Smash balance idea

[Heal-To-Full]

I play more than enough with more than one character.

Then how do you not see 1M+ healing totals?

 

Yeah back when players had what? 15-20k hp? when 2000 main stat was considered awesome?

Exactly. When players had 20k HP and heals did like 300k a match.

Now they have 30k HP, tanks maybe 40 with PvE gear, and heals do 1-2 million a match.

 

When good teams face one another in the new "war"zones, no one even dies.

[cashogy_reborn]

Make the auto-crit apply to only the target you leap to. BAM problem solved.

 

However, judging by what the devs said in the sentinel questions, Rage/Focus is working as intended.

Edited August 30, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[LaVall]

Rather than have it auto-crit after leap, increase it's critical chance.

+40% would force smashers to stack some critical rather than ignore everything other than power/surge.

Have it auto crit on people affected by force crush. This way they'll still be effective against healers.

[Ayelinna]

Make smash not auto crit.

[sithBracer]

Then how do you not see 1M+ healing totals?

 

Total heals or per person? I thought you were talking about person person, but if you mean total yes I see that all the time except in cases when one team gets stomped or in huttball when we go objective crazy.

 

Exactly. When players had 20k HP and heals did like 300k a match.

Now they have 30k HP, tanks maybe 40 with PvE gear, and heals do 1-2 million a match.

 

Are you talking about total or per person?

 

When good teams face one another in the new "war"zones, no one even dies.

 

Are you talking about arenas? And yes that is to be expected because you have 1 tank who can taunt and guard, 1 healer and only 2 dps. If the tank switches guard properly and taunts while the healer actively LoS's and heals (I am talking about op healer who has mobile healing of course) it will be pretty hard for even the strongest dps to to kill someone. If you have a tank who wants to be a dps or doesn't know his role killing the other team will be very easy.

 

EDIT- In that video that was not the case. I saw no taunt debuff, I saw no guard (or guard switching) and (maybe since it's a perspective of the healer) I did not see any AOE taunt happen.

Edited August 30, 2013 by sithBracer

[HexDecimalUK]

Make smash not auto crit.

 

hehe yeah that would get more of us playing VG 4sure, i do like the idea of only criting the taget effected by force leap and force crush,

[L-RANDLE]

Total heals or per person? I thought you were talking about person person, but if you mean total yes I see that all the time except in cases when one team gets stomped or in huttball when we go objective crazy.

 

 

 

Are you talking about total or per person?

 

 

 

Are you talking about arenas? And yes that is to be expected because you have 1 tank who can taunt and guard, 1 healer and only 2 dps. If the tank switches guard properly and taunts while the healer actively LoS's and heals (I am talking about op healer who has mobile healing of course) it will be pretty hard for even the strongest dps to to kill someone. If you have a tank who wants to be a dps or doesn't know his role killing the other team will be very easy.

 

EDIT- In that video that was not the case. I saw no taunt debuff, I saw no guard (or guard switching) and (maybe since it's a perspective of the healer) I did not see any AOE taunt happen.

 

Most healers have zero issues clipping a mildo. We must be playing a different game. If you can't heal for this much then someone does suck, whether its a lack of peels or enemy DPS. All things being equal DPS is outpaced by HPS.2:1 is a conservative estimate.

Edited August 30, 2013 by L-RANDLE

[SomeJagoff]

Smash with a cast time would probably be the most useless ability in the game.

 

hmm, could be kinda cool if they redesigned the ability completely so it was like Yadira Ban's in Black Talon, so you activate smash, everyone around gets sucked in, you become cc/interrupt immune, then if people don't move out of it, boom, 20k damage.

 

2. smash puts down a ground AoE similar to the Jedi NPCs for Poisonous Strategy mission on Ilum

 

That would be an interesting change. It would sorta turn smash into plasma probe. Most likely would break the spec for pve and probably pvp too though.

Edited August 30, 2013 by SomeJagoff

[sithBracer]

Most healers have zero issues clipping a mildo. We must be playing a different game. If you can't heal for this much then someone does suck, whether its a lack of peels or enemy DPS. All things being equal DPS is outpaced by HPS.2:1 is a conservative estimate.

 

That doesn't even make sense. How can you heal when there is no damage? People stepping into the fire more often than they should? If you are comparing 2 healers to 5 dps then yeah chances are one of those healers might get a higher healing number than the highest dps because the dps split the damage you math wiz.

 

For example you have 3 dps attack one marauder with 30k hp. the healer heals for 15k before he dies. If the damage is spread evenly each dps will only get 15k damage while the healer gets 15k heals. But the overall damage done was 45k. And if you throw in garbage like undying rage then the healer might get another 30k in heals but the end result will still be another 30k in damage. So the healer will have 45k in heals but the total damage dealt will be 75k. Of course if you split it into 3 its 25k each. So yeah in this example it may seem like heals is godly when you compare 1 v 1 but when you take the total it's not anywhere near 2:1.

Edited August 30, 2013 by sithBracer

[ErikGW]

That doesn't even make sense. How can you heal when there is no damage? People stepping into the fire more often than they should? If you are comparing 2 healers to 5 dps then yeah chances are one of those healers might get a higher healing number than the highest dps because the dps split the damage you math wiz.

 

For example you have 3 dps attack one marauder with 30k hp. the healer heals for 15k before he dies. If the damage is spread evenly each dps will only get 15k damage while the healer gets 15k heals. But the overall damage done was 45k. And if you throw in garbage like undying rage then the healer might get another 30k in heals but the end result will still be another 30k in damage. So the healer will have 45k in heals but the total damage dealt will be 75k. Of course if you split it into 3 its 25k each. So yeah in this example it may seem like heals is godly when you compare 1 v 1 but when you take the total it's not anywhere near 2:1.

 

But but but... i suck and cant kill healers so they must be too strong!!!!

 

:-)

[Aetideus]

Make smash not auto crit.

 

- Reduce the base damage amount of Smash, effectively the stacking and autocrit.

- Change the Shield/ Crit system allowing shield chance on autocrit.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Aetideus

[L-RANDLE]

That doesn't even make sense. How can you heal when there is no damage? People stepping into the fire more often than they should? If you are comparing 2 healers to 5 dps then yeah chances are one of those healers might get a higher healing number than the highest dps because the dps split the damage you math wiz.

 

For example you have 3 dps attack one marauder with 30k hp. the healer heals for 15k before he dies. If the damage is spread evenly each dps will only get 15k damage while the healer gets 15k heals. But the overall damage done was 45k. And if you throw in garbage like undying rage then the healer might get another 30k in heals but the end result will still be another 30k in damage. So the healer will have 45k in heals but the total damage dealt will be 75k. Of course if you split it into 3 its 25k each. So yeah in this example it may seem like heals is godly when you compare 1 v 1 but when you take the total it's not anywhere near 2:1.

 

How does it not make sense? If enemy DPS sucks, yes, you can't heal. How bad is enemy DPS in high-level games? If you are not getting peels, yes maybe you won't hit a mildo, but who doesn't get peels in high level games?

 

The truth is it doesn't matter how good enemy DPS is.. If you are getting the proper peels, along with average tank guard, hitting a mildo is EZMODE. This happens when skilled players play other skilled players. Why do you think there were so many stalemates?

 

 

I'll wait, but understand in PvP, this shouldn't even be a debate. DPS should ALWAYS be greater. If you want to increasese survivability, or tools, fine, but heal output per toon is WAY too high for PvP esp in 8v8..

[L-RANDLE]

But but but... i suck and cant kill healers so they must be too strong!!!!

 

:-)

 

Try killing a healer with a DPS Sage and get back to me...

 

Omg Smash makes EZMODE healing huuurrd...

[sithBracer]

How does it not make sense? If enemy DPS sucks, yes, you can't heal. How bad is enemy DPS in high-level games? If you are not getting peels, yes maybe you won't hit a mildo, but who doesn't get peels in high level games?

 

The truth is it doesn't matter how good enemy DPS is.. If you are getting the proper peels, along with average tank guard, hitting a mildo is EZMODE. This happens when skilled players play other skilled players. Why do you think there were so many stalemates?

 

 

I'll wait, but understand in PvP, this shouldn't even be a debate. DPS should ALWAYS be greater. If you want to increasese survivability, or tools, fine, but heal output per toon is WAY too high for PvP esp in 8v8..

 

I'm not talking about hitting 1M, I'm talking about your 2:1 logic. If you are referring to total heals being 2:1 over total dps that doesn't make sense because you can't have heals without damage (unless you are cooking the books with consumption/undying rage or stepping into fire more often than you should and even then it should not be 2:1). If you are talking about highest healer vs highest dps I already explained that is usually a result of damage being split among dps. I even gave an example.

 

As for the statemates question you answered it yourself. It's because of skilled players playing against skilled players. Tanks/dps taunt and decrease damage by 30%, people mezz properly and don't break it, tanks switch guard properly, dps focus target and protect the healer, and yes healers heal. It's a team effort that brings about stalemates, not one or two healers. If you are complaining about not being able to kill your complaint should be dps being allowed to taunt more than healers just doing their job (that's the reason I like jugg smashers more than marauder smashers btw).

 

I'm sorry but I really don't understand your QQ

[Heal-To-Full]

Total healed will always be lower than total damage. That's obvious and not related to the issue.

 

The issue is that people get healed so quickly they can't even be killed. It's because it only takes just 3 healers to completely zero all damage from the enemy team.

 

Worse, there have been matches where I didn't even get to use my medpacs - even on toons that get free reusables - despite literally smashing into the midst of the damage. It was just so easy for our healers to completely negate any damage that everyone stayed around 90%.

Edited August 30, 2013 by B-Dick

[Ottoattack]

1. turn most of its damage into a DOT, like what they did to TD.

2. smash puts down a ground AoE similar to the Jedi NPCs for Poisonous Strategy mission on Ilum

3. take away the auto crit.

4. diminished return for power.

 

And no one would play rage ever again. This does not balance anything.

 

Smash juggs do about 8% more damage per smash but no one thinks they are OP. Why? Cuz they do not have insane survivability marauder have. There is your problem. If marauder survivability is toned down to a reasonable stats, smash would not be a huge issue it is now.

[sithBracer]

Try killing a healer with a DPS Sage and get back to me...

 

The sage has his own problems but is not the fault of the healer. The sage's biggest problems are his squishiness and the fact that his attacks can easily be interrupted. This issue has been brought to bioware's attention, and their answer started a meme you might have heard of.

 

Once again this is not the healers fault. A free casting sage can do A LOT of damage, and got highest damage in a game of huttball for our team btw (and she wasn't even that well geared, 2500 wp, 2400 end, and like 1900 expertise).

[smellmop]

simple way to balance it would be to either take away the autocrit all together (only a couple other autocrit abilities/trees in the game and they do 20-40% less damage and are single target) or at least make it autocrit on just the target that was leaped to (apply a debuff to the target that was leaped to)

 

the removal of autocrit would fix the imbalance in gearing....smash/sweepers can gear power surge only and disregard the crit stat altogether.

 

One could argue that just changing the base damage and leaving autocrit...but then I think you completely neuter this spec....they are pretty much a one trick pony.

[Laforet]

And no one would play rage ever again.

 

Balance achieved unplug from matrix.

[sithBracer]

Total healed will always be lower than total damage. That's obvious and not related to the issue.

 

The issue is that people get healed so quickly they can't even be killed. It's because it only takes just 3 healers to completely zero all damage from the enemy team.

 

Worse, there have been matches where I didn't even get to use my medpacs - even on toons that get free reusables - despite literally smashing into the midst of the damage. It was just so easy for our healers to completely negate any damage that everyone stayed around 90%.

 

It kinda sounds like you are scapegoating the healers for this when the problem is that the other team is just not that good (like the one in the video you showed me). I've had matches like that and yeah it was very easy, half the time I even ran around dpsing and still kept everyone alive.

 

On the other hand I had a lot of matches that were complete nightmares. Imagine everywhere you go someone force charges you, 2 or 3 people attacking you at the same time, rooting, mezzing, stunning one right after another, the entire time you are cursing the guy who made resolve so crappy. Your DC and ("overpowered") surgical probe barely keeping you alive through the DoTs and fire from behind while you are desperately trying to LoS their damage. They slow you faster than you can cleanse yourself, you want to stealth out, but you keep getting new DoT every second so you just roll away wasting energy and finally when you think you are dead you thank god the other healer felt your pain and helped heal you. You finally think it's safe and continue healing the others but guess what ... it's not safe because someone just called out "east 4" and you realize it only seemed safe because there were only 4 of them left. You try to head over to east to help out but guess what? you will never guess ... that's right another leaper followed by a merc shooting missiles at you. Root, stem, mezz you don't even know anymore all you know is your hp is gone while your buttons didn't do anything and your wonderful resolve is finally full while you are in the penalty box. Maybe they hate me on principle but this is what I have to go through every time I face a pub guilds A team, EVERY day, different guild same thing. And you guys think healing ops are overpowered?

 

I wish I had matches like the one in your video.

[L-RANDLE]

The sage has his own problems but is not the fault of the healer. The sage's biggest problems are his squishiness and the fact that his attacks can easily be interrupted. This issue has been brought to bioware's attention, and their answer started a meme you might have heard of.

 

Once again this is not the healers fault. A free casting sage can do A LOT of damage, and got highest damage in a game of huttball for our team btw (and she wasn't even that well geared, 2500 wp, 2400 end, and like 1900 expertise).

 

Do you play a DPS Sage? DPS Mando?Balanced Shadow?

 

Lol its fluff damage, which is easily outhealed by all heal specs. In the whole roshambo balance logic ALL DPS should be able to take down a healer but we all know that ain't true.

 

I'm not blaming healers, I blame BW for the ninja 5% buff (when they removed the DR on EXP), nerfing crit (increasing tank/guard uptime), and giving all heal specs immunity on some level. You got your buff to counter smash, so who is the one crying here?

[sithBracer]

Do you play a DPS Sage? DPS Mando?Balanced Shadow?

 

Lol its fluff damage, which is easily outhealed by all heal specs. In the whole roshambo balance logic ALL DPS should be able to take down a healer but we all know that ain't true.

 

I'm not blaming healers, I blame BW for the ninja 5% buff (when they removed the DR on EXP), nerfing crit (increasing tank/guard uptime), and giving all heal specs immunity on some level. You got your buff to counter smash, so who is the one crying here?

 

I have a sorc healer (sometimes I dps for fun), am able to kill scoundrel healers with help from one other person after we marked him. I don't understand why you think that ALL dps should be able to kill ALL healers.

 

A shadow was going to be my next [pvp exclusive] character and I studied a few of wakalords videos before starting out (then they introduced arena's so I went back to my jugg waiting to see what would happen) and for some reason he has absolutely no problem killing ... anyone, including op healers. Hmm maybe shadows are overpowered or maybe he just took some time to master the class?

 

And when did I actually cry about anything? I never said anything against smashers in this thread. You came in here and basically just said "haha I just beat smashers you all need to l2p" and then you said "smashing is fine healing is the problem" and I challenged you on that statement. You then made some weird 2:1 healing vs damage comparisons, and now you are complaining about sorc/sage (and apparently commando and shadow) dps not being able to kill a healer 1 v 1, and I'm the one who is crying?

 

I watched a few streams of every class you just described kill a healer (even op healers), I've killed scoundrel healers myself and I as an op healer have been killed. I don't understand what your QQ is.

[Helig]

As we all know smash is fine against a single target but in warzones the damage it pulls overall is just not fair (why i play the spec instead of VG and why wouldn't I) so here is a fix idea i had while playing and wondering how it could be controlled better without taking the damage that the jug or mara wants to be doing to his respective target.

 

Mechanic, Smash now knocks back all surround players not effected by force leap's root effect or force crush 3 meters before immediately producing an after shock wave that deals the damage.

 

This would still make smashing a group possible but harder to do damage to all of the warrior would need to exploit situational opportunities and players would have to balled up tighter to be damaged. As a fair trade off the knock back would give the warrior some defense from other warriors or bubble stuns and such even reveal stealthers and still break other CCs. and naturally anyone fully resolved, entrenched, has hydros up wont be knocked out of the damage radius so a clever warrior might still be able to grab those massive points.

 

Anyway that's my only real constructive input i wanted to throw in while the pvp patch is being developed hopefully i kept it short enough

Not a bad idea. Fully-stacked Smash could act as a knockback. Simple, elegant, punishes smash-stacking, provides utility.

[madtycoon]

Make smash not auto crit.

 

Not sure why people want to take away smash's auto crit. I mean thundering blast has an auto crit. But you know, its a long cast and requires a dot to be up which can be removed and doesn't hit nearly as hard... wait... where was I going with this?

 

Oh yeah.

Leave smash alone...

[ErikGW]

Not a bad idea. Fully-stacked Smash could act as a knockback. Simple, elegant, punishes smash-stacking, provides utility.

 

We have enough glitchy mechanics already :-)

 

So many people will get stuck in walls with that mechanic.