Proposed Dev Juggernaut Questions *Not Final*

[Luckygunslinger]

So, out of all 3 Questions put to the start of this thread. Are any one of them 100% perfect and are definitely going to BW?

[ArenCordial]

I agree, I think that was the idea behind the rage cost. The best solution would be to turn the ability into a flat rage free threat dump in its base form. Deafening Defense would stay as it is, and From Passion in the rage tree would provide a healing effect. No tank would use it then, as it would just be a threat dump without the skills from high up in the dps trees.

 

I would hope they come to the same conclusion, the rage cost is a wonky way of deterring tanks from using it, and it unfairly punishes dps juggernauts for using it as a threat dump or a defensive cooldown.

 

Marb, I think you're brilliant.

 

Force camouflage acts as both threat dump and defensive cooldown as well, as long as you keep it up.

 

I can't believe I forgot about Camo, considering I have a Sent. I'll edit the question. Thanks!

 

So, out of all 3 Questions put to the start of this thread. Are any one of them 100% perfect and are definitely going to BW?

 

Well I'm not the rep but if I had to say I think for the most part, the General Question is probably done. The PvP question seems to be close. The PvE question, well Marb and KD brought up a good point on how they'd most likely answer that so I'm not so sure there.

Edited August 28, 2013 by ArenCordial

[paowee]

I agree with

The only big issue I see is that in PvE, Enraged Defense is simply useless in all specs. It isn't strong because after the initial (4 rage cost) tick threat should be back on the tank and the rest is wasted, if a boss does hit us the heal will do absolutely nothing to relieve pressure off of healers, using it absolutely rage-starves us. Add to that that a simple Guard usually will prevent us from pulling (even if it would be better served on a different DPS) and that the only reason most Vengeance DPS spec into it is that Seething Hatred is worthless in PvE encounters since the fights are invariably longer than the CD of either Saber Throw or Force Charge and its absolute worthlessness just grows exponentially. I can't speak to PvP but that is PvE.

 

and

 

 

Quote: Originally Posted by lMarlfoxl View Post

PvE

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE.

~paragraph break

With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content. ~I'm not sure if this sentence makes this question sound a bit dramatic, even if it's true.

 

Question: Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?~I'm expecting them to say that "juggernauts are meeting dps milestones using our internal tests". Even if utility were addressed for us, we would still be in a position of redundancy due to being eclipsed by marauder and sniper dps. Are we expressing a concern with our utility, or a concern with our dps, or both?

 

Marb's comments on Question #2 PVE http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=675350

particularly ~I'm expecting them to say that "juggernauts are meeting dps milestones using our internal tests". Even if utility were addressed for us, we would still be in a position of redundancy due to being eclipsed by marauder and sniper dps. Are we expressing a concern with our utility, or a concern with our dps, or both? The question

 

Question: Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role? leaves a lot to be desired imo.

 

Some thoughts regarding Juggernaut PVE DPS. If only according to the DPS leaderboards in these forums (played by "hardcore" and dedicated players), Juggernaut PVE DPS is

 

1.Loufucai - Juggernaut - Vengeance - 4/36/6 - 3039.94

2. Vepres - Guardian - Vigilance - 4/36/6 - 3031

3. Kishekzun - Guardian - Vigilance - 4/36/6 - 3029.73

Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/396443/tim...0/Damage+Dealt

4. Álec - Guardian - Vigilance - 4/36/6 - 2985.18

5. Arrow's - Juggernaut - Vengeance - 4/36/6 - 2942.98

 

compared to Snipers and and Mercs

1. Nithnuro - Sniper - Marksman 36/3/7 - 3265.68

2. Evrydayimsmggln - Gunslinger - Hybrid 5/18/23 - 3238.05

3. Tianna - Sniper - Marksman - 36/3/7 - 3229.16

4. Red'october - Gunslinger - Hybrid 5/18/23 - 3207.38

5. Alishee - Sniper - Marksman - 36/3/7 - 3192.26

 

Commando/Mercenary

1. Pizza'dah'hutt - Mercenary Arsenal - 6/36/4 - 3179.33

2. Healingbot - Mercenary - Arsenal - 6/36/4 - 3078.65

3. Knopik - Mercenary - Arsenal - 6/36/4 3072.53

4. Faddey - Mercenary - Arsenal 6/36/4 - 3034

5. Fascinate - Mercenary - Arsenal 6/36/4 - 2971.45 .

 

My question is what exactly are the Juggernauts trying to find out and why are you guys asking PVE Question #2? If only according to these parses above, Juggernaut DPS are not far behind another "hybrid" class and a "pure dps" class. I compared Juggernauts to Snipers because both have armor pen debuff. Perhaps an even better comparison tho would be for Mercs since they also have an armor pen debuff and do not have any HP %ge based ability.

 

Back to the question.. Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role? if we look at it and as marb said, we can already predict the answer and i think that is a sign of a question that will not get any more useful information other than "yes."

 

edit: i'm browsing the jugg forums for the community questions discussion for PVE and can't find it. :|

Edited August 28, 2013 by paowee

[paowee]

Dummy parses don't tell the whole story, because they do not account for raid mechanics. There isn't a single end-game fight where we get to just go to town like we do on a dummy. Mercs and Sorcs are both ranged classes, which are not punished at all in raids, whereas Juggernauts are a melee class and have to deal with the majority of raid mechanics; and this is only compounded when there are other melee in the group for fights where stacking is bad.

 

The problem with using a raid as a means to balance DPS is even more problematic though. Since you will never have the same raid with the same mechanics, the only way to say DPS is balanced is by comparing them single target. they may intend for one class to do less dps than another class and that is their intention for that class by design (e.g. we wont make sorcs do more DPS than snipers or marauders. no explanation. period. final.)

 

Different classes will perform differently in raids and other than a single target parse, there really is no way to balance DPS using raid scenarios because each person will fare differently depending on individual skill. in this case the the only story to tell is the one we get from single target dummy parses.

 

note: i understand the dummy never goes below 30% hp and that has always been a cause for players to question BW. (e.g. BW saying Sin DPS is fine because the dummy does not take into account sub 30% hp and armor pen debuff that sins lack. The highest ever sin madness dps is 2700 DPS compared to juggernaut's 3000 and Snipers 3200. I seriously doubt that DPS gap will be closed even when the sin gets to execute range...)

 

Taking from someone's post on the 2nd page of this thread.

 

Venegance

- sustained dps

- dot oriented

- higher dps than rage single target

 

Rage

- burst dps

- aoe oriented

- better burst than vengeance but lesser single target sustained

 

Immortal

- (i havent spent a lot of time tanking on my jugg recently but i think its reasonable to say that juggernauts are the most desireable pve tanks at current >_>)

 

Back to the PVE question... what exactly does everyone need and want to know about PVE Juggs?

Edited August 28, 2013 by paowee

[ArenCordial]

Here's my thoughts on this matter.

 

1.) However appropriate I don't think we should use the word sub-par but rather a sugar coated synonym. If were championing for changes I don't know if we really want to get the designers backs up. You make someone overly defensive and not much will come from it.

 

2.) Dummy Parses unfortunately don't mean much as ssfish pointed out. Ranged are still beating us on zero movement fights like a dummy boss. Throw in the fun of melee and I think our raid numbers will perform poorer than dummy parses would indicate. BW has said that Veng is optimal for dummy parsing and its getting beat handily in optimal conditions for it by classes who are in supposedly suboptimal conditions.

 

Back to the question.. Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role? if we look at it and as marb said, we can already predict the answer and i think that is a sign of a question that will not get any more useful information other than "yes."

 

3.) Honestly I think part of it stems from we want developer confirmation of what we all know anyway. Multirole utility and dps is meant to be beneath that of single role. (However flawed that logic may be) BioWare confirms it and we rage for all the good it will do us. If they say otherwise then the numbers don't really show it and they've got a lot of work to do. Personally I think they will just say they are trying to target dps being 5% within each other. They don't want 6/8 dps classes suddenly raging about how we all need to reroll so I doubt they will confirm our suspicions.

 

If we want to bring our dps up more into line then Veng needs more consistency and we could use an offensive cooldown to narrow the gap.

Edited August 28, 2013 by ArenCordial

[ssfish]

I wrote this up on the Guardian forums the other day, which expresses my biggest PvE concern with Jugg/Guardian:

 

 

Right now, Vigilance spec is in a unique place. On one hand, we are a DoT-class. Our primary abilities all apply burns. Those burns account for between 18% and 22% of our total damage, meaning without them running their full course on a target, we lose significant DPS.

 

On the other hand, we have several hard hitting abilities in Overhead Slash (tops out around 7k in current tier gear), Blade Storm (tops out around 5.5k in current tier gear), Master Strike (tops out at around 9k on the third tick, or 17k over the full 3 seconds with 3 crits), and Dispatch (7.5k). With that many hard hitting abilities that have the potential to be chained together one after the next, we look like a burst damage class.

 

However, when RNG doesn't favor us with crits and Rampage procs, that line of abilities quickly becomes hashed. On a fight like Styrak or Olok, we are unable to get even close to full uptime on our bleeds, removing a good chunk of our damage. On a fight like the Cartel Warlords (Sunder phase) where there is a lot of movement, or a fight like Dash'roode where there are fairly regular knockbacks, we are unable to run through our full rotation of damage abilities, namely Master Strike, which then causes adjustments to be made to the rotation, which leads to wasted Rampage procs, which continues on down to sub-par DPS.

 

In general, there are few fights that allow us to use our full arsenal of abilities as they should be used. That means inefficiency and lost DPS. On a personal level, I like the uniqueness of Vigilance in that it is somewhere in between. From the perspective of an end-game raider trying to be as competitive as possible, I dislike the inconsistency that comes along with that in Vigilance.

 

Basically, we need both sides of the coin to land heads up in order for us to have the chance to compete for a raid spot*. Under ideal circumstances, once you factor in the sub-30% Dispatches, our overall DPS is very nearly on par with the top-tier classes. The problem is two-fold. One: We vary rarely encounter fights that have those "ideal circumstances," and Two: Even when we do have those "ideal circumstances," we have to pray to the dice gods that we get good rolls for Rampage procs.

 

 

Emphasis added for Boarder's sake. Oh, and due to fight mechanics in raids, Rage actually tends to win in the Single Target DPS.

Edited August 28, 2013 by ssfish

[paowee]

3.) Honestly I think part of it stems from we want developer confirmation of what we all know anyway. Multirole utility and dps is meant to be beneath that of single role. (However flawed that logic maybe) BioWare confirms it and we rage for all the good it will do us. If they otherwise then the numbers don't really show it and they've got a lot of work to do. Personally I think they will just say they are trying to target dps being 5% within each other and Snipers/Maras being the top of the 5%. They don't 6/8 dps classes suddenly raging about how we all need to reroll.

 

If we want to bring our dps up more into line then Veng needs more consistency and we could use an offensive cooldown to narrow the gap.

 

(However flawed that logic maybe)

Yeah its just one of those, take it or leave it scenarios i'd think. "If you're not happy with our class philosophy then... well nothing we can do about that!" lol..

 

Let's home in on PVE Vengeance DPS. Let's leave Rage out of the question (>_< it already has too much attention from the PVPers).

 

Vengeance DPS (if only basing on single target is , only a little bit behind maras and snipers. it is closer to what mercs can put out on the dummy).

 

These are the FACTS.

 

The big problem is translating this single target DPS potential in an ACTUAL RAID SETTING. That is the biggest problem i see with Vengeance Juggernauts for the reasons people have already stated in this thread.

 

1) Melee restriction

2) DoT oriented

3) Rotation / specific abiltiies and how they interact

 

#1 Melee restriction - i dont think there is much we can say or talk about this. Melee class WILL have to deal with the restriction of their class type. In current tier of operations there is no single boss fight that requires massive mobility. This means most DPS classes have an opportunity to sit down and do their rotation. This is the advantage of rolling a ranged class. Melees will have the advantage in mobile boss fights that required DPS to move constantly (thus preventing classes from chanelling or casting or turreting) but there are not a lot of fights like these in the game.

 

#2 DoT oriented - the trend of BW seems to be that DoT DPS = greater sustained DPS than burst. That is their choice by design and there is nothing we can do about it.

 

#3 Rotation and specific abilities- i think this is where Juggs can have a satisfying and good answer from. Remember we know that Juggernaut DPS is not that far behind other classes. The problem is and as people already stated, the ABILITY to convert this DPS potential into actual DPS in a raid SETTING.

 

Some sample questions.. (really really rough drafts)

 

Enraged Defense seems counterintuitive. A threat dump is an ability that DPS classes use in order to continue doing their job without wiping the raid. As it is right now, Enraged Defense is actually an ability that does the exact opposite since it saps the player of resources over time IN ADDITION to the fact that it also costs resources to activate in the first place. Looking at the Vengeance and Rage tree we can also see that Enraged Defense is even talented in (Deafening Defense) and Through Passion and both serve little to no practical DPS applications in a raid setting. What is the class design/philosophy/rationale behind Enraged Defense and their relation to the talents the buff it in both Vengeance and the Rage tree? At current the talents seem to be neither oriented towards PVP or PVE (reduced energy cost, increased passive damage reduction and reduced cooldown on intimidating roar). What is your rationale for giving a DPS Juggernaut a PVE threat dump ability (and its corresponding that talents) that diminishes the Juggernauts abiltiy to do its maximum DPS?

 

anyway thats it for now.. time to get off work!

Edited August 29, 2013 by paowee

[ArenCordial]

I wrote this up on the Guardian forums the other day, which expresses my biggest PvE concern with Jugg/Guardian:

 

Honest question. Do you think this problem isn't addressed properly in the current Vengeance question?

 

Some changes were made to the original question I wasn't totally in love with by making some of the movement issues sound more like they were solely PvP related when it affects both realms of play. I don't know if that was the intent but that's how I took it.

[ArenCordial]

 

#1 Melee restriction - i dont think there is much we can say or talk about this. Melee class WILL have to deal with the restriction of their class type. In current tier of operations there is no single boss fight that requires massive mobility. This means most DPS classes have an opportunity to sit down and do their rotation. This is the advantage of rolling a ranged class. Melees will have the advantage in mobile boss fights that required DPS to move constantly (thus preventing classes from chanelling or casting or turreting) but there are not a lot of fights like these in the game.

 

This is not the case with Vengeance. Because when we are using our top ability we're a melee turret. If the boss moves no problem as ranged. You don't move, don't need to change rotation, you keep performing. I get the choice b/w breaking channel to stay in melee or keep it going and then chasing. Chasing isn't uptime so 0 DPS or at best our small bleeds.

 

DG after Heirad drops can be pain, we have to chase Ciphas and Kel'sara. Whats the worst that happens to ranged? You move on a circle being dropped or doom? We got that + more. If it was during a damage while channeling ability, no worries. Most Ranged have good spammable abilities, and Unload/Cull/Series of Shots will be up for the next rotation. We don't and we have to pray luck favors us with a Rampage Proc or it will be a while before we see our #1 ability. Hope Impale and Shatter aren't on CD.

 

Sunder? Total PiTA as Veng. I've given up and roll Rage that fight.

 

That's the problem when we are at our best we're a turret with no range and no mobility.

Edited August 29, 2013 by ArenCordial

[paowee]

This is not the case with Vengeance. Because when we are using our top ability we're a melee turret. If the boss moves no problem as ranged. You don't move, don't need to change rotation, you keep performing. I get the choice b/w breaking channel to stay in melee or keep it going and then chasing. Chasing isn't uptime so 0 DPS or at best our small bleeds.

 

DG after Heirad drops can be pain, we have to chase Ciphas and Kel'sara. Whats the worst that happens to ranged? You move on a circle being dropped or doom? We got that + more. If it was during a damage while channeling ability, no worries. Most Ranged have good spammable abilities, and Unload/Cull/Series of Shots will be up for the next rotation. We don't and we have to pray luck favors us with a Rampage Proc or it will be a while before we see our #1 ability. Hope Impale and Shatter aren't on CD.

 

Sunder? Total PiTA as Veng. I've given up and roll Rage that fight.

 

That's the problem when we are at our best we're a turret with no range and no mobility.

 

I guess we can argue about clear definitions between melee and range turrets but that was only a minor point i was trying to make in that post. the main one would be #3.

 

That's the problem when we are at our best we're a turret with no range and no mobility.

I guess but do you really want to ask BW a qusetion asking if they could please give us some range or some extra mobility? What if, and most likely than not, they say "no. it is not our class design for juggs." that question would be a waste :|

 

In 1.7 a big hindrance to doing the highest potential DPS you can do as Vengeance (on the ops dummy) is being rage starved. In a raid setting you hardly get rage starved because of aoe damage giving you extra rage. on the training dummy Mauull for example resorts to running out and using charge for the extra rage in order for him to keep scream, impale and shatter up as soon as they come off cooldown. that was why his parses always had more # of hits for impale/scream and shatter compared to everybody else (he's a ~1900 i think iirc, parsing juggernaut back in 1.7).

 

Edited August 29, 2013 by paowee

[UndyingHadyn]

hehe.

 

 

 

guys...guys... How many final draft threads are we going to make? j/k

 

 

 

 

Man I tell ya, I really enjoyed reading that Uncle Ost guy's posts. He really knew what he was talking about.

 

At any rate, it is becoming apparent that they know, that WE know ...that jugs are in a really good place. Looking back at the suggestions we all have made, It is important to remember some facts. CONTEXT is everything. There is much more to juggernaut gameplay than raid parses. Let's not forget the many unique abilities we possess, that turn the tide of battle in our team's favor. Remember all of them and cherish them. We really don't need the developers to put our class under the knife, in some effort to appease us and everyone else.

 

If they refuse to make alterations, I'll actually be relieved. My jug rules, and part of me doesn't want anything to change.

[ArenCordial]

I guess but do you really want to ask BW a qusetion asking if they could please give us some range or some extra mobility? What if, and most likely than not, they say "no. it is not our class design for juggs." that question would be a waste :|

 

Ah ok this tells me much. You missed some of the previous discussion we've had on the Ravage mobility issues in other threads.

 

No clearly we don't want to be ranged that's ridiculous. We've had a couple ideas on how to reduce that but lets face it, we're not really here to tell BW what to do. And the General Question does touch on that a bit.

Edited August 29, 2013 by ArenCordial

[lMarlfoxl]

PvP

We the community believe that the most outstanding issue with the juggernaut dps tree's are their lack of adequate cooldowns with an emphasis on "Enraged Defense." In the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense" is arguably one of the best cooldowns for dps juggernauts. In the rage tree however it is almost useless when fighting 1v1 and incredibly useless when being focused by multiple enemies. A solution to the Rage Tree "Enraged Defense" would be to increase the amount of healing received by the skill or to make it similar to the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense." Also it will be extremely important to remove the resource cost of the skill and the resource cost while the skill is active in both trees. As it stands by using "Enraged Defense" for both trees you are inhibiting your ability to put out dps. We understand that in PvP scenarios rage juggernauts put out an incredible amount of pressure and damage, but the damage to survivability ratio is severely imbalanced. We also understand that juggernauts have the utility to taunt and mitigate damage to other players, but you can't taunt if you cannot survive.

 

Question: What solutions/thoughts does the combat development team have regarding the above issue?

 

I have read and understood the issues and concerns the community has with the PvP question. However when I have talked with multiple high-end pvp'ers on multiple servers the general consensus is that the question accurately covers the main issue with juggernaut dps. The PvE implications while being somewhat important, do not take precedence over the PvP issues of the class because this is the PvP question. The Immortal Tree is not mentioned because as it stand it is arguably the best tank in the game for PvP and PvE. No one is disputing that saber ward and reflect are good cooldowns, but as it stands the 3min cooldown for saber ward and 3 second reflect are not enough for the class.

 

 

PvE

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE. With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Question: Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

 

Does the community like the first PvE question? If so give it a +1

 

PvE

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE.

 

With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Question: Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

 

Does the community like the second PvE Question? If so give it a +1

 

General

Vengeance currently suffers from two distinctive problems which affect its performance in both PvP and PvE.

 

First is the dependency on the Rampage proc to refresh Ravage. Unlike many other specs, Vengeance can not refresh Ravage through ability spam, as both Impale and Shatter have significant cooldowns accompanied with a comparatively low proc chance of similar abilities (30%). Given the long 30 sec cooldown on Ravage, this creates great variance in damage performance when DPS and rage generation dip down due to a 'no proc' scenario.

 

Second is the fact that Ravage is a melee channel, and suffers from all the vulnerabilities that go with these types of abilities. Much of its damage can be avoided simply with movement (which leaves the Juggernaut outside of melee range) and it can be be shut down with mezzes, stuns, knockbacks, etc. This is a significant issue due to how little damage our filler abilities deal, leaving Vengeance at great risk of being shut down completely in group PvP environments after the initial Ravage (from unstoppable).

 

To be clear, the community enjoys Ravage and considers it the cornerstone of the spec.

 

Question: With this in mind, would the combat team consider making some changes to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in PvE and PvP?

 

The community seems to like the layout of this question a lot, so I will be leaving it as is.

 

Keep in mind the questions are due 8/30 so a quick answer will be necessary if the right questions are to be posted.

Edited August 29, 2013 by lMarlfoxl

[Treblt]

The PvP question is *********** sick and I love it! Edited August 29, 2013 by Treblt

[sithloardbob]

The pvp question is *********** amazing, dps juggs do need more survivability, and this would help a lot Edited August 29, 2013 by sithloardbob

[MrGrzecka]

Marlfox is da best jugg rep. he did not pay me to say this.

 

EDIT: Was payed to edit post

Edited August 29, 2013 by MrGrzecka

[Marb]

PvP

We the community believe that the most outstanding issue with the juggernaut dps tree's are their lack of adequate cooldowns with an emphasis on "Enraged Defense." In the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense" is arguably one of the best cooldowns for dps juggernauts. In the rage tree however it is almost useless when fighting 1v1 and incredibly useless when being focused by multiple enemies. A solution to the Rage Tree "Enraged Defense" would be to increase the amount of healing received by the skill or to make it similar to the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense." Also it will be extremely important to remove the resource cost of the skill and the resource cost while the skill is active in both trees. As it stands by using "Enraged Defense" for both trees you are inhibiting your ability to put out dps. We understand that in PvP scenarios rage juggernauts put out an incredible amount of pressure and damage, but the damage to survivability ratio is severely imbalanced. We also understand that juggernauts have the utility to taunt and mitigate damage to other players, but you can't taunt if you cannot survive.

 

Question: What solutions/thoughts does the combat development team have regarding the above issue?

 

I have read and understood the issues and concerns the community has with the PvP question. However when I have talked with multiple high-end pvp'ers on multiple servers the general consensus is that the question accurately covers the main issue with juggernaut dps. The PvE implications while being somewhat important, do not take precedence over the PvP issues of the class because this is the PvP question. The Immortal Tree is not mentioned because as it stand it is arguably the best tank in the game for PvP and PvE. No one is disputing that saber ward and reflect are good cooldowns, but as it stands the 3min cooldown for saber ward and 3 second reflect are not enough for the class.

This doesn't really work as a PvP question. The issue with the ability is that it shouldn't cost or consume rage.

 

Does the Jugg PvP community really feel that they need another defensive cooldown? The issue is that this question has the net result of being an indirect petition to buff rage survivability, a questionable move when rage Marauders are currently making a mockery of PvP balance. Improving the representation of Vengeance Juggs in PvP, in my mind, should be the biggest PvP priority. Tanks and smashers are already in a comparatively strong position, its only the middle tree that is under represented.

 

Enraged defense in its base form is arguably meant to be a threat drop. It's not really designed as a defensive cooldown in the traditional sense, it only becomes one with deafening defense (which provides vengeance with damage reduction while cc'd, like all the other middle trees of melee dps ac's).

PvE

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE.

 

With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Question: Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

Back onto the topic of PvE, paowee's comments have really given light to our biggest issue, and that issue is the Vengeance spec. Its not about utility, its not about damage, it's about Vengeance being at odds with the advantages of being a melee dps spec, and its impractical usability in operations.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Marb

[Riivan]

Only thing I would comment on further is, do we really need the 2 or 3 lead in paragraphs to each question?

 

I understand the desire to give the reasoning for the question, but I think being succinct is better. I'd say try to pare it down a bit to just the vital information. A 3-4 sentence paragraph at most.

[sithloardbob]

This doesn't really work as a PvP question. The issue with the ability is that it shouldn't cost or consume rage.

 

Does the Jugg PvP community really feel that they need another defensive cooldown? The issue is that this question has the net result of being an indirect petition to buff rage survivability, a questionable move when rage Marauders are currently making a mockery of PvP balance. Improving the representation of Vengeance Juggs in PvP, in my mind, should be the biggest PvP priority. Tanks and smashers are already in a comparatively strong position, its only the middle tree that is under represented.

 

Enraged defense in its base form is arguably meant to be a threat drop. It's not really designed as a defensive cooldown in the traditional sense, it only becomes one with deafening defense (which provides vengeance with damage reduction while cc'd, like all the other middle trees of melee dps ac's).

[/i][/b]

 

Enraged defense is possible one of the worst defensive cool downs in the game.....BOTH DPS jugg specs need to a little more survivability, they have no place in competitive pvp because of how squishie they are, also jugg dps Enraged defense needs a buff.... it really sucks for rage spec

[Marb]

Enraged defense is possible one of the worst defensive cool downs in the game.....BOTH DPS jugg specs need to a little more survivability, they have no place in competitive pvp because of how squishie they are, also jugg dps Enraged defense needs a buff.... it really sucks for rage spec

 

Its not really a defensive cooldown, its a threat drop with a bad implementation (rage consumption) to discourage tanks in PvE from using it. It's only misunderstood as a defensive cooldown due to how Veng's cc damage reduction is linked to its use (a hallmark of middle tree melee dps specs).

 

Any buff to enraged defense would really be about improving the surviability of rage and immortal in PvP, both of which don't warrant that. Rage's PvP threat is largely countered by its simple minded nature, and beyond saber ward and saber reflect, will fold under heavy focus fire. That shouldn't be seen as an issue with the spec, the issue is with rage Marauders having too much survivability, not rage Juggs having too little. Immortal juggs are unrivaled PvP tanks at present and definitely don't need more survivability either.

 

I don't think you pvp Juggs are going to get the results you desire from putting all your eggs in the enraged defense basket.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Marb

[sithloardbob]

Its not really a defensive cooldown, its a threat drop with a bad implementation (rage consumption) to discourage tanks in PvE from using it. It's only misunderstood as a defensive cooldown due to how Veng's cc damage reduction is linked to its use (a hallmark of middle tree melee dps specs).

 

Any buff to enraged defense would really be about improving the surviability of rage and immortal in PvP, both of which don't warrant that. Rage's PvP threat is largely countered by its simple minded nature, and beyond saber ward and saber reflect, will fold under heavy focus fire. That shouldn't be seen as an issue with the spec, the issue is with rage Marauders having too much survivability, not rage Juggs having too little. Immortal juggs are unrivaled PvP tanks at present and definitely don't need more survivability either.

 

I don't think you pvp Juggs are going to get the results you desire from putting all your eggs in the enraged defense basket.

 

 

Do you even pvp!? because i dont think you have ever seen rateds/ you prolly do a few regs here and there but nothing too serious, Enraged defense as a rage jugg is almost usless, jugg dps is one of the squishest in the game... and we arent comparing mara's with juggs, just trying to get juggs a little bit more survivability when it comes to DPS PVP specs not TANK and the point of buffing enraged defense is to give rage juggs some use in pvp lol...

Edited August 29, 2013 by sithloardbob

[Marb]

Do you even pvp!? because i dont think you have ever seen rateds/ you prolly do a few regs here and there but nothing too serious, Enraged defense as a rage jugg is almost usless, jugg dps is one of the squishest in the game... and we arent comparing mara's with juggs, just trying to get juggs a little bit more survivability when it comes to DPS PVP specs not TANK and the point of buffing enraged defense is to give rage juggs some use in pvp lol...

 

Take a step back and read what you wrote

 

Rage needs better survivability is all I'm seeing from this. Is rage survivability the number 1 top priority issue with Juggs in PvP atm? Do dps pt's, sins, sorcs and operatives have that much better survability that we need to be brought up to their level?

 

Snipers and Marauders being overpowered shouldn't be the catalyst for changes like this.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Marb

[Ichikai]

In case you really need something the devs can't dismiss as working as intended..

 

This is not working as intended

 

I know immortal jugs don't have many things to complain about, but this is definitely one.

 

Anyhow, keep up the good work here. Looking forward to the next iteration of a BW classic like "heal to full".

[Kaedusz]

There are a couple things ,some people need to remember once and for all.

 

Rage Juggernaut is terrible when compared to Rage Marauder.It is Rage Marauders that contribute to the reputation this specs has infinitely more than Juggernauts.

 

Vengeance PvP is bad and not where it should be.Buffs are needed.Both dps and survivability wise.

 

Not all Juggernauts are tanks and the experience is completely different.Tanks are fine and should be left alone or nerfed.Not all Juggernauts want to be tanks,just as not all Operatives want to be healers,et cetera.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Marb]

There are a couple things ,some people need to remember once and for all.

 

Rage Juggernaut is terrible when compared to Rage Marauder.It is Rage Marauders that contribute to the reputation this specs has infinitely more than Juggernauts.

 

Vengeance PvP is bad and not where it should be.Buffs are needed.Both dps and survivability wise.

 

Not all Juggernauts are tanks and the experience is completely different.Tanks are fine and should be left alone or nerfed.

 

This.

 

This issues with rage juggs are only issues when drawing comparisons with rage Marauder.