Vanguard Questions!

[mfourcustom]

The community feels that Vanguards lack both survivability and utility in comparison to the other two DPS/tank classes. When we look at the defensive cooldown that shadows possess (stealth, force speed, force wave, deflection, phasewalk, and resilience), we see a greater potential for surviving an encounter. The same is true when we look at a guardians list of cooldowns (guardian leap, force leap, saber ward, saber reflect, enure and force push). Looking at the vanguards short list of (reactive shield, hold the line, and adrenaline rush, harpoon, stealth scan), In terms of being picked for high level end game PVP IE (Rated pvp) coupled with the changes to our burst and lack of cool downs as listed above vanguard tanks and DPS alike bring nothing to the plate that the other two tanking/DPS class don’t bring, For example (in this example consider the three classes are DPS spec only ) in a huttball a shadow has his or her stealth for setting up end zone passes also the shadow has his or her force speed and resilience for grabbing the ball when it resets to the middle of the map. A guardian has his or her enemy leap and friendly leap, and force push for setting up scores, a vanguard has his or her harpoon for fire pulls and hold the line, harpoon can be a game saving talent in the right hands and hold the line is far from useless but the community feels that these talents don’t stack up to the other two classes talents. The word “lackluster” fits how the community's feels about the class right now. To encompass the point of this question here again the vanguard players feel “lackluster” in PVP Where as before many players at least felt like they were able to compete in PVP do to the burst assault once had now many players feel no matter which spec they find themselves using they cannot compete whatsoever, so we ask what could be done to address these weaknesses?

 

PVE:

 

With the changes to the Assault tree and even with the small tweaks to the Tactics tree, many players for higher-end content (i.e. TFB/SV NiM) opt out of the top tier talents in both trees and instead run a hybrid spec. The general player consensus behind this option is that a full-tree Assault build is simply not viable, and that Tactics is missing a few key components to make it a truly great spec. In Assault, Assault Plastique's damage is disproportionate to other classes top-tier talent (not to mention having its burst potential neutered in 2.0), and lacks any kind of synergy with the tree. Tactics is a bit better, but players are forced to put a point into Blaster Augs (which gives a frustrating 1% boost to elemental attacks), and once again, the top tier talent Fire Pulse features a long cooldown while lacking any real punch. The hybrid spec, rather, is a simple priority system that combines Tactics AoE capabilities via Pulse Generator and pre-2.0 Assault's single target damage potential with three different DoT's and hard-hitting HiB. Was this hybrid intended to out pace the full tree builds of Assault/Tactics? If not, we as the player base feel as if the top-tier talents in both Tactics and Assault should be re-considered to make it worthwhile for players to climb all the way up the tree, so what can be done to increase their usefulness?

 

 

 

Other:

For our last question one of the biggest concerns the community has with the vanguard class from a DPS standpoint of view is lack of burst. With some of the changes to our class in 2.0 and the change to Crit vanguard DPS across all servers found themselves lacking burst and suffering heavily from it. Our classes TTK (time to kill) is very slow now its not impossible to solo another class but overall in both the tactics tree and assault tree we feel VERY underwhelmed and out classes compared to a shadow DPS or a guardian DPS. Many players have made note that the change to our High Impact bolts armor pen has played a part in this but also if we look at other classes such as shadows, commandos, or focus Guardians our numbers in game don’t stack up. Our High impact bolt hits on average around 5.5 to 6.5 K and that’s at its highest whereas other classes like focus guardians or shadows flat out hit harder In PVP TTK (time to kill) especially in endgame high level PVP such as rateds or the upcoming arenas time to kill and burst is something a class must have to be taken, our class lacks that over all. Our end match numbers CAN and will stack up to other classes in both tactics and Assault but these numbers are misleading we might be stacking up number wise but we struggle to kill anything in both our DPS trees compared to the other DPS classes, it feels as if right now all classes have at least one DPS tree they can count on to bring burst to their teams efforts but our class really lacks that feature and we feel this is a problem that needs to be addressed. Before 2.0 a vanguard DPS could find himself a spot on a good rated team do to the great burst he or she brought to the plate. It was what set our class apart from the others and in many ways was our best defense skill so, with that said is there anyway this overall general concern for our classes lack of burst damage could be addressed?

[loftethered]

thanks for taking the time to come up with these questions banksy i can only hope now that the devs pay attention and bring some life back to this class

[ceelaniri]

The community feels that Vanguards lack both survivability and utility in comparison to the other two DPS/tank classes. When we look at the[Might want to add "inherent" to avoid the devs listing all the DCD you can spec in] defensive cooldown that shadows possess (stealth, force speed, force wave, deflection, phasewalk, and resilience), we see a greater potential for surviving an encounter. The same is true when we look at a guardians list of cooldowns (guardian leap, force leap, saber ward, saber reflect, enure and force push). Looking at the vanguards short list of (reactive shield, hold the line, and adrenaline rush, harpoon, stealth scan). In terms of being picked for high level end game PVP IE (Rated pvp) coupled with the changes to our burst and lack of cool downs [DCD?] as listed above vanguard tanks and DPS alike bring nothing to the plate that the other two tanking/DPS class don’t bring. For example (in this example consider the three classes are DPS spec only ) in a huttball a shadow has his or her stealth for setting up end zone passes, also the shadow has his or her force speed and resilience for grabbing the ball when it resets to the middle of the map. A guardian has his or her enemy leap and friendly leap, and force push for setting up scores, a vanguard has his or her harpoon for fire pulls and hold the line, harpoon can be a game saving talent in the right hands and hold the line is far from useless but the community feels that these talents don’t stack up to the other two classes talents. The word “lackluster” fits how the community's feels about the class right now. To encompass the point of this question here again the vanguard players feel “lackluster” in PVP whereas, before many players at least felt like they were able to compete in PVP due to the burst assault once had now many players feel no matter which spec they find themselves using they cannot compete whatsoever, so we ask what could be done to address these weaknesses?

 

PVE:

 

With the changes to the Assault tree and even with the small tweaks to the Tactics tree, many players for higher-end content (i.e. TFB/SV NiM) opt out of the top tier talents in both trees and instead run a hybrid spec. The general player consensus behind this option is that a full-tree Assault build is simply not viable, and that Tactics is missing a few key components to make it a truly great spec. In Assault, Assault Plastique's damage is disproportionate to other classes top-tier talent (not to mention having its burst potential neutered in 2.0), and lacks any kind of synergy with the tree. Tactics is a bit better, but players are forced to put a point into Blaster Augs (which gives a frustrating 1% boost to elemental attacks), and once again, the top tier talent Fire Pulse features a long cooldown while lacking any real punch. The hybrid spec, rather, is a simple priority system that combines Tactics AoE capabilities via Pulse Generator and pre-2.0 Assault's single target damage potential with three different DoT's and hard-hitting HiB. Was this hybrid intended to out pace the full tree builds of Assault/Tactics? If not, we as the player base feel as if the top-tier talents in both Tactics and Assault should be re-considered to make it worthwhile for players to climb all the way up the tree, so what can be done to increase their usefulness?

 

 

 

Other:

For our last question one of the biggest concerns the community has with the vanguard class from a DPS standpoint of view is lack of burst. With some of the changes to our class in 2.0 and the change to Crit vanguard DPS across all servers found themselves lacking burst and suffering heavily from it. Our classes TTK (time to kill) is very slow now its not impossible to solo another class but overall in both the tactics tree and assault tree we feel VERY underwhelmed and out classes compared to a shadow DPS or a guardian DPS. Many players have made note that the change to our High Impact bolts armor pen has played a part in this but also if we look at other classes such as shadows, commandos, or focus Guardians our numbers in game don’t stack up. Our High impact bolt hits on average around 5.5 to 6.5 K and that’s at its highest whereas other classes like focus guardians or shadows flat out hit harder In PVP TTK (perhaps you could simply mention Maul and Smash hitting for up to xk dmg?) especially in endgame high level PVP such as rateds or the upcoming arenas time to kill and burst is something a class must have to be taken, our class lacks that over all. Our end match numbers CAN and will stack up to other classes in both tactics and Assault due to AOE but these numbers are misleading. We might be stacking up number wise but we struggle to kill anything in both our DPS trees compared to the other DPS classes, it feels as if right now all classes have at least one DPS tree they can count on to bring burst to their teams efforts but our class really lacks that feature and we feel this is a problem that needs to be addressed. Before 2.0 a vanguard DPS could find himself a spot on a good rated team do to the great burst he or she brought to the plate. It was what set our class apart from the others and in many ways was our best defense skill so, with that said is there anyway this overall general concern for our classes lack of burst damage could be addressed?

 

Thank you for taking the time to redact these questions. I took the liberty to do a bit of editing (for the record, English isn't my native language). Perhaps the style could be lightened but they carry your point across.

[Siphorus]

Awesome! theres no way bioware can deny how awful our class is.

[EricMusco]

I will pass your top 3 on, thanks guys!

 

-eric

[Aelaias]

Awesome! theres no way bioware can deny how awful our class is.

 

Looking over the 2.4 notes I think yes, they can and have.

[Ottoattack]

Looking over the 2.4 notes I think yes, they can and have.

 

Ya, no matter what the answers are 2.4 already indicated that the class that is worst dps in PvP, 2nd worst in PvE with second rated tank is OP. So they went ahead and nerfed pyro/assault. F***ing stupid.

 

Oh ya, AP/tactics still can't hit a 6K hit and revolves around prototype flame thrower, which no one remotely debates is beyond terrible in PvP, even with the upcoming buffs. You will get cced. The end.

 

If this game ever going to get close to being balanced, BW need to let go of all the current devs that are responsible for class balance. There is no other way.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Ottoattack

[AlyxDinas]

Fair questions but reading them hurt my eyes. For whatever that's worth.

[Couver]

Tactics is a bit better, but players are forced to put a point into Blaster Augs (which gives a frustrating 1% boost to elemental attacks)

Blaster Augs needs to atleast add an additional 5% elemental damage. 10% total for the stance.

the top tier talent Fire Pulse features a long cooldown while lacking any real punch.

I like the damage this skill does if it crits. If it doesn't? Yeah, it blows. The cd definitely needs a reduction.

Oh ya, AP/tactics still can't hit a 6K hit

HiB can. But not for much over.

 

All in all, I think it's not too much to ask for an execute ability. I'd also like to see storm made into a class skill as well. If we're supposed to be a melee class now, we need something more than harpoon on 45 second (at best) cd to close the gap.

[Fellow-Canadian]

Great questions! I followed the question thread and I think you captured the essence of the majority.

[Benets]

The fun part is we thinking they'll actually change something. They'll keep let it be. And keep doing cartel things to sell.

 

They don't really mind about the balance of this game, if they do they game would never come to what it is right now.

[DraydeRhionnan]

I feel like nothing in these three questions addressed the concerns of PVE tanks. The first question could potentially apply to PVE needs as well, but the fact that it's framed in a PVP sphere makes that difficult.

 

You have - a Tank PVP question.

 

A PVE DPS question.

 

A PVP DPS question.

 

IMO, the last question should have been the PVP question. The first question should have been expanded to include the concerns of PVE tanks.

 

Vanguard defensive abilities in PVE are crippling compared to Guardians/Shadows. Reactive shield is the only reliable, straight-froward damage reduction. Shadows and Guardians both have cooldowns that are as good, or better (guardians straight up have a 15% better damage reduction, even). Their only other defensive cooldown that's really a DC (and not just a utility) is smoke grenade, but it's an RNG cooldown, which lowers its value. Yes, lowered enemy accuracy may mean it doesn't hit you at all, making it a great cooldown. The enemy could also get lucky and hit you every time. Given that DC's are often used in emergency situations, having its reliability in question makes it a poor defensive cooldown.

 

The fact that this question is focused on PVP, and the issues of Vanguard tanks weren't addressed in PVE (low quality DC's as well as low damage compared to the other tanks) makes me think that the OP is either a primary PVPer and/or primary DPS.

 

The extreme focus on PVP DPS and lack of focus on PVE tanking is a little disappointing, in my view.

[Darth_Dreselus]

Can't ask everything and there are still 3 PT question left.

[ArchangelLBC]

I feel like nothing in these three questions addressed the concerns of PVE tanks. The first question could potentially apply to PVE needs as well, but the fact that it's framed in a PVP sphere makes that difficult.

 

You have - a Tank PVP question.

 

A PVE DPS question.

 

A PVP DPS question.

 

IMO, the last question should have been the PVP question. The first question should have been expanded to include the concerns of PVE tanks.

 

Vanguard defensive abilities in PVE are crippling compared to Guardians/Shadows. Reactive shield is the only reliable, straight-froward damage reduction. Shadows and Guardians both have cooldowns that are as good, or better (guardians straight up have a 15% better damage reduction, even). Their only other defensive cooldown that's really a DC (and not just a utility) is smoke grenade, but it's an RNG cooldown, which lowers its value. Yes, lowered enemy accuracy may mean it doesn't hit you at all, making it a great cooldown. The enemy could also get lucky and hit you every time. Given that DC's are often used in emergency situations, having its reliability in question makes it a poor defensive cooldown.

 

The fact that this question is focused on PVP, and the issues of Vanguard tanks weren't addressed in PVE (low quality DC's as well as low damage compared to the other tanks) makes me think that the OP is either a primary PVPer and/or primary DPS.

 

The extreme focus on PVP DPS and lack of focus on PVE tanking is a little disappointing, in my view.

 

Actually, the very first thing talked about were the defensive cooldowns of VG. Granted the idea was folded into the general utility, but defensive cooldowns ARE the biggest weakness of VG tanks in both PVE and PVP, so I wouldn't say VG tank PVE concerns were totally ignored.

[DraydeRhionnan]

Actually, the very first thing talked about were the defensive cooldowns of VG. Granted the idea was folded into the general utility, but defensive cooldowns ARE the biggest weakness of VG tanks in both PVE and PVP, so I wouldn't say VG tank PVE concerns were totally ignored.

 

It was talked about in an entirely PVP sense, and compared in a PVP manner within the context of utility abilities. The fact that it was addressed with an entirely PVP orientation could imply that all that is necessary are PVP DC's which are not effective in PVE - or simply more utility abilities for huttball.

 

I agree, and I noted in my post, that DC's were addressed in his post... My problem was the manner in which they were addressed implies a singular sphere of need - PVP. Not PVE. Much like the sorcerer post (which was -purely- PVP oriented), it makes me feel the Vanguard class rep is a pure pvper and isn't really concerned with PVE.

[VoidBird]

It was talked about in an entirely PVP sense, and compared in a PVP manner within the context of utility abilities. The fact that it was addressed with an entirely PVP orientation could imply that all that is necessary are PVP DC's which are not effective in PVE - or simply more utility abilities for huttball.

 

I agree, and I noted in my post, that DC's were addressed in his post... My problem was the manner in which they were addressed implies a singular sphere of need - PVP. Not PVE. Much like the sorcerer post (which was -purely- PVP oriented), it makes me feel the Vanguard class rep is a pure pvper and isn't really concerned with PVE.

 

if i'm not mistaken, the powertech community will be forming their questions based on the vanguard questions, and from what i've read over there so far they plan on focusing alot on the tanking aspect.. they will be asking questions to supplement the vg's and fill in the gaps of what wasn't brought up by vg's.. our 3 questions were based on the most obvious issues which are survivability, hybrid specs, and lack of burst.. but there are certainly more issues then just those alone, and i'm confident the powertechs will do us all justice with their questions on remaining issues... it would help to read both the pt and vg remarks, as the object is to work together between the mirror classes. maybe point out your concerns on the pt forum and help them formulate their questions regarding vg/pt tanking and more pve oriented issues. this way all the vg/pt enthusiasts can be represented

[foxmob]

The fact that this question is focused on PVP, and the issues of Vanguard tanks weren't addressed in PVE (low quality DC's as well as low damage compared to the other tanks) makes me think that the OP is either a primary PVPer and/or primary DPS.

 

not sure if you're making an observation for the sake of an observation or if you're trying to get at something else, but NOBODY is both primarily a tank AND primarily a dps. you can only be primarily one. that's why it's called "primary."

 

as for the rest...I think the main lack for both pve and pvp tanking is dcds. juggs have 3. VGs have 2. mind you, these are base dcds (even a rage jugg has 3). PTs are built around shield/absorb (aka: direct dmg). this makes them much better suited for pve than pvp. it only makes sense to mention more of the pvp problem as addressing that addresses pve as well. in fact, that could be said for all 3 specs. burst and sustained dmg are sub par in both trees and for both pve and pvp. once again: same basic concerns. separating them into pve and pvp is synthetic and meaningless for this particular AC.

[DraydeRhionnan]

if i'm not mistaken, the powertech community will be forming their questions based on the vanguard questions, and from what i've read over there so far they plan on focusing alot on the tanking aspect.. they will be asking questions to supplement the vg's and fill in the gaps of what wasn't brought up by vg's.. our 3 questions were based on the most obvious issues which are survivability, hybrid specs, and lack of burst.. but there are certainly more issues then just those alone, and i'm confident the powertechs will do us all justice with their questions on remaining issues... it would help to read both the pt and vg remarks, as the object is to work together between the mirror classes. maybe point out your concerns on the pt forum and help them formulate their questions regarding vg/pt tanking and more pve oriented issues. this way all the vg/pt enthusiasts can be represented

 

 

You know, if the PT questions address tanking more.. awesome. I'm aware that the PT questions are not in yet.. and I'm looking forward to them.

 

My problem is that I'm seeing a trend. The marauder gave his 'qualifications' as 'I've PVP'ed over 1k matches and have X ranking'. That was his qualification to be our class rep. His -entire- listed qualifications. The sorcerer class rep clearly focused entirely on PVP, and ignored several extremely important PVE issues.

 

This bias has become concerning to me. Yes, the questions brought up here are legitimate questions. They are things that need to be addressed in Vanguard PVP - but I think there's a legitimate concern that, thus far, the class reps have tended to be PVPers and focused on PVP issues.

[DraydeRhionnan]

not sure if you're making an observation for the sake of an observation or if you're trying to get at something else, but NOBODY is both primarily a tank AND primarily a dps. you can only be primarily one. that's why it's called "primary."

 

as for the rest...I think the main lack for both pve and pvp tanking is dcds. juggs have 3. VGs have 2. mind you, these are base dcds (even a rage jugg has 3). PTs are built around shield/absorb (aka: direct dmg). this makes them much better suited for pve than pvp. it only makes sense to mention more of the pvp problem as addressing that addresses pve as well. in fact, that could be said for all 3 specs. burst and sustained dmg are sub par in both trees and for both pve and pvp. once again: same basic concerns. separating them into pve and pvp is synthetic and meaningless for this particular AC.

 

 

If by 'primary' we're talking 'what am I best at', then I agree. Of course a tank isn't a good DPS while in tanking spec. However, I do believe players crosstrain. Our main vanguard tank of our progression group does a lot of PVP and PVE as a tank and DPS, and I think he's rather good at speaking to the needs of both. I feel like the needs of DPS and PVP are over-focused on, and I would like to see some focus on the needs of PVE tanking.

 

As you mentioned, and as was mentioned to me before.. and as I noted in my original post.. The OP does mention the need for DC's. He does so, however, in the context of his PVP question. He also does so in the context of PVP imbalance, and includes in these 'DC's utility abilities such as stealth scan. The danger here is that this could be taken as a request for more utility in PVP, and not necessarily what PVE'ers would describe as DC's, or DC's that would be effective in PVE. As a PVEer, my definition of DC's doesn't include stealth scan. Based on the OP's post, as a PVPer, his does. This creates a concerning possibility of potential fixes that aren't dealing with a PVE problem - only a PVP one.

 

While it's a lesser issue, Vanguard tanks do, from my experience, do far less damage than their Guardian/Shadow counterparts. In tight DPS fights (Styrak) this makes them a potential burden.

 

I'm not writing these posts to simply whine/complain, and I do believe the OP addressed some thing that do need to be dealt with in the PVP realm. My concern is that there has been, thus far, a PVP bias in most of the class questions so far. The exception, imo, was the sentinel rep - who seemed to focus on both rather equally.

[VoidBird]

in regards to the question about dcd's and survivability, personally i would have liked to see more specific mention of adrenaline rush in particular.. aside from the reactive shield which is damage mitigation, the self-heal aspect of adrenaline rush is pretty important, although with negligible benefit..

prior to 2.0 the adrenaline rush only healed for 15% of total health, and then post 2.0 it was raised to 30% of total health. this boost was a great thing, but it is still severely lacking effectiveness.. It only goes into effect when you're below 30% hp, which is within the execute window, and then it heals over a period of 8 seconds (not nearly quick enough imo). essentially when below 30% health you aren't likely to stay alive for 8 more seconds to get the full benefit, so much of that ability is wasted. maybe it'l keep you alive for 1 or 2 seconds longer but that's it from what i've seen.. aside from adding additional dcd's it would help a lot to improve the 2 dcd's we already have.. i really wish the survivability question would have mentioned this.. nonetheless i'm glad that survivability in general was brought into question and i hope the dev answers shed some light on what to expect regarding our dcd's especially adrenaline rush...

Edited August 19, 2013 by VoidBird

[Luckyluzi]

in regards to the question about dcd's and survivability, personally i would have liked to see more specific mention of adrenaline rush in particular.. aside from the reactive shield which is damage mitigation, the self-heal aspect of adrenaline rush is pretty important, although with negligible benefit..

prior to 2.0 the adrenaline rush only healed for 15% of total health, and then post 2.0 it was raised to 30% of total health. this boost was a great thing, but it is still severely lacking effectiveness.. It only goes into effect when you're below 30% hp, which is within the execute window, and then it heals over a period of 8 seconds (not nearly quick enough imo). essentially when below 30% health you aren't likely to stay alive for 8 more seconds to get the full benefit, so much of that ability is wasted. maybe it'l keep you alive for 1 or 2 seconds longer but that's it from what i've seen.. aside from adding additional dcd's it would help a lot to improve the 2 dcd's we already have.. i really wish the survivability question would have mentioned this.. nonetheless i'm glad that survivability in general was brought into question and i hope the dev answers shed some light on what to expect regarding our dcd's especially adrenaline rush...

 

adrenaline rush heals you for 48% health total , it heals 4x 1,5% per seconds for 8 seconds , but yeah the 30% requirement is ****

 

they should change it to a heal over time dependent on your current health pool:

example:

over 70% health it heals you for 1% /sec

between 50 and 70% health it heals you for for 2%/sec

between 50 and 30% health it heals you for 3%/sec

below 30% health it heals you for 4% /sec (slght nerf in comparison to the 6% /sec we have now)

 

they also should reduce the cd to 2 min, guardians have focus defense heals for 30% hp with 45 sec cd and enure for 30% more hp and 75sec cd !

Edited August 19, 2013 by Luckyluzi

[Chickensevil]

As someone who primarily does PVE I do not feel that these were bad questions.

 

Bottom line adding another defensive CD would help tanks AND dps. I go back to the example of Saber Reflect... They did NOT just give that to a tank. So basically we are asking for a DCD on the class, NOT just tanks, but it would definately help tanks too. You complain about survival as a tank, and what we are trying to tell you (since you aparently only tank) is that survival is trash on the ENTIRE class. Giving us a moderate bump across the board would most certainly be a boost to the tank. Therefore the first question was actually fair to everyone... Was it framed in the example of PVP? sure, but when have they ever released an ability that ONLY has use in PVP? Even stealth scan has use in PVE (very, very limited use, but the use is there, especially for the Olak the Shadow fight.)

 

If you think that tanking is in THAT bad of a place, that it is somehow in a worse place than the DPS specs, you are sorely mistaken. Our only problem as a tank is that Juggs are just so OP that they drown us out. But we are in a good place in general as a tank class. Especially when it comes to PVE content. The only reason we struggle is PVP as a tanking class, is because again, the Jugg tanks are just that OP, that you would be remiss to not bring a Jugg. That is more an issue with Juggs needing a nerf than us needing a buff, although again, adding a DCD would fix any possible potential of us being in a bad place as a tanking class.

 

I tank for my guild on the rare off occasion, and we have a main spec PT tank in our guild as well (actually made that switch when we just hit a wall with sin tanking that we could not overcome and had to switch). I don't feel tanking in PVE is in a bad place, and neither does our PT tank in our guild. Most of your issues staying alive in NiM mode is going to come down on the healers not doing their job well enough, more than you being a "bad tank class" because our healers have just as much trouble keeping the PT up as they do keeping the Jugg up.

[Chickensevil]

Oh and to Banksy (mfourcustom) great job overall on the questions. Thank you for working hard to try to accommodate the most pressing issues of the class, I know you have gotten some flak from people about these and I want to tell you I think you did a pretty fair job in assessing the needs of the class.

 

My only complain would be that the questions were rather wordy (I suffer from wall-o-text syndrome as well) but overall I think we hit the biggest things for our class and I look forward to Bioware's response and our follow up three questions!

[DraydeRhionnan]

As someone who primarily does PVE I do not feel that these were bad questions.

 

Bottom line adding another defensive CD would help tanks AND dps. I go back to the example of Saber Reflect... They did NOT just give that to a tank. So basically we are asking for a DCD on the class, NOT just tanks, but it would definately help tanks too. You complain about survival as a tank, and what we are trying to tell you (since you aparently only tank) is that survival is trash on the ENTIRE class. Giving us a moderate bump across the board would most certainly be a boost to the tank. Therefore the first question was actually fair to everyone... Was it framed in the example of PVP? sure, but when have they ever released an ability that ONLY has use in PVP? Even stealth scan has use in PVE (very, very limited use, but the use is there, especially for the Olak the Shadow fight.)

 

If you think that tanking is in THAT bad of a place, that it is somehow in a worse place than the DPS specs, you are sorely mistaken. Our only problem as a tank is that Juggs are just so OP that they drown us out. But we are in a good place in general as a tank class. Especially when it comes to PVE content. The only reason we struggle is PVP as a tanking class, is because again, the Jugg tanks are just that OP, that you would be remiss to not bring a Jugg. That is more an issue with Juggs needing a nerf than us needing a buff, although again, adding a DCD would fix any possible potential of us being in a bad place as a tanking class.

 

I tank for my guild on the rare off occasion, and we have a main spec PT tank in our guild as well (actually made that switch when we just hit a wall with sin tanking that we could not overcome and had to switch). I don't feel tanking in PVE is in a bad place, and neither does our PT tank in our guild. Most of your issues staying alive in NiM mode is going to come down on the healers not doing their job well enough, more than you being a "bad tank class" because our healers have just as much trouble keeping the PT up as they do keeping the Jugg up.

 

 

Obviously this was directed at me. I never said, nor do I think, Vanguard tanking is terrible. Please don't make my statements overly dramatic when it wasn't intended.

 

Vanguard tanks do great. I'm actually not a main tank - I'm mostly a DPS Sent, and also do progression raiding as a Jugg tank. I do have a Vanguard tank - I simply don't find him as enjoyable or as 'good', when it comes to a class, and it mostly comes to DC's. I've said this several times, and so I'll say it again:

 

My concern is that, because the OP's questions were given in such a way that the definition of 'DC" includes things such as Stealth Scan and other utility abilities, and because he posed the question in a PVP context of Vanguard's lack of utility in PVP, the devs might understand this as a lack of -utility- DC's, and add in more utility items similar to stealth scan or harpoon - and not things that PVPers would consider DC's. -That's- my concern. That we're working with a PVP definition of DC's, which includes utility items, and a PVE definition, which is strictly damage reduction. Yes, stealth scan and harpoon are very useful in PVE - but Vanguards don't need additional utility abilities in PVE. They need PVE definition DC's. That's where I find tension with that first question.

[Chickensevil]

Obviously this was directed at me. I never said, nor do I think, Vanguard tanking is terrible. Please don't make my statements overly dramatic when it wasn't intended.

 

Vanguard tanks do great. I'm actually not a main tank - I'm mostly a DPS Sent, and also do progression raiding as a Jugg tank. I do have a Vanguard tank - I simply don't find him as enjoyable or as 'good', when it comes to a class, and it mostly comes to DC's. I've said this several times, and so I'll say it again:

 

My concern is that, because the OP's questions were given in such a way that the definition of 'DC" includes things such as Stealth Scan and other utility abilities, and because he posed the question in a PVP context of Vanguard's lack of utility in PVP, the devs might understand this as a lack of -utility- DC's, and add in more utility items similar to stealth scan or harpoon - and not things that PVPers would consider DC's. -That's- my concern. That we're working with a PVP definition of DC's, which includes utility items, and a PVE definition, which is strictly damage reduction. Yes, stealth scan and harpoon are very useful in PVE - but Vanguards don't need additional utility abilities in PVE. They need PVE definition DC's. That's where I find tension with that first question.

 

And see, you are comparing vanguard to jugg. Which was what I was trying to get at. Of course if you have both of them (unless you are just a diehard VG... what can I say, I am a sucker for punishment) you are likely going to choose that which is the best.

 

I was over dramatising it to make it clear, I am not really trying to attack you specifically, there have been plenty who have said something about question 1 because it didn't say "tanking" and was talking about the class in general (go flip through some of the other threads on these questions). I am sorry if you felt this was a personal attack, was not my intent.

 

What is keeping us from being the go to... ANYTHING... is lack of that little something extra that makes us something everyone wants, but only we have. Whether that comes in the form of a DCD or a special utility I don't really care. Keep in mind that a utility could be so good that it makes up for our lack of a "missing" DCD that it doesn't matter.

 

Look at it this way, they will most likely come back with one of three responses (each of which will help to frame the tanking question).

 

1. We think that there are plenty of reasons to bring a PT/VG into a group, their survival is fine, and you should stop complaining.

2. Huh, you know what, they could use more utility. Super stealth scan!!!! Go!

3. Actually we already had plans to roll out an "I win button" for the class, and you will be seeing it soon.

 

If you get the first answer, well then we can try to plead our case... again... why specifically tanking needs help... and needs another DCD...

Second answer, we can still for a tanking question, so maybe they will add something specifically to just the tank tree (new 8th tier ability!)

Third answer, we all win. they give the entire class an "I win button".

 

This is why I supported this question from the beginning, because it attempts to address the larger issue which plagues the class, and then we can work to tackle the smaller (but equally important) issue regarding the one tree.