Rough Draft submissions and vote thread

[ArenCordial]

Yeah ssfish's was a bit cleaner for the PvE, so I'd recommend that one. The rest of Marb's were fantastic.

[Marb]

ssfish pretty much cleaned up the PvE question, it reads much nicer now. I'm still worried they will give us the "comparing marauders and juggernauts isn't a good comparison" they gave sorcerers.

[ArenCordial]

ssfish pretty much cleaned up the PvE question, it reads much nicer now. I'm still worried they will give us the "comparing marauders and juggernauts isn't a good comparison" they gave sorcerers.

 

Well his question doesn't make mention of Marauder's so I think that wouldn't be an issue. And unless I missed something neither does your general question for Vengeance so those should be ok.

Edited August 26, 2013 by ArenCordial

[Marb]

Well his question doesn't make mention of Marauder's so I think that wouldn't be an issue. And unless I missed something neither does your general question for Vengeance so those should be ok.

 

True, though now i think they will just feel the need to remind us of all the amazing things dps juggernauts can do in ops, like intercede! Now I'm just being negative.

 

Ninja edited. Revamped pve question from ssfish. Still not happy with the vengeance question, it lacks focus. EnalisNailo alternative is equally good, but it suffers from the same issues that my current question does, in that it lacks focus and doesn't read very well, due to its split pve vs pvp nature.

[ssfish]

True, though now i think they will just feel the need to remind us of all the amazing things dps juggernauts can do in ops, like intercede! Now I'm just being negative.

 

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE. With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

 

Think that would cover it? Or am I falling into the realm of "too whiny" at that point?

Edited August 26, 2013 by ssfish

[Marb]

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE. With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

 

Think that would cover it? Or am I falling into the realm of "too whiny" at that point?

 

Probably not needed (I hope), but It would be sad/amazing if "you have intercede" became our equivalent of "you can heal to full".

[ssfish]

Probably not needed (I hope), but It would be sad/amazing if "you have intercede" became our equivalent of "you can heal to full".

 

I think our equivalent will be "swap stances."

[ArenCordial]

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE. With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

 

Think that would cover it? Or am I falling into the realm of "too whiny" at that point?

 

I think we could probably do without it. If they give Intercede as an example of great raid utility, I'm going to make a meme along the lines of

 

Intercede: Juggernauts keeping your threat and their dps low since Dec 2011.

[ssfish]

Yea, it looked a bit overdone after I typed it, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

[wadecounty]

The problem with the Sorc questions, and why they got the "you can heal yourself so it makes up for lack of damage" answer, is because their questions lacked focus and mostly centered around PvP, where that actually is a suitable answer.

 

We can work around that by ensuring our PvE question is strictly about PvE damage dealing in ops, instead of something vague like the Sorc questions were.

[SkiaTheShade]

The problem with the Sorc questions, and why they got the "you can heal yourself so it makes up for lack of damage" answer, is because their questions lacked focus and mostly centered around PvP, where that actually is a suitable answer.

 

We can work around that by ensuring our PvE question is strictly about PvE damage dealing in ops, instead of something vague like the Sorc questions were.

 

I agree with this. Keep each question incredibly focused! If you dip in and out like the Sorc questions did then you risk getting a generalized answer from BioWare. If we keep it all neat and concise I think we might have a fighting chance at a decent answer to our questions. So far I really like where the questions are going, we NEED some group utility, we currently don't have any purpose in a group as a DPS right now, other then sub-par DPS... Which isn't enough to warrant bringing a Juggernaut for DPS. I for one love DPS on my Jugg, and the answer is NOT roll a Marauder or go Tank...

[Marb]

I agree with this. Keep each question incredibly focused! If you dip in and out like the Sorc questions did then you risk getting a generalized answer from BioWare. If we keep it all neat and concise I think we might have a fighting chance at a decent answer to our questions. So far I really like where the questions are going, we NEED some group utility, we currently don't have any purpose in a group as a DPS right now, other then sub-par DPS... Which isn't enough to warrant bringing a Juggernaut for DPS. I for one love DPS on my Jugg, and the answer is NOT roll a Marauder or go Tank...

 

That's precisely my concern with the general question. But due to how the spec presents different issues in both PvE and PvP, focusing the question on one of those aspects would give us a better chance at a relevant answer, at the cost of alienating PvP or PvE concerns. Would it be better to just frame the question from a PvE perspective, but draw attention to how much of our overall damage is dependent on ravage, and the comparatively low damage of filler abilities?

 

If we focus on the rng nature, it would bias the question too heavily towards a PvE solution (higher rampage proc chance) without addressing PvP concerns (low damage of filler abilities, ravage channel being problematic in pvp). I agree with ssfish that higher filler damage would better serve PvP players, while at the same time upping the baseline PvE dps and causing RNG streaks to peak at higher numbers.

 

Currently the question just attempts to tackle all of those concerns, which is why it doesn't work very well as a question. I have cut the general question down to a basic framework for a new style of question.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Marb

[ArenCordial]

General Question

Vengeance currently suffers from two distinctive problems that affects its performance in both PvP and PvE due to its reliance on Ravage and Rampage.

 

First is the heavy dependency on the Rampage proc to refresh Ravage. Unlike many other specs Vengeance can not refresh Ravage through ability spam, as both Impale and Shatter have significant cooldowns, and it has the lowest chance of success amongst similar abilities. Given the long 30 sec cooldown on Ravage this can create great variance in DPS performance with the large dps dips of these 'no proc' scenarios.

 

Second is the fact that its top ability is a melee channel where much of its damage can easy be avoided simply with movement, (which leaves the Juggernaut outside melee range) or not having the opportunity to get off a full Ravage channel do to a large variety of other factors (mezzes, stuns, knockbacks, etc).

 

To be clear the community enjoys both abilities and considers them the cornerstones of the spec but would the combat team consider making some changes (whether faster channel akin to the Recoil Control talent, improved proc chances, etc) to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in PvE and PvP?

 

------------

How's this for trying to make it a little more concise?

Edited August 26, 2013 by ArenCordial

[Marb]

General Question

Vengeance currently suffers from two distinctive problems that affects its performance in both PvP and PvE due to its reliance on Ravage and Rampage.

 

First is the heavy dependency on the Rampage proc to refresh Ravage. Unlike many other specs Vengeance can not refresh Ravage through ability spam, as both Impale and Shatter have significant cooldowns, and it has the lowest chance of success amongst similar abilities. Given the long 30 sec cooldown on Ravage this can create great variance in DPS performance with the large dps dips of these 'no proc' scenarios.

 

Second is the fact that its top ability is a melee channel where much of its damage can easy be avoided simply with movement, (which leaves the Juggernaut outside melee range) or not having the opportunity to get off a full Ravage channel do to a large variety of other factors (mezzes, stuns, knockbacks, etc).

 

To be clear the community enjoys both abilities and considers them the cornerstones of the spec but would the combat team consider making some changes (whether faster channel, improved proc chances, etc) to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in PvE and PvP?

 

------------

How's this for trying to make it a little more concise?

 

That's much better. I took that and went through it with some edits to make it bit more direct. If we decide that we want to ask about both issues with vengeance this is the kind of question I would like to see.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Marb

[kennethdale]

I am going to be posting the questions I have in mind tonight and pretty much have the PvP question complete. But with regards to the PvE question I am thinking about using Marb's question or Uncle Ost's. I would like the community to help with deciding which question would be better or if any alterations are needed before I post it.

 

I posted versions of the questions several pages back,but they were sort of ignored...

[Marb]

I am going to be posting the questions I have in mind tonight and pretty much have the PvP question complete. But with regards to the PvE question I am thinking about using Marb's question or Uncle Ost's. I would like the community to help with deciding which question would be better or if any alterations are needed before I post it.

I posted versions of the questions several pages back,but they were sort of ignored...

 

I would prefer the class rep to instead take our contributions into mind when constructing his own questions, rather then just flat out using them and attributing them to the author.

 

My questions include the key points from most of the previously posted questions, I have just tried to rejigg them to avoid direct class comparisons and focus on intent like the sentinel questions. I think we all agree on what the questions should be about, my main concern is about how they are asked.

 

The sorcerer and vanguard answers were terrible, in part due to unfocused and badly constructed questions, but those questions contained legitimate concerns for those classes.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Marb

[XORDYH]

To be clear the community enjoys both abilities and considers them the cornerstones of the spec but would the combat team consider making some changes (whether faster channel, improved proc chances, etc) to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in PvE and PvP?

 

If you suggest decreased channel time as a possible improvement, be prepared for an answer that involves stacking Alacrity. I think it might be better to ask for something akin to Overwhelm from Carnage.

[Luckygunslinger]

If you suggest decreased channel time as a possible improvement, be prepared for an answer that involves stacking Alacrity. I think it might be better to ask for something akin to Overwhelm from Carnage.

 

I believe Alacrity does not affect Ravage. Not sure. Regardless, it being faster may help, but, again, not sure. (Checked on my Marauder with Beserk on Ataru, that alacrity buff works. Reduces the channel from 3 to 2.3 seconds which is, quite amazing.)

 

Thinking on comparing Marauders to Juggernauts always reminds me of Afro Samurai, towards the end he comments that about the two handed grip being twice as powerful as his enemies Dual Wielding.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Luckygunslinger

[wadecounty]

If you suggest decreased channel time as a possible improvement, be prepared for an answer that involves stacking Alacrity. I think it might be better to ask for something akin to Overwhelm from Carnage.

 

I doubt we'll ever get something like Overwhelm because we already have Unstoppable, which serves almost the same purpose, but has better overall utility. That, and we can refresh our Ravage while they can't. What holds us back in PvP compared to them is the burst damage of our other abilities and our inferior cooldowns, not Ravage.

 

Personally I don't care for asking for PvP balance fixes anyways, as that's something that will never be truly balanced, while at least PvE can come close to it, but I understand some people care deeply about the PvP metagame.

[SkiaTheShade]

I doubt we'll ever get something like Overwhelm because we already have Unstoppable, which serves almost the same purpose, but has better overall utility. That, and we can refresh our Ravage while they can't. What holds us back in PvP compared to them is the burst damage of our other abilities and our inferior cooldowns, not Ravage.

 

Personally I don't care for asking for PvP balance fixes anyways, as that's something that will never be truly balanced, while at least PvE can come close to it, but I understand some people care deeply about the PvP metagame.

As a guy that purely PvP's, I want to ask questions related to both sides. Everyone who plays should have a fair game regardless of their focus. Neither PvE or PvP should be an after thought. Especially if the community and BioWare wants even a semblance of competition within the PvP side of the game

[wadecounty]

As a guy that purely PvP's, I want to ask questions related to both sides. Everyone who plays should have a fair game regardless of their focus. Neither PvE or PvP should be an after thought. Especially if the community and BioWare wants even a semblance of competition within the PvP side of the game

 

Yeah, I'm not saying a PvP question should NOT be included, and I do PvP myself as well, I just find its far more difficult to balance, and the odds we get a vague answer like the sorc and vanguard questions received are far more likely.

 

If a PvP question is asked, it has to be extremely concise and to the point, and not ask for something vague like the sorc questions did (to paraphrase, they basically complained they can't freecast in PvP for one of the questions, as if there's an easy solution to balance casters and melee classes, something no game has ever done perfectly).

 

Also, as I said before, we have to be very specific in our questions whether we're referring to PvE or PvP. I see sorcs crying that they did not address their PvE DPS issues in the answers, but the questions didn't specify PvE DPS either, so the fault there pretty clearly lies with the questions.

Edited August 26, 2013 by wadecounty

[ArenCordial]

If you suggest decreased channel time as a possible improvement, be prepared for an answer that involves stacking Alacrity. I think it might be better to ask for something akin to Overwhelm from Carnage.

 

As others have said Overwhelm would sort of be redundant with Unstoppable and Alacrity wouldn't solve anything. They tried to put it in Warrior gear but it seems they realized it was pointless with Kell Dragon set. For Juggs we have only 1 ability it would affect anyway.

 

The thought here would more be along lines of the Sniper Recoil Control talent, something for Veng spec only. Faster cast means less mobility issues from moving targets, and little better burst getting all that dmg in over a shorter period. Better chances of being able to complete your cast before your hit with a stun, mez, kb. Etc.

 

Would it solve all the Veng PvP issues? No, because we'd need even more burst to be really competitive in PvP, but its kind of ridiculous how easy our #1 damaging ability can be so easily countered. Its seems like the design thought is that Rage is the burst spec, Vengeance is the sustained damage spec. Its difficult to sustain damage when using your #1 ability can put out of melee range if the targets running, considering of course that most of our powers are melee range. It could also help in PvE with high movement fights (like the DG, Sunder, etc) or getting the cast off before a circle drops under your feet (most boss fights). So its a QoL thing that could help both sides, PvP and PvE.

 

I'll change the question to better reflect the idea in mind there.

[XORDYH]

As others have said Overwhelm would sort of be redundant with Unstoppable and Alacrity wouldn't solve anything. They tried to put it in Warrior gear but it seems they realized it was pointless with Kell Dragon set. For Juggs we have only 1 ability it would affect anyway.

 

The thought here would more be along lines of the Sniper Recoil Control talent, something for Veng spec only. Faster cast means less mobility issues from moving targets, and little better burst getting all that dmg in over a shorter period. Better chances of being able to complete your cast before your hit with a stun, mez, kb. Etc.

 

I certainly wasn't suggesting stacking Alacrity as a solution, merely trying to anticipate how the developers might respond. In light of the Sorcerer and Vanguard answers, I think it is useful to consider possible answers they might give, and try to formulate the questions such that they discourage unhelpful responses (such as stacking Alacrity to speed up Ravage). Remember, this is the team that already gave us this:

For Knights and Warriors specifically, attacking faster means generating resources faster. Now more Alacrity is strictly a good thing.[/Quote]

 

A skill similar to Recoil Control is an interesting solution. What other effects would you attach to it? What existing skill would you replace or attach it to?

[ArenCordial]

I certainly wasn't suggesting stacking Alacrity as a solution, merely trying to anticipate how the developers might respond. In light of the Sorcerer and Vanguard answers, I think it is useful to consider possible answers they might give, and try to formulate the questions such that they discourage unhelpful responses (such as stacking Alacrity to speed up Ravage). Remember, this is the team that already gave us this:

 

 

A skill similar to Recoil Control is an interesting solution. What other effects would you attach to it? What existing skill would you replace or attach it to?

 

Its tough to put ourselves in the designers shoes and anticipate their response, because they've shown to have a range from thoughtful responses to boneheaded responses. Quiet frankly if they want to shut us down they will, at this point the best we can do is try and make our point with precision and care.

 

The developers seem to have changed their mind though on Warrior + Alacrity = Good thing if the Kell Dragon set is anything go by since its completely absent from that set. Lets hope that's the case.

 

I'm not sure I'd want to specifically make this a talent though if I had to change a talent it would definitely be Seething Hatred, considering its such a high tier skill that barely sees any use. They could make it part of the accuracy talent so every point in accuracy essentially gives you a 10% speed up on the ability (30% max). That would put Ravage at about a cast time of a little over 2 secs. I think that would work and I'm fairly sure all the hybrid classes have their accuracy talent give more than just the +% acc (except us). Course you'd want it to work while in Shien only.

 

Still its kinda pointless to speculate, I just hope the devs get where we are coming from an think 'yeah this makes sense' as none of what we suggested really raises our dps ceiling but it probably would improve our reliability and feed down into our dps.

Edited August 26, 2013 by ArenCordial

[kennethdale]

I would prefer the class rep to instead take our contributions into mind when constructing his own questions, rather then just flat out using them and attributing them to the author.

 

/sigh I wasn't suggesting that my questions be used verbatim, simply that their form and structure be considered as well as their content. I'm too tired to continue trying to contribute. Spending over an hour wording and carefully re-wording questions to offer as simply a model and to get met with a mixture of mockery and simple ignorance not once, not twice, but three times is just too much. All I can hope is that Vengeance gets fixed.

Edited August 27, 2013 by kennethdale