Rough Draft submissions and vote thread

[kennethdale]

So for my background I main a Mara but my second most used toon is my jugg who is primarily a tank but is used for dps on occasion. The absolute biggest issue I see for juggs is the insane variance in the Rampage proc. If you get lucky your dps will skyrocket but otherwise you get stuck in a heartbreaking rut of watching Ravage CD naturally time after time. I've proposed a few different solutions and here ill compile them:

 

1) Give all damaging abilities a chance to proc Rampage. This would change the current system of waiting out the internal cd and simply using Ravage on Cd though it would require a lower overall proc chance.

 

2) Have the Rampage Talent decrease the cd on Ravage by 3/6/9 seconds AND gave a 30% chance on impale/shatter to increase damage done by 3.33%/6.67/10% for 10 seconds. This would allow us a lot more burst by both lowering the CD on Ravage AND giving us a procced burst window. This is my personal favorite.

 

As for the post made by Enarls, the entirety was too long-winded without any sort of focus or format, and they sounded very much like we are attacking the devs when we want to try to foster change not hinder it. Most importantly they weren't questions.

 

Here are my suggestions:

PvE -

The community has expressed a lot of concern regarding the variance of the Vengeance tree DPS. In particular, the issues seem to stem from the Rampage talent and its relation to the length of the cool downs on both Shatter and impale. Other proc based classes have either a much larger chance to obtain a proc than the 30% of Rampage or are able to use more abilities to obtain a proc than Juggernauts at this point. Because of this the DPS of the Vengeance tree can shift by large amounts (up to approximately 300-400 DPS in a given fight) based solely on how often a player received Rampage procs and how well-timed these procs were. As a result of this, many in the community feel that the stronger, more reliable DPS spec is Rage which as was referenced in your answers to the Jedi Sentinel questions is intended to be lower single target DPS but higher multi-target DPS. Is this variability of DPS in the Vengeance tree intended and are Juggernauts intended to use Rage for single-target DPS unlike Marauders/Sentinels?

 

PvP -

The community has significant concerns about the usefulness of Enraged Defenses particularly in DPS specs as all other DPS classes have a resource-free threat drop that in some cases (Marauders/Sentinels, Mercenaries/Commandos, Assassin/Shadow) provides significant utility on top of the threat drop without adding a cost. What is the reasoning behind providing Juggernauts with only a resource-intensive threat drop with the utility of a built-in heal and is there any intention to bring this threat drop more in line with other threat drop abilities?

 

General -

The community has noticed that while Juggernauts possess some of the strongest defensive cool down abilities we lack any sort of on demand damage increase ability. This can often lead to Juggernauts being viewed as lacking offensive utility in both PvP and PvE environments. Was giving Juggernauts a defensive only suite of cool downs an intentional decision and if so what role did the design and development teams envision Juggernaut DPS fulfilling in group environments?

Edited August 17, 2013 by kennethdale

[UncleOst]

The unfortunate part would be it would remove any burst we have for PvP. It would probably stabilize our dps PvE-wise though with a couple of changes.

 

As it stands, we have limited burst in pvp.

 

I decided to run a few warzones on the jug tonight, take a break from leveling. Each reg match was pretty much just me playing objectives, while the others went derping. Having said that, the numbers vengeance can put out, will always pale in comparison to rage....always.

 

I remember it was pretty sweet with the double proc power relics, for I stacked full crit, and relied on the power boost. (warzones were also ridiculous at that point). Vengeance is great with leading the charge and capatilizing on the cc immunity. You then can pick a target, and apply pressure. As it stands(competitively speaking), said target will either vanish, speed away, OR laugh with a shield, ignoring you.

 

I think the survivability granted with this spec in a pvp scenario, is best served in duels, or 1 vs 1 encounters within warzones. Is that mild supremecy in durability worthy over Rage? Currently, vengeance spec is my favorite for huttball, well aside from the obvious tank spec. Immortal rules in all aplications currently.

 

A closer look at the focus fire strats that more groups are utilizing within warzones, will reveal that either a vengeance or a rage juggernaut, will both die very easily. The threat from a rage jug is always more severe than a vengeance one.

 

I've played vengeance exclusively for months now. I've tested different power/crit ratios, they all turn out the same. I'm not sure I can discern much more from Vengeance in it's current state, for everything it can do...Rage spec can do better.

 

It also appears that there are no changes in effect for juggernaut gameplay with 2.4. That said, were you expecting changes to invigorate the spec? If so...you all had better find other another "outlet" for your "vengeance".

 

 

I have three freaking jugs.

 

 

It's time to enjoy some other classes. ciao

[ssfish]

It also appears that there are no changes in effect for juggernaut gameplay with 2.4. That said, were you expecting changes to invigorate the spec? If so...you all had better find other another "outlet" for your "vengeance".

 

 

I have three freaking jugs.

 

 

It's time to enjoy some other classes. ciao

 

Welcome to the club, though bear in mind that they only posted some of the 2.4 content to the PTS. No operations or PvE stuff was put on the PTS, so it is possible that more class stuff is forthcoming. (note: possible does not equal likely)

 

The unfortunate part would be it would remove any burst we have for PvP. It would probably stabilize our dps PvE-wise though with a couple of changes.

For true burst, Rage is the spec. We have"burst" in vengeance right now by only the widest confines of that term - a 12 second window of 4K-5K DPS.

Edited August 17, 2013 by ssfish

[ArenCordial]

 

For true burst, Rage is the spec. We have"burst" in vengeance right now by only the widest confines of that term - a 12 second window of 4K-5K DPS.

 

So very true.

[ArenCordial]

I posted this over Guardian side - Any of this look good/useable?

 

1.) Vengeance dps

General-The community currently feels there is too much reliance on RNG that can make the spec's dps range from average to good.

 

According to the top parsers http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=664980 the class is currently ranged third from the bottom, only beating out Assassins and non-hybrid Powertechs, both of which are currently considered broken by their communities and despite the fact that Vengeance is considered optimal for parsing by developers http://www.madsithassassin.com/2013/...interview.html.

 

For being the most melee oriented class in the game, it could stand to get a buff and have less reliance on luck especially considering many raid groups consider melee a liability simply mechanics wise and that's before most ranged dps out parse them. Would buffs/changes to Rampage and Seething Hatred be something to consider?

-------

 

2.) Cooldowns

The Juggernaut has expressed concern over its cooldowns for DPS builds.

 

-Defensive - Enraged Defense leaves us in an awkward position of being useful in PvP as a DR increase but in PvE it acts also as a costly threat dump. Would the devs consider either separating the abilities or acting similar to Taunts, acting different depending if you are in PvE or PvP?

 

-Offensive Cooldown - Unlike the other classes in the game Juggernauts lack an Offensive Cooldown of any kind. What this an unintentional oversight? What is the rational here?

-------

 

3.) Raid Utility

Many in the Juggernaut community feel we don't bring much to a raid group as DPS. As it stand in SWTOR it seems for the most part this is how classes are treated utility wise.

 

Single Role DPS - Gets raid wide utility powers and droid cc.

Stealth Classes - Get stealth CC and rez (plus some of whatever other role they fulfill)

Off-Heals - Get CC, off-heals, and rez

Off-Tank - Gets taunts, improved Damage Reduction stance, and armor reduction or grapple.

 

Many have found Taunts and Improved Damage Reduction stances rarely see use, sometimes going months between use. Armor Reduction is easily found in a variety of classes and specs and our Powertech's brethren see little use for Grapples. Is there something the devs can do or consider to bring the off-tank dps classes (Guardian, Juggernaut, Vanguard, and Powertech) to improve our use and chances to join to a raid group, whether progression or pug.

 

----

I included that last bit with Powertechs because they are basically in the same boat as us, and as much as I love Juggs I don't want special treatment.

[SkiaTheShade]

I'm going to speak to the PVP question here, because I don't PVE often enough to feel qualified to make a suggestion.

 

2 things come to mind. Group utility and offensive cooldowns.

 

My concern is that we might not be bringing up a big issue, we don't bring enough group utility to warrant taking a DPS Juggernaut over a Marauder. Enraged Defense is definitely useless for Immortal and Rage, but I think a bigger issue is our lack of purpose in a ranked PVP environment. Immortal/tank Juggernauts are very sought after in ranked PVP, but DPS is not. Do you guys think that our question should be oriented more around that or Enraged Defense? Honestly, I know I'm not an expert so I just want to bring it up.

 

The other thought is that we don't have any offensive cooldowns at all, why?

Edited August 17, 2013 by SkiaTheShade

[ArenCordial]

I'm going to speak to the PVP question here, because I don't PVE often enough to feel qualified to make a suggestion.

 

2 things come to mind. Group utility and offensive cooldowns.

 

My concern is that we might not be bringing up a big issue, we don't bring enough group utility to warrant taking a DPS Juggernaut over a Marauder. Enraged Defense is definitely useless for Immortal and Rage, but I think a bigger issue is our lack of purpose in a ranked PVP environment. Immortal/tank Juggernauts are very sought after in ranked PVP, but DPS is not. Do you guys think that our question should be oriented more around that or Enraged Defense? Honestly, I know I'm not an expert so I just want to bring it up.

 

The other thought is that we don't have any offensive cooldowns at all, why?

 

Its been mentioned.

[EnalisNailo]

The thing with Enraged Defense is, as you all saw I devoted a good chunk of my wall of text to the issue, that until we are either a consistant DPS or an extreme burst DPS, we really don't need a threat drop. In a NiM, or even an HM group that is properly geared, the Vengeance or Rage juggernaut will almost never be ripping single target threat off a boss their tank is going on, even going full balls to the wall with S.Assault, Boundless Ages, and an Adrenal. What use will a functioning threat drop have, if we simply arent capable of getting into a situation where we need to use.

 

The Vengeance community needs to reeally decide I think, what it wants to be, Vengeance is this wierd mashup of potential burst and potential sustained damage. Many of our changes for Vengeance support sustained damage as the vast majority of Vengeance players come from PvE background, utilizing the rage generation and impressive possible single target damage they can bring to bear. That is why many of our rampage changes support further enhancing sustaining damage and consistency. I think it's safe to say that many of us feel, if you want real burst damage, go Rage spec.

 

And to further clarify upon the offensive CD issue-

 

You can even further argue that only Vengeance has no offensive CD, rage spec gets talents that not only drasticly lower the CD of enrage, but also makes rage give shcokwave on use, hence the reason Rage actually can reliably "burst". Vengeance is truly the only DPS without any sort of offensive CD outside of relics and adrenals.

[LordBeeDoO]

PVP Question:

 

- There have been some concerns with the current applications of "Enraged Defense". Immortal tanks perceive it as useless, Vengeance Jugs absolutely love it, and Rage Jugs are indifferent. We realize you've linked the existing abilities for our benefit generically speaking. However we the Jug community, would like to see more specific applications of this ability, intrinsic to each tree. Additionally, we would ask for separate "threat dumps". Once again, the Vengeance tree has a beautiful synergy with Enraged Defense within its spec. Would you create unique and featable options for Enraged Defense within the Rage and Immortal trees?

 

I have just note to this part, as discussions a lot were transfered towards DPS value of the skill. Please do not forget to inculde the concern about the PVE tanking point, where this skill is very badly usable - only in some situations and taking a large chance of failure and wipe - that for very small advantage. Simple heal without threat drop while in Soresu form would be at least something.

Edited August 17, 2013 by LordBeeDoO

[EnalisNailo]

I have just note to this part, as discussions a lot were transfered towards DPS value of the skill. Please do not forget to inculde the concern about the PVE tanking point, where this skill is very badly usable - only in some situations and taking a large chance of failure and wipe - that for very small advantage. Simple heal without threat drop while in Soresu form would be at least something.

 

Honestly Juggernaut tanking does not need another defensive CD. They already have more than their counter part tanks, arguably better ones too. Juggernaut tanks are already accused of being overpowered by some, adding an additional CD ontop of that will only fan those fires. Enraged Defense must keep it's threat drop.

 

@UncleOST- You are correct about Vengeance being a pressure player in PvP. Back in 2.0, while still considered subpar by many, I was still able to consistantly out perform as Vengeance compared to when I played Rage. Before 2.0 the way the damage and healing makeup was, if a Vengeance player singled out a healer, it effectively shut down that healer, when bubble burst hybrid healers where still around Veng DPS and Veng Hybrid tanks where the only melee classes that could take down bubblebursters. The pressure that could be put on healers back then was amazing, they either died trying to keep others up, or simply locked up and kept themselves alive, not able to do much of anything else. 2.0 changed all this, heals got far stronger. The nerf to pooled hatred also hurt way way way back in the early days.

Edited August 17, 2013 by EnalisNailo

[UncleOst]

I have just note to this part, as discussions a lot were transfered towards DPS value of the skill. Please do not forget to inculde the concern about the PVE tanking point, where this skill is very badly usable - only in some situations and taking a large chance of failure and wipe - that for very small advantage. Simple heal without threat drop while in Soresu form would be at least something.

 

I apologize, for the question you quoted, I had intended it as a pve question. To prove a point about how the disassembly and revamp of Enraged Defense (same as Rampage), would benefit both pvp and pve, I had simply switched the original question domains.

 

Honestly when I've tanked in pvp, the heal (with or without Endure Pain activated), is really good. I even have tanking videos displaying how I relied on the self-heal religiously. So for clarification, in my opinion, Enraged Defence is not useless for Immortal pvp at all. The point was "where do we go" with the specific permissions and limitations of the "new" enraged defense. I had suggested when feated then activated in Immortal, the perk would be sharing the "Rule of Two" speed buff to both tank and guarded targets. This would be coupled with the heal.

 

Asking for unique applications of enraged defense when feated in the seperate trees was our original request. It pains me to say that this may be a fruitless endeavour, but I look forward to the developer's response regarding Enraged defense.

[Luckygunslinger]

I have just note to this part, as discussions a lot were transfered towards DPS value of the skill. Please do not forget to inculde the concern about the PVE tanking point, where this skill is very badly usable - only in some situations and taking a large chance of failure and wipe - that for very small advantage. Simple heal without threat drop while in Soresu form would be at least something.

 

As a Juggernaut tank who is clearing NiM Content, I can say, personally, Enraged Defense is NOT an issue for us. In SOME situations it becomes viable, but only some, and that's enough. BIGGEST issue of Immortal Juggernauts is the 4 piece set bonus for PVE, it's terrible. Requesting Enraged Defense be catered to us is like asking the Stealth Out for Assassins be viable for the tanks, allowing them to hold aggro and cheat boss mechanics.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Luckygunslinger

[idnewton]

You touched on this a little bit in the PvP question, but not in the right way, I don't believe. Enraged defense is awful. In PvP it's probably somewhat useful, but in PvE it's devastating. If you have any kind of DoT on you, you're done. Pop it, and it'll keep sucking your rage away from you no matter what you do. I'd be better off to just stop dpsing entirely! I'm really getting tired of pulling aggro and tanks asking me why I didn't use my aggro drop, and me having to explain each time just how stupid the ability really is.

 

I'd prefer it to be redesigned just like the sniper's or sorcerer's. Just a simple ability that drops threat, nothing more. That, or keep the effect and take out the rage cost. Maybe keep the initial one, but definitely do away with the extra rage it's taking away from players when they take damage. If a dps has aggro, there should never be a reason to not use their aggro drop. For Juggernauts, there is. Fix it.

[Marb]

There seems to be this outcry for some sort of unique group utility that the jugg can bring to an op. I would resist such a change only because of the precedent it will set for all the other dps classes that aren't snipers and marauders.

 

I would much rather they aggressively balance the dps output of all the dps classes to be much closer to each other, and let the sniper and mara keep their unique group utility. I see bloodthirst and sniper bubble as being the payoff for those classes only being able to spec for dps. The balance is thrown out the window with the fact that these classes bring this unique utility AND are in a tier of their own in the dps they bring to an operation group.

 

Let them keep their group buffs, but give all the dps classes relatively equivalent damage output.

[Darth_Dreselus]

I see the general question be a bit of a waste since, if the sniper answers are anything to go by the answer is going to be something like "There are no plans at the moment but we may consider it in the future". Better to stick to actual issues (which granted Juggs do not have many of). Edited August 18, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

[ssfish]

I see the general question be a bit of a waste since, if the sniper answers are anything to go by the answer is going to be something like "There are no plans at the moment but we may consider it in the future". Better to stick to actual issues (which granted Juggs do not have many of).

 

Maybe not "many," but the ones that are there are quite significant.

[kennethdale]

Here are my suggestions for actual questions:

 

-PvE-

The community has expressed a lot of concern regarding the variance of the Vengeance tree DPS. In particular, the issues seem to stem from the Rampage talent and its relation to the length of the cool downs on both Shatter and impale. Other proc based classes have either a much larger chance to obtain a proc than the 30% of Rampage or are able to use more abilities more often to obtain a proc than Juggernauts at this point. Because of this the DPS of the Vengeance tree can shift by large amounts (up to approximately 300-400 DPS in a given fight) based solely on how often a player received Rampage procs and how well-timed these procs were. As a result of this, many in the community feel that the stronger, more reliable DPS spec is Rage which as was referenced in your answers to the Jedi Sentinel questions is intended to be lower single target DPS but higher multi-target DPS. Is this variability of DPS in the Vengeance tree intended and are Juggernauts intended to use Rage for single-target DPS unlike Marauders/Sentinels?

 

Things to check on: Is my figure of 300-400 DPS variance accurate? I chose to make this the PvE questions because while it does also significantly affect PvP in terms of the current burst and changes that might occur, the current ramifications seem most prevalent only in PvE. Some suggestions about how Rampage might be fixed are at the bottom of the post in Orange.

 

-PvP-

The community has significant concerns about the usefulness of Enraged Defenses particularly in PvP as all other DPS classes have a resource-free threat drop that in many cases (Marauders/Sentinels, Mercenaries/Commandos, Assassin/Shadow, Operatives/Scoundrels) provides significant utility on top of the threat drop without adding a cost. What is the reasoning behind providing Juggernauts with only a resource-intensive threat drop with the utility of a built-in heal which as long as in effect continues to drain resources and is there any intention to bring this threat drop and attached utility more in line with other similar abilities?

 

Things to check on: Are there any other classes I missed that have utility attached to their threat-drop? Does the PvP community feel that there is a better focus for this question or a better wording? I do not PvP on my Jugg so I took this solely from the things I noticed being brought up by PvPers.

 

-General-

The community has noticed that while Juggernauts possess some of the strongest defensive cool down abilities we lack any sort of on demand damage increase ability. This can often lead to Juggernauts being viewed as lacking offensive utility in both PvP and PvE environments. Was giving Juggernauts a defensive only suite of cool downs an intentional decision and if so what role did the design and development teams envision Juggernaut DPS fulfilling in group environments?

 

I honestly do not feel that this is the best use of this question but as it seems to be a good middle-ground between those who want more utility and those who want Juggs to simply be more viable. At the very least this question would get us a definite answer to the question of where the devs see us in both PvE and PvP since at the moment it seems our role is rather odd. Listed below are the ways I have seen Juggs utilized in both PvE and PvP Content:

• Immortal Spec - PvE Tank Gear (Tank)
  
• Immortal Spec - PvP Tank Gear (Tank)
  
• Immortal Spec - PvP DPS Gear (Hybrid Tank/DPS)
  
• Vengeance Spec - PvE DPS Gear (DPS/Offtank)
  
• Vengeance Spec - PvP DPS Gear (PvP DPS/Offtank)
  
• Rage Spec - PvE Gear (DPS)
  
• Rage Spec - PvP Gear (DPS)
  

This is an odd smattering. Given that in the Sentinel answers the devs specifically noted that Rage should be lower in single-target, which it is, one would not think of it as a raid viable spec but as is apparent from the very long thread in this very forum Rage Vs Vengeance for PvE (something like that) its clear that unlike for Marauders, the answer is not so clear cut and this is in direct relation to the variability of Rampage. This is something the Devs need to clear up beause on top of that Rage Juggernauts are not as desirable for PvP as Rage Marauders in spite of the slightly more potent Smash and armor debuff, Marauders simply bring more utility.

 

1) Give all damaging abilities a chance to proc Rampage. This would change the current system of waiting out the internal cd and simply using Ravage on Cd though it would require a lower overall proc chance.

 

2) Have the Rampage Talent decrease the cd on Ravage by 3/6/9 seconds AND gave a 30% chance on impale/shatter to increase damage done by 3.33%/6.67/10% for 10 seconds. This would allow us a lot more burst by both lowering the CD on Ravage AND giving us a procced burst window. This is my personal favorite.

 

Thats all I have to say, color-coded to make it easy to pick apart and to make it pop.

[UncleOst]

 

PVP

 

The community has significant concerns about the usefulness of Enraged Defenses particularly in PvP as all other DPS classes have a resource-free threat drop that in many cases (Marauders/Sentinels, Mercenaries/Commandos, Assassin/Shadow, Operatives/Scoundrels) provides significant utility on top of the threat drop without adding a cost. What is the reasoning behind providing Juggernauts with only a resource-intensive threat drop with the utility of a built-in heal which as long as in effect continues to drain resources and is there any intention to bring this threat drop and attached utility more in line with other similar abilities?

 

 

hehe.

 

It would appear that you do not pvp. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but we should perhaps rest on this. Our rep has stated he'll be submitting questions shortly.

[Marb]

hehe.

 

It would appear that you do not pvp. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but we should perhaps rest on this. Our rep has stated he'll be submitting questions shortly.

 

You can't bring up enraged defense without mentioning the threat drop component (its our only threat drop). I think its reasonable to merge it, even if the primary concern is its use as a defensive cooldown in PvP. For example:

 

PvP) Enraged Defense is a strange ability, as it is one of the few (only?) defensive / threat management cooldowns in the game that costs resources to use. As a defensive cooldown, the small healing over time effect seems trivial, and the rage cost disproportionate. Many Juggernauts look to other melee classes and wonder why we have to spend so much of our resource to grant a small reactive heal on an ability with a 1 minute cooldown.

 

The heal and threat drop comes with a rage cost that's potentially so severe, that it leaves Juggernauts in a position where they have to (counter-intuitively) sacrifice their dps in order to incrementally heal and lower their threat while *being attacked*. In contrast, many dps classes can simply use their defensive cooldown / threat drop ability and continue pumping out damage at lightspeed with no costs of any kind involved.

 

Would the team consider revamping Enraged Defense into a more compelling defensive cooldown and threat management tool?

 

 

For the last question there seems to be a few strong candidates. Do we want the general question to cover a tank specific question for the sake of fairness?. If not, tank specific questions could be transplanted to the Guard rep pve/general questions. As we are up first, the answers to our questions will no doubt influence what their questions end up being.

 

Low priority, jugg tank specific concerns:

 

• Blade Turning bug and our pathetic 4p set bonus.
  
• Generating ranged threat and our heavy reliance on Saber Reflect to do so.
  
• Vulnerability to knockbacks and snares (related to ranged threat issues too).
  
• Having to spend rage and a GCD to apply a snare.
  

 

And the big one:

Lack of competitive group utility in an operation environment. This has a very strong potential for a non-answer from Bioware because of its general nature, but it is probably the most pressing concern for all dps classes that aren't marauders and snipers atm. I would throw my chips in with ssfish for our general question, even though I don't agree that Powertechs, Assassins and Operatives actually provide any more group utility when strictly compared to dps Juggernauts (at least we bring an armor debuff). The marauder/sniper master race has really gone on for too long, with no clarification from Bioware about where the rest of the dps classes are supposed to fit in. At present they are kings of ranged and melee damage, and provide indispensable group utility in a progression raiding environment.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Marb

[ssfish]

If I said or implied that PTs and Sins had more/better group utility, that was unintended. Sins have the ability to stealth rez, as do Ops. PTs are on par with Juggs in pure damage, bu Juggs have the edge for armor debuff, except that it is usually a redundant ability. Sins need help, no doubt about that, but we need to look after our own first.

 

Operatives have some of the highest damage potential in the game, so thier utility is irrelevant.

[Thundernuts]

PVP Question:

 

- There have been some concerns with the current applications of "Enraged Defense". Immortal tanks perceive it as useless, Vengeance Jugs absolutely love it, and Rage Jugs are indifferent. We realize you've linked the existing abilities for our benefit generically speaking. However we the Jug community, would like to see more specific applications of this ability, intrinsic to each tree. Additionally, we would ask for separate "threat dumps". Once again, the Vengeance tree has a beautiful synergy with Enraged Defense within its spec. Would you create unique and featable options for Enraged Defense within the Rage and Immortal trees?

 

I think this is a great question. I only play Immortal/Defense and the only thing I would like to see for me, is adding a root/slow cleanse to the ability. It should still drop threat for us, because let's face, we have awesome defensive CD's. But it is a useless ability for the most part, but if we could get a root/slow cleanse attached, that would make the ability worthwhile for the tank side of things.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Thundernuts

[MarkXXIV]

Push for vengeance being an optimal pvp spec!!!

[ssfish]

If I said or implied that PTs and Sins had more/better group utility, that was unintended. Sins have the ability to stealth rez, as do Ops. PTs are on par with Juggs in pure damage, bu Juggs have the edge for armor debuff, except that it is usually a redundant ability. Sins need help, no doubt about that, but we need to look after our own first.

 

Operatives have some of the highest damage potential in the game, so their utility is irrelevant.

Edited August 20, 2013 by ssfish

[Marb]

Operatives have some of the highest damage potential in the game, so thier utility is irrelevant.

 

That is really the crux of the issue. To me, operatives are exactly where they should be in relation to snipers and marauders, and its where we should be too. Every single dps class should be directly competitive with snipers and marauders.

 

Bloodthirst and Sniper bubble is enough of a reason to bring those classes. I don't think "utility" like this is what we need, because that would be impeding on the niche these two specialized dps AC's have. There isn't supposed to be a hybrid tax, but these classes should bring a unique buff due to being *locked* into dps with no alternatives.

 

We just need reliably equivalent dps to these classes, any other perceived utility to the group should just be extra flavor, and not a direct consideration for balancing purposes.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Marb

[MarkXXIV]

I hope vengeance stops sucking in pvp soon. Rage is boring. Edited August 21, 2013 by MarkXXIV