Tendering My Resignation

[Ciridemarr]

All the best Kitru and thank you for your dedication for working toward getting our class better !

 

*bows deeply*

[MillionsKNives]

Yeah. I just read their answers and they, especially the Vanguard, answers seemed pretty thorough and IMO even handed. Players will always be biased towards their preferred spec, devs to overall balance, and getting to the point where one side or another can see the other's point--or understand they are asking for too much--is where the rubber meets the pavement. The dialogue would come from the rep's response to their response.

 

Thorough, or bullsh*t? Their whole execute phase excuse, which they've used twice now, is completely incorrect. They also cite the new 2.4 changes as though they solve everything and ignore the question in favor of simply saying "2.4 fixes it". That is despite the concerns I'm seeing that the changes to 2.4 still doesn't fix the Pyrotech tree.

 

Their responses, especially to the Sorcs, were very dismissive and arrogant. If they feel that things are balanced then they should give real answers, not complete bullsh*t like, "you can't parse execute phases on dummies so you can't compare", and "you can self-heal yourself to full, so you can't compare".

 

I don't even play the two classes that they gave responses to and I know it was a complete joke.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

Thorough, or bullsh*t? Their whole execute phase excuse, which they've used twice now, is completely incorrect. They also cite the new 2.4 changes as though they solve everything and ignore the question in favor of simply saying "2.4 fixes it". That is despite the concerns I'm seeing that the changes to 2.4 still doesn't fix the Pyrotech tree.

 

Their responses, especially to the Sorcs, were very dismissive and arrogant. If they feel that things are balanced then they should give real answers, not complete bullsh*t like, "you can't parse execute phases on dummies so you can't compare", and "you can self-heal yourself to full, so you can't compare".

 

I don't even play the two classes that they gave responses to and I know it was a complete joke.

 

I think the questions could have been more focused and not assumed that the devs already knew and agreed with the problems noted (ie, that the players had backed up their ideas in the questions rather than assuming they had read the other threads on the subject), but I do agree that their answers were too dismissive. Most don't think the 2.4 changes cut it for Vanguards and have numbers to go with that evaluation.

 

Devs need to see this more as a dialogue, although I guess I can't too surprised at how it's panned out from some of their past communication. But it is fair to put some blame on players, too. I like Kitru and had a lot of help with my Guardian thanks to him and some others, but I'm not sure what he was expecting when he took on the rep role. This dev team is fairly quiet and glacial with changes (and no dev team does everything their players ask of them), so assuming there was going to be more done between now and when Kitru accepted the role is bizarre to me. But who knows, he might have thought he could roll with things better at the start. I just hope the new rep is more willing to stick through things.

 

I did a lot of work with some class changes for Kheldians in City of Heroes (*sniff* I miss that game), and I didn't get all I wanted from the devs. But I stuck through it and still enjoyed the class. I hope any reps that choose to be reps can do the same.

[DaftVaduhhh]

Again guys, when you are physically exhausted, it is better to bow out. I don't claim to speak for Kitru, but for every effort any one of us was putting in he was probably putting in 3-10x as much.

 

He'd turned it into a part-time job and I don't imagine that's good for somebody's enjoyment of what is supposed to be a fairly light role. Enough with the calls of cowardice and enough sinking the boot in.

 

Has someone contacted KBN and the community team?

Edited August 26, 2013 by DaftVaduhhh

[Sarenne]

To the Shadow community, I've cancelled my subscription and, as such, will be quitting the game. I actually found another that interests me as much as TOR *used* to, which I didn't really expect...

 

Not difficult to imagine at this point, the game hasn't been *fun* for several months now. I've learned a lot from reading your posts Kitru, and thank you for all you've done for the shadow/assassin community. Your (vocal) passion for the game was the tipping factor for me in electing a class representative. I'm recalling a post about "willful ignorance", I imagine you remember it; there was a lot in it and everything you said rang true to me. I elected you believing you would "pull the plug" if you sensed this "discussion" was just another foot-dragging move on the part of BW (devs, mgmt, whatever).

 

I shared your frustration, I can only say at this point that I'm happy you are rid of it.

 

Blessings in all that you do Kitru. HAVE FUN!!!

[wadecounty]

I think the questions could have been more focused and not assumed that the devs already knew and agreed with the problems noted (ie, that the players had backed up their ideas in the questions rather than assuming they had read the other threads on the subject), but I do agree that their answers were too dismissive. Most don't think the 2.4 changes cut it for Vanguards and have numbers to go with that evaluation.

 

Devs need to see this more as a dialogue, although I guess I can't too surprised at how it's panned out from some of their past communication. But it is fair to put some blame on players, too. I like Kitru and had a lot of help with my Guardian thanks to him and some others, but I'm not sure what he was expecting when he took on the rep role. This dev team is fairly quiet and glacial with changes (and no dev team does everything their players ask of them), so assuming there was going to be more done between now and when Kitru accepted the role is bizarre to me. But who knows, he might have thought he could roll with things better at the start. I just hope the new rep is more willing to stick through things.

 

I did a lot of work with some class changes for Kheldians in City of Heroes (*sniff* I miss that game), and I didn't get all I wanted from the devs. But I stuck through it and still enjoyed the class. I hope any reps that choose to be reps can do the same.

 

Another thing to consider on why the sorc questions had such lackluster answers, was the lack of focus in the sorc questions. If you actually go back and read the sorc questions, they're based on either resource management, or being shut down in PvP... there is no PvE DPS question, so why are they going to give an answer related to PvE DPS? If you ask about PvP, then your ability to heal yourself absolutely is a justified response when discussing your classes utility (the sorc bubble is an amazing tool even in the hands of a DPS spec, for both himself and teammates).

 

This is something we're discussing on the Juggernaut board, how to frame specific questions like the Sentinel and Sniper class reps did, in order to get detailed and accurate answers.

 

Also, the Vanguard questions were actually answered better than I thought they would be, if you read the questions they were huge run-on sentences that looked like they were written by a 6 year-old.

[MillionsKNives]

Another thing to consider on why the sorc questions had such lackluster answers, was the lack of focus in the sorc questions. If you actually go back and read the sorc questions, they're based on either resource management, or being shut down in PvP... there is no PvE DPS question, so why are they going to give an answer related to PvE DPS? If you ask about PvP, then your ability to heal yourself absolutely is a justified response when discussing your classes utility (the sorc bubble is an amazing tool even in the hands of a DPS spec, for both himself and teammates).

 

This is something we're discussing on the Juggernaut board, how to frame specific questions like the Sentinel and Sniper class reps did, in order to get detailed and accurate answers.

 

Also, the Vanguard questions were actually answered better than I thought they would be, if you read the questions they were huge run-on sentences that looked like they were written by a 6 year-old.

 

In my opinion, it doesn't matter if the questions were written in crayon, it doesn't excuse the poor responses from the devs. They represent BioWare and are responding to an entire class, and more importantly the entire playerbase (whom pays attention to the forums anyway). If they were responding to an individual in a thread I would agree with you, but since they are not they should be held to a higher standard than to whom they are responding.

 

This is because even if the questions were poorly worded they represent the concerns of many players who feel they are valid, and as such they deserve a well written and thorough response to those concerns, not the flamebait response that they have trolled us with. They are supposed to be professionals.

Edited August 26, 2013 by MillionsKNives

[LoRdTyRANTz]

This is because even if the questions were poorly worded they represent the concerns of many players who feel they are valid, and as such they deserve a well written and thorough response to those concerns, not the flamebait response that they have trolled us with. They are supposed to be professionals.

 

The devs said they would answer questions and that is what they did. They never said class reps were designed so that class balance or changes could be made. I don't want 16 yr old boys and girls to be able to control class balance by whining to the devs. The fact is that the sorc and VG questions were complete utter ****. The devs, whom are not customer service reps btw, responded accordingly.

[Laforet]

The devs said they would answer questions and that is what they did. They never said class reps were designed so that class balance or changes could be made. I don't want 16 yr old boys and girls to be able to control class balance by whining to the devs. The fact is that the sorc and VG questions were complete utter ****. The devs, whom are not customer service reps btw, responded accordingly.

 

Smash asking for more damage and Gunslingers asking for an offensive CD seems way more ridiculous to me than any of the Sorc / Vanguard questions.

 

Way more actually.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Laforet

[MillionsKNives]

The devs said they would answer questions and that is what they did. They never said class reps were designed so that class balance or changes could be made. I don't want 16 yr old boys and girls to be able to control class balance by whining to the devs. The fact is that the sorc and VG questions were complete utter ****. The devs, whom are not customer service reps btw, responded accordingly.

 

I have multiple problems with your stance.

 

1) It doesn't matter what they say if what they do is useless. Why have the class representative if they don't bother listening or even replying in a useful manner? Might as well go back to them saying nothing if all they respond with is dismissal.

 

If they said they were going to give subs a gift, and then mail a pile of sh*t to each of us, would you defend them for doing only as they have said they would do? Overjoyed to smear it all over your face too, I'm sure.

 

2) No one is suggesting that the class reps should be able to change anything, but they didn't even consider the issues before coming back with dismissive responses. They need to give real, detailed reasons on why they don't agree, not the bullsh*t they tried to feed us. Some of it was outright, mathematically, untrue. Specifically the <30% excuse.

 

3) They are not responding to the representative they are responding to what they represent, which is a class' issues. If they can't take five minutes to actually figure out the issues they are trying to bring up, and will only respond to the question in front of them they shouldn't be responding at all.

 

4) They may not be cs reps, but the second their response gets posted in gold font on the dev tracker they are representatives of BioWare. They should act accordingly. Their responses were also posted by cs reps, and if they can't reformat it into something better, or take it back and demand that the dev rewrite it to better represent the company then they aren't doing their job either.

Edited August 26, 2013 by MillionsKNives

[LoRdTyRANTz]

Smash asking for more damage and Gunslingers asking for an offensive CD seems way more ridiculous to me than any of the Sorc / Vanguard questions.

 

Way more actually.

 

Actually for sens and slingers, each question focused on 1 problem either with their skill tree or comparing trees, or an ability. Asking a question about the usefulness of an ability, or comparing trees within the class are reasonable questions. Whining like a little kid comparing your class to others is completely childish. If you think there is a superior AC then go play it. All classes have a different feel and everyone has a class that works for them.

[LoRdTyRANTz]

1) It doesn't matter what they say if what they do is useless. Why have the class representative if they don't bother listening or even replying in a useful manner? Might as well go back to them saying nothing if all they respond with is dismissal.

 

If they said they were going to give subs a gift, and then mail a pile of sh*t to each of us, would you defend them for doing only as they have said they would do? Overjoyed to smear it all over your face too, I'm sure.

 

The devs said they are here to answer questions. They never said anything about using this to make class balance changes. Ask a question about gear optimization for a specific class or about logistics of testing. Point is ask them something that can be useful to help players out.

Edited August 26, 2013 by LoRdTyRANTz

[ScarletBlaze]

Just my two cents:

 

I have yet to understand why the shadow in the forums is being said that it is not that great. I have a level 55 shadow and I have not seen any problems in the way it plays in heroics or flashpoints and I have no problems with my guild taking my shadow in the flashpoints.

 

I also have a sage that is a healer. Both are fun but I have had to learn to play the class more so than I do my operative.

 

Is that a problem? No I just see it takes a little more understanding of the class to play it.

 

 

This is just my opiion.

 

 

As for Kitru hope you find what you are looking for.

[Altheran]

Just my two cents:

 

I have yet to understand why the shadow in the forums is being said that it is not that great. I have a level 55 shadow and I have not seen any problems in the way it plays in heroics or flashpoints and I have no problems with my guild taking my shadow in the flashpoints.

 

I also have a sage that is a healer. Both are fun but I have had to learn to play the class more so than I do my operative.

 

Is that a problem? No I just see it takes a little more understanding of the class to play it.

 

 

This is just my opiion.

Heroics and Flashpoints do not need intense performances to be cleared. Especially Heroics, where you don't even need to have particular roles.

 

Operations and especially hard and nightmare modes are on another level.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Altheran

[MillionsKNives]

The devs said they are here to answer questions. They never said anything about using this to make class balance changes. Ask a question about gear optimization for a specific class or about logistics of testing. Point is ask them something that can be useful to help players out.

 

Perhaps you should read my entire post. Might help instead of continuing to assert something that I've already addressed.

 

How is gear optimization helpful to players when we already know the optimal gear? How is logistics of their testing helpful to players at all? You're not making any sense.

[UltimateKrucible]

Heroics and Flashpoints do not need intense performances to be cleared. Especially Heroics, where you don't even need to have particular roles.

 

Operations and especially hard and nightmare modes are on another level.

 

But here's the thing ... both ops and even NiM can be completed with Shadows - either tanks or DPS. It is, I can attest, also a good PvP class - although there are obviously better.

 

The problem is that Shadows are not as good as other classes for all those things. But they are not fundamentally broken. And imo- That's where Kitru was coming from and we're therefore better off without him.

 

We're never going to get a complete rebuild or get anywhere with a rep who claims to know more than the devs and goes in aggressively. We need a rep who will argue for specific buffs, or a tone-up. Do we have any takers yet?

[NoFishing]

Your class is easy to play but hard to master. Youre a tank class, tank the enemy, make them pay for damaging you. You cannot compare yourself to THE MARAUDER class since, you know, THE MARAUDER class cannot tank.

 

I see what you did there. +1

[MillionsKNives]

But here's the thing ... both ops and even NiM can be completed with Shadows - either tanks or DPS. It is, I can attest, also a good PvP class - although there are obviously better.

 

The problem is that Shadows are not as good as other classes for all those things. But they are not fundamentally broken. And imo- That's where Kitru was coming from and we're therefore better off without him.

 

We're never going to get a complete rebuild or get anywhere with a rep who claims to know more than the devs and goes in aggressively. We need a rep who will argue for specific buffs, or a tone-up. Do we have any takers yet?

 

I've never seen Kitru claim that Shadows could not complete content, just, as you say, that they are the worst at it. The way they have responded in the past to the issues with Shadows, and the fact that they don't even test with any, he might very well know more about Shadows than the devs do. What you are asking for is exactly all I've ever seen him fight for. Not a rebalance but a tune up, he's even made plenty of suggestions in the past for small changes that would improve balance.

[ScarletBlaze]

Heroics and Flashpoints do not need intense performances to be cleared. Especially Heroics, where you don't even need to have particular roles.

 

Operations and especially hard and nightmare modes are on another level.

 

I have done some hard modes and was still able to do it so again I don't see the problem, though I am a dps. I have not heard one complaint from my guild about my performance.

 

I have to pay more attention to what I am doing than maybe on my operative but I do that anyways since my shadow wears light armor.

[MillionsKNives]

I have done some hard modes and was still able to do it so again I don't see the problem, though I am a dps. I have not heard one complaint from my guild about my performance.

 

I have to pay more attention to what I am doing than maybe on my operative but I do that anyways since my shadow wears light armor.

 

Again, flashpoints, even the hard modes, aren't very demanding on performance, especially for DPS.

[UltimateKrucible]

I've never seen Kitru claim that Shadows could not complete content, just, as you say, that they are the worst at it. The way they have responded in the past to the issues with Shadows, and the fact that they don't even test with any, he might very well know more about Shadows than the devs do. What you are asking for is exactly all I've ever seen him fight for. Not a rebalance but a tune up, he's even made plenty of suggestions in the past for small changes that would improve balance.

 

So why did he quit before we've even had our answers .... am I missing something here?

[MillionsKNives]

So why did he quit before we've even had our answers .... am I missing something here?

 

Because after all of the work he put in to demonstrate that Assassin tanks are far off in terms of balance from the other two they've completely ignored it all. Months of discussing it in the Shadow and Tank forums and the CS reps had no idea about any of it, and he had to explicitly explain it to them for them to have even a clue what he was talking about. Then they finally gave a response that they were looking into it over a month ago (closer to two months now I believe), and still nothing. 2.4 hit PTS with absolutely no useful changes of any kind. We'd have to wait until the end of the year at the earliest for any change of any kind.

 

It'd be hard to imagine him not being disappointed after all the hard work with nothing to show for it. He was clearly becoming more and more resentful towards the devs' inaction. Looking at their latest responses there isn't even a high possibility of them acting on any question he would put forward. So he left to do something better with his time, and I can't fault him for it.

[NoFishing]

I did - and while the answers are a bit lacklustre, what were they supposed to say? People seemed to be asking for the sorc class to be rebuilt from the ground up, and that's not going to happen. The answers to the sentinel and sniper classes were thorough, though... so what's your point?

 

I think the point is that sents and snipers have really nothing to complain about, and answering their questions was easy. They are currently dominating all PvE fights while simultaneously having stronger defenses and cooldowns than any other DPS class/spec in the game. For PvP they can be expected to win most 1v1 fights against any other class played by someone of equal skill. What *would* they ask about other than some very specific questions relating to their abilities and specs?

 

On the tanking side of things, is there really any debate any more that Guardians/Juggs are the strongest tanks in the game right now?

 

Other classes look at those, and of course are going to ask questions about balance and what BW is planning to do to rectify it. And the answers they got basically boil down to "there are no balance issues, L2P".

[UltimateKrucible]

Because after all of the work he put in to demonstrate that Assassin tanks are far off in terms of balance from the other two they've completely ignored it all. Months of discussing it in the Shadow and Tank forums and the CS reps had no idea about any of it, and he had to explicitly explain it to them for them to have even a clue what he was talking about. Then they finally gave a response that they were looking into it over a month ago (closer to two months now I believe), and still nothing. 2.4 hit PTS with absolutely no useful changes of any kind. We'd have to wait until the end of the year at the earliest for any change of any kind.

 

It'd be hard to imagine him not being disappointed after all the hard work with nothing to show for it. He was clearly becoming more and more resentful towards the devs' inaction. Looking at their latest responses there isn't even a high possibility of them acting on any question he would put forward. So he left to do something better with his time, and I can't fault him for it.

 

Well, that just proves how unfit he was to be class rep. He was obviously focussed on one area - tank spikiness - to the exclusion of all others. Last thing we needed in a rep. The way I see it is we're at the start of a long process here and what we need is someone who's going to stick to that ... Not flounce off when the one issue they care about goes unheeded.

 

Edit: And do you think he missed the big red post on top of the PTS patch notes saying they are not final? This is getting worse and worse.

 

Do we even have questions, or did Kitru take them with when he rode off on his drama-lama?

Edited August 26, 2013 by UltimateKrucible

[Xinika]

Think this thread's getting a little bit out of hand. Kitru's done a lot for the community, even though some may not have agreed on the manner or methods. He's leaving and this is a farewell. Now, to focus on the even greater issue than Kitru, myself or anyone else - How are we going to present the batch of questions for the next Rep?