sun fleet easily outnumbers Revan's fleet. As a galaxy-spanning ultra-wealthy criminal enterprise, there is imo little doubt that they could bring immense numbers to bear.

 

Tactics are the area that DS is really lacking, but I wonder how well UB will fight when all their utility droids and Commerce Guild war droids are venting the ship and killing the crews.

 

Again, I said HK needed the right Equipment and I've heard no responses.... Besides, I think it would be too hard to do at once in space, and with the Communications blocks the ships could throw up, won't really be plausible.

 

Endor would have been lost easily btw, if the Emperor wasn't killed. Can't exactly use that as an example

 

Revans was a Galaxy spanning empire not Crime Syndicate. Their ships are incredible advanced, stupendously powerful and Oh-so war based. The Droid Supremacy won't have war focussed ships, more blockade runners and the lot.....

 

They never went to Open war with huge factions, so they never needed War vessels.

[StarSquirrel]

Revolts are highly unlikely. The slaves are born into Slavery, they know of nothing else. I Highly doubt a revolt would happen, and If it did, it would be easily quelled.

 

Revolts happen in every single slave owning culture in known history. So yes, they are likely but the size and scope are usually rather small. If you add an organized element to it and supply them then a minor revolt can become a major one insanely fast. On top of this if say, your military officers experienced with these revolts, are suddenly killed in freak accidents caused by their utility droids then the responses will be sluggish allowing the revolt to build. Add to this, riots or exoduses of people trying to escape the slave mobs and rouge droids and your entire culture is on the verge of collapse. Then try fighting a war with machines to top it off.

[Selenial]

Revolts happen in every single slave owning culture in known history. So yes, they are likely but the size and scope are usually rather small. If you add an organized element to it and supply them then a minor revolt can become a major one insanely fast. On top of this if say, your military officers experienced with these revolts, are suddenly killed in freak accidents caused by their utility droids then the responses will be sluggish allowing the revolt to build. Add to this, riots or exoduses of people trying to escape the slave mobs and rouge droids and your entire culture is on the verge of collapse. Then try fighting a war with machines to top it off.

 

Those Societies captured slaves from captured countries and worked them to death. Then captured more.

 

The Sith Empire treat slaves well enough to keep them Alive, and gain more and more as they have children, who are consequently sold into Slavery.

 

Having freedom and ripping it away causes revolts, but being born into a live where all you know is Subjugation, freedom is a horrifying thought most slaves would not want.

 

And again... Still no responses to the Machinery thingy.

[Canino]

The Slaves would be Ill-Equipped, they couldn't handle a Single powerful Sith... One revolt quelled is hundreds more silenced. Once they fail miserably, no more will Happen.

 

But I'm interested in thoughts about HK.

 

The Exchange would be supplying them with everything they need and more. Stealth, arms, money, intel.... they will not be ill equipped. In fact the exact opposite.

[Canino]

Those Societies captured slaves from captured countries and worked them to death. Then captured more.

 

The Sith Empire treat slaves well enough to keep them Alive, and gain more and more as they have children, who are consequently sold into Slavery.

 

Having freedom and ripping it away causes revolts, but being born into a live where all you know is Subjugation, freedom is a horrifying thought most slaves would not want.

 

And again... Still no responses to the Machinery thingy.

 

Um, what? Slaves wouldn't want to have free will, the ability to relax and have control of their lives? No.....

 

Being born into slavery would only make slaves want freedom more! The only reason they are there is because of the Sith. Very similar to the Belsavis prison riots, if you ask me.....

[Selenial]

Um, what? Slaves wouldn't want to have free will, the ability to relax and have control of their lives? No.....

 

Being born into slavery would only make slaves want freedom more! The only reason they are there is because of the Sith. Very similar to the Belsavis prison riots, if you ask me.....

 

*Sigh*

I'm sorry. This was my fault, it's semi-complex Psychology that I'm bringing up as if everyone should understand...

 

Basically, the things people want in life very much come down to Nature or Nurture. Freedom is mainly under Nurture, you live life under a leader who feeds you, clothes you and Houses you, in exchange for work, you'd be willing to do it. You'd eventually want to be in charge of the slaves, but freedom would be something that scares you.

 

Slaves are never educated, they'd have no Idea how to live in the outside world and that is drilled into their brains. The ability to live under someone and be forced to go through a routine satisfies and calms them, the Idea of going off and doing your own thing is scary, and even worse the idea of only being able to do that through revolt against your all powerful lightning wielding masters.

 

I mean come on, most Societies never had to have loads of security around slaves. 1 man with a Sword coudl hold 20 slaves, even though they could likely take him out, for the simple reason that they're too afraid of their masters, and too afraid of what awaits them outside of their life as a Slave to do anything.... But be a slave.

[Warren-Stride]

Again, I said HK needed the right Equipment and I've heard no responses.... Besides, I think it would be too hard to do at once in space, and with the Communications blocks the ships could throw up, won't really be plausible.

 

The right equipment? What?

 

Let me explain what happened during the Great Droid Revolution.

 

HK-01 single handedly corrupted the programming of droids throughout the galaxy, without any assistance from a powerful organization. He, alone, caused worlds to be conquered by newly rebellious droids. I don't understand how you can say that now, when he has the support of an entire organization including armies and worlds, he can't do the same thing. He would be able to do it better.

 

And it's absurd to argue that HK-01 couldn't get the "right kind of equipment" on Nar Shaddaa.

 

Droids are the backbone of Star Wars society. All of them. They are the builders. The maintenance. The guards. The calculators. The custodians. When HK-01 turns all of the beings that keep empires running against their masters, it's going to go downhill fast for the UB. The Great Droid Revolution only lasted a couple weeks and Coruscant was rebuilding for years.

 

Imagine every worker in the Lianna shipyards suddenly despising their biological masters. Every battle droid wanting to turn its blaster on its maker. Every repair droid suddenly motivated to help sabotage the ship, rather than fix it. Every single household and government droid on Lianna, Zoist, Dromund Kaas, all of the UB's planets abruptly revolting. The UB practically couldn't function without droids.

 

As for HK-01 offing G0-T0, why? They're both droids. HK-01 simply wants biological life to be exterminated. And by helping G0-T0 win the Kaggath, he'll be doing just that.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[StarSquirrel]

Um, what? Slaves wouldn't want to have free will, the ability to relax and have control of their lives? No.....

 

Being born into slavery would only make slaves want freedom more! The only reason they are there is because of the Sith. Very similar to the Belsavis prison riots, if you ask me.....

 

Point^

 

Born into slavery? American slaves faced this all the time, slavery and segregation was all they knew but they still wanted freedom. On top of that the empire's slaves where not all born into it. They where a mix of captured enemies, prisoners, and then the slave born into it. I bet you those prisoners and enemies would absolutely love a crack at the UB.

Edited August 31, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Selenial]

Point^

 

Born into slavery? American slaves faced this all the time, slavery and segregation was all they knew but they still wanted freedom. On top of that the empire's slaves where not all born into it. They where a mix of captured enemies, prisoners, and then the slave born into it. I bet you those prisoners and enemies would absolutely love a crack at the UB.

Already addressed it. If you guys won't believe it that's fine, all I can do is suggest you go do some research.

 

Edit: Seriously, go read up on American slaves if you want. A lot who were born into slavery describe it as Benign even, and their masters Benevolent.

 

Edit 2: And again, if you read up on it, Many of the Born Into Slavery slaves were not happy, committed suicide, or became depressed when Slavery ended, because they were still looked down upon and couldn't read or Write, and had no Idea what to do in the real world

Edited August 31, 2013 by Selenial

[StarSquirrel]

Already addressed it. If you guys won't believe it that's fine, all I can do is suggest you go do some research.

 

Sel, your psychology bit makes 2 massive and unwarranted assumptions. One- it ignores a person's capacity of observation (they see free people with a better life) and courage (the ability to challenge that) as well as the ability to rise above your situation. Your mass psychology is great and all, but we are hardly all products of our environments. If you believe that then I'm sorry for you.

 

Secondly, slaves in the empire have never be totally comprised of descendants of slaves. There are always new sources such as prisoners (of war, political, and regular). These people know what freedom is and they are also willing to fight for it. They can educate their fellow slaves and with Black Sun allies they could easily organize.

Edited August 31, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Warren-Stride]

Edit: Seriously, go read up on American slaves if you want. A lot who were born into slavery describe it as Benign even, and their masters Benevolent.

 

Hold. The phone.

 

This is not America, people.

 

I suggest -you- do some research as well. Or, I can do it for you. From the SWTOR Codex entitled Slavery in the Empire:

In contrast with the Republic, which officially condemns the practice, slavery is widely accepted across the Empire. However, instead of slaves being bought and sold merely on an individual basis, the custom has been fully incorporated into the hierarchy of Imperial society. As the lowest caste, slaves perform menial duties and backbreaking labor, and they possess virtually no rights or recourse under the law. The ranks of slaves are typically made up of those who fall outside the traditional Imperial power structure: prisoners of war, criminals and aliens from conquered worlds. Children of slaves are born into the same caste as their parents, though it is possible for individuals to be elevated should they show strength and ability that would better serve the Empire in a more distinguished role. Recently–seeking to replenish the ranks of the Sith Order after the war–even the Sith Academy has started accepting slaves who show a strong affinity for the Force… though many still look on these former slaves with disdain.

 

You -seriously- think that slaves would -want- to work for Sith? You know, the people designed to embody everything bad in the universe? Kriff no! Not to mention that most of slaves are criminals, aliens, and enemy soldiers. Not people who were always enslaved, nor who would want to stay enslaved.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[Selenial]

Sel, your psychology bit makes 2 massive and unwarranted assumptions. One- it ignores a person's capacity of observation (they see free people with a better life) and courage (the ability to challenge that) as well as the ability to rise above your situation. Your mass psychology is great and all, but we are hardly all products of our environments. If you believe that then I'm sorry for you.

 

Secondly, slaves in the empire have never be totally comprised of descendants of slaves. There are always new sources such as prisoners (of war, political, and regular). These people know what freedom is and they are also willing to fight for it. They can educate their fellow slaves and with Black Sun allies they could easily organize.

 

Fine. I'll bite.

. . . Mah ole man has stripes on his back now wha he wuz whipped an ah wuz whipped too but hit hoped me up till now. Coase hit did. Hit keeps me fun goin aroun here telling lies an stealin yo chickens.

From: [Regrets end of slavery]. Old slave stories

 

That's a woman talking about how her Master hitting her was a good, thing, it kept her from doing wrong. It kept her in the light.

Of course, she's totally wrong in that Opinion, but it's still what she was raised to believe.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Warren HK didn't do no such thing, all the Great Droid Revolution was, was a bunch of droids on Courscant formed by HK-01 only to get defeated. There was no galactic wide war or anything, it ended in the same year that it was made.

 

Edit: Wait hang on, see there is conflicting information. While on his bio page it says such, under where it has his army and the Great Droid Revolution page, there is no mention of anything galactic wide, so that should be changed on his profile if two other pages are saying the exact opposite of what it says on his profile.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[StarSquirrel]

HK-01 began secretly reprogramming his fellow droids, aiming to liberate his automaton brethren from their sentient masters. HK-01 set the droids to rise up in revolution at his command, and across the galaxy, droids suddenly became violent and aggressive towards their owners. Once-loyal battle droids turned against their masters, and subjugated entire planets in the name of the Droid Revolution.

From HK-01's wookieepedia page. The actual army was on Coruscant but he did sent a great many out into the galaxy.

 

That said, does it matter? He gets an army on DK with a massive slave revolt and at the very least there is severe destabilization of the government.

Edited August 31, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Selenial]

Hold. The phone.

 

This is not America, people.

 

I suggest -you- do some research as well. Or, I can do it for you. From the SWTOR Codex entitled Slavery in the Empire:

 

 

You -seriously- think that slaves would -want- to work for Sith? You know, the people designed to embody everything bad in the universe? Kriff no! Not to mention that most of slaves are criminals, aliens, and enemy soldiers. Not people who were always enslaved, nor who would want to stay enslaved.

 

America has everything to do with this. We're not talking Star Wars, we're talking Basic Human Psychology.

 

No, criminals and the like wouldn't want to work for the Sith. But I never said that. I just said that most of the slaves, the ones who're so Mindless due to being born into slavery would be working in the Important parts of the Brotherhood, not the captured ones with too much spirit and the knowledge of how to hold a blaster.

 

In fact, your quote solidifies my statement. Slaves who think they could be elevated to a position of power above the rest of them, whilst still being told what to do and ordered around would be happy working away with the hopes of that promotion.

 

Besides, the Sith are the most terrifying and Powerful people in the Galaxy. Fear of the Sith would keep the slaves in check, if the promise of power, or the fear of freedom didn't.

[Selenial]

Not even going to try...

 

Good, because all you could say was: "that's one quote!" and I'd have to spam the 8 others I have in front of me